Old vs. New: Daggerfall vs. Dead Island

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Mento

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Edited By Mento  Moderator
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Oh my, where am I going with this? Daggerfall; the second Elder Scrolls game and probably its most troubled and Dead Island; a game where men be all acting like zombies on an island. Similarities aplenty despite a 15 year age difference, different genres and complete diverse settings? You'd better believe it! After reading all the words following these ones, of course. And then there's comics! So.. stick with it. Please.

I was working in the lab late one night, when my eyes beheld an eerie sight..

HELLO! I'M DEAD! IT KIND OF SUCKS! HERE'S SOME SCREAMING FOR YOU!
HELLO! I'M DEAD! IT KIND OF SUCKS! HERE'S SOME SCREAMING FOR YOU!

Anyone whose sum total experience of Daggerfall is watching Dave and Vinny struggle through the opening dungeon might think the undead are central to that game, with the amount of noisy attention they were attempting to elicit for themselves, but truly they are only a very small part of a menagerie of common RPG beasties. Where both games draw a parallel is how they build spooky tension with their use of sound. Each enemy type in either game have a unique sound: Without initially knowing what monsters make what noise, the novice player is both terrified and disorientated by the guttural (or guttering, in the case of Daggerfall's grizzly bear) cries coming from every direction. Even after gaining some experience and being able to identify what lies ahead, a certain amount of trepidation sinks in before that enemy actually appears. Dungeons (or Dead Island's equivalent, like the hotel and abandoned town buildings) range from a cacophony of sounds to dead quiet, with perhaps the latter being more concerning.

Son of a Glitch

You can't really talk about either of these games without discussing how damn broken they are. In both cases, I feel this is a case of their scale overshadowing the actual coding competency to make sure everything in those huge worlds works like they're supposed to. Glitches can have an interesting divisive effect on how a game's received: It immediately chases off many of the casual weekenders, coming in for a quick play to see if it's worth their time. It's the fans, the ones who get invested with what the games do right, that are willing to suffer for their fun. Bringing up the glitches just makes them sigh and make their apologies, "Heh, yeah, that's _____ for you", while immediately changing the subject to what they like about the games. It's like an unusual case of Battered Wife Syndrome. Maybe this time it won't come home drunk and clip me through a wall.

Swing & a Miss

Should you happen to switch on analog controls for Dead Island (and why wouldn't you?), you'll notice a striking (sorry) similarity to Daggerfall's traditional "click and drag" combat. There's a strong immersive element to being able to control your character's swing and seeing those blows connect to the monstrosity that's all up in your face. Unfortunately both systems have their slight flaws, again based on that universal issue that there's so much else going on at the same time that nothing's quite as polished as it could've been. Daggerfall's combat is directed entirely by dice-rolls, meaning certain blows just whiff through opponents despite them standing approximately five inches away and screaming so hard that your neighbors call the police. Dead Island appears to assume that you're holding all your weapons in your teeth, with a zombie's arm-span often outreaching that of your own plus a two-foot long machete. Unless you choose a weapon with a decent length to it - most blunt weapons fit this better than the bladed ones, protipz - you'll find yourself wondering if objects in the front view mirror aren't actually further away than they appear.

Giving a Hoot About Loot

Oh boy, loot. Since RPGs immemorial, the best part has always been gathering so much treasure that you can swim in it. But soon after eviscerating yourself with all the magic swords and axes mixed in with the gold you've been doing the breaststroke through, there comes a time where you want more from a good loot system than simply quantity. So, I guess I mean quality then. Dead Island's loot system is a very perplexing take on the traditional color-coded loot system beloved of Borderlands and many MMOs before it. In a completely arbitrary order of importance, it goes from White to Green to Blue to Purple to Orange. However, none of these colors actually mean anything: Often these orange weapons are as effective as their less rare brethren, and the game explicitly tells you as much. There's no particular reason why they would be more valuable, besides the fact that most of the orange weapons I found appeared to be named after movie references. I guess even when the world's gone crazy and the dead walk the earth, we can all still appreciate a good old Family Guy-esque movie shout out. It makes Daggerfall's method of assigning value based on the type of material and craft gone into a weapon look positively quaint by comparison.

