No playable female in Deep Down discussion

When it comes to gaming, I don't give a crap about the protagonists sexuality, race, gender, whatever. Hell, I play games where you aren't even human. Tell me a good story, have fun gameplay, and I couldn't care less about anything else. Funnily enough, right now I'm playing Lightning Returns, and I do not find myself saying "Jeeze, I wish I was a handsome, straight white guy right now...."

@cmblasko: your examples are really bad because stuff like Twillight or 50 shades of Gray is targeted at females and isolates the male audience. I do not know anything about Hunger Games so I can't say anything about it. Male and Female just like different things. For example males are way more competitive than females are. It is in our nature to be like that and this is. We should note crater everything to everyone. If they want to do it. Sure go ahead but if not we should not judge people for that.

As for games. I think women like more story oriented games like an Uncharted for example because it resembles movies more. Iphone and tablet stuff is also great for small gaming sessions. While a game like Dark Souls is way to intimidating for most women. IT is more about mechanics and skills rather than about a story or a little fun.

But those are all books; a medium which is dominated by female consumers, especially in the 'power user/core reader' whatever market slice. That market is the reason why the book section will be loaded with covers of brooding yet vulnerable ripped shirtless dudes staring at smart-looking white women. We all know why those books exist, it's because a huge portion of the audience is that market. Yet if we walk into a game store and see the shelves loaded with covers of violent looking men and promiscuously dressed women, that's sexism unique to us, it proves that men who play games are some of the worst labels modern society has, and it's excluding half of the world from playing games.

I'm not criticizing books for having Harlequin romances or urban fantasy teen fiction because you create supply when there is demand. However, in gaming we've accepted a framework where popular demand itself is abusive. That's nuts.

outside of character customization, in a game like this, I don't really care about it

Have you heard of hidden object games? Giantbomb quicklooked a few and those are targeted mainly at women and mostly feature female protagonists.

@brodehouse: You made good points - especially the bit about romance novels (males who would consume something similar are perverts yet females are just "in touch with their sexuality") - but I do want to point out that 2/3 of my examples are also movies which did huge business and broke records with the 3rd most likely to do the same once its released.

I await her article about Mike Bithell's Volume.

But how many of them were male viewers and not forced to watch it with their wife/girlfriend?

Was I supposed to take that article seriously? It's a parody of itself. Evidence that gender in gaming Is a non-issue.

@pyrodactyl: Yeah, I said most developers, not all. Especially AAA game developers since they apparently need all the sales they can get just to stay alive.

I don't know? How would I go about obtaining such a statistic?

The community is alright on most things, but they really seem to get up in arms whenever sexism is brought up.

This game just became 100 percent less interesting to me. So, I was super excited and interested when I first saw this game, now I'm kind of lukewarm on it.

For something like an MMO, or an RPG, I think choosing a gender is an important factor to me. It might not be to anyone else, but when I can make a cool female character in almost any RPG type game, I almost expect it to be in similar games in the future. When it's not, the game becomes less interesting.

I think it's all expectations. I thought this game was like a Skyrim, Dark Souls, etc. where you could make a character. It's not. So while I get that it's what the creators wanted to do and it's my fault for expecting the game to be something it's not, it also doesn't change the fact that the game becomes infinitely less interesting to me personally then it was before this information came out.

That article is completely unfair.

I'm not a woman myself, but I feel the same way. A big part of the charm of Skyrim and Dark Souls is creating your character. I think that's one of the reasons I never got into the Witcher games. I do find it odd that they stress that it's a story about this specific male character but we haven't heard or seen anything about this character that gives the impression he actually has an identity or personality. He's always running around in full plate armor in the trailers.

It's totally reasonable to be less interested as a result of this news, we all look for different features from different games.

Drumming up social outrage over it is where it gets weird (mind you, it was outrage based on false news that you could select from multiple characters, none of which were female, which is at least more understandable).

A valid argument. Although expectation can ruin any game for any reason. For instance, you mention Dark Souls; I could be very disappointed in this game if it turned out it wasn't a challenging game similar to Dark Souls. But it might be that people who criticized this so heavily were, and maybe still are, under the impression that there is no story of a single character. I suppose I can understand people having some question marks why they can't play as a certain gender when you perceive a game to be similar to games that do give you that option, but that still leaves the insane overreaction of sexism that I don't fully understand.

