Sexism in Gaming

@Brodehouse said:

@Dexter_Morgan_

@Brodehouse said:

@Dexter_Morgan_

Johnny Cage could be characterized as someone who uses his looks to garner a wider fanbase.

Men are subject to it just like woman, except we don't complain about it.... usually.

Oh we complain. Robert Pattinson. We complain if we're not into it too, just like women complain when they're not into the same things men are. The goal all writers and designers are going for is a character that X wants to be, and Y wants to be with, whether it's male or female (even works for gays and lesbians). The fact that it usually only works for about half (actually, closer to half of half) should tell you that writing characters is HARD.

Sure we complain, but not to the extent of our female counterparts.

Bitches be crazy.

Oh no we complain to the exact same extent (men hate things targeted at women as much as women hate things targeted at men), the actual difference is there is comparatively far less 'white knighting' from women. Kind of ironically, men feel the need to 'defend' women in the media far more than women feel the need to 'defend' men. When you hear 'white knight' in the modern sense, you picture a man defending a woman on the Internet, not vice versa. Men are more likely to take men to task for making stuff that appeals to men than women are to take women to task for making stuff that appeals to women. More dudes hate braindead 'raunchy guy comedies' than women hate brain dead 'light romantic comedies'. I wonder why that is.

BECAUSE BITCHES BE CRAZY.

Kidding. I understand what you're saying though. I probably will never understand our species.. ever.

@Dexter_Morgan_ said:

This whole banter about why we shouldn't like boobs is so ignorant. Men like boobs. Video Games are a man's demographic. Boobs + Video Games = Man Happy.

1860s Alabama citizens love lynch mobs. A satisfactory life in Reconstruction-era South is a white man's demographic. Black people + death = white man happy.

Man, it's almost as if you have terrible reasoning that can be exploited to support literally anything.

@sissylion said:

@Dexter_Morgan_ said:

This whole banter about why we shouldn't like boobs is so ignorant. Men like boobs. Video Games are a man's demographic. Boobs + Video Games = Man Happy.

1860s Alabama citizens love lynch mobs. A satisfactory life in Reconstruction-era South is a white man's demographic. Black people + death = white man happy.

Man, it's almost as if you have terrible reasoning that can be exploited to support literally anything.

Yes, because comparing something as natural as men liking boobs to killing blacks is rational.

Not gonna lie: some of the comments in there were hysterical.

@Dexter_Morgan_: I'm not trying to strawman you, I'm just saying that that argument makes absolutely no sense. "People like things, so we should continue to let them like things" doesn't work if it hurts other parties. If I loved stealing, it wouldn't be acceptable just because it's what my heart desires.

I am not sure I agree with all of it but this blog http://gomakemeasandwich.wordpress.com/ really opened my eyes and informed me about this issues and I would really urge anyone who has posted here to go and have a look. I don't have the strength to get stuck in on this thread though.

@Dexter_Morgan_ said:

Sure we complain, but not to the extent of our female counterparts.

Bitches be crazy.

Maybe they have more to complain about? Maybe men are in a position of power where our complaints are listen to an addressed?

Saying that all women are crazy really isn't a great statement to anchor your opinion on.

@Dexter_Morgan_ said:

@Salarn said:

Men are in power sure, but I doubt they (we) (whatever) only focus on what bothers us as a gender. That's so shallow dude...

I'm pretty sure the big boys upstairs don't spend too much time discussing about how Superman's tights are too tight or how Gerard Butler isn't in enough movies that aren't ROM COMS.

This whole banter about why we shouldn't like boobs is so ignorant. Men like boobs. Video Games are a man's demographic. Boobs + Video Games = Man Happy.

Sure it seems wrong at the surface, but woman do it too. All those soap operas and romantic comedies portray us as either dumb as rocks cavemen or sexy dumb as rocks cavemen.

Also for the record I said "bitches be crazy" not women be crazy. Not every woman is a bitch. Even men can be bitches.

This isn't an argument about liking boobs, nobody is trying to remove the female body from entertainment industry. The issue is that due to the fact that the industry is dominated by male creators that women are often only portrayed in ways to please a small subset of the viewers. Video games are not a man's demographic, I don't know where you're getting your information from, but the 2012 ESA numbers show gamers to be 47% female, and more gamers are women over 30 than men under 17. Video game marketing is aimed heavily at young men, because many people wrongly think that sex sells.

Let me present a simple question to you or anyone else. What products have you purchased purely because marketing? What products have you purchased only because of the sexualized marketing?

Yes, there are lots of male roles that show men as bumbling idiots. Homer Simpson type characters, however, take a step back and look at your examples. You said soap operas and romantic comedies, and what happen to these bumbling guys? No matter how useless or pathetic they are, they still end up with the woman at the end who accepts him for all his lovable cute flaws.

Oh, and if you want to get into the etymology of the word "bitch" it's a word that's directly slanderous against women. It's most used to describe someone who complains, do to it's origin it implies females are complainers. To call a man the word is to say that being a woman is a negative thing.

@Brodehouse said:

Now Harry Potter, Twilght, Hunger Games. We'll get there, just wait for the demographic.

I'll give you twilight, but what about Harry Potter or Hunger Games is marketed exclusively towards women? They are both stories that are equally appealing towards all readers, well, unless you only saw the Hunger Games movie and were black, since some of those characters were casted out.

@sissylion said:

@Dexter_Morgan_: I'm not trying to strawman you, I'm just saying that that argument makes absolutely no sense. "People like things, so we should continue to let them like things" doesn't work if it hurts other parties. If I loved stealing, it wouldn't be acceptable just because it's what my heart desires.

My argument is more like "People like things that don't hurt nobody, so we should let them like said things". You keep throwing out these comparisons that are either illegal or morally wrong. Killing and stealing cannot be compared to something as innocent as liking boobs in the privacy of your own home. Do you watch porn? Maybe even enjoy it a little bit? Are woman portrayed as something less than classy, and intelligent in porn? Do you care? No, you don't.

@Salarn said:

@Dexter_Morgan_ said:

@Salarn said:

Men are in power sure, but I doubt they (we) (whatever) only focus on what bothers us as a gender. That's so shallow dude...

I'm pretty sure the big boys upstairs don't spend too much time discussing about how Superman's tights are too tight or how Gerard Butler isn't in enough movies that aren't ROM COMS.

This whole banter about why we shouldn't like boobs is so ignorant. Men like boobs. Video Games are a man's demographic. Boobs + Video Games = Man Happy.

Sure it seems wrong at the surface, but woman do it too. All those soap operas and romantic comedies portray us as either dumb as rocks cavemen or sexy dumb as rocks cavemen.

Also for the record I said "bitches be crazy" not women be crazy. Not every woman is a bitch. Even men can be bitches.

