Narrative Battle: Wolfenstein vs NieR Automata

(Do use spoiler tag if you need to spoil something to make a point: but I guess many would have played this 2 games by now...)

(Oh and in case you didn't know: The Game Awards nominees were out.)

Automata isn't really a story about surprises, it's a story where the characters and the plot are used to explore its themes, and in that regard it excels tremendously. It also effortlessly blends serious moments with its goofier moments (like Romeos And Juliets aka the funniest thing I've seen in a game) together, while honestly I feel Wolf2 I feel is at odds with its seriousness vs goofiness (just my opinion, I think the game is pretty great overall).

I haven't beaten Wolf2 yet but I have incredibly high doubts that its narrative will culminate in something as powerful as Automata's Ending E, which was one of the most powerful moments I've played in a game.

All in all, Automata is my GOTY by a large margin, even against BOTW (I like but not love), Odyssey (I love) and Wolf2 (I really like).

There have been a lot of great stories told by video games this year that nobody mentiones, I'm quite confliced. Nier isn't even the best story told by a game this year. As an example, I've been playing through Hollow Knight and the way it presents the story to the player while linking that to the exploration aspects of the game is way better than in Dark Souls (also the story in general just seems better). I'm sure there are a whole ton of games that tell great stories that nobody talks about. Anyway...

Wolfenstein is very sensible in knowing what it does and what it tries to tell the player, while still being very humorous and self aware. The ending feels lackluster and bad, while the whole game still is great.

Nier: AM is more akin to a video game critique and its all over the place in regards to this. The ending is great, or even amazing if you find it relateable for you. It goes the same for me, if you watched enough Anime in your life, the game isn't even that suprising. Not to mention that the ending of the first Nier does bear the same message. As a game, I like Platinums presentation of over-the-top swordplay way more refined than the simplistic gunplay in Wolfenstein however.

Storywise, my vote goes to Wolfenstein because its not only more direct and cohesive in its message, but it subverts a very serious issue into a funny one while still being respectful and serious in the way it presents itself. Kinda like a good moral you hear in a childrens fable, but for adults instead. Its a fine balance in tone you need to walk in order to create such a story, and in the case of Wolfenstein it succeeds.

Theres a lot more going on that most people realize when it comes to Wolfenstein, too. Let me explain one example.

It respects german history by placing the onus-of-evil directly into the hands of the Nazis instead of the bulk millitary force (historically, the Wehrmacht didn't like the SA/SS at all at first, they were almost wholly assimilated by the Nazi propaganda machinary, enemies in game are only carrying SS insignias). With this in mind, it goes further and tries to explain on how Americans can still be down to the idea of assimilating Fascism on the civilian scale, kinda like what has happened to the real life german Wehrmacht before the second World War. Its a pretty great allegory, especially for an Nazi-killing FPS.

A handy wikipedia link to check the insignias on the Nazis/Enemies you killed in the game

What I mean is that you can absolutely see civilians of all countries being down to the Nazi ideology in the same vain the Wehrmacht, who were against the nature of the SS, being assimilated in a strictly aggressive propagandistic way. Something the Nazis are well known about. And the game still does tackle that very real part of history in a sensitive because it provides such an allegory in a sensitive fashion. Not to mention its just one specific example on how Wolfenstein handles itself as a video game.

Of course theres a whole lot going on when it comes to Blazkowicz perspective. Kotaku has a great article in regards to this.

Theres a whole lot more going on than people seem to realize and thats more than you can say about Nier, which is pretty much rubbing its story in the players face so much it became less fun the longer I played, at least for me it did. And considering its ending I've found the first Nier to be better.

So all in all, my vote goes to Wolfensteins story but only because it does some things I prefer more, like actually hitting the sweet spot regarding a a couple of sensitive topics that go hand in hand with the controverse setting.

I mean if you are putting a lot of weight in twists and turns then sure it's Wolfenstein.

But for actual story being told and themes explored gimme Nier forever and always.

Nier by a very large margin.

Wolfenstein: The New Colossus is a fantastic video game with a great narrative. But comparing it to Nier is doing it a genuine disservice.

We're not gonna' get another Nier: Automata for some time. Even if they do end up throwing money at Yoko Taro after this, he'll do something different, albeit probably real depressing. Automata will remain unique in it's medium. Not just for the story it tells, but because it is one of the few instances of story-telling in games where the gameplay aspect is essential to the story, and what it wants to convey. You, as a person, matter in it. It is one of very few games that really feel like they're fully utilizing its medium.

Also, if you can't tell, I REALLY like Nier: Automata.

