im sure im late to the party and its already been said, but shouldnt we just ignore this guy? all the rebuttals and replies and flaming bags of dogshit left at his front door only serve to validate whatever he says. whenever someone posts on a forum with a message thats definately gonna piss people off the first reply is usually, "dont feed the troll" and the whole gaming community going insane over this has only served to do exactly that. obviously the guy is wrong but he's probably laughing his ass off right now that he managed to get a community he obviously has no love for so enraged. well thats my 2 cents take it for what you will
edit: this refers to eberts recent statement that videogames can never be art, here is the original link for the unaware
http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2010/04/video_games_can_never_be_art.html
regarding mr eberts little statement
This topic is locked from further discussion.
I think of video games as an improved version of a movie. It takes the plot of the movie and makes it personal because you, the player, are in control
I don't blame him.
He is an old man rooted in his old ways. He is also a film critic, and thus elitist by nature.
nah i couldnt care less. what gets to me is how every second gaming website feels the need to counter argue
I don't get why people are so pissed off about this. Jeff has been saying that video games are not art for years now, and nobody gets mad at him. Skip to about 1:20:
I think that both Jeff and Ebert are wrong in this case.
I think that once again the Penny Arcade guys have had the best response to this http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/4/21/
But seriously how tired is this whole debate and who cares what Ebert thinks. He's just one old man who doesn't get it
Hey thanks for making a blog where you make sure some film critic who doesn't care about know knows you don't care about him. Gamers are so silly. Its pretty clear most of you idiots are as unqualified to appraise art as he is to appraise a videogame's art status. I love a lot of you use his years of experience against him, as if being old makes him unqualified to speak, as opposed to all knowing wiki using 15 year olds. Every dismissive response I see from you kids just seems to validate his statement by revealing how primitive the gamer audience is. His article is a response with reasoned citations met to inspire debate. The gamer response to him is full of pejorative labels and ad homenim attacks, you know, the ammunition of people who are clearly right? lolz. Not all of you are doing this, obviously movie people have equally stupid representatives, just go to imdb. But they also have the occasional civil discourse, which has been completely absent in every response I've read to Ebert thus far. If I could just take a quote from the article that a lot of you never bothered to read:" nah i couldnt care less. what gets to me is how every second gaming website feels the need to counter argue "
" Why are gamers so intensely concerned, anyway, that games be defined as art? Bobby Fischer, Michael Jordan and Dick Butkus never said they thought their games were an art form. Nor did Shi Hua Chen, winner of the $500,000 World Series of Mah Jong in 2009. Why aren't gamers content to play their games and simply enjoy themselves? They have my blessing, not that they care."
" nah i couldnt care less. what gets to me is how every second gaming website feels the need to counter argue "If you actually didn't care, you wouldn't feel the need to say so. Handsome is dead on.
2. it wasnt made to let mr ebert know i dont care, it was made to state that i believe we shouldnt argue over his opinion
3. no part of your argument was actually typed in my post
4. refering to gamers as a bunch of idiots is disgusting elitist behavior
5. fyi i did read the article, so way to pull points out of thin air.
6. when did i attack his credibilty, i simply stated that he's wrong and that we should not argue over his opinion
7. notice the message of my post is the same as your little quote, so your attempt to look intelligent has just back fired against you
8. touchy arent we?
" @Porcelain_Snake said:I'm sorry but as a gamer I just can't take this man's opinion seriously. He is an accomplished film critic that knows next to nothing about games. The reason I care about what he says is that there are definitely people out there that view Roger Ebert as an authority on everything. Some people will take him seriously and that just makes me sad. But you are correct, it doesn't justify the childish rage response from the gaming community.Hey thanks for making a blog where you make sure some film critic who doesn't care about know knows you don't care about him. Gamers are so silly. Its pretty clear most of you idiots are as unqualified to appraise art as he is to appraise a videogame's art status. I love a lot of you use his years of experience against him, as if being old makes him unqualified to speak, as opposed to all knowing wiki using 15 year olds. Every dismissive response I see from you kids just seems to validate his statement by revealing how primitive the gamer audience is. His article is a response with reasoned citations met to inspire debate. The gamer response to him is full of pejorative labels and ad homenim attacks, you know, the ammunition of people who are clearly right? lolz. Not all of you are doing this, obviously movie people have equally stupid representatives, just go to imdb. But they also have the occasional civil discourse, which has been completely absent in every response I've read to Ebert thus far. If I could just take a quote from the article that a lot of you never bothered to read:" nah i couldnt care less. what gets to me is how every second gaming website feels the need to counter argue "
" Why are gamers so intensely concerned, anyway, that games be defined as art? Bobby Fischer, Michael Jordan and Dick Butkus never said they thought their games were an art form. Nor did Shi Hua Chen, winner of the $500,000 World Series of Mah Jong in 2009. Why aren't gamers content to play their games and simply enjoy themselves? They have my blessing, not that they care." "
Anyway, he compares videogames to basketball and Mah Jong. This tells me that he considers all videogames to be like Pong, rather than a legitimate storytelling medium. This completely invalidates his opinion IMO.