You make a good point. There is a pretty clear double standard when it comes to this stuff.

Uh maybe having a customizable character didnt work in the games narrative as well or they decided against customizing your character in certain ways. This isn't sexist, this is just a game with a male lead.

I already lost ALOT of interest in the game when they revealed the meta game of being in the future living the memories or whatever ala assassins creed.

I thought the characters looked generic so I assumed they were created. I guess they're just generic dudes they want you to care about.

Kinda lame.

@brodehouse: That's a great panel.

@expensiveham said:

Actually, I talked to your aunt, and she's been wrecking shop in the DS2 beta with a sick dual greatsword invasion build. She's pretty legit.

Deep Down is basically a "E-sports" like event in the future. These peopel you are controlling in these dungeons are virtual.

And once again, what could have been a productive discussion about the validity, benefits, and potential conflicts that arise from giving the player a gender choice in a story-focused game (like Mass Effect) has become hateful accusatory nonsense.

I understand the frustration, but people like Brenna Hillier are just taking a huge shit on their (our) cause. Pushes for progress are warranted, attacks are not, and it does nothing but make all sides deaf to any important points that may be made. And even worse is the apparent compulsive need for outrage even after a perceived injustice is explained. In their blurb featuring Capcom's rational explanation of the situation and how there is only one playable character, Hillier's immediate reaction is:

Sugiura’s comments still do not explain why none of our hero’s companions are women.

@joshwent: I would agree with your sentiment. I feel less interested in the game as a whole, but it is mainly because of my own hopes and expectations, not because I feel offended by the choices the developer is making. It's unfortunate that the author of the piece decided to go this way. I always try to tell people why I feel the way I do, in this case why the game went from a must play to a try it eventually, and not accuse them of some ulterior motive. I think a lot of people would agree that being able to choose your gender in a game, as well as race, appearance, clothing, etc. is a good feature, but it's not necessary depending on the game you're making. My disappointment comes from seeing the trailers and assuming it was a Dark Souls/Skyrim/Mass Effect type experience where you could craft your hero, not a set story with a set protagonist. That just makes it so much less interesting to me on the whole. But I don't find the choice of a male lead a slight at my gender, and I don't think people should view it in those terms. It's too bad this is what happened.

@jadegl:

I find that pretty interesting, is that because you find it harder to relate to that character or is it more about hard to immerse yourself into that role if you like? Im only asking because im curious, not criticizing.

Still don't know enough about the story in this game to see how much any of this character creation will matter. If you're making a game with a defined character in mind (like a Nathan Drake or a Lara Croft), no problem because you don't create a character in that case, it's just given to you. It's a little weird here only because at least as of now, it doesn't seem like your player character is that defined (it's like the player character in a Bethesda game or a Souls game) and since they haven't really explained why it just looks like they left out a feature in the character creator. Of course, they could have a story reason that makes sense and it'll be fine as long as it isn't something dumb like "male gamers don't play as female characters" (which is clearly a lie, especially when it comes to MMOs).

@joshwent: I didn't even realize she responded to it. I think a writer needs not explain why his story about a group of guys is a story about a group of guys. Gears of War was a story about 4 guys. I don't feel that was sexist at all. Sure, it was testosterone filled action on a lot of fronts, but that's completely different from being sexist. There are female soldiers in that universe and they chainsaw-kill grunts just the same. The story was just about those guys.

I know as little about Deep Down's story as anyone, but at least I can reasonably assume some story purposes and/or creative direction for it to be as it is instead of blatantly accusing them of sexism while I don't know as much about it. Perhaps Hillier should look into actual sexism in the real world, compare it to a writer writing specifically about a man and judge if the latter, just perhaps, isn't real sexism after all. It doesn't help that she brings up old fashioned sexist statements about women herself, when no one else did. Almost seems like she thinks women aren't equal to men herself.

We're seriously discussing the inclusion/exclusive of a female character variant in the game we're working on and while the scale between us and Capcom is obviously hilarious and massive I imagine some of the problems are the same.