This isn't an argument about liking boobs, nobody is trying to remove the female body from entertainment industry. The issue is that due to the fact that the industry is dominated by male creators that women are often only portrayed in ways to please a small subset of the viewers. Video games are not a man's demographic, I don't know where you're getting your information from, but the 2012 ESA numbers show gamers to be 47% female, and more gamers are women over 30 than men under 17. Video game marketing is aimed heavily at young men, because many people wrongly think that sex sells.

Let me present a simple question to you or anyone else. What products have you purchased purely because marketing? What products have you purchased only because of the sexualized marketing?

Yes, there are lots of male roles that show men as bumbling idiots. Homer Simpson type characters, however, take a step back and look at your examples. You said soap operas and romantic comedies, and what happen to these bumbling guys? No matter how useless or pathetic they are, they still end up with the woman at the end who accepts him for all his lovable cute flaws.

Oh, and if you want to get into the etymology of the word "bitch" it's a word that's directly slanderous against women. It's most used to describe someone who complains, do to it's origin it implies females are complainers. To call a man the word is to say that being a woman is a negative thing.

I actually had no idea so many women played video games so I will back away from the basic argument of men being able like what they like, however. There are plenty of video games that don't market sex and the female body as an object.

To answer your question I have never purchased a game or movie or comic book because of boobs. But with that said I don't mind seeing it around... it doesn't make or break the content but it does spice it up a little.

@sissylion said:

@Dexter_Morgan_ said:

Boobs + Video Games = Man Happy.

Black people + death = white man happy.

You don't actually think that's equivalent, do you?

Men liking breasts is completely instinctive and natural. It doesn't hurt anyone. Also, last time I checked making a female game character sexualized didn't mean killing, seriously physically injuring, or driving women out of their homes and property. We're talking about portrayals in a videogame. There is a case to be made that certain portrayals in media are - in the long term and on a wide general scale - unhealthy. But likening it to racially motivated direct physical violence and torture is idiotic.

You didn't even make a case attempting to tie your supposedly analogous example to the original statement, something I think is impossible anyways. But please, enlighten us.

@Brodehouse said:

Now Harry Potter, Twilght, Hunger Games. We'll get there, just wait for the demographic.

I'll give you twilight, but what about Harry Potter or Hunger Games is marketed exclusively towards women? They are both stories that are equally appealing towards all readers, well, unless you only saw the Hunger Games movie and were black, since some of those characters were casted out.

@sissylion said:

@Dexter_Morgan_: I'm not trying to strawman you, I'm just saying that that argument makes absolutely no sense. "People like things, so we should continue to let them like things" doesn't work if it hurts other parties. If I loved stealing, it wouldn't be acceptable just because it's what my heart desires.

This is the part where you explain to us why it's harmful as opposed to just saying "Well, what if I liked X bad thing does that mean I get to do X bad thing?"

@Dexter_Morgan_: But if we follow the assumption that video games are a man's demographic, that means that the genre is completely ignoring the women that play video games. Which there are a lot of, considering how there are a lot of women in existence (more than men, even!). Even disregarding the ethics of the objectification of women in video games, it doesn't make sense from a market perspective. Male chauvinism in video games is such a problem that developers don't even recognize it, or else they wouldn't do it because they're be alienating part of their fanbase and losing sales. There's nothing wrong with liking boobs. There's something wrong with liking boobs attached to a female caricature, one that dominates the entirety of the medium.

And pornography is a completely different topic. Everyone goes into pornography expecting solely sexualization. There's no promise of story or pathos or writing, it's just well-endowed humans boning each other. Video games aren't that. There's a presumption that video games will have some sort of story, that characters will see development and turmoil. When most of the effort of writing goes into developing solely male characters, that's a big problem.

Also, women in pornography aren't portrayed as classless. I don't know what porn you're watching, but the stuff I've seen usually doesn't begin with them digging through the garbage to find food or stealing from the poor in order to buy drugs.

@Dexter_Morgan_ said:

@Salarn said:

I actually had no idea so many women played video games so I will back away from the basic argument of men being able like what they like, however. There are plenty of video games that don't market sex and the female body as an object.

To answer your question I have never purchased a game or movie or comic book because of boobs. But with that said I don't mind seeing it around... it doesn't make or break the content but it does spice it up a little.

Plenty is a relative term, there are many more games now than there were previously. However, looking at E3 and the games out of it, can you find any that had men in the position of a sex object? How many used women as sex objects? Now, the continuation of this thought, how many of the games for women (not girls which is a whole different topic) are games that would in anyway be exclusionary to male gamers? Is that fair to only included under represented groups for games that are for "everyone"?

That's interesting, you personally don't buy things because of serialized advertising, so does sex sell? There is a big big difference between attractive main characters and sexualized characters, the easiest way to tell is to look at a character and ask the simple question. Is what they are wearing helpful to what the character does? (if you can even tell what their profession/role is based on their clothing)

@Harkat said:

@sissylion said:

@Dexter_Morgan_ said:

Boobs + Video Games = Man Happy.

Black people + death = white man happy.

You don't actually think that's equivalent, do you?

Men liking breasts is completely instinctive and natural. It doesn't hurt anyone. Also, last time I checked making a female game character sexualized didn't mean killing, seriously physically injuring, or driving women out of their homes and property. We're talking about portrayals in a videogame. There is a case to be made that certain portrayals in media are - in the long term and on a wide general scale - unhealthy. But likening it to racially motivated direct physical violence and torture is idiotic.

You didn't even make a case attempting to tie your supposedly analogous example to the original statement, something I think is impossible anyways. But please, enlighten us.

The sexualization of breasts is actually a construction of western culture and the furthest thing from natural, actually. But kudos for playing right into what they want you to believe.

@Harkat: Because painting a gender, race, ethnicity, etc. as one-dimensional and equating their worth with their aesthetics is generally a bad thing. I don't have a problem with there being pretty ladies in video games. I like pretty ladies a lot, actually, so the more chances to see them, the better. The problem comes in when the only defining characteristic of a pretty lady in a video game is the fact that she's a pretty lady.

@HatKing said:

The sexualization of breasts is actually a construction of western culture and the furthest thing from natural, actually. But kudos for playing right into what they want you to believe.

Who, the reptilians?

Actually, I myself am socially constructed. My environment perpetuated the idea of me and then I culturally faded into existence. Intercourse leading to pregnancy leading to childbirth is just what they want you to believe.

EDIT: yeah, this is a strawman. But for fuck's sake...

Video games people are make believe. Don't get so worked up about everything.

That said, I think that the writing of VG ladies characters in general is poor. every VG lady is either a sexy vamp temptress or Michelle Rodriguez. Certainly there are more shades-that could be explored.

I'd rather look at a sexy character than a snorlax to be honest.

