Sexism in JRPGs

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FrodoBaggins

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@bisonhero: it's much more light hearted and anime. Hence the tone I mentioned.

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charlie_victor_bravo

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I would like more ass and titties in games, but I want it to be classified as "empowerment".

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Lv4Monk

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#104  Edited By Lv4Monk

Chalking it up to cultural differences that we should just "deal with" sucks. Sexism was bad before we realized it was bad and it's bad in other cultures that don't yet realize it's bad. Nobody should get a free pass for being "quirky".

None of that means you can't enjoy sexist Japanese media, we all have our own moral code for a reason.

@uhtaree said:

Don't like 'em? Don't buy 'em. Simple as that.

You're on the 3rd page in a discussion about sexism in other cultures, what made you think it was as "simple as that"?

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blackichigo

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#105  Edited By blackichigo

I'm about to go on a rambling tangent here, so sorry ahead of time.

I can't really imagine how boring and bland the world would be if every single piece of media was safe and assessable to everyone. I don't really think everything should be loved by all potential audiences. I know it's a bit odd to say but alienation kind of makes things special in a weird way.

I remember not knowing a damn thing about Twilight and going to watch it with a friend of mine because I heard it was a cool vampire movie. I remember thinking that movie was awful and horrendously boring but the friend I went with absolutely loved it. I find that to be kind of cool how two people can watch the same thing and get a totally different feeling and emotion out of it. It's very fun when I pick up a piece of media that I instantly feel like this is made for me. I don't particularly like playing video games with girls with ginormous boobs and absurd jiggle physics but I am extremely happy it exists for the people that want that.

Some people might view that as objectifying women but I never really understood that opinion, because I've always viewed fictional characters in stories as human shaped objects that moves the writers plot along. Take a horror movie for example. If all of the actors in the movie were actually being murdered, it would be for lack of a better word, horrifying to watch. Knowing it isn't real makes it entertaining.

In video games where you create a character I never really viewed it as making a person. I always saw it as an Avatar to project my actions into. They aren't real people because it would be horrendous to work a real man like a puppet.

Part of the reason why I like to read and play video games it is an escape from real things and real people. The same lonely dude who oggle's some polygonal woman in the privacy of his own living room probably wouldn't do that to an actual woman at the supermarket. For some people that's all they have. I don't want to take that from them. And if that alienates a few people, so be it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is objectifying human-like things don't really devalue the genuine article but I definitely understand an actual woman being put off by media like this. I realize that not all media can be for me and that's okay.

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Onemanarmyy

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#106  Edited By Onemanarmyy

Honestly, the state of most anime-adjacent genre's regarding sexuality, should make that market very attractive for developers to offer an alternative that's not too widespread yet. Not go for the fanservice, but release a game that features strong female characters that can handle their own. Or even offer the polar opposite and have strong ladies & scantily clad dudes in support / healer roles. In the visual novel genre, a game like Dream Daddies immediatly caught the eye of newcomers to the genre just because it had a different premise than 99% of the other visual novels out there. If the fanservice drives people away from the genre, making a game that doesn't rely on that could be quite successful. Just like how a game like Monkey Island immediatly stood out between the D&D inspired fantasy adventure games of that era. One glance , and you know it offers something different. Immediatly intriguing.

I don't think that fanservice should dissapear, but there should be a counterweight. Everyone should be able to find something that they can get excited for.

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acharlie1377

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@blackichigo: I can definitely understand entertainment that "isn't for everyone," and I agree that if all entertainment was made to placate every demographic, it would be a sad day. That said, I don't think you can go to the other end of the spectrum and say that all entertainment is okay, if it entertains someone. For example, if something horribly racist like Birth of a Nation came out today, I don't think you could validate it as being acceptable, just because it plays well to white supremacists. Everyone has their personal line of what they like, but there are also moral and societal lines of how people should be treated and viewed. I'm obviously not the person who decides these lines, but I think it's dangerous to justify potentially offensive and objectifying entertainment as "eh, it's not for everyone."

Similarly, it's problematic to act as if entertainment is just "human shaped objects that moves the writers plots along," as you say. The reason we enjoy things like horror and romance is that we identify with the characters on screen; something like The Room fails to elicit emotion because we don't believe the on-screen events enough to feel for the characters. So, when something like XC2 shows us these characters, however fantastical they are, we still have to assume they have relatively human personalities and behaviors, otherwise the plot loses all meaning. When the female characters are all defined by their looks, and personalities are judged based on how subservient they are, it suggests that all or most women are like this, or at least should be like this. No-one actually believes these half-dressed living weapons are real people, but they have to at least identify with them as characters to associate with them, and it's bad when those characters perpetuate degrading stereotypes.

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Lv4Monk

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Gross shit isn't OK just because someone else is OK with it. There's a wide world between "everyone's the same" and "sexism is fine".

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blackichigo

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#109  Edited By blackichigo

@acharlie1377: I'm not trying to change the world anything man. I'm just giving my opinion. That is genuinely how I view fictional characters. I can't really argue with you on that.

I don't really understand where you draw the line on what's okay for one person and was okay for another person to enjoy. There's a huge difference between a person that wants to play Senran Kagura Peach Beach Splash and Agony. 90% of the world would agree that both of those games are kind of gross and shouldn't be played by anyone, but there are groups of people on the internet that would die on their sword defend their ability to play them.

If it makes you feel any better public opinion do change over time. There was a point in time where people would travel for miles just to watch a real execution live. I'm sure, around the world, there are people that still do that. But we mostly look at people that would go to one as a psychopath these days.