I've never played a game where the best way to tell the story would be in a game. So I guess I don't see how its a legitimate storytelling medium anymore than an action movie, and I wouldn't call action movies art either. I also wouldn't have the audacity to say games are a legitimate storytelling medium then cite a bunch of games with none interactive cutscenes as proof. Because, as people who read both articles know, that only proves games are "art" during their movie scenes, when you have no control, not during the game part. As in, GTA4 has an interesting story, and its told through cutscenes which you don't control, and then you go out and mindlessly kill people. People don't extoll the storytelling virtues of what happens during the game, but during the cutscenes. So with that in mind, what are these amazing game stories you have in mind? I can think of maybe two. Out of thousands of games." @ryanwho said:
I'm sorry but as a gamer I just can't take this man's opinion seriously. He is an accomplished film critic that knows next to nothing about games. The reason I care about what he says is that there are definitely people out there that view Roger Ebert as an authority on everything. Some people will take him seriously and that just makes me sad. But you are correct, it doesn't justify the childish rage response from the gaming community. Anyway, he compares videogames to basketball and Mah Jong. This tells me that he considers all videogames to be like Pong, rather than a legitimate storytelling medium. This completely invalidates his opinion IMO. "" @Porcelain_Snake said:
Hey thanks for making a blog where you make sure some film critic who doesn't care about know knows you don't care about him. Gamers are so silly. Its pretty clear most of you idiots are as unqualified to appraise art as he is to appraise a videogame's art status. I love a lot of you use his years of experience against him, as if being old makes him unqualified to speak, as opposed to all knowing wiki using 15 year olds. Every dismissive response I see from you kids just seems to validate his statement by revealing how primitive the gamer audience is. His article is a response with reasoned citations met to inspire debate. The gamer response to him is full of pejorative labels and ad homenim attacks, you know, the ammunition of people who are clearly right? lolz. Not all of you are doing this, obviously movie people have equally stupid representatives, just go to imdb. But they also have the occasional civil discourse, which has been completely absent in every response I've read to Ebert thus far. If I could just take a quote from the article that a lot of you never bothered to read:" nah i couldnt care less. what gets to me is how every second gaming website feels the need to counter argue "
" Why are gamers so intensely concerned, anyway, that games be defined as art? Bobby Fischer, Michael Jordan and Dick Butkus never said they thought their games were an art form. Nor did Shi Hua Chen, winner of the $500,000 World Series of Mah Jong in 2009. Why aren't gamers content to play their games and simply enjoy themselves? They have my blessing, not that they care." "
And you might say "even thinking of one disproves his assessment that games can never be art" and I would remind you then that HE DIDN'T SAY THAT IN HIS ARTICLE. He intentionally named it that, but he explains why in the article. That's how I can tell who's read the article and who hasn't, and that's probably why he did what he did.
" I remain convinced that in principle, video games cannot be art. Perhaps it is foolish of me to say "never," because never, as Rick Wakeman informs us, is a long, long time."
In other words, as long as games are defined the way they are, they can't be art. That's his assessment. Yes if you start defining the cutscenes that you don't interact with as the game, then I guess games can be art. But changing the definition of something would be a silly way to respond to his assessment. The argument people who disagree with him should be making is that games can't be art, fine, but videogames aren't JUST games. Chess is just chess. Videogames have the rule parameters and winning conditions, but they also have several other NONE GAME aspects which can be artistic. And those none game aspects can occasionally enhance the game part of the videogame. I would cite the end of SOTC as a good example.
