Phil Fish in Hot Water after insulting Japanese Game developer

@Apathylad said:

Yeah, the problem here isn't so much his opinion, but the context of how and where he said it. Nameless Japanese developer praises the movie he just saw at a Q&A panel, he asks a question, only to have him deride modern Japanese development.

to be clear this is my problem as well, when Jon Blow said something about it I didn't care because he backed up his opinion instead of just saying yeah they all suck

@MordeaniisChaos said:

@Shady said:

@MordeaniisChaos said:

@CL60 said:

@MordeaniisChaos

They are typically full of all the worst things in video games. Repetition within a series, not killing a series when it should be, generic character designs (seriously, there are about 3 looks for 90% of games that come out of the east) and ancient design philosophy. Not to mention the bullshit that the few good developers pull by putting ONE DUDES NAME ON IT.

Same can be said about our games.

Oh yes, to an extent that could be said about every piece of entertainment regardless of origin. But most of our at least mildly successful stuff has variety, save for the CoDs and all that. But Halo, Gears of War, Ghost Recon/Rainbow Six, Arma and a bunch of other games keep even that genre more unique and refreshing than the eastern equivilant, being the JRPG.

You listed games I think have honestly stagnated with each progressive entry. Then again, I'm not sure what you equate uniqueness and freshness with.

Standing apart from their peers. Just because there are a million games cribbing of of Gears of War, most of them are shit, or add a lot of variety to the game. If you buy into the term "Gears of War clone" for anything but that one weird japanese game with towers and the lady and germs or something.... That looked like a japanese Gears of War, then yeah, your going to think Gears of War is super generic and stuff, but it stands out from it's peers, ie high quality well recieved games. It's a third person game but it doesn't feel like other games, and it's a great series.Also, there are three of them. Not 20.

Halo, how many biblical scifi shooters have you played in the last couple of years? Reach and ODST while similar in over arching gameplay, mixed things up in tone and mechanics enough to keep those games interesting. Yeah, Halo 4 is coming and its seeming like another Halo game but who knows, it might be a cool. It might change things up in a meaningful selection of ways. But there aren't a lot of "Halos" out there. There aren't even really a lot of Sci Fi shooters.

Ghost Recon and Rainbow Six offer up a more tactical experience, and vary pretty significantly in feel and presentation, though yeah, they are realistic contemporary shootin games, but they handle and feel pretty different. And there aren't a ton of tactical shooters out there that get into the public's eye.

And I don't even need to argue Arma's case because that shit is nuts.

Also, Starcraft, Diablo, Dragon Age, C&C, AoE:O, Portal, MOBAs, TF2, Uncharted, The Last of Us, I Am Alive. There are plenty of major games with a lot of diversity from one another. Name ANY game and there will be derivatives of it. CoD has a million clones, every game has games that try to play off it's success. The important thing is to stand out amongst your peers. Yes, shooters are popular. So are RTS games, so are RPGs, so are weird indie games. So is fuckin minecraft. And when you consider what Gears of War's actual peers are, ie Halo and CoD and Ghost Recon and Arma and Deus Ex, ie quality polished products that are popular with consumers, it's not exactly identical to those games, it's pretty damn different.

You didn't disprove my point. However, you did list more games that I would admit have left their mark in gaming's history though I wouldn't list a game that isn't even out yet.

Another classic case of people purposefully ignoring context and underlying meaning, so they can rage and riot about an unimportant sentence uttered by a largely irrelevant guy, who can't seem to finish his damn game.

@Hailinel said:

@Buzzkill

@Hailinel said:

@Buzzkill

@Hailinel said:

He's entitled to his opinion, but he chose the worst time and manner to express it.

I sympathize with him.

That's fine. I don't. He's getting what he asked for.

He's also getting a ton of free publicity at the expense of telling the truth in a tactless way. There's always 2 sides to every coin.

He's also ensured that I will never spend a dime on his game. That is, if he ever bothers to release it.

That's pretty immature. You won't buy a game that could possibly be very good just 'cause the dude who made it doesn't like something you like? Grow up.

I'll say I would have agreed with him this time last year, but since then I have discovered that I actually really like Japanese games especially JRPGs. I think he expressed himself bluntly and poorly. I can understand where he is coming form and I think he is echoing the feelings of many int he gaming community who feel that Japan has expereinced a decline in quality lately. I don't agree with him, but I understand it. I really wish he hadn't made such a blanket statement because it really hurt his argument.

@Hailinel said:

@Buzzkill

@Hailinel said:

@Buzzkill

@Hailinel said:

He's entitled to his opinion, but he chose the worst time and manner to express it.

I sympathize with him.

That's fine. I don't. He's getting what he asked for.