Surgeon General's Warning: Leveling Up is Hazardous To Your Health

Ah, the perils of a dynamic leveling system. In Dead Island and Oblivion (which I know isn't Daggerfall but bear with me here), a clever trick was used so the designers wouldn't have to create too many new or palette-swapped enemies: A system where enemies level up as you do. This system, in case you're wondering why it isn't used outside of notably drug-fueled experimental batshittery like Final Fantasy VIII, is notoriously difficult to balance. This is despite the ironic truth that the system's very purpose is to provide constant equilibrium. Somehow, if you continue to level, the game gets progressively and severely more difficult. Not in the good, "on purpose" way that a game might get harder - that would be by creating more challenging goals and increasing the number and tenacity of your opponents, designed in such a way to test a more experienced player along a steady difficulty curve. Instead I mean in the way that enemies unfairly gain more health than you do and unfairly do more damage to you, and then have all those aforementioned "traditional" hardships added on top of it. I believe Dead Island's implication is that all the skills you've been learning should grant you an advantage, regardless of how even basic-level enemies you were cleaving through just moments before are now vastly more powerful. Either that's the implication, or "don't do any side-quests, don't stop for anything, no looting, no exploring, just go go go" which, to be fair, is also a fair strategy to follow should one find themselves in a zombie apocalypse.

I'll Leave You With What We All Came Here To See: Hardcore Nudity!

Boobs! Butts! These games have them. I actually don't concur with Jeff's observation that the zombie ladies landing butt-side up were meant to be gratuitous at all, because - and since I realize this is the internet I might well be alone with this opinion - my anaconda don't want none unless you got skin and a pulse, hon. Likewise, Daggerfall's nudie paper doll equipment screen is really so you can dress up your pretty but ineffective Nord bard in clothing as well as armor. Okay, allowing the player to purchase and collect underwear is perhaps a little gratuitous, I'll accept that much. I do recall finding bras as loot after killing these quite unfriendly vampire ladies and wondering what the hell my character's deal was.

Conclusion

My conclusion is.. uh, that.. I guess they're both video games? Will that do? To the comics!

Comics!

Dead Island

No Caption Provided

Deus Ex: Human Revolution?

So ends that trilogy. Back with JC next week. I'm going to finish that damn thing if kills me. Oh and, uh, Spoilers?
So ends that trilogy. Back with JC next week. I'm going to finish that damn thing if kills me. Oh and, uh, Spoilers?

SUPER SPECIAL BONUS COMIC!

So y'all might be wondering why I got me a golden medallion around my knightly neck. Sure doesn't seem like I'd pay $50 does it? I mean, unless you're unfamiliar with my frugal nature, which I guess would be all of you. But this magnanimous donation was made by the same guy who paid for my copy of Chantelise in that one series of comics that started all this MS mess o' mine. You might be wondering why a dude would do such a thing (I know I am), so to paraphrase his words: "I'm a wacky vegan and was likely to spend all that money on nutritional yeast from Trader Joe's anyway." Works for me I suppose.

As per our agreed terms, I'm now creating works commissioned by him about any topic deemed suitable for a video game website. So most of these will be video game related. FYI. My super-appreciative thanks again to WM user omghisam.

The (Kind of Abridged) Story of Mento's Career at Gizmondo Studios Manchester

Based on a true story. Bork bork bork.
Based on a true story. Bork bork bork.

In case you're bothered by the fact it was so short: Yeah, you and me both, buddy. There'll probably be another one of these very soon to make up for it.

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Mento

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#1  Edited By Mento  Moderator
No Caption Provided

Oh my, where am I going with this? Daggerfall; the second Elder Scrolls game and probably its most troubled and Dead Island; a game where men be all acting like zombies on an island. Similarities aplenty despite a 15 year age difference, different genres and complete diverse settings? You'd better believe it! After reading all the words following these ones, of course. And then there's comics! So.. stick with it. Please.

I was working in the lab late one night, when my eyes beheld an eerie sight..

HELLO! I'M DEAD! IT KIND OF SUCKS! HERE'S SOME SCREAMING FOR YOU!
HELLO! I'M DEAD! IT KIND OF SUCKS! HERE'S SOME SCREAMING FOR YOU!