It's a tremendous amount of work to model, rig and animate a separate female version of a character when you already have so few resources and so many assets to build. It's something we wanted but realistically it may need to be cut. We'll see I guess.

When it comes to big developers and publishers I can see how people would expect them to be able to do anything (which they can't, duh) but ultimately male/female can be really hard to do. It boggles the mind to think of them making so many versions of every piece of armour for Dragon Age for different genders/races. Matching armour to animation and making sure shit isn't poking out all over the place is already a challenge. The idea of doing that over and over again with multiple rigs and characters of different size with different animations is mindboggling. Of course different games have different standards. You can make many different character types/sizes in Dragon's Dogma but it can seriously affect how equipment is sitting on your character.

Deep Down seems to want to be very realistic so I bet they limited character types/height/etc in order to be able to build the game on one model and test combat around that.

I guess I can still see, considering all that, why people would say "I don't care if the animations are the same just put a female head on that body" but from my perspective I guess if you're going to do something you should do it right, not just for the sake of doing it.

I'll end this overly long post by saying... Isn't it a canned character in this game? Like you don't make an avatar like Skyrim, you just play as a dude. Since when do we expect games like that to have male-female variants?

All of that sweet misinformation about romance novels. Twilight and Fifty Shades have the most generic looking non-descript covers, apart from the move tie-in ones which just feature the cast. Those terrible JS Cooper novels with the Men's Health looking covers are mostly out of sight. They aren't prominently displayed, they are almost never on best selling lists and they also don't pretend to be a mainstream thing. The men in those novels are almost always well-characterized which isn't at all the case for video game sexy babes. The last time I walked into a bookstore to a display of Fabio looking dudes holding damsels in front of a burning building was 15 years ago. Books in general also don't suffer from a lack of well-written male protagonists. The comparison between books and video games is lacking on all fronts there and shouldn't be done at all.

I'm sure even that is destroying the physical agency of women by ... oh I don't know, instilling within female children the inherent worthlessness of the female body? Something like that? There's no winning.

What you should do is just make every character female.

Funnily enough given all of this unwarranted hubbub, Capcom are actually the designers of one of the most 'inclusive' character creators around.

Hmm it's a canned character? I mean if there's no character creator and it's just a named guy that everyone plays as then yeah there shouldn't be a problem at all. I thought the premise for this game was that you're a dude who plays a MMO that looks like a procedurally-generated Dark Souls. The only weird part would be why this MMO game doesn't have a female option but we have to see what the story is like (don't these guys know the Snider rule: if you're gonna be staring at this character's ass for hours and hours on end, might as well be a female ass). It seems similar to Assassin's Creed in that you're a dude who plays as a virtual dude but in those games the virtual dude has always been a defined guy with a name and a look that isn't customizable and everyone uses so it's not weird there.

@coinmatze: All this guldern misinformation!

It's almost as if they were products designed for a market that wants them and is completely entitled to want them.

lol well other than being sexist to men you'd also be leaving out transgender.

The clear answer is that all game characters should be genderless robots that speak in 0s and 1s. We refer to them as "they". That way everyone can be included!

sounds like someone wants attention after a diaperless tantrum. fasten up kids.

NOPE HETERO POWER FANTASY SORRY

lol huh, this now seems a little random without the images.

Perfect.

@coinmatze: I think you have not visited a real bookstore in 15 years and looked especially at romance novels.

Here amazon for example since I do not live in a Bookstore: Romance novel bestsellers:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_kk_2?rh=i%3Astripbooks%2Ck%3Aromance+novels+best+sellers&keywords=romance+novels+best+sellers&ie=UTF8&qid=1392834208

hmmm... this isn't.... true...? Well maybe in the UK or elsewhere..

In North America in the last twenty years there are only two sections in major bookstoors that make money consistently and are, more importantly, growing:

1) Anime

2) Romance Novels, specifically, Harlequin and their many other imprints. These are 100% just books with Fabios on the cover and men and women are purposefully underdeveloped and cliche. Harlequin is just the most popular. They've made over 500 million a year for the last decade (and increasing). According to Wikipedia they publish 120 books A MONTH.