Writing this post-script: I like Wolf a whole lot. But Nier is my GOTY guaranteed. So, I'm applying the Vinny GOTY clause here. Anything said about Wolfenstein should be taken in the context that I thought it was terrific in its own right.

For me, it's not even a contest. Nier, 100%. Oddly, I would say the same thing you said of Nier, about Wolfenstein. I didn't necessarily see it all coming, but I was surprised that the "thing everyone was talking about" near the end of the game was what it was. It was underwhelming, but not in the way I thought it would be, as in it was still entertaining but with a strong sense of "oh... this isn't at all what I thought this was going to be." I was expecting an earth shaking development which resonated through that game's world. That is absolutely not what I got.

I think that game's first half is far stronger than its finish - in gameplay and storytelling - and I know that's probably controversial to say. I thought Nier was pretty stable throughout.

Of course, I say that knowing Nier is my GOTY and I knew that pretty much as soon as I finished it. From listening to the Waypoint Niercast, I gather that myself and Alex have nearly identical feelings on how that game affected us and spoke to our personal tastes and emotions. Nier is just too much "my shit" for anything else to topple it. So, perhaps having Wolf pre-hyped before playing it gave me heightened expectations about what KIND of twist was coming. Regardless, I still think it was a great experience.

It's easily Nier for reasons much better communicated by other people in this thread, but I am 100% sure Giant Bomb will give "Best Story" to Wolfenstein and I'll be angry and bitter about it for like, a whole hour.

@teddie: I'd usually be right there with you, pessimism ahoy! But between both Alex and Ben pushing for Nier, as well as Vinny having finished it, I reckon it'll get best narrative at the very least. As for GOTY, I don't know, PUBG for 'em probably...?

Nah it's gonna be shouted down by the way it is structured and the strength of individual Wolfenstein moments will be played up.

I predict a lot of 'Fine you're wrong but whatever' in Niers goty future.

I haven’t played Nier but the idea of Wolfenstein winning any kind of narrative award is pretty silly to me. There are at least two fantastic moments in Wolfenstein and there’s a lot of dumb fun in there but there’s nothing in that game that sticks with you beyond “that was funny” or “that was crazy that they went there.” I would go as far as to say that I was kind of disappointed in the story in Wolfenstein though that probably has more to do with other people hyping it up as something it wasn’t trying to be. Nier, from the way people talk about it, seems to have a lot more going on as far as its storytelling goes.

One thing I will add that Nier does better than Wolfenstein is its ending(s). It's something Yoko Taro cares a lot about and prioritise in his writing workflow; and if you look at different Japanese media, many authors do tend to structure plots in such a fashion.

I didn't feel the same emotion height many got from Ending E, though, given Yoko Taro liked Undertale (not sure he managed to play it to completion) and pretty much pulled a similar trick.

(IF you are interested, I wrote a piece analysing Nier ending design and similar design element other game had used; sadly it's in Chinese, so I linked to Google Translate)

Yo where Edith Finch at?

I will defend Wolfenstein narrative in 2 ways:

1. No AAA title have managed to put nazism in its place eloquently: it normalises fascism and integrates tightly with whatever culture you have got. The latter part is seldom explored, most of the time you got Bioshock, where you have a city built from ground up following an ideology and turned into hell; not a normal city being actively changed by an external force, and maintain a shell of law and order.

2. Few AAA series have managed to "remake" a bland protagonist: BJ really was all about killing nazi and not much else before recent releases.

Wolfenstein had some cool moments but it was just another game that shoves an antagonist in your face and ends when they die, regardless of the state of the world or the overall story. Much like a Far Cry game I was just left with the thought "Okay they're dead, now what? I win? Great." If we're going by cool moments and glory killing an antagonist i'd say even MGS V had a better story than Wolfenstein TNC.

Nier was all over the place and structured rather weirdly but it was interesting and had a resolution, however crazy it was.

@df: Oh hey even though your blogpost went through google translate it still was an interesting read, looks like google got better at translating certain things in certain languages. Thanks for sharing it with us duder.

Wolfenstein and it's not even close. Nier is pretty pedestrian.

I finished both and it's a very hard decision. I do agree we won't get another Nier for a while, but I don't know if that justifies it's story being better than Wolfenstein.

To think about the side stuff, Nier has substantial side-quests, whereas Wolfenstein does not. Nier has side quests that give that world and the main narrative some nice context, and so for that I vote Nier. Also, Nier doesn't sequal-bait as much as Wolfenstein 2. But other than that I won't argue against Wolfenstein.