Anyone whose sum total experience of Daggerfall is watching Dave and Vinny struggle through the opening dungeon might think the undead are central to that game, with the amount of noisy attention they were attempting to elicit for themselves, but truly they are only a very small part of a menagerie of common RPG beasties. Where both games draw a parallel is how they build spooky tension with their use of sound. Each enemy type in either game have a unique sound: Without initially knowing what monsters make what noise, the novice player is both terrified and disorientated by the guttural (or guttering, in the case of Daggerfall's grizzly bear) cries coming from every direction. Even after gaining some experience and being able to identify what lies ahead, a certain amount of trepidation sinks in before that enemy actually appears. Dungeons (or Dead Island's equivalent, like the hotel and abandoned town buildings) range from a cacophony of sounds to dead quiet, with perhaps the latter being more concerning.

Son of a Glitch

You can't really talk about either of these games without discussing how damn broken they are. In both cases, I feel this is a case of their scale overshadowing the actual coding competency to make sure everything in those huge worlds works like they're supposed to. Glitches can have an interesting divisive effect on how a game's received: It immediately chases off many of the casual weekenders, coming in for a quick play to see if it's worth their time. It's the fans, the ones who get invested with what the games do right, that are willing to suffer for their fun. Bringing up the glitches just makes them sigh and make their apologies, "Heh, yeah, that's _____ for you", while immediately changing the subject to what they like about the games. It's like an unusual case of Battered Wife Syndrome. Maybe this time it won't come home drunk and clip me through a wall.

Swing & a Miss

Should you happen to switch on analog controls for Dead Island (and why wouldn't you?), you'll notice a striking (sorry) similarity to Daggerfall's traditional "click and drag" combat. There's a strong immersive element to being able to control your character's swing and seeing those blows connect to the monstrosity that's all up in your face. Unfortunately both systems have their slight flaws, again based on that universal issue that there's so much else going on at the same time that nothing's quite as polished as it could've been. Daggerfall's combat is directed entirely by dice-rolls, meaning certain blows just whiff through opponents despite them standing approximately five inches away and screaming so hard that your neighbors call the police. Dead Island appears to assume that you're holding all your weapons in your teeth, with a zombie's arm-span often outreaching that of your own plus a two-foot long machete. Unless you choose a weapon with a decent length to it - most blunt weapons fit this better than the bladed ones, protipz - you'll find yourself wondering if objects in the front view mirror aren't actually further away than they appear.

Giving a Hoot About Loot

Oh boy, loot. Since RPGs immemorial, the best part has always been gathering so much treasure that you can swim in it. But soon after eviscerating yourself with all the magic swords and axes mixed in with the gold you've been doing the breaststroke through, there comes a time where you want more from a good loot system than simply quantity. So, I guess I mean quality then. Dead Island's loot system is a very perplexing take on the traditional color-coded loot system beloved of Borderlands and many MMOs before it. In a completely arbitrary order of importance, it goes from White to Green to Blue to Purple to Orange. However, none of these colors actually mean anything: Often these orange weapons are as effective as their less rare brethren, and the game explicitly tells you as much. There's no particular reason why they would be more valuable, besides the fact that most of the orange weapons I found appeared to be named after movie references. I guess even when the world's gone crazy and the dead walk the earth, we can all still appreciate a good old Family Guy-esque movie shout out. It makes Daggerfall's method of assigning value based on the type of material and craft gone into a weapon look positively quaint by comparison.

Surgeon General's Warning: Leveling Up is Hazardous To Your Health

Ah, the perils of a dynamic leveling system. In Dead Island and Oblivion (which I know isn't Daggerfall but bear with me here), a clever trick was used so the designers wouldn't have to create too many new or palette-swapped enemies: A system where enemies level up as you do. This system, in case you're wondering why it isn't used outside of notably drug-fueled experimental batshittery like Final Fantasy VIII, is notoriously difficult to balance. This is despite the ironic truth that the system's very purpose is to provide constant equilibrium. Somehow, if you continue to level, the game gets progressively and severely more difficult. Not in the good, "on purpose" way that a game might get harder - that would be by creating more challenging goals and increasing the number and tenacity of your opponents, designed in such a way to test a more experienced player along a steady difficulty curve. Instead I mean in the way that enemies unfairly gain more health than you do and unfairly do more damage to you, and then have all those aforementioned "traditional" hardships added on top of it. I believe Dead Island's implication is that all the skills you've been learning should grant you an advantage, regardless of how even basic-level enemies you were cleaving through just moments before are now vastly more powerful. Either that's the implication, or "don't do any side-quests, don't stop for anything, no looting, no exploring, just go go go" which, to be fair, is also a fair strategy to follow should one find themselves in a zombie apocalypse.