In my mind even if you disagree completely with Mr. Ebert this is not something to get enraged about, it just means that you and him have very differing opinions. There are always people out there with opinions wildly different to yours and while rebuttals and debates can provide interesting discussion of the topic it's nothing to get angry about, it's just the way it is.
" @S0ndor said:Every single Bioware game except for Shattered Steel. For me it's how games combine so many different ways of telling a story into one hugely enjoyable bundle. They tell stories through audio logs, scenery, cutscenes, music, dialogue trees, logbook entries and during regular gameplay as well. Movies and paintings you can only watch, books you can only read, music you can only listen to, but games stimulate you in many different ways. Anyway, that's why I consider it to be a legitimate storytelling medium. Whether thatmakes it art I do not know. Some people consider a bunch of circles and cubes on a canvas a beautiful piece of art, whereas I consider it to be a load of fucking bullshit.So it's subjective for me at least." @ryanwho said:I've never played a game where the best way to tell the story would be in a game. So I guess I don't see how its a legitimate storytelling medium anymore than an action movie, and I wouldn't call action movies art either. I also wouldn't have the audacity to say games are a legitimate storytelling medium then cite a bunch of games with none interactive cutscenes as proof. Because, as people who read both articles know, that only proves games are "art" when during their movie scenes, not during the game part. So with that in mind, what are these amazing game stories you have in mind? I can think of maybe two. Out of thousands of games. "" @Porcelain_Snake said:I'm sorry but as a gamer I just can't take this man's opinion seriously. He is an accomplished film critic that knows next to nothing about games. The reason I care about what he says is that there are definitely people out there that view Roger Ebert as an authority on everything. Some people will take him seriously and that just makes me sad. But you are correct, it doesn't justify the childish rage response from the gaming community. Anyway, he compares videogames to basketball and Mah Jong. This tells me that he considers all videogames to be like Pong, rather than a legitimate storytelling medium. This completely invalidates his opinion IMO. "Hey thanks for making a blog where you make sure some film critic who doesn't care about know knows you don't care about him. Gamers are so silly. Its pretty clear most of you idiots are as unqualified to appraise art as he is to appraise a videogame's art status. I love a lot of you use his years of experience against him, as if being old makes him unqualified to speak, as opposed to all knowing wiki using 15 year olds. Every dismissive response I see from you kids just seems to validate his statement by revealing how primitive the gamer audience is. His article is a response with reasoned citations met to inspire debate. The gamer response to him is full of pejorative labels and ad homenim attacks, you know, the ammunition of people who are clearly right? lolz. Not all of you are doing this, obviously movie people have equally stupid representatives, just go to imdb. But they also have the occasional civil discourse, which has been completely absent in every response I've read to Ebert thus far. If I could just take a quote from the article that a lot of you never bothered to read:" nah i couldnt care less. what gets to me is how every second gaming website feels the need to counter argue "
" Why are gamers so intensely concerned, anyway, that games be defined as art? Bobby Fischer, Michael Jordan and Dick Butkus never said they thought their games were an art form. Nor did Shi Hua Chen, winner of the $500,000 World Series of Mah Jong in 2009. Why aren't gamers content to play their games and simply enjoy themselves? They have my blessing, not that they care." "
" @Porcelain_Snake said:The counter point here is why does he feel the need to disclaim against the idea that video games are art? Painters consider their paintings art, and musicians consider their music art. Poets consider their poetry art, and film makers consider their movies art. So why does Ebert feel so compelled to fight against a new medium trying to justify itself as an art form? Somehow, I get the feeling that if he can answer that question, he'll answer the one in your quotes.Hey thanks for making a blog where you make sure some film critic who doesn't care about know knows you don't care about him. Gamers are so silly. Its pretty clear most of you idiots are as unqualified to appraise art as he is to appraise a videogame's art status. I love a lot of you use his years of experience against him, as if being old makes him unqualified to speak, as opposed to all knowing wiki using 15 year olds. Every dismissive response I see from you kids just seems to validate his statement by revealing how primitive the gamer audience is. His article is a response with reasoned citations met to inspire debate. The gamer response to him is full of pejorative labels and ad homenim attacks, you know, the ammunition of people who are clearly right? lolz. Not all of you are doing this, obviously movie people have equally stupid representatives, just go to imdb. But they also have the occasional civil discourse, which has been completely absent in every response I've read to Ebert thus far. If I could just take a quote from the article that a lot of you never bothered to read:" nah i couldnt care less. what gets to me is how every second gaming website feels the need to counter argue "
" Why are gamers so intensely concerned, anyway, that games be defined as art? Bobby Fischer, Michael Jordan and Dick Butkus never said they thought their games were an art form. Nor did Shi Hua Chen, winner of the $500,000 World Series of Mah Jong in 2009. Why aren't gamers content to play their games and simply enjoy themselves? They have my blessing, not that they care." "
And its just sort of weird to see how passionate people are about this. Does his validation make a game any more or less enjoyable? What's the endgame of "winning" this? I just don't get it.