After reading through the comments on my thread, skipping over most of the innocuous ones, I definitely have a stronger sense of what my problem with our industry really is. For those of you who peacefully argued for and/or against the need to bring awareness to sexism in video games, thank you; and if you are willing to legitimately listen and have this discussion, you are not the problem.

The problem is with the attitude surrounding the discussion of sexism in video games. Where is the harm in discussing a topic that is also being discussed in many other forms of media. People keep referring to sexism in games as being a trend in the 80s and 90s. ????????? This has been prevalent in the media since the media has existed. I am shocked to see that individuals can be so unaware of such current, popular controversy. Also, what about the 60s and 70s?

In any case, I don't want to get bogged down saying what others (@mystakin ) have already pointed out, but these two comments really shocked me and demonstrate the "real problem" I referred to earlier, namely, the attitude surrounding the discussion of sexism in video games.

@Aetheldod said:

And I will say I like females to be beautiful in my videogames so whoever tries to destroy that , is my enemy >:3 , altho I agree that there should be more female leads , like Samus , Faith (Mirror´s Edge protagonist) . But I do not wish ever to play as Ugly Betty etc. Call me mysoginist , chauvinist etc. but videogames is the last thing we have that isnt destoyed by feminazism.

Here, I see a completely disinterested, unaware attitude. This individual is entirely dismissive of himself: "Call me misogynist, chauvinist, etc." What's shocking to me is how easily he spouts that "video games is the last thing" we haven't "destroyed by feminazism." I wonder if he honestly, consciously makes a correlation between feminism and Nazism in his mind. More likely, he defaulted to something he has heard, "feminazism," and tosses it into the fray. Why is it so casual to vilify women and men who take offense to sexism? Would this individual speak equally as casually if the subject were about race or disability? I doubt it. This attitude is immature, lazy, and, I feel, pervasive enough to make gaming look sexist, chauvinistic, racist, homophobic, or any one of many bigoted qualities so quickly swept under the rug and ignored as sexism.

@notlupus said:

I really think that some women and men are really too quick to shout "sexism" whenever they see a woman in some type of media that does not define some PC image they had in their minds.. There are many men portrayed in video games that set unrealistic standards for real men, they have no facial or body hair and six pack abs. Yet there is never any men or even women acknowledgment that this could be "sexism" towards men. There are women that have unrealistic expectations that all men have to be like Jacob from Twilight for example. Anytime a man points this out its quickly pointed out well you have Nathan Drake he's realistic, Lara Croft is sexist towards women. Sorry,but comparing a character from the 1990's to one created in the 2000's is a bit off setting. That's like saying "well everyone in the 1940's in Germany where members of the nazi party so I guess everyone in Germany today is still supporter of the Nazi party." Whenever someone screams sexism in video games they compare apples to oranges, they use the worst example of women in video games, more likely than not from the over sexualized 90's , you know the generation where graphics where so advanced and life like. I sure do love me some octagon boobs so sexy, this is why I have issues with STOP signs these days apparently.

How about we compare Nathan Drake to the new Lara Croft both are strong leads and both are not over sexualized. OMG Lara wears a tank top and is almost raped in a trailer that would never happen to a man. SEXISM! Yeah I remember this discussion from the late 90's as well, guess what men can be raped , men can the targets of sexual discrimination both of which 99% of the time by women. And that douche from Twilight walked around for 4 movies with his shirt off.

The sad fact is that many people that speak out about the outrage of sexism in media often have an agenda and they often don't care that some people my disagree with them. They will talk until they are blue in the face about how everyone is at fault and that how they are the only ones trying to change things. How a game that was released in the 1980's or even one today has set the course for women's rights back 20 years, but they only bought it for "research" purposes.

You know what, if you disagree with the way a game portrays a particular character, don't fucking buy it. Tell your friends and fell gamers " hey I don't like the way ex: Lollipop Chainsaw is depicting women so I don't plan to buy it. If you don't like this as well I encourage you not to buy it as well " If women make up 42% of gamers and 1/2 of them said to a publisher yeah we aren't going to buy this we don't like the way a character is portrayed. Maybe then the publisher would rethink their position and reevaluate current projects.

If you want to complain about the sexism in video games and media then I think you should take a hard good look at the media you where presented with as a child. That awesome book you read in the library - pulled because the knight was obviously sexist towards the princess he rescued. That awesome television show that had a stay at home mom that's Sexist and pulled form the air. That song about the guy who's wife left him and he's dictating a letter to his lawyer, pulled because maria is receptionist.

The thing that people who shout Sexism! fail to acknowledge or admit to themselves is that the only thing that would make them happy is outright censorship of works. When creators have to fear about their works being censored and warped from creation that leads brain drain and morale drop. Talented writers would rather leave to other forms of media where they aren't censored, then we have Dragon age 2 levels of dialogue and storytelling in every single game.

The truth is that there is always going to be sexism and racism and other ism's in the world. The question is are you going to bitch and bitch about it in hopes that the problem will go away or are you going to act like an adult realize that all you can do is not support it and think for yourself and teach your children to think for themselves.

PS. It should also be known I hate anyone that uses the term tropes in anything they claim is academic. You use the term tropes in any graduate level course work and see if your work is ever published or you are ever taken seriously.

Again, this comment has already been addressed far more dutifully than I am able to address it. I don't want to write too much about it out of fear of its author desiring to write more, but I did want to repost it as a shining example of the attitude I criticize. What I specifically want to point out about this entire post is how defensive it is. When I initially posted my thoughts on this thread, I definitely did not mean to, as this individual writes, "shout 'Sexism!'" I tried to make my tone surrounding this controversial subject as calm and rational as possible. This response is indicative of another scary kind of attitude. When faced with an issue about sexism in games, this individual responds by berating those who feel differently, again incorporating not only comparisons to Nazism, but also resorting to name calling, hyperbole, and other obviously rhetorical ploys.

These two people reflect a very pervasive, general attitude that I have noticed in the gaming culture. I cannot speak for everybody, but I would guess that most people would not be satisfied with total censorship of video games. What I like about Feminist Frequency is that they (Anita) are trying to raise awareness of one issue, sexism. Where is the harm in that? By raising awareness she is doing something good for our community regardless of anyone's argumentative stance. She is polishing it. While neither of these comments reach the heights of the harassment Anita received, I think it is undeniable that there is a generally immature attitude surrounding what many people find to be a serious issue.

@sissylion: I agree that it's unhealthy for women (and society in general) to have an idea of females as only valuable for aesthetic or sexual purposes. I don't agree games or media promote this idea broadly. I agree that more fleshed-out female characters with deeper worth would be good.

But like Brodehouse said, it's largely the way it is due to market share. Not only is the audience for the "big" console games we're talking about predominantly male, but those males seem to chose for sex appeal above social progressiveness. Which isn't ideologically fantastic, but to be expected.

I also wouldn't label this "male chauvinism". Do you think the developers consider men "better" than women? Do you think games have this message? It's true most powerful or heroic roles are inhabited by men, but that's nowhere near the same as having a message of "men>women".