I'll Leave You With What We All Came Here To See: Hardcore Nudity!

Boobs! Butts! These games have them. I actually don't concur with Jeff's observation that the zombie ladies landing butt-side up were meant to be gratuitous at all, because - and since I realize this is the internet I might well be alone with this opinion - my anaconda don't want none unless you got skin and a pulse, hon. Likewise, Daggerfall's nudie paper doll equipment screen is really so you can dress up your pretty but ineffective Nord bard in clothing as well as armor. Okay, allowing the player to purchase and collect underwear is perhaps a little gratuitous, I'll accept that much. I do recall finding bras as loot after killing these quite unfriendly vampire ladies and wondering what the hell my character's deal was.

Conclusion

My conclusion is.. uh, that.. I guess they're both video games? Will that do? To the comics!

Comics!

Dead Island

No Caption Provided

Deus Ex: Human Revolution?

So ends that trilogy. Back with JC next week. I'm going to finish that damn thing if kills me. Oh and, uh, Spoilers?
So ends that trilogy. Back with JC next week. I'm going to finish that damn thing if kills me. Oh and, uh, Spoilers?

SUPER SPECIAL BONUS COMIC!

So y'all might be wondering why I got me a golden medallion around my knightly neck. Sure doesn't seem like I'd pay $50 does it? I mean, unless you're unfamiliar with my frugal nature, which I guess would be all of you. But this magnanimous donation was made by the same guy who paid for my copy of Chantelise in that one series of comics that started all this MS mess o' mine. You might be wondering why a dude would do such a thing (I know I am), so to paraphrase his words: "I'm a wacky vegan and was likely to spend all that money on nutritional yeast from Trader Joe's anyway." Works for me I suppose.

As per our agreed terms, I'm now creating works commissioned by him about any topic deemed suitable for a video game website. So most of these will be video game related. FYI. My super-appreciative thanks again to WM user omghisam.

The (Kind of Abridged) Story of Mento's Career at Gizmondo Studios Manchester

Based on a true story. Bork bork bork.
Based on a true story. Bork bork bork.

In case you're bothered by the fact it was so short: Yeah, you and me both, buddy. There'll probably be another one of these very soon to make up for it.

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MooseyMcMan

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#2  Edited By MooseyMcMan

I think the zombies fall but up in Dead Island because they're always walking forward, and thus they fall forward.

Also, comics are funny. Yay!

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Video_Game_King

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#3  Edited By Video_Game_King

I'm guessing you had to look up that Japanese, right? (I'd have commented on the games, but I haven't played them. Give me time; I still have to get through Tear Ring Saga....and Shining Force Gaiden: Final Conflict....and Radiant Historia...and my Ranger X blog...and a shitload of other stuff.)

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ArbitraryWater

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#4  Edited By ArbitraryWater

Wait, did you really work at Gizmondo? If so, that's kind of nuts. If not, great comic anyways.

Yeah, for as much hubub as there was regarding Oblivion having featureless nude models of female characters hidden deep within the code (as well as the requisite nude mods because apparently the totally unattractive female character models in Oblivion really need exposed lady parts?), it's kind of hilarious that Daggerfall totally has plenty of naked women, be it succubi, priestesses at certain temples or your female character's own paper doll. Also: that game totally has level scaling too because of its randomly generated nature. Oh well. Daggerfall is so broken in so many ways, and not just from a technical stability angle.

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Mento

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#5  Edited By Mento  Moderator

@MooseyMcMan: Agreed. Just seemed like an unfortunate quirk of the ragdoll system they used, which Jeff almost certainly knew but figured he'd have some fun talking about badonkadonks regardless.

@Video_Game_King: To be fair, you could probably play enough obscure Japanese games to fill a dozen blogs with the amount of time either of the games featured eat up.

Also, I'm waiting for Pepsiman to show up and call me out on the kanji. Or kana. I'm just making her madder, aren't I?