You mentioned Birth of a Nation and I truly believe that that is one of the most important films to ever be released. It's not because of its really despicable content, but because of that is something that was considered acceptable by audiences at the time. I find that whole situation fascinating. It gives us a window into the mind of people that would make such a thing. I feel that most people, at least publicly, would agree that that film is despicable.

Sometimes bad things need to happen for us to learn lessons from them. If someone didn't find women in the games mentioned in this thread offensive we would never have this conversation. I find it absolutely fascinating that something like Senran Kagura Peach Beach Splash, might one day be in important talking piece on why we shouldn't objectify women in video games but for right now, I'm happy just saying it ain't for me.

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carlthenimrod

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When the female characters are all defined by their looks, and personalities are judged based on how subservient they are, it suggests that all or most women are like this, or at least should be like this.

I haven't played VC2 but why does that say that about women as a whole versus just about those characters?

I think that is where this breaks for a lot of people. I generally take characters at face value and don't attribute a deeper hidden meaning to them. Giving video game characters flaws or insecurities gives them weight and makes them actually believable to me. But I don't believe that always has to say something about society as a whole or what not.

Again, I haven't played VC2, maybe that game does a bad job and has bad characters, or maybe it is straight up sexist, but I do believe people are too quick to attribute some deeper hidden meaning to this stuff. Having characters with negative traits is important and those negative traits don't always need to be overtly confronted one way or the other. People are imperfect.

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DonPixel

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#111  Edited By DonPixel

I find the gun fetishism and war mongering of COD games far more offensive, toxic, and actually dangerous to the human race

but hey, I'm not american, and have always find strange then things that are seen as offensive in the land of the free

Lets just say sexy anime girls are not actually triggering a public mass shooting epidemic in japan

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Rejizzle

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@donpixel said:

I find the gun fetishism and war mongering of COD games far more offensive, toxic, and actually dangerous to the human race

Here's an article you'll probably like: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-02-01-shooters-how-video-games-fund-arms-manufacturers

There's plenty of critiques you can make against games glamorizing war, but just because sexism may be considered the lesser of two evils doesn't negate the damage it can do. Something like the Valkyria Chronicles 4 thing that made the rounds a couple weeks back may seem innocent enough, but it normalizes a "boys will be boys" attitude that really just boils down to siding against victims.

Anyways, maybe the OP should look at the Suikoden games. They're all available on PSN in some form or another, and don't remember any egregious examples of sexism in them.

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kcin

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@donpixel said:

I find the gun fetishism and war mongering of COD games far more offensive, toxic, and actually dangerous to the human race

but hey, I'm not american, and have always find strange then things that are seen as offensive in the land of the free

Lets just say sexy anime girls are not actually triggering a public mass shooting epidemic in japan

ya wouldnt fuckin believe it but two different things can be bad at the same time!!!!

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acharlie1377

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@donpixel: COD games almost certainly contribute to the gun violence issues in America, but they have not caused a "public mass shooting epidemic"; mass shootings and gun violence have actually been decreasing steadily over the past couple decades. COD is making it worse, I'm sure, but just as XC2 didn't cause huge spikes in sexual assaults, COD hasn't caused a huge spike in mass shootings.

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acharlie1377

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@carlthenimrod: I'll assume you mean Xenoblade Chronicles 2 when you say VC2. I've mentioned some of these scenes before, but the entire attitude of that game towards the vast majority of its female characters is pretty problematic. There is a scene where an artificial Blade teaches another Blade how to act like a better sex maid to her owner; this isn't played as a "wow, this is completely backwards," it's played as "aww, this innocent girl doesn't understand how to be a good waifu for her master! Hilarious!" There are also numerous female characters whose sole personality traits are or become "in love with male character X," or "obsessed with money and fashion." There are a lot of other examples, but it boils down to the fact that when such a high percentage of female characters are written like this, it becomes less a statement about those characters, and more a statement about women in general. Even when female characters are shown as independent in the game, that's rarely shown as being a ppsitive; instead, it means they're bossy or overbearing. It presents the ideal woman as someone who is (a) hot, (b) subservient, and (c) pretty much nothing else.

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I like sexy characters in games and I still enjoy the classic anime jokes like guy stumbling and falling into a womans boobs and she gets angry or guy walks into the wrong side of the hot springs and sees boobs and get noose bleed and the woman kicks him into the sky and scream hentai!.

That said some of the best stories do not focus on sexy female characters. Persona 4 for example has amazing characters. You do not need sexy characters to tell a good story and most games that focus on fanservice end up not being great story wise. But visual novels on the other hand can have really emotional stories and still have sex scenes so there are ways to tell a great story with sexual content.

I think it boils down to if the female character has enough personality or not. If she is just a pair of tits and no personality then in most cases the game is not good but a woman can be sexy and still be an interesting character. I've not finished Persona 5 but Ann seems from what I've played to be an interesting character despite her sexualized appearence. Or maybe because of it since her story revolves around it. She does not appear to be there just as a sexy doll with no personality of her own.

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df

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What I don't understand is why some commenters keep trying to connect "silly fantasy" with "real life consequences". Like aren't we able to distinguish between pro-wrestling and real life?

Why can't we distinguish between fan service and overt sexist? Why is it ok to say "yeah it's pro-wrestling so it's silly" but not ok to say "yeah it's JRPG so it's silly"?

Sure you can claim they are both bad, but to make assertion that JRPG enables sexism or Pro-wrestling enables violence, you need more than "bad".

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#118  Edited By df

To add, I am not making the moral equivalence that "many things are bad so it's ok for this thing to be bad."

I am saying it takes some efforts to distinguish the "bad but funny" part and the "downright unacceptable" part. They can be similar, so it's easy to write them off together.

For me, it's damn obvious none of the fan service is considered to be socially acceptable in real life. Which is why many games address such content in side story (see Yakuza).