@SathingtonWaltz: Please point out where I said I had something against white males, otherwhise kindly shut the fuck up. Adults are trying to have a conversation here.

@notlupus: Wait, you mean Idi Amin could have been played by a white guy? I'd love to have seen that. Fair point about Sidney Poitier, but once again: that's ONE person. One. Finding one person in the entire history of the Academy Awards doesn't actually disprove my point; it actually highlights it pretty much just as well. I don't know, maybe white guys don't find black guys all that "relatable". I've never personally had a problem finding someone who plays the same video games and listens to the same music to be relatable, but then again I'm not in charge of casting for a big-budget Hollywood movie.

Regardless, the point I'm making is, you see black leads in "black roles" (Last King of Scotland) more than you do in universal roles, at least within all the big-budget movies. I've already offered a place to go find movies to disprove my assertion, with the Academy Awards list. If you want to do a count, please go ahead. I'm fairly confident in all my assertions, but if I'm presented with information to demonstrate otherwise, I'm always willing to reconsider.

@Harkat: It's chauvinistic (and really grimy) if they consider making extra money from meatheads that just want their female video game characters to be fuckdolls a more noble pursuit than having integrity in their ideals. Which is the way business works, which is why having video games be an industry is stupid and I can't wait for the inevitable crash to happen.

@Harkat said:

But like Brodehouse said, it's largely the way it is due to market share. Not only is the audience for the "big" console games we're talking about predominantly male, but those males seem to chose for sex appeal above social progressiveness. Which isn't ideologically fantastic, but to be expected.

I also wouldn't label this "male chauvinism". Do you think the developers consider men "better" than women? Do you think games have this message? It's true most powerful or heroic roles are inhabited by men, but that's nowhere near the same as having a message of "men>women".

I've mentioned this a few times, but the market for video game is not predominantly male, if you have any data to back this up please share. If you are referring to 'AAA' big blockbuster games like Call of Duty, they do sell to predominately male audiences, however, they are marketed towards predominately male audiences. Even games that have more general appeal are still marketed at the male audience, do you remember sony's add for Uncharted that showed the "girlfriend" being too dumb to get that Uncharted was a video game instead of a movie?

Speaking as a game developer, I don't see men being better than women. However, many games do have this message. Can you name any games that the male character needs to be rescued? Women are often the trophy or prize at the end of the game, and we're not just talking Duke Nukem games. Also, the omission of women is supporting "men > women" everyone getting things done is male, it was good to see that in CoD:BO2 they used a female pilot for one of the people in the combat. Of course you'll never see her outside the jet, because of the additional costs to model and rig a female character. Think about how many games that no females in multiplayer yet boast about having unlimited customization.

There are some good characters, who solve problems instead of being sources of problems. It's a handful, and one of the best "Samus" was reduced to a sniveling child unable to do what she did in her previous dozen games without the support and commands from a male in "Other M"

The biggest confusion on this argument is summed up with this question: "Would games be better or worse if they were more inclusive of race/gender/religion/etc... ?" If someone answers worse because they don't want to player a character that doesn't represent them, then they are extremely lucky that so many others are willing to play games as strait white males.

@depecheload said:

Stats vary from site to site. I agree. My point is, however, that this is just one of many examples that show that women are not as entitled/equal as men.

And there are many other examples where men aren't as entitled/equal as women. How about the fact that, throughout all of history and even pre-history, men were and still are at a highly disproportionate risk of dying in wars, getting injured and/or dying in the workplace. You heard of Brian Banks? Falsely accused of rape, and it's more common than you think. When it comes to prison sentencing, men are likely to receive harsher punishment over women for the same crime under the same circumstances. When it comes to domestic violence, men are just as likely to be victims as women are, and women can be perpetrators too. And don't even get me started on men's reproductive rights, or child custody rights. And of course you have society's paranoia over men around children.

Of course it's all subjective on how oppressed men in relation to women, but I'd like to think that both genders are oppressed at an equal amount. Just in many different ways.

@depecheload said:

Okay, so I'm right. Stop trying to explain it way. Women make less money than men and they are in less positions of power then men. That's what I said.

Duder, if you're going to call yourself a feminist, you need to stop mansplaining away every example someone gives of discrimination, sexism and patriarchal oppression against women. The whole "but men too!" argument when discussing these issues is an insulting one. It's not an even playing field AT ALL. And when you try to bring up stuff like this in these discussions it creates the horrible illusion that it is, giving sexist men a pass to think/do what they want to.

Actually there is one illusion being shown and it's, unfortunately, already been created before. That illusion would be the wage gap between men and women that's created by some sort of institutionalized discrimination. Here's a short but concise video about this that I hope you find useful.

47% of Gamers are female? Define Gamer. I've played a lot of online games and I still see the same ratio of ~1:11 women per men on a server. Now, if that survey entailed facebook games, or cellphone games that appealed to the more casual crowd, I'd find it a lot more believable. Avid gamers at the moment are mostly males. Men are the majority out there when people are waiting for midnight releases or on gaming sites such as this. Game companies know this and are catering by adopting what they perceive to be attracting for males. Either that or the game developers wanted to just make the game that way, which I don't blame them for at all.

Then there's the claims that this 'sexism' causes men to mistreat women. I mean there's alot of things video games have been claimed to do including raising violence levels in teens, but we're all aware that that is a load of bunk. Also, these 'sexist' portrayals almost seem relative to the individual considering the abundance of female cosplayers that dress up as these 'sexist' portrayals. But at the same time, Feminists argue women should be allowed to dress the way they want without being called a 'slut'. So, it is horrible that games embrace the stereotypes, but if a woman does, it is not only okay, but supported.

Even if sexism is a problem in games, it is negligible compared to other problems facing the industry. I think many are bemoaning the lack of creativity within the industry with the over releases of FPS games. I've heard some say that they're waiting for a 2nd crash to occur when there's a surge in indie games becoming more popular. Then there's the overpricing, and overabundance of rather poor DLC. Oh and 60 bucks a game? I'm a PC Gamer, I didn't have to deal with this shit until Activision thought they could get away with it, and they did; everyone else seems to think they can now follow suit. I always thought the higher price tag for console games were due to the HD DVD and Blu-ray medium, but I guess I was wrong.

@Ace829 said:

@depecheload said:

Stats vary from site to site. I agree. My point is, however, that this is just one of many examples that show that women are not as entitled/equal as men.

And there are many other examples where men aren't as entitled/equal as women. How about the fact that, throughout all of history and even pre-history, men were and still are at a highly disproportionate risk of dying in wars, getting injured and/or dying in the workplace. You heard of Brian Banks? Falsely accused of rape, and it's more common than you think. When it comes to prison sentencing, men are likely to receive harsher punishment over women for the same crime under the same circumstances. When it comes to domestic violence, men are just as likely to be victims as women are, and women can be perpetrators too. And don't even get me started on men's reproductive rights, or child custody rights. And of course you have society's paranoia over men around children.