Both stories are really great and go places many games have not in the past (at least not this well), but I ended up going with Wolfenstein. I was simply on the edge of my seat for almost the entire game in a way I have not been in quite some time. The game just doesn't fucking let up, ever. I have never seen a game pull off so much crazy, insane shit while still telling me a story I was genuinely interested. Not to mention they fleshed out and made me genuinely care about BJ fucking Blaskowitz.

Having not totally finished Nier yet (I've gotten part way through the second playthrough), I'm going to say Wolfenstein for right now. And to be honest, I don't see that changing even when I do get around to seeing Nier's true ending. I think Nier does some really cool things and presents some ideas that, while interesting, have been presented in other stories across different mediums many times before. Nier's take on them is admittedly unique. The biggest divide between Wolfenstein and Nier, for me, is that I don't really care that much about any of the characters in Nier. They're sorta cool and have insightful things to say, but not in a way that allows me to become attached to them. At the end of the day, they're just anime characters. That doesn't mean I think they're bad or that they suck, but even in the anime I do like, I've never connected to an anime character on a human level aside from the most basic of ways. Unless that changes in the third playthrough, I don't see myself placing it above Wolfenstein's narrative.

Wolfenstein is equal parts ludicrous, dark, dramatic, silly, and heartfelt. It's an insane combination that totally works. But the key to its success is that I truly give a shit about the characters and their struggles. The superb performances and tight writing really bring them to life. Yes, there are a number of jaw-dropping moments along the way that one could easily point to as to WHY this game is so good, but the story is so much more than that. There is genuine heart in it, and many of the low-key moments are just as important. An early scene involving older BJ and his mother comes to mind, a scene that made me tear up a little bit. I love that. The ending is anti-climactic and lackluster, but the journey there was as gripping as anything else I've seen this year, if not more so.

The strength of Nier: Automata as well as the original Nier is not its actual plot. It's the way by which it re-frames and re-characterizes what you have already experienced or what you think you already know in different ways. It's not there to surprise you with twists and turns. It's there to you make you think back to past events with new eyes and develop new ways of thinking about the nature of things.

Ending E, which everyone talks about, isn't even part of the actual plot at all. It is all about presenting the relationship between the player and the creator and the relationship between player and player in a unique way. People that say the original Nier did the same thing with its final ending is correct, but only on a surface level.

Nier is not a game that should even be listed in the "best story" category at all. It needs a category all by itself.

I feel as if I'm in the minority for thinking that Nier fell incredibly short of where it could have ended up. Its actual plot has some interesting twists but for me, the more interesting aspect of that game is the idea of humanity and how that is explored in an era where humanity is long-extinct (which is something that's made pretty clear by the first game).

Nier is full of characters who pose interesting questions, but absolutely fail to have answers. it feels like a 30-hour long philosophy 101, or like an essay crammed full of as many quotes and references as possible for the highest marks without actually exploring what any of its inspirations mean. Its most important connections and revelations are done off-screen and via text, while the big topics it challenges are immediately dismissed by 2B and completely ignored by A2. It's great to have a game that is willing to strike out into territory that's normally refined for niche sci-fi books, but by choosing to not work towards a specific message, it ends up being the Skyrim of humanity: wide as an ocean, deep as a puddle. 2B, 9S and A2 all fail as storytelling devices, for as much as they succeed as vessels for the player.

@the_nubster: Stole the words right out of my mouth....albeit in an infinitely more eloquent manner.

Wolfenstein delivers what it could be a great movie to watch. Even when some of its best bits are also playable, they play on the same structure of narrative most people are used to...And again, it's pretty fun. Here you have some real characters that feel interesting on a setting that feels relatable and topical.

Nier tell a good story by being a video game, and centers on all of its video game-ness to tell it. Don't think people like it because it tells the "best" dark anime plot of the year ( tho some might),but rather because it tells it as a video game. Here you play as fake people literally manufactured to participate in the activity they engage on a world after humans.

It would be difficult to find examples more directly opposed. Tho to be fair, Wolfenstein does have some of that "narrative-gameplay" stuff with the half health at the beginning.

Nier had allot more emotional weight for me and it was very unexpected. I loved my time with it.

So Nier all the way

@the_nubster: Nier is also as subtle as a exploding Volcano when it comes to telling us about the main chracters and ultimately the entire plot. The game doesn't provide any answers because its clearly primarily to ask question rather than to demand answers. Its true that the writing really feelt inconsequential in that regard because some aspects really just seem to be added for the sake of feeling dark and even edgy rather than to provide a concludent philosophical statement. The whole thing about Pascal is seen as the games apex by the people who have played the game through fully but when I came across that part I felt disconnected as the game already went full Anime by that point and I by that time everything dark was just added for fluff, rather than to tell a coherent message other than EVERYTHING IS EVEN MORE BONKERS. Whats worse is that it felt like the most predictable scene, considering Pascal is the most standing out chracter in the entire game and it was up until playthrough B when I suspected them/Yoko Taro/whoever to turn Pascals whole thing about his chracter upside down at any point.