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MostlySquares

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@df said:

What I don't understand is why some commenters keep trying to connect "silly fantasy" with "real life consequences". Like aren't we able to distinguish between pro-wrestling and real life?n "bad".

What I don't get is how that is even an argument. You must know that even far fetched nonsensical stories do have an impact? Take Wolf of Wall Street for example.. It's a movie about atrocious filth screwing everyone over with a huge grin on their face. To most people, that's how it's seen. Filthy scum being filthy scum... However, to a surprisingly large amount of people, that movie is a tale of heroes. "I want to be that guy!!!" seems about as common as "that guy is a piece of filth."

Now take super sexist games into account.. We know there are hardcore sexists out there. We know this because the social conservatives constantly put them on a pedestal and excuse their actions. How do you think they view a game like XC2? You must know that there are horrible humans out there who see that stuff as a confirmation that their opinion is not theirs alone, right? They see how this fantasy of treating women like the property of men/nothing but man-hungry soulless master-pleasers is shared by game developers, and the game has gone through a whole development cycle, likely with multiple female devs on staff, and it's gone through just fine, it's an acceptable piece of art, and it places NO emphasis on the fact that it's supposed to be nonsense. It paints a world where women are nothings.

Do you think that has no effect on real life? Separating fiction from reality doesn't matter.. The stories told are what matters. And the story told in a lot of these games are "Men (You) do the heroics, ladies titilate the men with their sexiness, and if you're heroic enough, you get to fuck'em!"

Now read about Jordan Peterson and his minions. Read about how there's an actual movement of guys who very much see the world as if it owes them a partner because that's what the movies have said for all eternity. It's insane fiction spun up by Disney, but to a lot of people in present day western societies, some men very much believe the Disney narrative. Find a mate, make a family, get a Volvo and a dog and so on and so forth. It's piss, but it's what we've been made to believe through media, because NO MATTER HOW FAR FETCHED, it still has an effect on people.

We know the difference between fantasy and reality, yet there are millions of people who believe in "true love" and "the one" and all that garbage. Stories mean different things to different people. Again, Wolf of Wall Street is a movie about monsters to some, and godlike heroes to others.

Sexist pigs are obvious villains to some, but to sexist pigs they are heroes who see the truth for what it is.

Separating fantasy from reality isn't an argument that has any sway what so ever. Silly fantasies have real world consequences. Most mass shootings are just awesome acts of revenge in the eyes of lunatics. Normalizing and glorifying violence, sexism and whatnot only serves to make the psychos more sure in their conviction that ladies secretly want to be groped and so on.

Fantasy and fiction has a huge effect on the dumb and malicious who actively seek justification for their actions. That's just a matter of fact. The more conspiracy theorists that you see in the mainstream media, the more people believe in conspiracy theories regardless of how obvious it is to you and me that they're being sold bullshit. People are dumb and will believe what feels good.

If you're a rapist, any piece of media that normalizes your horrible violent impulses or promotes a narrative where women are just there for the men feels like forgiveness and a permit to continue being filth. If someone else tells you about their darkest secrets and you have the same secrets, it's far more likely that you'll feel better about your darkest secrets. If a game glosses over the fact that women are humans, that feels pretty nice to a person who sees women as semi sentient fleshlights.

Thanks for reading.

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millionthlayla

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@mostlysquares: See also: the uncritical adulation of Walter White from Breaking Bad.

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IBMer

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#122  Edited By IBMer

https://www.pcgamer.com/every-penis-in-assassins-creed-odyssey-rated/

I feel this is relevant to this topic. Can you imagine the outrage if this was about bust or rump size on female characters? From PC Gamer of all places, this isn't some niche horny site.

Men are allowed to be viewed as just meat spanning from Kotaku writing articles about the size of Luigi's cock to this nonsense. Bunch of hypocrites all over the net, I despise these gross articles.

This is the part where I would get called an MRA or accused of "whataboutism".

Damn it I am getting annoyed every time I see that PC Gamer link. This is why I stopped engaging on gaming sites because when stuff like this gets brought up there is so much unchecked hypocrisy and I cannot stand it...

No no no... I am going back in my bubble where I only listen to the Bombcast and Easy Allies and ignore garbage articles and forum debates, good day!! D:

@dagas said:

I think it boils down to if the female character has enough personality or not. If she is just a pair of tits and no personality then in most cases the game is not good but a woman can be sexy and still be an interesting character. I've not finished Persona 5 but Ann seems from what I've played to be an interesting character despite her sexualized appearence. Or maybe because of it since her story revolves around it. She does not appear to be there just as a sexy doll with no personality of her own.

Ann is also a model if I remember right so it feels out of place to complain about her being sexualised, that usually goes hand in hand with being a model.

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deactivated-5d5f33a6b34f9

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@ibmer: If a woman did an article on butt or breast size no, I don't think there would be outrage or controversial.
Why do you assume that?

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Onemanarmyy

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#124  Edited By Onemanarmyy

@ibmer:

do you want me to write these things about you so you don't have to set it up yourself? :P Seems rather odd to have to create your own enemies and announce that you will not be entertaining any replies, while continuing to enter the thread at a later moment to engage with the subject again.

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df

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@df said:

What I don't understand is why some commenters keep trying to connect "silly fantasy" with "real life consequences". Like aren't we able to distinguish between pro-wrestling and real life?n "bad".

What I don't get is how that is even an argument. You must know that even far fetched nonsensical stories do have an impact? Take Wolf of Wall Street for example.. It's a movie about atrocious filth screwing everyone over with a huge grin on their face. To most people, that's how it's seen. Filthy scum being filthy scum... However, to a surprisingly large amount of people, that movie is a tale of heroes. "I want to be that guy!!!" seems about as common as "that guy is a piece of filth."