Of course it's all subjective on how oppressed men in relation to women, but I'd like to think that both genders are oppressed at an equal amount. Just in many different ways.

@depecheload said:

Okay, so I'm right. Stop trying to explain it way. Women make less money than men and they are in less positions of power then men. That's what I said.

Duder, if you're going to call yourself a feminist, you need to stop mansplaining away every example someone gives of discrimination, sexism and patriarchal oppression against women. The whole "but men too!" argument when discussing these issues is an insulting one. It's not an even playing field AT ALL. And when you try to bring up stuff like this in these discussions it creates the horrible illusion that it is, giving sexist men a pass to think/do what they want to.

Actually there is one illusion being shown and it's, unfortunately, already been created before. That illusion would be the wage gap between men and women that's created by some sort of institutionalized discrimination. Here's a short but concise video about this that I hope you find useful.

Men die in wars more because more men serve. Why do more men serve? Because women weren't even ALLOWED to serve in combat until very recently. So hey, that's sexism against women that's killing men. Not sexism against men. But thanks for playing.

Why do more men die at the workplace? Because discrimination has kept women out of those jobs where injuries are common.

False accusations of rape far, far, far, far far times a billion outweigh the number of rapes that don't even go reported. 97% of rapists walk.

Men are NOT "just as" likely to be victims of domestic violence. The article you site doesn't even say that.

Men still have more reproductive rights than women.

Child custody and sex abuse paranoia are probably the ONLY place where women actually have some sort of an "advtange" over men, so yay.

You're overwhelming argument seems to be "omg men have it bad too." Well, no shit Sherlock. Everyone has it bad. Good for you. But like I said before, the idea that women are somehow just as entitled or equal as men is horseshit.

Sigh. I give up. Have fun treated women like sub-humans. I'm going to work.

@Brodehouse said:

@Salarn You're playing at a false causation though. You build products that speak to markets, you don't build markets with products. Because you can't own a market, you can only sell to it. I'm not saying that the potential isn't there, or that someone shouldn't try marketing a game directly to women. But it works that the women appear and then the games come, not the other way around. Like I said, consider older mediums, books. They began by men, for men. Women began reading anyways, and later began writing. Eventually, there was about women, for women. But that was after the market had women readers, not before. You can't make a product that lures people into a medium they don't give a shit about. You can make a nitrous injector marketed to women and it won't matter, unless women are already anmajor demographic in street racing. It'll happen eventually anyways. More women are playing games, more women are making them. You'll see alternatives crop up as soon as the market can support them. That's why The Devil Wears Prada opened the same day as Superman Returns (and did gangbusters).

You don't build markets with products? That's exactly what the Wii and DS set out to do, and did. Women WANT to be gamers, but they're pushed away by the type of content most games contain. Here's the thing, though, I don't think most feminists want products marketed directly to women, either (I know I don't). When that happens, you get stuff like Imagine Babies or Lego Friends that play into stereotypes to sell products(same thing when targeting men, look at the Dr. Pepper 10 commercials). Great games that feminists tout as prime examples of female roles aren't aimed at women only. Beyond Good and Evil, Portal 1 and 2, Half Life 2, these aren't products aimed at anyone except gamers. An article on the Starfire sexualization recently said it best about comic books, and it applies to games as well: "superhero comics don't even need to specifically target women as much as they need to not actively offend them."

@Ace829: I won't go into the exact details of your post, just wanted to say. Yes, life sucks and is hard for many people, that's why everyone should support feminism, it's about equality and shared rights for everyone. Please put out a list of things that we all need to improve upon, that should be supported. However, it doesn't negate the issues that afflict others.

@Brodehouse: It's a chicken and egg problem, you can definitely use the "Make more art" argument as a way to support women and other underrepresented. However, that's a stance taken often by people in power, it's saying "We made our games for us, you make yours." To draw this out into a more hyperbolic example, "White folk had better schools, if minorities want schooling they should just build more schools." it's really not asking to give up that much to be inclusive. Games will be better if we include better characters.

The entire point of this thread was a person, a woman, was trying to get her views and points across, thousands of people decided they should take time and effort to shut her up. How can people "make more art" if they are being stopped from trying?

@Discoman: The numbers included all types of gamers, you can go to the site and see larger breakdowns of items, however this discussion is about being inclusive for games. We play in different circles of gamers, the raiding guild I lead for seven years in wow had about 35% females, and a few GLBT representatives. Of course, this was on vent in a guild with rules about hate speech, if you turned on the general chat you're going to see a much higher percentage of male representation in games because they other groups are bullied into silence. Again, this is all about bad marketing, the circular argument that why market games for women if women don't buy games that arn't marketed to them.

Female cosplayers choose to dress up as that character, and feminists argue that anyone should be allow to dress the way they want without being targeted by hate speech.

Please don't deflect unto the state of games and DLC which outside the discussion. Unless you are being ironic that it's frustrating that games are all being made for FPS fans and people who support DLC, and how much it sucks that you're not part of that demographic and feel like you can't find games that fit your desires. I respect your concerns and issues with games, however just because they are your concerns doesn't make them more important than the concerns being discussed in this thread.

@Brodehouse said:

@Salarn You're playing at a false causation though. You build products that speak to markets, you don't build markets with products. Because you can't own a market, you can only sell to it. I'm not saying that the potential isn't there, or that someone shouldn't try marketing a game directly to women. But it works that the women appear and then the games come, not the other way around. Like I said, consider older mediums, books. They began by men, for men. Women began reading anyways, and later began writing. Eventually, there was about women, for women. But that was after the market had women readers, not before. You can't make a product that lures people into a medium they don't give a shit about. You can make a nitrous injector marketed to women and it won't matter, unless women are already anmajor demographic in street racing. It'll happen eventually anyways. More women are playing games, more women are making them. You'll see alternatives crop up as soon as the market can support them. That's why The Devil Wears Prada opened the same day as Superman Returns (and did gangbusters).

You don't build markets with products? That's exactly what the Wii and DS set out to do, and did. Women WANT to be gamers, but they're pushed away by the type of content most games contain. Here's the thing, though, I don't think most feminists want products marketed directly to women, either (I know I don't). When that happens, you get stuff like Imagine Babies or Lego Friends that play into stereotypes to sell products. Great games that feminists tout as prime examples of female roles aren't aimed at women only. Beyond Good and Evil, Portal 1 and 2, Half Life 2, these aren't products aimed at anyone except gamers. An article on the Starfire sexualization recently said it best about comic books, and it applies to games as well: "superhero comics don't even need to specifically target women as much as they need to not actively offend them."