He's also getting a ton of free publicity at the expense of telling the truth in a tactless way. There's always 2 sides to every coin.

He's also ensured that I will never spend a dime on his game. That is, if he ever bothers to release it.

That's pretty immature. You won't buy a game that could possibly be very good just 'cause the dude who made it doesn't like something you like? Grow up.

For me, Japan still produce high quality, unique and interesting games. I like how they often bring something new to the table, even if it's just a small gameplay mechanic

More Japanese games featured in my top 10 of last year than anywhere else in the world

I don't care what the guy thinks, but man, this is the type of doucheyness that gives indie devs a bad name. 
 
The Japanese dev asking the question was complimenting Fish, in front of a room filled with peers.  His response was really dickish.It shows the guy lacks tact, courtesy and professionalism.

@AlexW00d: Playing his game, will mean I'm supporting and ultimately making him richer. Why would i want to do that, when the guy is a chief

I should add, he *is* French Canadian, so this kind of behaviour is expected of him. Oh don't get angry, I'm French Canadian.

@Vegetable_Side_Dish: What you said would probably be relevant if this wasn't about some throw away comment that has no effect on anything at all.

If this guy was a criminal or something then more power to you, but this, no.

Rude. Fish could maybe learn to use some tact.

After being asked a question by someone who had traveled across the Pacific, who had given him praise, he responds with a single unqualified comment. He could have, and should have, been more constructive with his criticism. He is God's gift to game developers, after all, so he should know exactly how to fix Japanese game design.

@Vegetable_Side_Dish: What you said would probably be relevant if this wasn't about some throw away comment that has no effect on anything at all.

If this guy was a criminal or something then more power to you, but this, no.

@Vegetable_Side_Dish: Well if it's all black and white with you whatever, but I can see in shades of grey too. Lucky me.

Sounds like an all around unpleasant person. It's almost like he is going out of his way to be a dick. Sure, he's entitled to his opinion, but there is a huge semantic difference between:

Japanese games suck.

and

I really dislike Japanese games.

So I guess fuck the guy, then.

@Vegetable_Side_Dish: Well if it's all black and white with you whatever, but I can see in shades of grey too. Lucky me.

All he really did was make an ass of himself in front of a relatively small group of people. It's not like he's the ambassador of western game development and represents the entire industry. He is just one opinionated developer that lacks tact.

Honestly, the most interesting part about this article to me are the translated 2ch comments. I'm kinda curious what the discussions on Japanese gaming forums are like, for some reason.

@Mr_Skeleton: And so does western game design. All depends on what you like.

@Vegetable_Side_Dish: Well if it's all black and white with you whatever, but I can see in shades of grey too. Lucky me.

Haven't people been saying "Japanese games suck" for like the past decade? I don't agree with Phil's sweeping generalizations but it's a simple fact that the Japanese are incredibly behind the west as far as game development goes. 

HEY! his game isn't even retail! lol

It was a dick move and kind of a dumb statement in general. 

Ohh the irony.. considering Fez is basically an Echocrome (ya know a Japanese develop game) rip off. Not dropping a cent into that jackass game.

@Milkman said:

Haven't people been saying "Japanese games suck" for like the past decade? I don't agree with Phil's sweeping generalizations but it's a simple fact that the Japanese are incredibly behind the west as far as game development goes.

In terms of innovation? I doubt it

Last Year: Ghost Trick, Yakuza 4, Dark Souls

Binary Domain was better than any recent 3rd person shooter

Upcoming

Journey, Spirit Camera, Ni No Kuni, Gravity Rush

@Milkman said:

Haven't people been saying "Japanese games suck" for like the past decade? I don't agree with Phil's sweeping generalizations but it's a simple fact that the Japanese are incredibly behind the west as far as game development goes.

simple fact? nope, it's all opinions. don't be an idiot

@bvilleneuve said:

I dislike most Japanese games. Their design principles, their plotlines, their aesthetics, most of it just doesn't click with me most of the time, even though a couple of my favorite games come from Japan. "Your games just suck" is Phil Fish's way of saying "I don't care for most of your games, even though I recognize that they have their audience." I'm not saying Fish was trolling or anything like that, I'm just saying sometimes when people say things you have to think about what they were really saying instead of immediately jumping on the righteous indignation train.

I can relate to this argument, nonetheless I do enjoy turn based tactical RPGs. However, there is a difference between saying "Japanese games do not appeal to my taste" and saying "Your games suck".

@Milkman said:

Haven't people been saying "Japanese games suck" for like the past decade? I don't agree with Phil's sweeping generalizations but it's a simple fact that the Japanese are incredibly behind the west as far as game development goes.