Now take super sexist games into account.. We know there are hardcore sexists out there. We know this because the social conservatives constantly put them on a pedestal and excuse their actions. How do you think they view a game like XC2? You must know that there are horrible humans out there who see that stuff as a confirmation that their opinion is not theirs alone, right? They see how this fantasy of treating women like the property of men/nothing but man-hungry soulless master-pleasers is shared by game developers, and the game has gone through a whole development cycle, likely with multiple female devs on staff, and it's gone through just fine, it's an acceptable piece of art, and it places NO emphasis on the fact that it's supposed to be nonsense. It paints a world where women are nothings.

Do you think that has no effect on real life? Separating fiction from reality doesn't matter.. The stories told are what matters. And the story told in a lot of these games are "Men (You) do the heroics, ladies titilate the men with their sexiness, and if you're heroic enough, you get to fuck'em!"

Now read about Jordan Peterson and his minions. Read about how there's an actual movement of guys who very much see the world as if it owes them a partner because that's what the movies have said for all eternity. It's insane fiction spun up by Disney, but to a lot of people in present day western societies, some men very much believe the Disney narrative. Find a mate, make a family, get a Volvo and a dog and so on and so forth. It's piss, but it's what we've been made to believe through media, because NO MATTER HOW FAR FETCHED, it still has an effect on people.

We know the difference between fantasy and reality, yet there are millions of people who believe in "true love" and "the one" and all that garbage. Stories mean different things to different people. Again, Wolf of Wall Street is a movie about monsters to some, and godlike heroes to others.

Sexist pigs are obvious villains to some, but to sexist pigs they are heroes who see the truth for what it is.

Separating fantasy from reality isn't an argument that has any sway what so ever. Silly fantasies have real world consequences. Most mass shootings are just awesome acts of revenge in the eyes of lunatics. Normalizing and glorifying violence, sexism and whatnot only serves to make the psychos more sure in their conviction that ladies secretly want to be groped and so on.

Fantasy and fiction has a huge effect on the dumb and malicious who actively seek justification for their actions. That's just a matter of fact. The more conspiracy theorists that you see in the mainstream media, the more people believe in conspiracy theories regardless of how obvious it is to you and me that they're being sold bullshit. People are dumb and will believe what feels good.

If you're a rapist, any piece of media that normalizes your horrible violent impulses or promotes a narrative where women are just there for the men feels like forgiveness and a permit to continue being filth. If someone else tells you about their darkest secrets and you have the same secrets, it's far more likely that you'll feel better about your darkest secrets. If a game glosses over the fact that women are humans, that feels pretty nice to a person who sees women as semi sentient fleshlights.

Thanks for reading.

Hey mate, I am not going to counter your argument line by line, it's probably a waste of your time and mine. So I am just going to post this video and say I agree with most of these points. XC2 has it's fair share of design issues: but sexist theme is not one of them.

Say what you will about media validation and slippery slopes. Sexualization != Sexist Theme.

Loading Video...
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cliffordbanes

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#126  Edited By cliffordbanes

@acharlie1377: Yeah, much of anime and JRPGS have turned into garbage as they've chosen to market to a certain demographic. Western games, movies and comics suffer from the same issue although perhaps not to the same extent. It's a sad fact but it's 2018 but people are still stuck in the 1800's or biblical times when it comes to not being shitty. If you look at American culture it's still fucked up. The response to recent current events in France show that sexism is very entrenched. Even supposedly progressive countries are still garbage.

People bring up violence as a counter-argument or present a false choice between guns and sexism but you can think that both glorifying violence and sexism is bad. It's possible to criticize both. Thankfully there are enough good games that you can ignore the ones who suck.

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deactivated-5c26fd6917af0

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@df: Basically what I was trying to get at in my post: that anything that is sexist about the game is no different from what you would find in any Western media. One of the problems with attacking things for having characters who wear revealing clothing or having a sexual point of view is you're telling girls and women to be ashamed of their sexuality. This in itself is a sexist point of view because it by its nature gives preference to one form of sexuality over the other.

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acharlie1377

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#128  Edited By acharlie1377

@lyisa: I don't think you can say that this:

No Caption Provided

is no different from this:

No Caption Provided

There's a huge difference between telling girls that sexuality is shameful, and telling girls that sexuality isn't the only important female characteristic. In games like Shadow of the Tomb Raider and AC: Odyssey, the female leads are attractive, but they also have personalities and characteristics outside of their appearance. In XC2, most of the female characters, including the leads, lack that; they're sexualized for the sake of the "male gaze" (as mentioned in the video @df posted), without any justification, and are defined by their appearance and nothing else.

Games like XC2 are forcing this sexualization on female characters, without any reason other than "because men like hot girls." It reduces the female characters to little more than sex objects; considering sexism is defined as "prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex", objectifying women in games should absolutely be considered at least perpetuating sexism, if not actively promoting it.

EDIT: I'm not trying to say "Japan is sexist, America is not, USA, USA"; I'm specifically referring to how the artists and developers of these specific games differ in their treatment of women. XC2 obviously doesn't represent all or most of Japan, or even all or most of Japanese video games, and acting like one game represents an entire culture is wrong and stereotypical. That's kind of the point I'm making: when a game like XC2 represents women as objects to be judged by their looks and nothing else, it stereotypes and undervalues an entire gender.