@depecheload said:

Men die in wars more because more men serve. Why do more men serve? Because women weren't even ALLOWED to serve in combat until very recently. So hey, that's sexism against women that's killing men. Not sexism against men. But thanks for playing.

Oof you sort of just reframed the issue there. In the past and even today, just like how women were expected to stay at home and take care of the children was a sexist belief, so is expecting the men to kill each other over land, differences, money etc. How would you like it if I framed the issue of women being the "stay at home wife" in the same way you did?

"Women are burdened with taking care of the children all the time. Why is this? Because men weren't even ALLOWED to be the primary caretaker of children until very recently due to the fact that they would be viewed as a sissy or a 'failure of man'. So hey, that's sexism against men that burdens women. Not sexism against women."

You see how messed up that is? You could say that (and be wrong), or you say this!

"Due to the fact that men were viewed as expendable then and even now, they are tasked with the burden of fighting all the wars, doing all the hard work, and providing the bread for the family. This is a restrictive gender role for men as it discouraged any men from being 'stay at home dads' or any other behaviors that would have been viewed as 'a woman's job'.

Also, how is NOT being forced to serve in combat a disadvantage? Last time I checked, staying away from dangerous situations was a damn good thing.

@depecheload said:

False accusations of rape far, far, far, far far times a billion outweigh the number of rapes that don't even go reported. 97% of rapists walk.

Got any sources to back that up? I gave you mine so it's only fair that you provide yours.

@depecheload said:

Why do more men die at the workplace? Because discrimination has kept women out of those jobs where injuries are common.

Once again, any sources to back that claim up?

@depecheload said:

Men are NOT "just as" likely to be victims of domestic violence. The article you site doesn't even say that.

That's because I took into account the amount of unreported cases which, I believe, are much higher than unreported female victim cases because of the way our society views male victims of domestic abuse (not all that seriously).

@depecheload said:

Men still have more reproductive rights than women.

You're gonna have to convince with more than just a statement. Did you know that if a female rapes a male, gets pregnant, and has the baby, that the male is still expected to pay child support? Never mind the fact that he has 0% say on whether or not the baby is even allowed to be born. It happens the same way if a woman lies about being on birth control, or intentionally breaks a condom during intercourse. Once the woman gets pregnant, even without your consent, you can kiss your reproductive rights goodbye as a male!

@depecheload said:

You're overwhelming argument seems to be "omg men have it bad too." Well, no shit Sherlock. Everyone has it bad. Good for you. But like I said before, the idea that women are somehow just as entitled or equal as men is horseshit.

Sigh. I give up. Have fun treated women like sub-humans. I'm going to work.

I have another link here that shows the many many ways that men are just as much victims of sexism as women are in a more concise list. I really hope you give it a read because despite our disagreements I really do think it's an interesting topic that deserves more discussion. I am a bit disappointed that you accuse me of misogyny when all I've done is highlight the many grievances that men have that are usually dismissed or not taken as seriously. I never once refuted the idea that misogyny exists or that men's problems are greater then women's. Just that we all have an advantaged yet disadvantaged position in society because of our gender roles. A male trying to be feminine is just as harshly rejected as a female trying to be masculine.

Also, the video I posted didn't seem to work, but I edited the post so it should be fixed now. Thanks for taking the time to hear me out.

@Brodehouse said:

@mystakin

@Brodehouse said:

@Salarn You're playing at a false causation though. You build products that speak to markets, you don't build markets with products. Because you can't own a market, you can only sell to it. I'm not saying that the potential isn't there, or that someone shouldn't try marketing a game directly to women. But it works that the women appear and then the games come, not the other way around. Like I said, consider older mediums, books. They began by men, for men. Women began reading anyways, and later began writing. Eventually, there was about women, for women. But that was after the market had women readers, not before. You can't make a product that lures people into a medium they don't give a shit about. You can make a nitrous injector marketed to women and it won't matter, unless women are already anmajor demographic in street racing. It'll happen eventually anyways. More women are playing games, more women are making them. You'll see alternatives crop up as soon as the market can support them. That's why The Devil Wears Prada opened the same day as Superman Returns (and did gangbusters).

You don't build markets with products? That's exactly what the Wii and DS set out to do, and did. Women WANT to be gamers, but they're pushed away by the type of content most games contain. Here's the thing, though, I don't think most feminists want products marketed directly to women, either (I know I don't). When that happens, you get stuff like Imagine Babies or Lego Friends that play into stereotypes to sell products. Great games that feminists tout as prime examples of female roles aren't aimed at women only. Beyond Good and Evil, Portal 1 and 2, Half Life 2, these aren't products aimed at anyone except gamers. An article on the Starfire sexualization recently said it best about comic books, and it applies to games as well: "superhero comics don't even need to specifically target women as much as they need to not actively offend them."

I didn't mean "you can't" build a market, I mean that "you shouldn't". Because you can't own a market. There's nothing proprietary about a consumer, you can only have something they want or not. Nintendo is actually a great example, as they built a market and then had Zynga completely take the rug (and the consumers) from under them. Zynga didn't build a market, they simply sold to it. Zynga is rich as fuck and Nintendo is hemhorraging money. Even then, it's not that Nintendo CREATED a market, it's that they IDENTIFIED one. I'm not going to argue about this game or that game, I'm just saying; markets create products, not the other way around.

Welcome to business. Nintendo identifies a market (I'll use your termonolgy, although arguing they identified it and didn't create it is semantics) and Zynga did it better than them and stole their consumers. That's just capitalism. The problem is, you seem to think women don't want to be gamers. "The women appear and then the games come." -- "After the market had women readers, not before" -- "You can't make a product that lures people into a medium they don't give a shit about." As I said, women WANT to game, they WANT to be a part of gaming culture. Unfortunately, most hardcore games are constant reminders to women that gaming isn't for them. No matter how much they wish it was.

@Ace829 Looking at your last link, there's some great points, though I wish they were cited. Still, unsubstantiated claimed like "The current face of feminism that’s less about gender equality than it is about bashing men," "The treatment of all men as potential or actual rapists, pedophiles et cetera," and "Acceptance of negative media portrayals of men, where such a portrayal would not be acceptable of a woman." really hurt his argument. As do flat out wrong statements like "Prejudices in (particularly early) education against boys and educational programs that consistently cater to stereotypically female styles of learning." (Most schools focus more on stereotypically male subjects like Math and Science instead of stereotypically female subjects like art) and "Lack of good media role models for young men." (This has more to do with how we know too much about everyone now to have real role models anymore. That said, if males don't have good role models, women don't have a chance.) There are strong points in there, but you have to pick through a lot of falsehoods and assumptions to find them.

There's problems on both sides of the coin. But saying that men are just as disadvantaged as women is so false it's laughable, especially in terms of the media (which is what we're primarily discussing).