The truth about books has been that lowbrow romance has been dominating for years. Twilight and Fifty Shades of Grey *are not* part of that category. Harelquin is literally built on prototype and form-based writing. Whatever we can say about Twilight and 50, they were at least written by individuals with ideas.

----

All this doesn't change the fact that books do have better female and male characters. But to say that mainstream books are somehow not as bad as TV or games is just wrong. In many ways they are worse. Personally I'd say TV is by and large the most damning.

wow wow wow what? lol.

Are you pulling my leg?

I had no idea this was a game within a game thing. Not sure how I feel about it.

Maybe the story is about a sad young man who lives out a power fantasy by playing as a badass male warrior in an mmo? Story explained!

I agree. I don't even understand why it matters. The game doesn't even exist yet.

As usual people just need something to hate.

@carryboy: It's more because it went from (in my mind) a game where you could tinker with a character and make them your own to a game where you get a character who is set in stone, for lack of a better term. A big part of making a character my own, for me, just happens to be making my character a female. It's the same reason why I like giving my character blue eyes and red or brown hair and I give them realistic body proportions, like normal height, weight and breast size. I enjoy making a character look as close to me as possible, while still being fantastical. I think it does allow me, as a player especially in the RPG genre, to connect to the player character and the characters that I interact with in game better. If I am "me" in Mass Effect, for instance, I find it easier to make a connection to the events in game. Part of that is being a female.

That is, of course, not necessary for every game. I had an emotional connection to Elizabeth in Bioshock Infinite and the little sisters in the first Bioshock. I also felt for Nathan Drake and Joel. I enjoyed all the Gears of War games and all the Halo games. I cried when Dom died for crying out loud, so I can connect and appreciate a game where the characters are specific and unchangeable. I just appreciate it when a developer realizes that stuff like gender choice is important for some people, especially in a genre like role-playing where part of the fun is getting into character. I admit, it's hard, as a female, to get into the head of a male character and role-play it. But in FPS and other games, I don't really care at all.

@jadegl: The create your own character seems to be more prevalent in western RPGs. While some Japanese RPGs do feature that, many of them have a set protagonist. Is it that you tend to prefer a more western RPG style where you get to create your own character?

@darji: I was, just on monday. The romance novel section in a German bookstore looks pretty tame. http://www.amazon.de/gp/bestsellers/books/420222031/ref=zg_bs_nav_b_2_117

Yeah, maybe it is a US thing then. I actually can't believe that the markets could be that different. German bookstores are mostly terrible comedy.

@jadegl: It's similar for me. I also create a character that mostly resembles me, usually, when the game provides me the means to do so. However, the only official word that I've read on Deep Down is that it is an RPG where the story revolves around this one dude. Perhaps similar to how Deus Ex is an RPG which a story revolving around one dude. You can't choose a girl in that game either.

That is what the dev is saying though.

But this is the same. Just go through these. And German Bookstores are not different. I also live in Germany and when I visit the store near the train station and go for romance novels I see the same. And there is really nothing wrong with it at all. This is the market they strive for and make money of. I do not feel upset or offended by it even though I also like romance movies and novels. If its not my taste or if its not written for me I just do not buy it.

Honestly, I'm less likely to buy/play a game if I'm forced to play male, but I'm not so entitled as to expect or ask for designers to cater to my every preference.

@sergio: I would say that. I do prefer more western style RPGs to JRPGS, although there are plenty of JRPGs that I enjoy and have enjoyed in the past. One of my favorite games of all time is the original Final Fantasy, especially the Dawn of Souls remake for GBA. And, in the future, I am desperately excited for Kingdom Hearts 3. So I dig games developed for Japanese tastes, but I was hoping, based on the trailers that I had seen, that it was more along the lines of a Dark Souls/Skyrim than a Final Fantasy. And part of the fun of those games is creating your own avatar and play style and making your own fun with it, however you end up doing that.

This is the best post of the thread, I will take my leave.

@jadegl: Right ok im 100% with you now, except for crying for Dom, Dom sucked. I thought that whole thing was pretty funny for how dumb it was.

@jadegl: It is like this gameplay wise. But as far as we Know this game won't have much customization at all. So yeah if you really like this it is totally understandable why you are finding this disappointing. And your reasoning for that is totally understandable.