So this has been bugging me/A plea to Brad and Patrick

Anyone see the Painkiller HD Quick Look? *sigh*

Look, I love the GB crew. But Patrick and Brad get on my nerves sometimes. Brad... he just needs to familiarize himself with games a WHOLE lot more before leading a Quick Look on them. Patrick; he's a fine journalist. A lot of the features he does for the site are eye opening and compelling. But he's a terrible REVIEWER. Whatever seems to be the general opinion of a game on the internet is his opinion, automatically. All the time. He does for Sonic games. And he did it for Painkiller. It's obviously not coming from personal experience - why must it be restated as fact?

What I'm talking about, specifically, is his claim that Painkiller and Serious Sam are basically modern day Doom.

@vinsanityv22 said:

the "We're just a linear theme park attraction"-kind of crap from Call of Battlefield: Warfighter.

Mainly because shooters from the 90s largely consisted of wondering just where the hell you were or where you were supposed to go.

Telling Brad to play more Doom? Really?

The guys play an insane amount of games at all times, asking them to check out more is as pointless as creating a thread to complain about staff members.

Painkiller is a modern version of Doom, hate to break it to you bud. I guess if Painkiller had color coded key cards you'd like it more? Or if you automatically aimed everything?

Oh, yeah. All of those "effective environments" from Doom are truly its best selling point.

I'm sorry but Doom had some really bullshit level design in the later chapters. Running around for 40 minutes because you didn't see the switch you needed to flip because it looks like every other wall texture in the room isn't clever its just infuriating and stupid. If anything I think people give Doom a bit too much credit at times. Its a fun game and there are parts of it I enjoy but the level design is absolutely NOT one of them.

please GB crew. never become gaming snobs like this guy.

"Journalist"

I mean, I love Doom - a lot - but if you think it's anything more than a gigantic monster closet then you are kind of delusional. The key cards are just an excuse for 'exploration' and do nothing more than lengthen annoying sections of both games and give you an illusion of something bigger than is actually there. They had an effective sense of pace because, from what I recall, those games were going about 100 mph and the only thing stopping you from getting from point A to B was an assload of demons.

Sounds like Painkiller to me.

EDIT: Oh, and I did forget those awesome 'look for the switch' sections. Those were fucking mind-bogglingly effective at maintaining the breakneck speed. Truly modern game design.

@vinsanityv22: Here's the thing: the guys at People Can Fly...while developing Painkiller...specifically mentioned themselves as being heavily inspired by Doom. The same goes for the guys at Croteam when they were working on the original Serious Sam games. Eventually, the mentality of "swarm FPS games" was created about Painkiller and Serious Sam and thus became its own sub-genre.

Therefore, when someone says "they are modern day Doom", I can say "well, technically, they are a bit different than Doom...but they are kind of right".

@vinsanityv22 said:

Shooters today... their level designs are dogshit. Not just this "lock you in an arena until you kill x swarms of bad guys" stuff from Painkiller and Serious Sam

Umm, have you even played doom yourself? Doom is full of rooms where you have to fight a lot of enemies until you can progress further. And they say that painkiller is the modern day doom because of similar setting and mindless enemies with stupid AI.

I do the same thing Patrick does, but A) I recognize it, and B) I don't sit in on Quick Looks where I add little aside from regurgitating general Internet consensus on a game or series. I don't find Patrick annoying like the haters, but it doesn't feel like he's bringing the wealth of knowledge or any personal opinions to a QL like the other staff members; unless he has some unique factoid he picked up while researching a story, he basically just gives opinions I'm already familiar with from spending a few hours reading gaming sites each day. Maybe it's an age thing, since he's been in the business like a decade less than everyone else. Still, I agree that he seems content to just reiterate consensus, instead of giving his own impressions or anecdotes related to the game/series. Also, it continues to be ridiculous that he barely mentions any game other than Deus Ex in all of the stuff he has written about Mark of the Ninja and Dishonored; I get it, that's a game he has actually played, but for the love of god, if you're going to cover those 2 games so in-depth, find a weekend to rip through a Thief game or two.

@vinsanityv22 said:

Anyone see the Painkiller HD Quick Look? *sigh*

Look, I love the GB crew. But Patrick and Brad get on my nerves sometimes. Brad... he just needs to familiarize himself with games a WHOLE lot more before leading a Quick Look on them. Patrick; he's a fine journalist. A lot of the features he does for the site are eye opening and compelling. But he's a terrible REVIEWER. Whatever seems to be the general opinion of a game on the internet is his opinion, automatically. All the time. He does for Sonic games. And he did it for Painkiller. It's obviously not coming from personal experience - why must it be restated as fact?