@Salarn: Don't misunderstand. I am not listing those issues to negate the issues of women. I was simply highlighting how the world we live in today disadvantages men just as much as women, albeit in a different way. I am a feminist by your definition though I'd prefer the term egalitarian since it encompasses all genders, races, orientations etc etc. Thanks for the kind words too.

@Salarn: Don't misunderstand. I am not listing those issues to negate the issues of women. I was simply highlighting how the world we live in today disadvantages men just as much as women, albeit in a different way. I am a feminist by your definition though I'd prefer the term egalitarian since it encompasses all genders, races, orientations etc etc. Thanks for the kind words too.

@Ace829:

You accuse me of "reframing" but whatever, you're the one trying to reframe 2,000+ years of sexist behavior created BY MEN for the benefit of MEN into something else. EVERYTHING you've said you can blame sexism towards women for. Get over yourself. I give up. You are not a feminist. Stop saying you are one.

btw, where I get my stats

http://fatuglyorslutty.com/

Im done arguing with sexists. Turning off notifactions. Goodbye messageboards.

@Example1013 said:

@OppressiveStink: So what you're saying is, even though it's written by male screenwriters, directed by male directors, and marketed to a target audience of male viewers, it's not a guy movie. You just made Depecheload's point for him.

@MadMagyar92: You really need to stop making my point for me. If 127 Hours is applicable to any story of human triumph, then why don't we have a 127 Hours featuring a female lead on the Best Picture nomination list? Or a black guy? Or *gasp* a black woman? You don't see them because they don't exist. I'd like you to find me one movie on that list that features someone other than a white male as THE main character, that is universally applicable such as the movie could just as easily be made WITH a white male as a main character (which obviously means The Blind Side, Precious, The Help, Ray, and Black Swan are all out).

Of course, you can't, because all those films about "universal triumph" and "political overtones" and "environmentalism" feature white male leads.

EDIT: Actually I'll even give you Black Swan. That's one. One out of 30. And there's no way you could possibly say with any amount of emprical support that white males make up a proportional size of the demographic.

127 hours is based on true events. And what is your problem with white actors or white males?(you're a racist)

@Salarn

And? Was 'My Little Pony' marketed to males? Nope, yet suddenly there's a big Brony following. WOW commercials had Chuck Norris, Ozzy Osbourne, and Mr.T being paid to endorse a game for a male audience, a game they probably didn't even know existed, and yet you had a 35% female guild. I think the worst I've ever seen a girl get it in a chat was having a guy hit on her. That was it. I don't think it is overwhelming that in a game teeming with women that they'd put up with being bullied and silenced.

You just skipped over my point. Cosplayers have embraced female depictions that are considered 'sexist', but there isn't much protest that they're empowering a stereotype is there? That's a discrepancy. It is horrible for a man oriented game to depict a female stereotype, but it is fine for a woman to replicate that same character, but also negative for a man to remark on sexual appealing nature of that outfit... that was made to appeal to men in the first place.

Please don't deflect? I was questioning the importance of this discussion itself. 'Sexist' depictions aren't going to make or break this industry.

@mystakin said:

@crithon said:

I have found her videos a bit trivial and she seems to have the same school of presentation to conservative commentators. I think her biggest problem is she focuses on trival issues and never grasps the reality. If it's enough to get us talking about how about "equal rights for women"? then I'm all for that, but trolling how mia is a "fighting fuck toy" that's just silly

Providing concrete examples of common sexist tropes in video games is... silly and trivial?

I feel you may be jumping the gun and taking his words out of context i kinda agree with crithon after watching i few of her videos. I'm all for equal representation of women along with races and other sexual orientations in games. but i do find that she uses a lot of little/simple examples to build up her agreement kinda of the low hanging fruit if you will. Making issue with every "sexed up female characters" and every stereotypical female.

When i find the real problem is simply having a balance. You will never stop stereotypes but you don't have to as long as you have other deeper characters in force. Because at the end of the day some women want to play a super sexy chick sometime too so it not just a men fantasy all the time.

@Ace829:

You accuse me of "reframing" but whatever, you're the one trying to reframe 2,000+ years of sexist behavior created BY MEN for the benefit of MEN into something else. EVERYTHING you've said you can blame sexism towards women for. Get over yourself. I give up. You are not a feminist. Stop saying you are one.

btw, where I get my stats

http://fatuglyorslutty.com/

Im done arguing with sexists. Turning off notifactions. Goodbye messageboards.

@phantomzxro said:

@mystakin said:

@crithon said:

I have found her videos a bit trivial and she seems to have the same school of presentation to conservative commentators. I think her biggest problem is she focuses on trival issues and never grasps the reality. If it's enough to get us talking about how about "equal rights for women"? then I'm all for that, but trolling how mia is a "fighting fuck toy" that's just silly

Providing concrete examples of common sexist tropes in video games is... silly and trivial?

I feel you may be jumping the gun and taking his words out of context i kinda agree with crithon after watching i few of her videos. I'm all for equal representation of women along with races and other sexual orientations in games. but i do find that she uses a lot of little/simple examples to build up her agreement kinda of the low hanging fruit if you will. Making issue with every "sexed up female characters" and every stereotypical female.

When i find the real problem is simply having a balance. You will never stop stereotypes but you don't have to as long as you have other deeper characters in force. Because at the end of the day some women want to play a super sexy chick sometime too so it not just a men fantasy all the time.

What's wrong with her examples, exactly? I'm not understanding what makes her examples "simple." Anita's web series is not about stopping stereotypes, it's about promoting an understanding about which stereotypes are most common and what makes them harmful.

@Example1013 said:

@OppressiveStink: Guy movies don't get nominated? Oh, you must mean besides

The Dark Knight

Avatar

There Will Be Blood

127 Hours

Moneyball

Inception

District 9

Inglorious Basterds

The Fighter

True Grit

No Country For Old Men

as opposed to...The Help?

Dark Knight was a brilliant film and was not a "dude movie". The only thing "dude" about it is Batman(the character) I guess.

Explain to me how Avatar was a "dude movie".

There Will be Blood is not a "dude movie".

Like I said in my other post, it was based on a real event.

Moneyball is based on a true story too and is not a "dude movie".

Inception is a dude movie WHAT!?

District 9 was a story about discrimination and going into the shoes of what people discriminate(not a dude movie).

Inglorious Bastards had barely any action and the main character was a female.

The Fighter is based on a true story and is not a "dude movie".

True Grit was based around a teenage girl.

True Country for Old Men is definitely not a "dude movie".

Which brings up the question have you actually seen any of these movies? Also, from reading the post more in-depth that I replied to earlier, I have come to the conclusion that you're racist and sexist.

