No playable female in Deep Down discussion

@joshwent said:

Maybe I should have worded that a bit better. I would say confidently that some women are driven away from the medium due to the consistent single-mindedness of developers and publishers when it comes to gender in games. Make a compelling enough game with a big enough title on it, and everyone and their grandmother will buy it, we've seen that with GTA V (and that had 3 male protagonists!) But would some women buy 5-10 games in a year instead of 2 or 3 if more respect were being paid to their gender? I think so.

Certainly there are hardcore gamers of either gender that will buy up tons of games in whatever genres they're into regardless of who they're playing as. I never meant to imply this wasn't the case. I just think there are more people on the fringe that would enjoy gaming if there was more variety.

I think it would be really funny to read that Brenna ladies article if the genders were reversed. I imagine a redneck whose pissed off because hes worried that playing as a girl might make him gay.

@sergio: This is a much much better article. I do not agree with everything she says. But I can totally respect this opinion.

Kinda sucks. I play most of my games as a female... and yes typing that out feels super creepy and odd. Moving on, I'm not going to getting upset if I can't play as a female. To be honest the biggest reason I do make females is due to the fact that they have better models MOST of the time and I don't want to look like 75% of the other players. That and Princess Peach was a badass and fem Shepherd was the real Shepherd ans so on. Also if I try to make a guy, about 40 mins later I look like an orc or a pedo... pick female and hit a few options for hair and whatnot, DONE! People seem to get upset over anything now a days and that sucks. At some point (if not already) its going to start hurting the video games we love and play. I love talking about what I like and hate in video games... just in a constructive way.

Is this gonna be a thing now? Everytime there isn't a female protag were gonna get some whack ass blog and then someone will post about it on a forum like it's important or news or even a good discussion? I mean goddamn man this gender shit has already went past crazytown, but now it's getting hilariously bad. Shit! Fuck! Shit Fuck! What's nextt? An angry gender fueled blog about how South Park The Stick of Truth also doesn't allow a female protag?

Yep.

@sergio: Eh, didn't think the article was giving much of a compelling argument either to be honest. Its a tad bit less accusatory and tries to flesh out some of her counter arguments(however poorly). I rolled my eyes at the linking of that LA Noir article from a week ago. That article had all sorts of problems as well.

@darji: Yes, there are parts where I thought she's grasping at straws, like the claim that women are 50% of the gaming audience or Hitman killing women. For the most part, the premise is okay, while some of the examples given don't always hold up. I don't have a problem with sexualized characters, but I do think we should also have some sensibly dressed characters when appropriate, e.g. armor that doesn't really protect.

The major reason that I preferred this article is that she doesn't call a developer sexist for not including women - that I recall. I feel that if the developer has a story to tell, and if that story has a male lead, then so be it. I don't remember her trying to counter that point, which I think it a plus in her favor.

Yeah totally. But the Quite and MGSV thing about the clothing she brought as example was a bad in my opinion. MGS plays in a overly sexualized world which counts for both men and women. Just take a look at Vamp for example. If its fits the world it is set in it is totally fine. However if you see Bikini Armor in a game like Battlefield it is not ok and should be criticized. We often just see one thing without looking at the why or the context.

But in the end she did the right thing and did not accuse or insulted people of something.

@sergio: Why not question every game? Most of the time, the answer will likely be "everything's fine" but the questions need to be there.

It is okay to criticize artworks for their content. Games have had a long history of poor female representation and what seems like a little thing to you can often be part of a bigger whole.

So generic characters you aren't supposed to care about at all. Fantastic. Thank you for helping me formulate my entire opinion on this game going forward.

@littleemille: I feel you can ask intelligent questions such as what a character's motivation is or their background and how it serves the story without needing to ask why can't I play as a woman. If you don't like the answer, don't accuse them of being sexist, whether direct or passive aggressive.

Throwing a hissy because you don't get your way in being able to play a female character isn't criticism, it's whining. As a journalist, even in an op-ed, she should try to do some research and ask valid questions of the developers instead of making assumptions and basing their entire premise on hearsay. If they don't answer, that's their prerogative, and it doesn't prove her point in any way.

Op-ed of this kind should be welcomed, as they let us know which people are less worthy of their existence on this planet.

Kuchera or whoever it was who stated in his own op-ed that Titanfall was a great game for those not up to professional levels in FPS games, was also welcomed. He gained respect in my book for that.

*cue Polygon review outrage sidenote*

You can't play a female in any version of Persona 4, even though you could in Persona 3 Portable. Clearly it's sexism and not just a design choice.

EDIT: Also, the latest Final Fantasy XIII incarnation only has a female character, even though it's a very customizable RPG. I really don't see the problem with a game having only a male customizable character. I don't see the issue.

Traditionally woman didn't usually wear suits of armour or be knights though. I have read Game of Thrones I know about this.

If you are making a game with the panty raid engine, its probably gonna have some sexism in it.

@49th said:

Women had a definite presence in the ancient warrior cultures of the Far East. The Mongols, and until the late 1300s the Japanese, were well-known to field female warriors.

They're not knights, no, and they're not technically Samurai either, but they fought and died like the rest.