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deactivated-5c26fd6917af0

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@acharlie1377: Your mistake is in thinking sexism is about appearance. It does not. Furthermore, the game does not reduce Mythra to being about her appearance, she has a personality and characteristics. You are reducing her to her appearance for the sake of your argument. You are using Mythra as part of your argument for objectification and her appearance, but completely ignoring that characterization is part of what creates the Pyra persona of her because she is ashamed of her actions and personality. It is a central component to her story, done well or not. Furthermore, there are characters like Morag who are strong women in the game who are not generally portrayed in a sexually charged way. The objectification in the game comes from using the term blade as treatment of living beings and is another component of the game (that I feel is under explored). However, there are male and female blades with varying degrees of sexualization. You are also asking people to hate how Mythra looks, male or female, because you find it overly sexual.

On male gaze, I would refer to Maddy Myer's intro in an article on Bayonetta a few years ago Femme Doms in Videogames: Bayonetta Doesn’t Care If She’s Not Your Kink in which Myers argues that male gaze is a myth.

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acharlie1377

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#130  Edited By acharlie1377

@lyisa: Sexism isn't solely about appearance, but it absolutely can be about appearance. I'll admit that Mythra has a personality outside of her appearance, but her appearance still tends to come before anything else; one of the first scenes after meeting her is Rex waking up and staring at her breasts. Comparing her to her counterpart Malos, he is almost completely unsexualized, and his design reflects who he is as a character; Mythra's design, on the other hand, doesn't reflect anything about her.

Morag, on the other hand, is not sexualized at all, but this is actually justified in-game as her being masculine; Tora mistakes her for a man, and the other characters admit that she dresses like a man, even though her clothes aren't inherently masculine, and she does nothing to suggest she isn't a woman. There are more examples of this, but the idea comes across that someone like Morag, who is strong and independent, is less feminine because of it. This sort of thing also comes up in the scene where Poppi teaches Pyra how to be a better, more submissive servant to Rex; her having any sort of independence is considered undesirable. In these cases, the objectification of the female characters goes beyond their appearance to how they are expected to act. I think that fact that every single female character (barring 3 or 4, out of a total of 30-ish) is hyper-sexualized is problematic, but even if they weren't, the attitude toward how a woman should act in this game is still insane.

Regarding your point about male sexualization, I think it's safe to say that, while it may happen, it is far less severe than the female sexualization. All the main male characters (Rex, Zeke, Vandham, Malos, Jin) are never once treated as sexual objects, or ogled at by the camera; these characters are judged by their character and beliefs, whereas the female characters are judged by their submissiveness and appearance.

Referring to your article, the reason Bayonetta mostly escapes this is that she is never not in charge of her body, or her character; even her sexualized appearance is described as her choice, since her clothes are made from her hair. She doesn't care who judges her or deems her "inappropriate." Again, the appearance of the female characters is actually secondary to how they are portrayed. Even Mythra, meant to be the most powerful weapon in existence, is easily reduced to arguing about fashion and "girl talk," and her more independent traits are criticized as being bossy or stubborn. Any trait the female characters have that doesn't fit into a submissive, sexualized stereotype is considered undesirable, and that all combines into an idealized version of women that are sexy and submissive, with nothing else being important.

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@acharlie1377: When you start arguing personality you are going beyond objectification, but are delving into more meaningful versions of sexism, which are just as present in Western games which is exactly my point. I agree with those aspects as you bring them up. If you refer to my first post in this thread (on page 2) I bring up that there are sexist elements to the game, but those same elements, behavioral elements, are just as present in Western games and media so pretending its just a JRPG thing is silly. However, your entire argument up until now has been that the only value of women in XBC2 is their appearance, which is not true.

Sexualizing characters is not problematic because it doesn't say anything on its own. All it says is you are uncomfortable with female sexuality and the female body. This is only viewed as harmful to you because you feel uncomfortable by it, which is part of the problem. It is one of the things that comes up with real world rape a lot that women who wear revealing clothes (or any clothes that somebody finds attractive) is "asking for it" which is just as much telling women to be afraid of, or ashamed, of their own sexuality and body. That is why it is problematic to condemn something for having scantily clad characters, because it goes the other direction of oppressing women. Objectification is not a myth in the same way male gaze is, but Pyra, Mythra, or any female character in the game does not exhibit this because they play vital roles to the story. If you were to remove any female character the story would be lessened and would change dramatically. In this regard you are misusing the term objectification, that is to say that the only value that these women play in the game is as scene dressing.

Also the article I linked was in regard to male gaze not the rest of it. I pointed that out when I linked it. The point of male gaze as a concept delegitimize points of view on sexuality that are not hetero in nature by assuming that only men find it pleasing or that all men find it pleasing, which is not the case in any sense. It is a very heteronormative way to view the world that is provably false. However, Bayonetta does engage in feminine behavior as you described. I mean, the opening scene of Bayonetta 2 is her shopping.

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Onemanarmyy

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#132  Edited By Onemanarmyy

I think when a game features a robot being programmed to be an obedient sexbot made to dress up in maid outfits for it's master & the sexualized ladies actually start calling eachother out on their nonsensical designs that only make sense as a sexual stimulant instead of being useful in battle, the game is not even being subtle with what they're doing. When the writers start critiquing their own game in front of the audience, why wouldn't they just adjust the game so they don't have to critique it? Because it serves a different purpose than being congruent with the story & the world. Why the hell do all these dudes need to wear armor when the female tankcharacter shows up half naked?

Sure, you can find one or two female blades with a design that makes sense for battle among the 20 something ladies. The other ones are designed as eye candy. The video earlier posted in this thread highlights plenty questionable stuff surrounding the game. It's a shame when you see that they do have some cool character ideas. With Pandoria's glasses becoming less & less foggy as the blade trusts you more & Poppi slowly becoming more than just a robot.