@mystakin said:

@Brodehouse said:

@mystakin

@Brodehouse said:

@Salarn You're playing at a false causation though. You build products that speak to markets, you don't build markets with products. Because you can't own a market, you can only sell to it. I'm not saying that the potential isn't there, or that someone shouldn't try marketing a game directly to women. But it works that the women appear and then the games come, not the other way around. Like I said, consider older mediums, books. They began by men, for men. Women began reading anyways, and later began writing. Eventually, there was about women, for women. But that was after the market had women readers, not before. You can't make a product that lures people into a medium they don't give a shit about. You can make a nitrous injector marketed to women and it won't matter, unless women are already anmajor demographic in street racing. It'll happen eventually anyways. More women are playing games, more women are making them. You'll see alternatives crop up as soon as the market can support them. That's why The Devil Wears Prada opened the same day as Superman Returns (and did gangbusters).

You don't build markets with products? That's exactly what the Wii and DS set out to do, and did. Women WANT to be gamers, but they're pushed away by the type of content most games contain. Here's the thing, though, I don't think most feminists want products marketed directly to women, either (I know I don't). When that happens, you get stuff like Imagine Babies or Lego Friends that play into stereotypes to sell products. Great games that feminists tout as prime examples of female roles aren't aimed at women only. Beyond Good and Evil, Portal 1 and 2, Half Life 2, these aren't products aimed at anyone except gamers. An article on the Starfire sexualization recently said it best about comic books, and it applies to games as well: "superhero comics don't even need to specifically target women as much as they need to not actively offend them."

I didn't mean "you can't" build a market, I mean that "you shouldn't". Because you can't own a market. There's nothing proprietary about a consumer, you can only have something they want or not. Nintendo is actually a great example, as they built a market and then had Zynga completely take the rug (and the consumers) from under them. Zynga didn't build a market, they simply sold to it. Zynga is rich as fuck and Nintendo is hemhorraging money. Even then, it's not that Nintendo CREATED a market, it's that they IDENTIFIED one. I'm not going to argue about this game or that game, I'm just saying; markets create products, not the other way around.

Welcome to business. Nintendo identifies a market (I'll use your termonolgy, although arguing they identified it and didn't create it is semantics) and Zynga did it better than them and stole their consumers. That's just capitalism. The problem is, you seem to think women don't want to be gamers. "The women appear and then the games come." -- "After the market had women readers, not before" -- "You can't make a product that lures people into a medium they don't give a shit about." As I said, women WANT to game, they WANT to be a part of gaming culture. Unfortunately, most hardcore games are constant reminders to women that gaming isn't for them. No matter how much they wish it was.

"Women appear and games will come" is exactly what it means. When the female market is such that they can't afford to ignore them, you'll see inclusionary games as the standard practice rather than the special mention (Ryan Payton's Republique specifically mentioned that it's lead, female protagonist is 'non-sexualized', which is completely insane even for this industry). You can't count on businesses being progressive or even respectful, but you can count on them wanting your money. Women started reading before the books were about women, just like there are women today playing video games (my girlfriend is playing Lollipop as we speak) despite the fact that they haven't been targeted (and that specifically is a game people say keeps women out of the medium). It's just a matter of time.

That said, it's not going to be that 'dudes games' suddenly become 'everyone games'. That's just not how it works. You will just see an increase in 'girl games' and to a lesser extent 'everyone games'. In film there are still 'bro movies' and 'chick flicks' and then everything else. And in general the 'everything else' gets creamed in terms of dollars (plenty of exceptions, of course) against specialized, targeted fare. I think what ends up being 'girl games' might not even really resemble what we consider 'hardcore' games when it's all said and done, just like romantic comedies don't really resemble action flicks beyond the medium and a three-act structure.

Regarding her documentary in particular, if I have a problem with it it's that it just seems like she's making money by just using the Gender and Sexuality section of TVTropes. And annoyingly, telling one half of the story because it suits her viewpoint.

@TheSlothKing: Come back when you feel like having an actual discussion. It's pointless to try and debate something with people who aren't going to even respond to my points.

@Discoman: I'm really impressed that you've never seen a woman get more harassment than getting hit on. Have you ever visited http://fatuglyorslutty.com it's an unlimited source of harassment aimed at players.

I am sorry I missed your point about cosplayers, like I said, they have the right to dress up like what ever or whomever they want to. Does it validate hypersexualized women in games? No, while they are a supporting argument, it doesn't invalidate the opinions and views of others. The entire point of this thread is how someone is be harassed and threatened for having an opinion that others found to be contradictory to their own. I don't know how many conventions you go do, but the vast majority of the cosplayers I've seen first hand at conventions are not the hand picked ones that you see making news posts. Of course we fly in different circles.

My Little Pony, which is a quality show, was not marketed towards males, it was also not marketed to exclude males. There are good male characters in the show, that have more to do than just fawn around the female characters. Without going too deep into the "brony" thing, there are quite a few people put off by the fact that as soon as there is a show that girls/women attach to, it is latched onto by the male viewers who are exclusive to the female viewers by hosting "brony cons" that even the name markets to exclude females who were the original show audience.

Actually, the game industry is concerned about how to sell games to make up for the huge and still rising costs in production. The more exclusive a game is, the smaller demographic that will buy the game. The 47% of all gamers which are female are pulling the industry towards casual/social games that are inclusive and having a reductive effect on the games that exclude female gamers (i.e. the generic FPS complaint). People will play any game, buy any product, see any move in which they are welcomed to.

@Example1013: Care to explain? Or do you have no argument and instead of backing what you said, are you just going to call people names?

@Ace829 said:

@Salarn: Don't misunderstand. I am not listing those issues to negate the issues of women. I was simply highlighting how the world we live in today disadvantages men just as much as women, albeit in a different way. I am a feminist by your definition though I'd prefer the term egalitarian since it encompasses all genders, races, orientations etc etc. Thanks for the kind words too.

Yeah poor guys having to deal with things like the still somehow existent gender pay gap. I like to think of myself as an equalist, too, and yes there are issues that many men have that deserve more attention. But let's call a spade a spade here and admit that this isn't a 50/50 split of gender discrimination throughout society, you know that as well as I do.

@mystakin I read that comic, and while it was kind of clever, I have to say that I disagreed with it. It doesn't seem fair to put all women into a category that says they like the version of GL or any other super hero that the female in the comic drew to prove her point just like it isn't fair to say that all men think the images of Catwoman you're referring to are attractive. I think she looks kind of gross, and I don't want to look at that and I'm the target demographic for that comic. I mean, do women not find muscly and heroic men attractive? The comic also seems to suggest that all men want to look like the super heroes in comics which is another thing that I don't really agree with. I want to be fit/healthy, but looking like Batman would be absurd and I'd basically have to dedicate my life to body building to even get close. I think that comic grossly oversimplifies the issue.

The article also points out only the worst aspects of females in comics, but I do agree that women need to cover up in comic books especially the Star Sapphires. Those costumes make me feel uncomfortable when I'm reading GL comics (which I really like).