My feelings on "games are art."
Who. Fucking. Cares.
A game is a game is a game. What does it matter that it's art, really? If it's considered art will it suddenly become better? Will it become more enjoyable? Maybe if you're a cunt it will, but otherwise nothing changes whether games are considered art or not. You feel the game your playing is art? Good for you. Art doesn't have to be called art to be art. Hell, things that aren't even art are considered art. Supposedly all forms of expression are art, from what I hear.
But, in the end... does it really matter?
@ebert : You're out of context in saying that videogames are 'not art'. They are, by definition and practice, art. They are filled with art in every measure, from design schema to functional structure to the pieces of the game itself which make it a visual and aural medium. All of the pieces are created with human flourish and artistic intent. Videogames cannot and should not be equated to board games like Go, Mahjong or Chess, (the beauty and substance of those board games is not in the quality of the board or the design of its pieces, it is solely in the board games' mechanics and this runs entirely contra to videogame design methodology where mechanics certainly matter as a matter of them being games in nature but their design is what makes them attractive and emotionally resonant experiences), but rather can be equated quite logically to architecture, ie a process where form and function coexist to provide a utilitarian environment which can be, if designed well, pleasing to the mind and eye. So if architecture can be art then by proxy of logic so can videogames. It is a certainty that in terms of the spyglass of value judgment, neecritical appreciation, some games will be more appreciable as 'art' than others but that is only by measure of the sliding scale of value judgment. Even 'bad' art is still art and 50 years ago many art critics were of the opinion that Andy Warhol's askew riffing on Kitsch a la 'Pop Art' was not 'art'. Were they right or is it more likely that those critics were out of context and so could not see past their own egos and limits of perception to be able to fully appreciate the artistry of his works? I put it to you, Mr Ebert, that you are like they were, utterly trapped in a context which has since passed and so find yourself at rim of a modern technological abyss which stares back into you. It's time to leap into darkness and open your mind. Not doing so will only leave you more staid as this technocratic world moves more apace and you will either be forgotten, your context eroded into nothingness as all our contexts eventually do or worse still, you may be remembered as the man who wouldn't see the world as it really was at the dawn of a new millennium. Neither context is really appealing and you are still very much alive for now. So be brave, good sir, and try and find a place in yourself where you can at the very least appreciate the artistry, if not the art, in videogames. Maybe one day you will then be open to experiencing the art of videogames too.
Sincerely and with much respect,
(yes, I mailed this to him)
@ryanwho: You always play devil's advocate and it's really REALLY boring. First it was supporting the ludicrous idea that Mass Effect has too much sex and then it was something else equally nebulous and ridiculous and now it's this videogames as art discussion. Snore. Find something more interesting and valuable to do with your time please. Either you play videogames and get it or you don't. If you don't, great, but then don't pretend that you want a 'civil discussion' because all you really want is YET ANOTHER forum to tell people what you think and then act faux perplexed that they don't agree with you. It's really boring to see you looking down your nose at people all the time. You're neither haughty nor particularly intellectually stimulating. You're just a crushing bore.
I actually agree with him, and for a game to be art I think you would have to play it EXACTLY the way it was meant to be played. Once you add choice to something it becomes the player's expression, not the artist's.
I also don't understand why people are so adamant about video games being accepted as art. I know for me personally , that wont immediately qualify the ridiculous amount of time and money I've spent on them.
Sure most games out there doesn't have much artistic merit, but neither does movies like SAW and hot tub tme machine, yet they belong to the same medium as one that is considered one. It doesn't matter whether its video games, cars (both of which have been attacked for never being to be art), or music and film (yeah, insert some crappy singer and movie here), the enthusiast for both will bring thier own artistic vision to it, which is why art is never constrained by its medium but rather its maker.