In terms of innovation? I doubt it

Last Year: Ghost Trick, Yakuza 4, Dark Souls

Binary Domain was better than any recent 3rd person shooter

Upcoming

Journey, Spirit Camera, Ni No Kuni, Gravity Rush

@Buzzkill said:

@Hailinel said:

He's entitled to his opinion, but he chose the worst time and manner to express it.

I sympathize with him.

Good old western elitism.. much.

@Milkman said:

it's a simple fact that the Japanese are incredibly behind the west as far as game development goes.

as far as your opinion goes.

@Milkman said:

@cosi83 said:

@Milkman said:

Haven't people been saying "Japanese games suck" for like the past decade? I don't agree with Phil's sweeping generalizations but it's a simple fact that the Japanese are incredibly behind the west as far as game development goes.

In terms of innovation? I doubt it

Last Year: Ghost Trick, Yakuza 4, Dark Souls

Binary Domain was better than any recent 3rd person shooter

Upcoming

Journey, Spirit Camera, Ni No Kuni, Gravity Rush

So, there were three interesting Japanese games last year? Wow, great. I'm not saying all Japanese games suck. That's why I said I don't agree with all of Phil's generalizations. But as I look at the games I enjoyed from last year or the most critically acclaimed games from last year, the ratio of western games (or just non-Japanese games) to Japanese games is way off.

the ratio of the 'western' world to japan: USA has almost 4 times as many people as Japan on it's own, plus canada, germany, france, UK...

I think someone should chart the correlation of people angry about Phil Fish's comments to people with anime or JRPG-related avatars - maybe something handy, like a Venn diagram?

The thing is, he isn't actually wrong. Sure he could've phrase it nicer. But his comment about their games is actually right. The majority of Japanese games sucks.

The thing is, he isn't actually wrong. Sure he could've phrase it nicer. But his comment about their games is actually right. The majority of Japanese games sucks.

I have said that for quite some time. Nobody's come at me.

Didn't Phil Fish kind of get whiney a while ago when he thought Indie Game-the HBO show would be a Big Bang Theory show?

Seems like he is prone to over reacting. Makes me wonder why his FEZ partner left.

And yeah he should have more tact, if your presenting something you kind of have to be a nice person. While japanese games aren't what they use to be, because a lot of really talented people left some big companies, Japanese games definitely don't "suck." Look at Bayonetta, Vanquish, Dead Rising (which has problems but is pretty unique and fun when you get into it), Valkyria Chronicles, Most Nintendo stuff, the Yakuza games, Dark Souls, Demons Souls, the Metal Gear Solid games, I heard Binary Domain was good along with Xenoblade, Shadows of the Damned not to mention some other great games by Capcom and Square Enix, that may not have Matsuno, Inafune, Mikami, Kamiya, or Sacaguchi working on them, but at they still make good stuff.

@Hailinel said:

@Deleth

The thing is, he isn't actually wrong. Sure he could've phrase it nicer. But his comment about their games is actually right. The majority of Japanese games sucks.

Opinion is not fact.

No, but facts are facts. And the truth is that Japanese games didn't change a bit for a very time and in generally aren't very good. The only thing that evolved is the graphics and without the Japanese bubble many of their publishers would've run out of money a long time ago.

@Hailinel said:

@Deleth

The thing is, he isn't actually wrong. Sure he could've phrase it nicer. But his comment about their games is actually right. The majority of Japanese games sucks.

Opinion is not fact.

No, but facts are facts. And the truth is that Japanese games didn't change a bit for a very time and in generally aren't very good. The only thing that evolved is the graphics and without the Japanese bubble many of their publishers would've run out of money a long time ago.

@Milkman said:

@cosi83 said:

@Milkman said:

Haven't people been saying "Japanese games suck" for like the past decade? I don't agree with Phil's sweeping generalizations but it's a simple fact that the Japanese are incredibly behind the west as far as game development goes.

In terms of innovation? I doubt it

Last Year: Ghost Trick, Yakuza 4, Dark Souls

Binary Domain was better than any recent 3rd person shooter

Upcoming

Journey, Spirit Camera, Ni No Kuni, Gravity Rush

So, there were three interesting Japanese games last year? Wow, great. I'm not saying all Japanese games suck. That's why I said I don't agree with all of Phil's generalizations. But as I look at the games I enjoyed from last year or the most critically acclaimed games from last year, the ratio of western games (or just non-Japanese games) to Japanese games is way off.

the ratio of the 'western' world to japan: USA has almost 4 times as many people as Japan on it's own, plus canada, germany, france, UK...

@Deleth said:

And the truth is that Japanese games didn't change a bit for a very time and in generally aren't very good.

You say that as thought there's a causal relationship between the two.