Incidentally I think a game where you played as an Onna-Bugeisha would be rad.

I thought it was the Panda Ray Engine, but friends(not mine) say it was the Fanta Ray Engine which would suck because Fanta is gross as fuck.

I can't wait till people start calling books "sexist" or "misogynistic" because the protagonist is a man and you don't get to "choose" if they are male or female.

Oh wait, that will never happen. The games industry is stupid.

I can't wait until the gaming industry realizes that the shirtless, sexualized, muscular male characters on the front of at least half of all romance novels are not examples of "male power fantasy." And yet, I don't care, and I don't "wish to see this great injustice dealt with" or however you'd want to sensationalize the issue.

@crembaw said:

Blood Rites is a great read and covers a lot of feminine influence in conflict throughout history.

who gives a shit

When I play games similar to Dark Souls or any RPGs, I want to make a character down to the finest detail; so the less customization options there are, the less interested I am. I'm ignoring the whole gender war here since it's the internet and it feels pointless, however I personally don't like being limited in character creation. So if you're forced into a male role I can only assume you don't have much choice in your looks either, combined this would be a huge negative for me.

@crembaw: The Mongols are a decent example. They occasionally had female horse archers with their army(though rarely it seems). Mongol women were mainly tasked with defending encampments as some sort of militia. The reason is that it gave the Mongols absolute conscription among the males. Thus, all of your men could be used in your army.

Onna Bugeishia, on the other hand, are not as good of example. The Onna were basically daughters of high ranking nobles(so automatically extremely small class) with some ceremonial weapons training. Any type of example of them being actual battlefield combatants is usually tied with mythological poems.

Even in todays standards with progressive armies, female combatants have only been an exception rather than a rule.

@avantegardener: I read that. It was alright. I think "On Killing" is way better.

For me it comes down to this, if it is possible to make a character in a game it should be possible to make a LGBT character. That it, if you make your character the direction developers should be going to should be making it possible to 'role play' what you want. I can fully understand when a game has a set protagonist and a set story for games to go that way, but I also understand there are huge groups of players who are under represented or could be easily represented with just a tiny with more thought by the developers.

So, yeah, I might not buy Deep Down because of this. No really, it not a huge request to have female avatars and it is not a big request to have LGBT options or role play possibilities in a game like this.

Where does this thought process end? Does there need to be an autism slider on character creation? Maybe a down syndrome one too? How about unibrows, most character creators don't include those. Cleft palattes? Why not androgynous choices? Or Furries?

This thought process that not having female characters is sexist is just stupid. I can't play Torchlight as a baby or geriatric, so OBVIOUSLY the developers HATE babies and old people.

Developers shouldn't feel pressured to 'include' every possible option for character creation just because sometimes people can't play a picture perfect version of themselves, or whatever they might want to play as.

You can just keep the camera behind the player and tell yourself it's a girl. The only problem here is the scope of human imagination. I once convinced myself I was playing as a dog when playing Super Mario Bros. on the SNES. It actually makes more sense for a dog to go into pipes and jump on small furry creatures.

The only reason I can tolerate Tomb Raider is because I convince myself I'm playing as Larry Croft, a British mechanic who had his tools stolen and must search tombs to find them.

Again, not enough details, but as the dev made it seem from his statement and video's shown so far: there is no character creator. You are just playing the one dude. You know, like Deus Ex: Human Revolution for instance. It's an RPG(ish?) game, but there is only the one guy. No facial customization, that's being done for you when you are ripped to shreds in the tutorial.

But then, I suppose you never asked for that either.

Sounds like some sensationalist bullshit to make up some controversy to get views.

That second layer linked article is just bad. She does not know how to write or just decides that its best to make up a reality in her mind without any factual evidence to back it up. I really don't feel like going into detail. Why should I put more effort into this post than she did in that article? Its not sexist, you have a right to cry about it but I also have a right to ignore you and note that you aren't being forced to buy the game, so your complaints are pointless.

@zevvion said:

If this was intentional, bravo.

Who in the gaming industry has said that dudes on romance novel covers are not sexualized? I seen many people argue that most men in video games are not sexualized, but I've never seen anyone in the industry deny that those in romance novels are. Also do you really want to compare a genre of books that most people(even those that like them) agree are generally pretty trashy and just plain bad most of the time? I mean I don't really disagree with the comparison, but I would hope that someday games are viewed more positively than trashy romance novels.

What everyone who thinks it's disappointing that Deep Down doesn't let you be a lady seems to forget is that it's a fucking free to play RPG that would, AT MOST, just re-skin the character as a female and change nothing else. What would be the point of that? No one looks at Dark Souls or Skyrim and thinks "Finally, gender equality in videogames!" Developers should be able to make what they want without everyone trying to politicize them. I am all for quality games with interesting stories centered around a good female protagonist but don't pretend that's what would happen by shoving in stuff like this when it clearly wouldn't solve anything.

The fact that this has even been the basis for articles like "RPG FROM JAPAN THAT LOOKS KIND OF LIKE DARK SOULS DOESN'T LET YOU BE A WOMAN!?!?!?!?!?!?" just goes to show how fucking dumb everything is.