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Video_Game_King

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#6  Edited By Video_Game_King
@Mento
 
いいえ、漢字はいいです。でも、これはPepsimanを怒らせるよ。知っている。ごめんなさい、Pepsimanさん。
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Oni

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#7  Edited By Oni

The End-O-Tron!

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#8  Edited By Fizzy

Zombies fall backwards when you kick them :D

I think there are some similarities, but Dead Island is definitely better!

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core1065

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#9  Edited By core1065

Great stuff, very funny.
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Getz

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#10  Edited By Getz

Is that a fucking Missing No.?! Bravo sir.

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TheDudeOfGaming

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#11  Edited By TheDudeOfGaming

Cool blog brother, I'm just disappointed you didn't mention what happens in Dead Island when 3-4 infected storm your ass out of nowhere.

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#12  Edited By TomA

I was about to skip the text and just post something dickish about how Daggerfall cant be compared to Dead Island. but then I decided to not be a dick, and read the text. You bring up some things I completely forgot about Daggerfall that are really similar to Dead Island. Also, comics rule.

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#13  Edited By ahoodedfigure
@ArbitraryWater: The level scaling of Daggerfall, at least, isn't universal. The human characters are scaled, but the monsters aren't as far as I know, so you do get some sense of progress. The loot scales too, which for someone who prefers a simulation style of play is kind of annoying, but it at least means you don't get Daedric off the bat and never bother to pick anything up ever again.
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#14  Edited By omghisam

YOU DREW ANOTHER FUNNY ZIGGY, MENTO. FYI, NUTRITIONAL YEAST IS DELICIOUS. /MYSTERIOUS VEGAN BENEFACTOR OUT!

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sirdesmond

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#15  Edited By sirdesmond

Comics FTW

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RandomHero666

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#16  Edited By RandomHero666

Hurrah for comics!
I thought Dead Island got easier though, skill tree helps a lot.. as do multiple Zeds Demise swords.

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deactivated-663a0c8d9c4fc

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Interesting comparison, although in general I feel most of the similarities stem from the rather simple fact that Dead Island's extensive roleplaying elements (including conventional ones like skill trees and a focus on loot, but also more controversial design choices such as level scaling) are substantial enough to make comparisons with any "real" RPG like Daggerfall or Oblivion more or less valid.

It might also be worth mentioning that I personally had very few technical issues during my 30 hour playthrough of (the PC version of) Dead Island, so I don't think that game even comes close to being as unstable and unreliable as Daggerfall. Even playing the most patched version of TES2 ever released it's impossible not to fall victim to its plethora of game-breaking bugs, whereas DI's most glaring problems primarily existed during the first days and maybe weeks immediately following the game's launch (especially for North American PC users who got the mistakenly uploaded dev build which other parts of the world never got to "experience" at all).

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#18  Edited By Echo

@Mento: "Watashi wa Error desu" works for I Am Error. You'll be okay.

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#19  Edited By lockwoodx

Great comparison and reminds me why I made the intelligent decision to wait for a steam sale. No way in hell any sane person would waste full price on a buggy POS until it's fixed.

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Elotero

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#20  Edited By Elotero

This was brilliant. Thank you for entertaining me with words.

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#21  Edited By SockLobster

"ching chong" - shigeru miyamoto

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#22  Edited By mtmckinley

I worked at Gizmondo as well... your comic is 100% accurate!

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ShadowMoses900

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#23  Edited By ShadowMoses900


lol I have played Daggerfall and that game is a HUGE mess with bugs and glitches. Hell I'm a pretty hardcore Elder Scrolls/Bethesda fan and I will admit that Daggerfall is my least favorite in the series. Alot of people talk about how great having more "Skills" makes a game better, well these people have never played Daggerfall. Sure it has more "skills" but in reality those "skills" are useless and you only really use a small hadful of them. Like there were language skills in daggerfall, those skills served absolutely NO purpose to the game at all! Aside from that the game was messy and many things didn't make sense, like you would be in a dungeon and find stair cases that go literally no where, or houses that are really small from the outside but inside it's a mansion lol.

 

I haven't played Dead Island yet but I do hear i tis buggy, I hope they patch it soon.

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Absolute_Zero

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#24  Edited By Absolute_Zero

Thought I'd just leave this here (concerning Gizmondo, in case that isn't clear):

Also, yay for membership donations! It's the gift that keeps on giving.