@Milkman said:

@Animasta said:

@Milkman said:

@cosi83 said:

@Milkman said:

Haven't people been saying "Japanese games suck" for like the past decade? I don't agree with Phil's sweeping generalizations but it's a simple fact that the Japanese are incredibly behind the west as far as game development goes.

In terms of innovation? I doubt it

Last Year: Ghost Trick, Yakuza 4, Dark Souls

Binary Domain was better than any recent 3rd person shooter

Upcoming

Journey, Spirit Camera, Ni No Kuni, Gravity Rush

So, there were three interesting Japanese games last year? Wow, great. I'm not saying all Japanese games suck. That's why I said I don't agree with all of Phil's generalizations. But as I look at the games I enjoyed from last year or the most critically acclaimed games from last year, the ratio of western games (or just non-Japanese games) to Japanese games is way off.

the ratio of the 'western' world to japan: USA has almost 4 times as many people as Japan on it's own, plus canada, germany, france, UK...

When has that ever stopped them before? Japan was the powerhouse of games industry for decades. Now, they're mostly an afterthought.

western game development was (largely) relegated to the personal computers until around like, 2000 or so.

Lol at this thread. No interest in responding to idiots but I will say for those that want to know another "gem" Phil Fish has said: Claims his game won't be coming to PC because it's a couch game and you can't play PC games on the couch.

@Deleth said:

@Hailinel said:

@Deleth

The thing is, he isn't actually wrong. Sure he could've phrase it nicer. But his comment about their games is actually right. The majority of Japanese games sucks.

Opinion is not fact.

No, but facts are facts. And the truth is that Japanese games didn't change a bit for a very time and in generally aren't very good.

By virtue of the fact that I can disagree with you, you are stating opinions. Now that, is a fact.

If it is any consolation, Japanese largely consider Western games to suck. Especially first person shooters. There isn't even a western game in the top ten games sold in Japan this or last or any year.

@Milkman said:

@Animasta said:

@Milkman said:

@cosi83 said:

@Milkman said:

Haven't people been saying "Japanese games suck" for like the past decade? I don't agree with Phil's sweeping generalizations but it's a simple fact that the Japanese are incredibly behind the west as far as game development goes.

In terms of innovation? I doubt it

Last Year: Ghost Trick, Yakuza 4, Dark Souls

Binary Domain was better than any recent 3rd person shooter

Upcoming

Journey, Spirit Camera, Ni No Kuni, Gravity Rush

So, there were three interesting Japanese games last year? Wow, great. I'm not saying all Japanese games suck. That's why I said I don't agree with all of Phil's generalizations. But as I look at the games I enjoyed from last year or the most critically acclaimed games from last year, the ratio of western games (or just non-Japanese games) to Japanese games is way off.

the ratio of the 'western' world to japan: USA has almost 4 times as many people as Japan on it's own, plus canada, germany, france, UK...

When has that ever stopped them before? Japan was the powerhouse of games industry for decades. Now, they're mostly an afterthought.

western game development was (largely) relegated to the personal computers until around like, 2000 or so.

My favourite games are made in Japan, and my least favourite games are made in Japan.

@Old_Corncob said:

If it is any consolation, Japanese largely consider Western games to suck. Especially first person shooters. There isn't even a western game in the top ten games sold in Japan this or last or any year.

Uh...

@Deleth said:

@Hailinel said:

@Deleth

The thing is, he isn't actually wrong. Sure he could've phrase it nicer. But his comment about their games is actually right. The majority of Japanese games sucks.

Opinion is not fact.

No, but facts are facts. And the truth is that Japanese games didn't change a bit for a very time and in generally aren't very good. The only thing that evolved is the graphics and without the Japanese bubble many of their publishers would've run out of money a long time ago.

I feel like this statement could be easily be debunked if were to pull up a greatest games of all time list then read the words Legend of Zelda Ocarina of Time, Chrono Trigger, Fina Fantasy VII, Final Fantasty VI, Mario, Street Fighter 2, and Super Metroid. And then say "well they haven't changed, so they still are the greatest."

And yes the games have changed, play Bayonetta then go back and try to play Devil May Cry 1.

I suppose you could say that this Fish is out of water now.... (I'm sorry I had to make the bad joke.) In reality though, I largely disagree with his opinion here, which normally I would be okay with because I mean, everyone has an opinion about something, and I can respect most people's opinions on things. From what I can tell though, Phil decided to be a total ass about it, and I completely disagree with that. Maybe if he would of said something more along the lines of "I don't really like most of your games but I can understand why some people might" instead of just flat out telling them that they all suck and should stop making games, I would care less, but just the way and the context it was in is kinda what gets to me here. I know nothing about Fez, so I'm not going to judge him on development cycle or anything like that, but you know what they say "No publicity is bad publicity" and damn, did he ever get some publicity today.