Still, credit where credits due. The game does a good job for letting me care about the Robots and its too bad the game forces you to level up. I would've loved if the game was also designed around pacifism rather than just crushing everything around you so you can progress properly which would make Pascals important scene and the choice the player can partake in way more impactful, too.

@dray2k: Hold on, I thought the crux of that scene was that robots did not die, like at all. They simply transferred to another body just like YorHa androids did. UNLESS they destroyed their actual core or data. I think the explain that in detail around the same time that happens, and in that case, they all go for their own cores.

Also, as a person who did not deleted his save...don't judge me I went blind and I did not know what they where asking for... It does explain some of the stuff in the end. To put it simply, both YorHa androids and robots have the same core components and are programmed to fight against each other. In the case of either having an upper hand, their would change their programming to fit into a situation where they would not win ( since they where not programmed to win, just to fight). Pascal village was not a glitch where they became "good robots", rather than a specific way to avoid victory. Then after YorHa was gone, the Pascal village was not necessary anymore, hence all the stuff that happened after.

Its a final document from Jackass that explains the N2 red girl being part of the self correction and evolution of the systems.

@matiaz_tapia: Thats thats all true. However, I always felt that its related to momory and ability, and the question whether or not the robots deserve to die (Red-Eyed robots are driven mad by immortality so to speak). Also the tribe Pascal is the leader off cut of themselves off from the hive in order to attain sentience and individuality in favor of being with the Borg Collective so to speak.

At least from what the story provided, Robots are actually human life. I forgot the name of the Final Boss. The two doll like looking Aliens made it pretty clear that they wanted to simulate humanity by giving everyone a reason to bet at war forever. They futuristic looking robot bosses were the ones who turned the Robots, the Bronze looking ones I mean, insane in the first place. There is this theme going on with the game that there are only Masters and Slaves, which is why 2B and 9S are wearing maid outfits. The same logic applies to the Robots. I always felt that the Robots turning all agressive doesn't make a whole lot of sense if you're at that scene at the beginning/middle of Playthrough A where the robots are trying to have sex (actually mimicking human instincts in favor of agressive behavior). That sort of immortality stripped the robots away from attaining humanity (The famous "become as gods" scene hints towards this) and is deterioating the soul and nature of the robots themselves (as an example, Pascals tribe are all very human-like and not much different from actual humans/or Androids if you will).

On the topic of the nature of the Robots I felt like its kind of vague and thats partially due to the whole Replicants (Androids) and Gestalt (Robots) theme from the first Nier that carried on with Nier: AM. It can also be that I'm just mixing up stuff here and there but I think that I still remember the gist of the whole thing.

Oh and I don't even remember that tidbit from Jackass though the part about evolution and self regulation/correction is another theme of the game. I'm writing primarily regarding that important scene about Pascal and the tribe to examplify what the person I was quoting was getting at.

Regardless, I don't really want to elaborate on that further as Nier: AM is all over the place and is purposefully vaguely written so elaborating takes time. But if you want to know you can hit me up with PMs so I can try to answer all your questions. At any case, I hope this properly carries my thoughts and feelings to the matter so you can understand where I came from.

EDIT: Added a few things, games all over the place. Can't really write something cohesive without writing a wall of text. Also fixed some bad grammar.

Literally no such thing as a good anything writing from japan, so Wolfenstein.

@taesoawful: lol thats so damn rude.

I don't consider funny or surprising moments to be a strong narrative, NieR's exploration into a post human world and how artificial intelligence exists and operates in such a world is fascinating, and the way it uses the games mechanics outside of where story is usually presented is so creative, and an homage to the creativity of the first game. Wolfenstein, while having good writing and vocal performances, suffers from its menial plot and lackluster ending, almost everyone agrees Wolfenstein has amazing moments, but story? I wouldn't say so.

@dray2k: no problem, you can find the report here: (SPOILERS )

https://nierautomata.wiki.fextralife.com/Machine+Research+Report

Nier did a truly unique thing with interactive narrative(Ending E). You can go look it up on youtube, but its one of those rare things that you really have to play to feel the emotional impact. Not to mention all the plot twists, philosophizing, metaphors. Its a game that made you think

Wolfenstein had a great story, but it was straightforward af. I read the plot twists coming from a mile away. Also, the ending was....ok.

One thing both these games share is that their middling/above-average gameplay. I'd give the edge to nier because the variety of mechanics kept the gameplay fresh.