Just thought I’d list a few games that pull off story telling outside of cut scenes to discredit ryanwhos asinine argument.
System shock series - Being stalked through corridors by a foe that watches you via security monitors, represented by a chilling inhuman face, whom you can’t attack as she doesn’t exist in the same plane of existence as you. The feeling of being truly helpless and trapped that can only be achieved in an interactive medium.
Silent hill 2 -being alone in a small town filled with monsters and insane people as a weak character who can barely defend himself, with an unstoppable sadist tormentor antagonising you throughout. once again a very real feeling of helplessness and paranoia as a player
Bioshock - swimming out of a plane crash and emerging in a strange new city, with no bearings or understanding, where you have the option to explore and find out more about your surroundings, and you literally live every footstep of your journey
Thief - silently sneaking your way through a mansion, holding your breath as a guard walks 2 inches away from you as you hide in the shadows. This is something a movie simply can’t replicate as you aren’t in control of the character or seeing through his eyes.
I think that covers the point fairly nicely, feel free to add if you think of any other good examples
" @ryanwho said:I don't know that I would qualify two blogs as an extreme compulsion. He made a blog and it got a lot of responses because of his standing. And someone managed to give him a civil counterpoint and he just responded to that. In the muddle of cheap attacks like the ones you're seeing in this thread from people who just aren't capable of having a debate without creating an enemy, in the muddle of petty easily ignorable children someone made a big enough impact to compel Ebert to respond." @Porcelain_Snake said:The counter point here is why does he feel the need to disclaim against the idea that video games are art? Painters consider their paintings art, and musicians consider their music art. Poets consider their poetry art, and film makers consider their movies art. Sowhy does Ebert feel so compelled to fight against a new medium trying to justify itself as an art form? Somehow, I get the feeling that if he can answer that question, he'll answer the one in your quotes. "Hey thanks for making a blog where you make sure some film critic who doesn't care about know knows you don't care about him. Gamers are so silly. Its pretty clear most of you idiots are as unqualified to appraise art as he is to appraise a videogame's art status. I love a lot of you use his years of experience against him, as if being old makes him unqualified to speak, as opposed to all knowing wiki using 15 year olds. Every dismissive response I see from you kids just seems to validate his statement by revealing how primitive the gamer audience is. His article is a response with reasoned citations met to inspire debate. The gamer response to him is full of pejorative labels and ad homenim attacks, you know, the ammunition of people who are clearly right? lolz. Not all of you are doing this, obviously movie people have equally stupid representatives, just go to imdb. But they also have the occasional civil discourse, which has been completely absent in every response I've read to Ebert thus far. If I could just take a quote from the article that a lot of you never bothered to read:" nah i couldnt care less. what gets to me is how every second gaming website feels the need to counter argue "
" Why are gamers so intensely concerned, anyway, that games be defined as art? Bobby Fischer, Michael Jordan and Dick Butkus never said they thought their games were an art form. Nor did Shi Hua Chen, winner of the $500,000 World Series of Mah Jong in 2009. Why aren't gamers content to play their games and simply enjoy themselves? They have my blessing, not that they care." "
But Ebert was approached to blog on this again, he didn't decide one day to make this his mission. I don't particularly think he's all that passionate about it, he just happened to rile a very load subset of people and its being made into a huge deal. At the end of the day, its just his opinion. And most people recognize that. Its a small minority of people foaming at the mouth typing as loud as they can who want to pretend the entire gaming community is behind them that are making his opinion into a huge deal. Hell, he'll probably never follow up on this for how invested he is in his stance. Let the children keep raging, he's got a job to do.
I like comparing your first post and your last post for contrast. In essence you've become what you were complaining about and even though most of my replies have been reasons for people not to care about the blog (which was your point at the beginning) you've decided to hijack your own thread and make it about leaving dogshit on his doorstep, to paraphrase. Good job, sport.
i was leaving dogshit at YOUR doorstep. you stated, quote: "I've never played a game where the best way to tell the story would be in a game. " so i proved you wrong. try harder next time, troll." I like comparing your first post and your last post for contrast. In essence you've become what you were complaining about and even though most of my replies have been reasons for people not to care about the blog (which was your point at the beginning) you've decided to hijack your own thread and make it about leaving dogshit on his doorstep, to paraphrase. Good job, sport. "
" I don't blame him. He is an old man rooted in his old ways. He is also a film critic, and thus elitist by nature. "Ebert may be a lot of things, but he isn't elitist.