More so if the character choice has no bearing on the story or gameplay, what are you missing out on? These are video games where you swing a sword and kill imaginary monsters, where does LGBT come into play? Is it just so the player sees the label on the character sheet and somehow feels better? Even if you are encased in armor for the entire gamespan and interact with zero NPC's? Video games aren't the last bastion for equality and human rights, this isn't where these battles are going to be won. While I appreciate the effort that Patrick puts into his work, this crazy over analysis that some game press engage in is responsible for these strange threads where people feel the need to be outraged or disgusted by what is meant to be a fun, relaxing, gaming experience.

Honestly, I'm not sure that I would agree that most video games have more artistic value than romance novels. Many games can be pretty "trashy" as well, and certainly most video game writing leaves a lot to be desired. And sorry for the confusion. I didn't really mean no one in the gaming industry thinks that romance novels are sexualized. What I was really getting at is that people make such a big deal about video games objectifying women, but NO ONE seems to care that the same thing happens with men in a medium / genre that is exclusively targeted to women.

It's not a perfect example of hypocrisy--for example, there's a larger variety of books than video games--but it's an example of objectification that no one really seems to care about in the slightest.

@spaceinsomniac: Men and woman are totally different in this regard for most people. And that is the sad thing. If its a woman it is bad if its a man it is great because it is "rare". This kind of double standard needs to stop. Either be against objectification as a whole or honestly do not try to convince people that objectifying only one special gender is bad. Same goes for stuff like domestic violence. Fight against it as a whole and do not try to specialize the issue with women.

In my personal Opinion people can objectify the hell out of each other. No matter if man or woman. If I am interested in it I will buy it if not I will not buy it. Same goes for the market. If there is a market for it than it will be used if not then not. That is one reason why I like the japanese media culture because everything and everyone is sexualized and objectified be it man or woman. That is also the reason why Japanese media has so much diversity in terms of characters.

I thought long and hard about this issue and this is that I have come up with:

eh.

EDIT: As for women on the ancient battlefield, German women would kill their warrior men whom would flee the field of battle.

I want to be a robot. Why isn't there any robot options? Technophobic assholes!

You can be a robot if you really wanna be, Alexander. Don't give up on your dreams.

Panty Raid

Do I need to be blown into bits by junkies to become a robot? Also, call me Alex, please.

First of all, can we quit critiquing games that aren't out yet? Especially when our only basis for critique is poorly run interviews with misleading information? Under better circumstances, I might even support the writer of this article. Those circumstances being a finished product that they have actually played. I have similar frustrations with the article about sexual violence in Lords of Shadow 2.

I don't want to dismiss these issues, because there is an obvious inequality going on. But at the same time I'm not willing to dismiss a creative's vision based on rumor, trailers, previews, interviews, or anything other than firsthand experience. Further, from my impression the game actually doesn't feature a complex character creation tool, but rather focuses on a written character who is male. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. The effort here shouldn't be targeting single products that don't feature female leads. That mindset, outside of coming off really dismissive, is quite exhausting. Rather, the questions should go toward the creatives that put out dozens of games which all feature very similar protagonists. Even beyond a social issue, that seems like an incredibly boring way to conduct your games from an artistic standpoint.

Alas, sensationalists do live on both sides of the fence here. It's rather unfortunate people that care more about stirring the pot more than progress are the ones getting more attention. Maybe it's just my outlook, but I'd rather see article commending games that do it right, than a constant barrage of cynicism and "how can you enjoy this, you sexist pig!"

Is that what "The Raid" is gonna end up being?

Jeff drunkenly stumbling into the CBSi offices one night with fists full of panties stuffed down his shirt and track pants, raving about Hatsune Miku and the local neighborhood's low security, and as he crumples in front of Brad playing Dark Souls II on stream, letting a wave of torn up panties tumble across the floor, he yells, "F*ck! Look what you made me do! Look at this sh*t! You wanted a Raid. You got your damn Raid!"

And as Vinny starts to pick up the soiled rainbow of panties littered across the floor of the Giant Bomb set, Drew just stares on in silence as the youthful wonder in his eyes slowly fades into the dull tint of innocence lost.

But what did they wear XD

As opposed to the ... 99% terrible female characters in games for the past 30 years?

Can you name a few of these terrible female characters? I am curious.

I can only speak for myself, but the reason I criticize games and not trashy romance novels is because I love video games and would like to see the medium grow. On the other-hand I don't like romance novels and I don't care if they continue to be shitty. Also it usually doesn't really bother me women are objectified on game covers. The things that typically bother me are in game.

edit: Isn't Deep Down supposed to be a free-play muliplayer/co-op game? How do they only have one playable character? I'm probably misunderstanding something, but it seems super weird to have an online game were everyone plays the same dude.

Unless you count the women in games with big breasts, who are barely clothed, I think the issue is more of a lack of female characters with actual personality and character growth, whom are meaningful, than just blatantly terrible female characters. Sexuality is not even the detractor though in some cases. Look at Bayonetta. A very sexualized, yet strong female character who I think was done very well.