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acharlie1377

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@lyisa: Mythra and Pyra may play vital roles to the story, but their roles are almost exclusively relegated to "weapon" or "damsel in distress." To put it in perspective, if Pyra/Mythra were just actual weapons, without any sentience, the plot would be largely unaffected; we'd lose the romance between Rex and Pyra, but Malos and the others trying to steal the Aegis would still happen, and the overall plot would mostly stay the same. Note that the same thing doesn't hold true for Blades like Malos or Jin; if they were no longer given sentience, huge plot points simply... wouldn't happen. I don't think the only important thing about these characters is their appearance, but it is the most important thing, and the game treats any independent qualities of these characters as detrimental. In a way, it's worse than objectification, as not only are the female characters expected to wear skimpy outfits, but they're also expected to be meek or submissive.

Also, it's incorrect to say sexualization "doesn't say anything on its own." While not exactly sexualized, Barbie dolls received a lot of backlash in modern times because it created an unrealistic standard of beauty; essentially, it told girls that there was an ideal to strive for, and if you didn't fit into this ideal you were somehow inferior. XC2 does a similar thing; by presenting a cast of female characters that are all hyper-sexualized, with the ones who aren't sexualized being considered masculine or abnormal, it creates an ideal of what all women should look and act like. If you say that it doesn't do that because it's just fan service meant to appeal to men, that brings things back to the male gaze. If these characters are all sexualized for straight men, that's obviously a problem, but if they aren't, it's creating an unrealistic and offensive standard of an ideal woman.

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@acharlie1377: You're misconstruing several issues on the beauty standards argument and as a whole moving the goal posts of your point. It would be the case to say that it is creating unrealistic beauty standards if all the characters looked similar, but they do not. It represents several different body types. This would be a fair argument to levy at Senran Kagura, which exclusively features busty ladies, but XBC2 definitely not. Furthermore, beauty standards and sexualization are not necessarily linked as you are describing. You are still describing a situation that says to girls, "You need to cover up or men might enjoy it/take advantage of it." And again, you're still approaching this from a hetero perspective in saying that it is for straight men. You're trying to use blanket arguments to argue against something more complicated than you're approaching it with.

As far as what you are saying about Pyra/Mythra you are very wrong. The game relies on their sentience and agency to move forward. Both of them make decisions and perform actions on their own throughout the game. Furthermore, Rex's relationship with Pyra/Mythra is important to the game so discounting that entirely is disingenuous. One of the points of the game on blades isn't that they are just weapons, that they do have sentience and agency and this is illustrated through the relationship between Rex and Pyra/Mythra. It is a counterpoint to the Jin/Malos "Humans must serve blades" argument; it is an argument that blades and humans can co-exist, love one another, and be equals with each other. So describing that as the only loss is not only false, it is removing an important part of the narrative.

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Man, about 8-9 years ago there were some very prominent members of the community that would have made this thread into a big ole shit show over this. Obviously, none of them visit this website any more.

Also, the defense of "it caters to a demographic, whaddaya want?" Is the laziest intellectual argument one can have. It says nothing of the actual content itself, or the problems it creates, but basically defends it on the merits of it being common, and around for long enough to become standard. Seriously, what a viciously unintelligent thought process. Following that line of logic I could come up with any hilariously awful game concept (Roofie simulator genre!) and imagine it as being common enough that half the people on this thread would say "I dunno, I've played roofie simulators all my life, and they're real huge in Nordic countries so whaddaya gonna do? I just let it wash over me."

Just because something comes from a different culture, does not means we can't judge that culture. We absolutely can. Some aspects of other cultures are fucked up. They don't get a pass because it's their culture.

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acharlie1377

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@lyisa: If I remember correctly, there are really only two body types the sexualized female Blades fall into:

  1. Skinny with large breasts and a skimpy outfit
  2. Skinny with small breasts and a skimpy outfit

The only female Blades that don't fall into this that I can recall (out of a total of 25-ish female Blades) are Adenine, Ursula, Kasandra and the base form of Poppi, and three of the four of those are young children. I also don't mean to suggest that skimpy outfits are not okay; rather, I'm making the argument that the game is presenting the message as, "If you don't look like this and don't act like this, you are inferior." I don't think those appearances should be inherently wrong, but they shouldn't be presented as the "correct" way to look and act. XC2 really only provides a small subset of "desirable" physical appearances and behaviors, and anyone else (like Morag or Nia) is considered incorrect in some way. It also suggests that men ogling these women, just because they dress a certain way, is okay; when Rex wakes up next to Mythra she calls him a pervert, but Gramps half-justifies it by mentioning how provocatively she's dressed. It's a more subtle way of saying "she asked for it," but it puts the blame on women for men staring at and slobbering over them.

Regarding Pyra/Mythra, can you provide me with examples of them making choices that would require them to be sentient beings? If you ignore the sacrifice they make at the end of the game (which wouldn't be as emotional if it was just a weapon anyways), I genuinely can't remember a moment where Pyra or Mythra move the plot forward in a way unique to their characters, especially if you consider moments like Pyra reviving Rex or Rex revealing Pneuma as the weapon deciding Rex is "worthy" (like a Thor-Mjolnir thing). I absolutely could be wrong about that, but to my memory the plot seems driven forwards almost exclusively by the male characters. Pyra/Mythra also aren't necessary for the "humans and Blades coexisting" themes, since any Blades would suit that purpose just as well.

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@acharlie1377: Its been a long time since I've played the game so no, I can't provide a specific example, but I'm absolutely certain it happens. Regardless, however, any singular moment, even the romance subplot, is important enough to count.

