Is Gender Diversity In Games wrong?

It irks me, what can I say? I don't understand people who say "oh another white male". I find it derogatory and weird, even more so when it's coming from a white person. This extends to my personal feelings about representation: I can't imagine my race or sex being represented in a video game as mattering in any way, I don't think this is because I am white, I just don't have that emotional connection.

My taste is plenty eclectic. I recently watched every Takeshi Kitano movie and I'm a big fan of asian cinema, last year was a K-Horror binge, one of the highlights being The Wailing, Train to Busan gets a big thumbs up too. I am not someone that spends all their time consuming only white media and wanting everything to be in English, if that's what you mean.

I'm fortunate enough to spend a lot of time amongst Japanese so the intertwining of culture and being outside of my comfort zone experiencing new foods, traditions and nuances is most certainly no issue for me.

Unlike some of the Polygon hacks who would argue a white man in Japanese dress is cultural appropriation, the Japanese at my university encourage taking part in their traditions. It's literally written on the exchange program to do that.

Maybe malice is the wrong word but I'm kind of sick of "white male" being used as a synonym for "this person has a worthless opinion and has had the world handed to them on a plate" That's totally the impression I get from some articles and people.

The part you are missing of the "oh another white male" statement is the "another" part. Your opinion isn't worthless, it has just been shared, written, filmed, scripted, played, sung, and otherwise expressed millions upon millions of times before you decided to open your mouth. This is literally the fundamental basis of this discussion: there are enough white people being heard and shown. Now it is time to fund and listen to projects about, by, and starring minorities. If you have any problems with accepting that you don't need to say anything right now because someone just like you has already said it, then check your ego.

Now is the time? Hmm...so what am I meant to do with my Run DMC and NWA vinyl discography?

I guess I'm a visionary...

That's fine.

My personal problem with this issue is with people who when there is a conflict between diversity of character models and diversity of experiences choose the diversity of character models (or rather criticize its lack).

Try again with two black video game characters from the 80's who you feel made an enormous impact on popular culture.

(And maybe NWA was a poor choice if you're trying to say that minority voices were well-received in the 80's.)

To be honest I can't even name a white character from the 80s video games who made an impact on popular culture, the graphics were so limited to the point it barely mattered, Big Boss?

I'm not saying anything about how NWA were received, just that yeah, I've kind of bought a lot of media from or starring minorities without even thinking about it for a very long time.

There's a certain person in this thread that people should be ignoring, because if you were around for the short-lived political threads, you would understand he is pretty hateful and not worth paying attention to.

Ignore the trolls.

How very tolerant of you.

<3

Michael Jordan and Larry Bird from the seminal Jordan vs Bird: One on One. Your move.

#Gotem

@kcin: Bullshit, that's a deliberate straw man. Like video games haven't been developed in japan, and that was also not the only argument I gave. Media is an expression of the people who make it, as you've just admitted to. Berry Jenkins, being black, is far more likely to make films about black people, the same goes for Nicolas Winding Refn he makes movies about white people primarily because hes white. Dont be a deliberate blockhead, you are denigrating both painting and other art forms here. You're argument even plays into one of my points, games are a shallow art form devoid of auteurship, these impacts negatively on the quality of their expression. The idea that the color of characters skin is even a problem to you is fairly absurd. Do you think this while watching a bollywood film? or do you accept it as an appropriate expression of their reality? You pine that due to the collaborative nature of development and the commercial nature of games that they always must include white people? This is frankly ridiculous, and has no basis for argumentation because you've provided no points. You merely stated that too many whites are in games, that's quite racist of you.

@planetfunksquad: The unabashed hypocrisy laden in this remark is deeply troubling.

If you're talking about me you're hilariously off base I am afraid, despite getting in a bit of a mood when people call VR a dumb fad, I am a very tolerant and light hearted person.

(I came to that conclusion because I seem to inadvertently create a stir in such threads)

@makayu: not really. I don't expect British people to write about india, but I do expect them to write about British people of Indian decent considering they make up a sizeable chunk of the population. It's not hard my dude.

Come to realize it, a lot of people seem to talk past each other (arguments between individual standpoints vs. systemic opression for instance), I think both sides at least try to make a point here but its somewhat obfuscated by all the "opinionating" and I have no idea how to combat such a thing.

@ericsmith: Woah there buddy, slow down there. Nobody even went there yet. Its pretty of hateful for you too to incite a nonsense discussion about "who could be a bad dude" without even stating who they are. If anything you're right now detrimental to the rather polite discussion people are having here right now.

@wynnduffy@namoo: That might be me or everyone else here for that matter, lol.

EDIT: Added a few bits and pieces.