He's one of the only film critics of his renown who regularly gives genre films a good review. He doesn't look down on something because it's a comic, science fiction, horror, or fantasy movie.
His statements about video games are dumb, but then again, he probably doesn't actually play them.
You're right to say that the gaming community shouldn't be getting upset about his comments and flaming and all that shit, but you're dismissal of Ebert's conclusions in his article takes it a step too far. I went to school for film production and have worked in professional film and video for several years; as such, I'm a HUGE film fanatic (and also admirer and longtime follower of Ebert's work). Being a gamer as well, I was naturally quite interested when this article emerged, and like most of Ebert's work, I thought it was a well written, intelligent, and informed opinion. Nowhere in his article does Ebert stoop to petty insults or immature puffery. He doesn't call gamers stupid, or marginal, or gay or old (the latter two, sadly, favorites thrown at him by our fellow gamers). He's simply making the point that he doesn't think games are ready to be placed on the mantle next to other forms of high art, and for the most part, he's right. Games are a burgeoning art form, still in their infancy compared to others, and there hasn't been one yet that rises to the level of poetry or human experience such as that of a Citizen Kane or a Taxi Driver or La Dolce Vita. Ebert's also right that the addition of user input is more a hindrance than a facilitator to the experience of fine art. You don't decide how a painting ends up looking or how a film ends, or how long a book or a song should be. You imbibe art in a passive state, and it acts on you, not vice versa, and that's the way it has been for as long as the arts have been around. That's what Ebert's referring to. For gamers to jump on him and tell him he doesn't know what he's talking about, and call him a fag on top of it, only shows how little attention those people are paying to his statements, and also what little deference they have for the long, rich artistic traditions Ebert is trying to address.
There really shouldn't be any controversy here. Ebert acknowledges that games are highly creative and that they contain many artistic elements, but that's not to say that they presently deserve comparison to works such as Eliot's Wasteland or Godard's Breathless, or that the TOTAL experience of a game amounts to high art. Where I would disagree with Ebert is in his assertion that games are "structurally" incapable of getting there, and I think this is where his lack of exposure to the medium (which he confesses) comes into play. Sure they can get there; interactive media is evolving so rapidly that there's no telling where it will wind up.
In any event, the main point is that Ebert wasn't trying to trash our hobby or insult us or anyone else, and the response he received from the gaming community was embarrassing, just playing right into the stereotypes of gamers as boorish, uncultured, profane juveniles.
I can guarantee you this. if he didn't think gamers were jerks before he wrote that article, he sure as shit does now. .
12 hours ago..."my issue wasnt with his opinions "
@Porcelain_Snake said:
"obviously the guy is wrong"
As God is my witness, I don't understand why anyone still cares about this subject. Honestly, I wish the whole things would just be buried and forgotten. First of all, games are games, not movies and we should stop trying to hold them to the same standards. Would you use the same criteria to define dance and novels? Sculpture and music? Poetry and an oil painting? Well, those are all considered "art" you might say. What about sport and ballet? People have made those comparisons and yet sport is not considered an art in the classical sense. But, it still holds value within society. Second of all, "art" is personal and as the adage goes, "I don't know art, but I know what I like." So, I don't care how Mr. Ebert or anyone else defines "art", I only care about my personal definition. So, if he wants to say that games are not art, I don't really care. Besides, his field of expertise is film, not games so why would I ask him what he thinks of the tired, worn out, let-it-rest debate of games and art? Now, I would go to him to find out if Gamer: The Movie is worth seeing, but that's all.
And for the record, I don't believe games are art either. Games can have artistic qualities, but like 90% of the things people believe to be art, that itself doesn't make it "art" by my definition. I have a pretty limited view of what art is and most stuff is not art but "entertainment" which is okay because that's important, too. I've already said more than I wanted to on this, so I'll leave it at that.
I totally disagree. On a cerebral level one certainly has the ability to decide where both a painting starts and ends."You don't decide how a painting ends
Anyways, I just feel like the arguments that Ebert, a movie buff, is making against videogames as art could easily be restructured by a painter to discredit movies as art.
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