And go look at blades again, it is not as simple as that. There are tall, short, wider, thinner, buffer, and frailer aspects of blade appearance that vary. And I get that you think its presenting that message but you're literally arguing the same thing as you think they are by saying the appearance is the issue (as you did with comparing Lara to Mythra, as you are by reducing them to breast size and outfit choice). I've said before, and I will say repeatedly, the sexism is not how they're dressed or presented it is how characters react to the sexualization and normalize that that is the problem. You arguing that the appearance aspect of it is literally saying that there is a correct way for women to appear. That is just as problematic.

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Turambar

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#138  Edited By Turambar

@acharlie1377 said:

I'm making the argument that the game is presenting the message as, "If you don't look like this and don't act like this, you are inferior."

This is the part of this argument that loses me.

Barbie dolls were directed towards an audience that were suppose to see the dolls as a formative part of the development of their self-image. As overly sexualized as many video game characters are (in this case, in XC2), I do not see it being delivered with anything close to that message due to the vast difference in their audience.

If one was to take your argument and apply it fully, the expectation should be that Pneuma would be in an attire far skimpier than both Pyra and Mythra given her role in the game. However, visually, her design is far less revealing than the other two. Additionally, it is strange you bring up Nia and Morag, especially when the latter is one of the most popular characters in the game among the fan community, meaning players are not interpreting the message of "skimpy and submissive is the correct act" for themselves either.

Note, this is not saying that XC2 does not sexualize the female blades. However, this argument that is trying to attribute purposeful malice simply does not hold water.

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#139  Edited By Turambar

@acharlie1377 said:

The only female Blades that don't fall into this that I can recall (out of a total of 25-ish female Blades) are Adenine, Ursula, Kasandra and the base form of Poppi, and three of the four of those are young children.

I'm going to preface this by saying this shouldn't be treated as an argument, because I don't really think over sexualization should some how be countered by "we have a bunch of non-sexualized characters, isn't that enough?"

That said, since I do personally like numbers and you unintentionally primed it with that line there, I took a look at all the non-dlc female rare blades in the game. (Non-dlc since the set of images didn't have them for some reason.)

There are a total of 19 of them

5 of them can be classified safely as not scantily dressed at all: Azami, Adenine, Ursula, Kasandra, Agate

6 of them has some amounts of skin showing, but the general design of the character is not to use that for titillation purposes: Nim, Electra, Vess, Vale, Herald, Kos-Mos

8 of them are extremely scantily clad or have poses/proportions that achieve the same purpose: Perun, Newt, Kora, Zenobia, Praxis, Theory, Sheba, Dhalia.

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im honestly just tired of everyone being offended by everything. Men are portrayed as the big dumb pig all the time and you dont hear people crying. If you dont like something just move on. Dont get all hurt and cry about it.

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acharlie1377

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@lyisa: If you can't remember a moment where Pyra/Mythra actively drives the story forward (other than the romantic subplot), then her function in the story is essentially just a damsel-in-distress or generic love interest, like an old-fashioned Western or spy movie. When the main female character is given very little agency in their own story, it's hard to justify the game's perspective on women. An example that comes to mind is Indy's love interest from Temple of Doom; remove her from the movie, and it functions almost identically, only without someone to fall in love with Indy for the rest of the movie. And if after playing a game for 60-180 hours, you can't remember a single scene in which the main character does anything to propel the plot, I'd argue their impact couldn't have been incredibly significant.

If sexism truly only comes from how the characters react to this sexualization, there is still the issue of how the characters react to the female characters' appearance and actions. With regard to appearance, I'll mention again that Morag was mistaken for a male, or least described as masculine, by many of the main characters; a similar reaction is given to Nia. Considering these two are the only female characters with no sexualization at all, and their appearance is immediately treated as abnormal, shows that the world reacts to sexualized characters as 'normal', and non-sexualized characters as 'abnormal'. With regard to actions, I'd refer you to Poppi's scene with Pyra on how to better serve Rex; when a female character is less subservient, it's immediately considered an issue by some of the other characters. That scene doesn't end with another character, or Pyra, expressing disapproval; it ends with Poppi teaching Pyra how to be better at serving Rex and "cheering him up." There's also Kora's side quest, in which she and Mythra debate on who has the most "girl power," by arguing who is better at talking, has better fashion sense, and is hotter. The end of this quest isn't with them learning that isn't what girl power is, or anything after-school-specially like that; it ends with them being forced to dance in front of the other characters, because they were being to forward and annoying.

Even if you disagree that these characters appearances have any sexist connotations, the reactions of characters to un-sexualized and independent characters shows that the 'normal' idea of femininity in the game is to be sexualized and subservient, and acting or appearing otherwise is treated as strange or incongruous.

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@turambar said:

Note, this is not saying that XC2 does not sexualize the female blades. However, this argument that is trying to attribute purposeful malice simply does not hold water.

It doesn't have to be purposeful or actively malicious (I don't think acharlie would say X2 is either of these things) for it to still be present. And the presence of something can reinforce negative stereotypes regardless of intention.

Yo OP, you ever play a Pokémon game? Maybe "Let's Go Pikachu" is up your alley.

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acharlie1377

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@turambar: Yeah, my argument about Barbie dolls is a bit of a hyperbole; obviously the ages, demographics, and even bluntness of the message is much different between those two areas. My main point was that appearance by itself can be objectifying to women; @lyisa argued that appearance alone means nothing with regards to sexism, and I was trying to make the point that it absolutely can still mean something on its own.

That said, I don't think Pneuma is a big enough character to be considered by her sexualization, or really anything at all; I only remember Pneuma being the third form of the Aegis, but you never really speak to her at length, you can't choose to call her by the name Pneuma near the end of the game, and when both Pyra and Mythra come back at the end of the game, there is no mention of Pneuma.