@makayu: lol bye

The very fact that you think this is about you proving how much you like black culture is so terrifically unsurprising. Why? Because this is how defensive, egocentric white dudes always respond to discussion around white overrepresentation: "not ALL MEN. Not me!" Cool dude. Not you. That doesn't change the discussion, nor does it change the critique. The exception challenges the rule, it doesn't break it. I also love black culture, but here I am, ready and willing to admit that my perspective is not unique, special, or as yet unheard, and I don't need to jump out and say "but not me!!!!" whenever someone expresses displeasure with the ubiquity of whiteness and masculinity.

No one is talking about you.

In general, no. Diversity in game protagonists is good, as long as it makes sense in the setting and the story you are trying to tell. If you are setting a game in realistic feudal Japan, I would like an explanation why a woman is the biggest badass around, as having a black protagonist in a Caribbean setting during the XIX century would have to address the elephant in the room.

The only example of diversity "being forced" into a game developer I can think of was Assassins Creed Unity. When asked why the afterthought of a coop mode did not have character customization or female characters, the developers gave the answer that it would cost them much more money to redo all animation and voice acting for the extra body types that most people would not see, and the world was up in arms about it: with reasons like "a woman moves exactly the same as a man, so there shouldn't be any extra work", which were, honestly, misinformed at best.

@maginnovision: the recording in 2005 where he brags about sexual assault, yes. With the amount of sexual assault in high schools and colleges i wouldn't doubt you heard worse shit in your middle school locker room, not sure how that makes it ok though?

@kcin: I like NWA and Run DMC because of the music, not because I needed them as proof I'm not a racist.

I brought them up because you made it sound like I need to support black artists now, when buddy, I've been doing that subconsciously for a long time.

Stop projecting, thanks!

Its basic business reality. This major product you are pumping millions and millions of dollars into needs to appeal to the biggest consumer base first, other groups second to maximise its chances of success. Surprise surprise the western videogame consumer base is predominantly white and male. Large companies are insanely risk averse in this day and age. Its just cold hard numbers at the end of the day.

you are still talking about yourself

@odinsmana: This is a fair viewpoint but it basically comes down to us having to set a bar to reach, and the top level stuff is a good place to start. The industry has made great strides but this top level stuff hasn't been reached. The industry hasn't even been that good at creating complex white heterosexual male characters: Fixing this may lead to better stories in the short term, but increasing diversity will at least increase inclusion which would lead to more people making games (and hopefully better stories in the long term).

Honestly, I'd like to see a greater diversity in the leads of large studios making games with greater mobility to those positions from many backgrounds. I want to see successful studios around the world, especially in the Americas (outside US and Canada) and Africa who have ever-growing gaming audiences, with very small development industries. I want to see more higher budget European games that aren't just subsidiaries of juggernauts like EA and Ubisoft. I want to see better contextualisation of Religion in games, both the concepts of original ones, and the true beliefs and nuances of real-world ones (even Christianity is poorly described in games - arguably more prevalent as iconography in Japanese games than serious representations from believers). I want an industry that consistently makes good games for children, not hell-bent on building games to sell accessories to parents. We need very feminine games that treat their audience with respect instead of creating games that are essentially popular genres... but this time in pink. Ideally, regardless of the identies of the cast, characters should have complex motivations, but most games don't even achieve that.

@wynnduffy: Quotes from the so-called "tolerant" wynnduffy:

"The malice against white people has been happening across all forms of media in recent years so there's not really much need to limit this to just games."

"If a developer is making a big deal out of having a diverse cast then that shit is tacky and I don't like it."

"People should read this before listening to the likes of CNN & Huff Post's headlines. (http://www.nationalreview.com/article/444370/donald-trump-refugee-executive-order-no-muslim-ban-separating-fact-hysteria)"

"And why the fuck was there people in the women's marches who were FOR Islam (specifically Sharia Law)?????????????"

Anyway, thanks @ericsmith for prompting me to look into this dude's comments. wynnduffy, you disgrace the character Jere Burns so wonderfully played on Justified. Whether you're a troll or a right wing useful idiot, I'm done listening to you. Goodbye.

@kcin: If you don't want me to talk about myself then maybe you shouldn't quote me and make it look like I needed to bring up black music as evidence of something.

You are my hero! i don't know how you have the energy to discuss this stuff when you are going to be called all the names under the sun soon enough.

Keep up the good work!

@darth_navster: so you think Sharia law activists belong in a women's march? Buddy, do you know anything about women's rights under Sharia law?

Why was I insulted...Tell yourself whatever you like, you're the hateful one.

hahahahahhah thanks dude

I think in an ideal world we could have a minority protagonist for a game with a forgettable story and average gameplay. I personally would like to see more leading roles for Asian people, especially Indians, as they are grossly under represented in media. Like what makes Nathan Drake a white dude, I want a Sikh Nathan Drake.

Well that didn't take long to go off the rails. Everyone go take a walk, we're done here.