Regarding the community reaction to Nia and Morag, I will admit it's a tricky subject; obviously, not everyone is going to play this game and take away something problematic from it. I think it is more about people who (a) already have a poor opinion of women, and (b) people who might still be developing (this group can be as old as mid-20s, I would say). For those groups, presenting sexualized women as the norm and un-sexualized women as masculine or abnormal perpetuates stereotypes about women. I apologize if I ended up attributing "purposeful malice," as you wrote; I don't think this game actively pushes a misogynist agenda, but it does help perpetuate the biases of people who may already have those biases, or be less guarded about things like that.

I'm glad you actually ran the numbers on the Blades; I was worried my memory might have been incredibly inaccurate, but I don't think I was especially inaccurate. It's actually upsetting to see your list, as some of my favorite Blades/Blade quests come from the Blades that are significantly less sexualized (Adenine and Agate were probably my favorites), and the ones that are the most sexualized have arguably the weakest Blade quests (Kora, Sheba, Dahlia).

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acharlie1377

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#144  Edited By acharlie1377

@rejizzle: I really liked some of the Pokemon games I played, and I love everything about how wholesome and fun the world is... I just think Pokemon Let's Go! looks like one of the most tedious Pokemon games possible. The fact that wild Pokemon aren't battled, just caught (using Pokemon Go-esque controls), and the world is just the same as Pokemon Yellow (I think), has left me completely cold on this game. I'd love to be proven wrong, and I'm excited as all get-out for the Pokemon RPG coming next year, but the newest one doesn't really excite me. Is there something about it that particularly interests you? Maybe I missed some interesting news...

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Rejizzle

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@acharlie1377: Nothing about it particularly interests me. Haven't played a Pokémon game since Diamond. Every time one comes around I think about buying it, but something else draws my attention away. Was just thinking of some wholesome JRPGs.

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> help perpetuate the biases of people who may already have those biases, or be less guarded about things like that.

I just can't see this as a sensible criticism. I can accept that it could be *true*, but not that it's something a game should be knocked for.

In the case of XC2 specifically, I haven't finished that game yet, but so far it sure seemed like Pyra being forced to be / act a certain way is something she is struggling with and seems like it is a big theme of the story (in particular how she is a special *created* being---but I haven't gotten far enough in the story to know what "blades" really are). This thread has also referenced multiple times a scene where Poppi instructs Pyra on how to be a better servant---I haven't seen this particular scene myself, but I *do* know that Poppi is an artificial blade created by what is basically an otaku character and is *programmed* to be a servant. I think it's more than fair to say the world in XC2 contains several examples of sexist attitudes (as well as even worse forms of discrimination), but I would disagree that it is a problem for the game not to explicitly point out "hey this is wrong". Why can't it be up to the player to draw their own conclusions about what's happening in that world?

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WanLaghima

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Is "fan service" code for playing into a ridiculous sexual impulse? I thought fan service meant ... I don't know, bringing Snake in to SSBM, or .... letting you get all the previous tunics in Breath of the Wild, letting you change your character after you beat an Uncharted game to "henchman 3".
Giving female characters revealing clothing and half a dimension in personality is not fan service ... unless the service is to fulfill some kind of fantasy (that tends to be paedophilic).
Also ... as someone else who lives in Japan, I can agree, this type of thing is not as common as Kotaku and every photo you see of Akihabara portrays. People seriously look down on it. Its not cool.

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#149  Edited By Bonbonetti

To my knowledge most Japanese developers see Japan as their primary market, in which the vast majority of gamers are teenage boys. So that's who many of them make their games for, not mature Westerners aged 30+. For me these specific types of JRPG draw their inspirations from Anime and Manga, that's where it originates from I'd say. So to me it's part of a much wider cultural envelope.

And I'm not convinced that all Japanese necessarily see these costumes as "slutty porn outfits", but more as "hero outfits" or just "sexy outfits", in much the same way we perceive Scarlett Johansson wearing bodysuits in Marvel movies or Jaina in StarCraft.

Personally, I tend to avoid these specific JRPGs because they feel so obviously designed with teenagers in mind, so much so that I feel uncomfortable playing them. I'm so clearly the wrong demographic.

Western games are not that innocent when it comes to nudity and fan-service. You only have to look at Mass Effect, the Witcher 3, and GTA 5. To name but a few. We tend to notice nudity and "sexyness" in Japanese games more than we do in Western ones, since we've conditioned ourselves to not notice the amount of nudity in games like World of Warcraft, Starcraft, Overwatch and many others. It looks so familiar we pay little to no attention to it. Every JRPG I've personally played in my life have not been overly sexy or deliberate when it come to nudity, certainly not more than your average Western game.

The West has a very open attitude towards sexyness and nudity when it comes to movies, tv-shows and music. Just look at Game of Thrones and your latest trending female pop artists. So I always feel defensive when this topic comes up. 'Yes' there can be plenty of "flesh" in Japanese video games, but compared to what you see very openly in the West it's not a shock to me.

Whether it's morally wrong for a developer to target a specific group of gamers (i.e. teenage boys) in this way I don't know. If it is, then I have to condemn much of our entertainment media in the West as well, and that's a tiresome and pointless discussion involving free markets, politics and culture. If you like what you see you buy it, otherwise you buy something else that's more to your liking. That's a more more practical philosophy.

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acharlie1377

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#150  Edited By acharlie1377

@wanlaghima: I think in the context of anime, 'fan service' is more about busty, skimpily dressed women... If you consider fan service in general as catering specifically to hardcore fans of the genre, and think of the stereotypical anime fan as a horny teenager "otaku", it makes more sense to call it fan service. Not to say the majority of anime/JRPG fans are into that, of course, it's mostly catering to the stereotypes/lowest common denominator.