What I'm talking about, specifically, is his claim that Painkiller and Serious Sam are basically modern day Doom.

I wish, desperately, that you guys would go back and actually play Doom. Or one of the mods for it (might I suggest Brutal Doom?).

I know it's the cliche, lazy internet thing to do, but comparing Painkiller and Serious Sam to Doom is just insulting Doom. They're completely mindless games; the Dynasty Warriors of shooters. I'm not saying they're not fun - I'm just saying, Doom did a lot more. And you guys should give credit to it instead of regurgitating the internet opinion that these new, dumb shooters are just like Doom.

I mean c'mon. Doom may have been "Go from point A to point B", but it didn't mindlessly throw enemies at you. It was as much about exploring Phobos as it was about battling the demons of Hell. Those levels were not linear, they weren't mere arenas to trap the player in. They had a really effective sense of place. They were loaded with secrets. You weren't just blazing through levels; you were looking for everything. And those environments were so effective, I bet you STILL know which wall hides the Chainsaw is in the first couple of levels.

Shooters today... their level designs are dogshit. Not just this "lock you in an arena until you kill x swarms of bad guys" stuff from Painkiller and Serious Sam, but also the "We're just a linear theme park attraction"-kind of crap from Call of Battlefield: Warfighter. Games from the 90's were FAR more ambitious; they really tried to establish these locales as places. There were way less invisible walls; there were tons of corridors and room and the way they were connected MADE SENSE. Make fun of color coded key cards all you want, but compare those levels to MOH: Warfighter and all of sudden, key cards look pretty awesome. It's astounding how backwards shooter design has gone.

Seriously, Patrick, Brad - I'm BEGGING you. Go back and play some older shooters. They're better than most modern shooters. They deserve more credit from you. Do another couple Quick Look throwbacks, like you did for Deus Ex.

Somebody needs a hobby...

@Sooty said:

"Journalist"

I spelled Journalist right... yeah. I did.

@jakob187 said:

@vinsanityv22: Here's the thing: the guys at People Can Fly...while developing Painkiller...specifically mentioned themselves as being heavily inspired by Doom. The same goes for the guys at Croteam when they were working on the original Serious Sam games. Eventually, the mentality of "swarm FPS games" was created about Painkiller and Serious Sam and thus became its own sub-genre.

Therefore, when someone says "they are modern day Doom", I can say "well, technically, they are a bit different than Doom...but they are kind of right".

Okay, being inspired by it is one thing. But the actual design of the game is super different. That's what I'm pointing out. Also, it's been awhile since People Can Fly developed a Painkiller title. Who knows what these new guys aspire to recreate?

@SirOptimusPrime said:

I mean, I love Doom - a lot - but if you think it's anything more than a gigantic monster closet than you are kind of delusional. The key cards are just an excuse for 'exploration' and do nothing more than lengthen annoying sections of both games and give you an illusion of something bigger than is actually there. They had an effective sense of pace because, from what I recall, those games were going about 100 mph and the only thing stopping you from getting from point A to B was an assload of demons.

Sounds like Painkiller to me.

I'm not saying Doom was the most thoughtful game that was ever made; I'm just saying there's a whole lot more to it than JUST blasting waves of repetitive enemies in thinly veiled arenas. Painkiller is more... I dunno, a 3D Smash TV. There's no thought in the level designs. Seriously, people don't recognize good level design anymore. Developers don't even attempt it. It's vexing.

@leafhouse said:

Telling Brad to play more Doom? Really?

The guys play an insane amount of games at all times, asking them to check out more is as pointless as creating a thread to complain about staff members.

That is their job; to play games. I don't see why it's too much to ask them to maybe take some minutes and gain some perspective, and re-play some older games. They do it anyway; like I mentioned, they have done Quick Look throwbacks in the past. It's not outrageous.

@doobie said:

please GB crew. never become gaming snobs like this guy.

I really don't think this is snobbish. But whatever; "gaming snob" beats "mainstream gamers" any day of the week.

Some of the rest of you; c'mon! Are you seriously telling me you prefer uber-linear, freedom-less, "loaded with invisible walls", move-from-set-piece-to-set-piece level designs to levels that give you freedom? There's nothing confusing about Doom's level designs. Or Quake. Or Unreal. Maybe if I were talking about... I dunno, Jedi Knight or something - THAT was confusing. But still, I'd take confusing and open over very clear and very linear. At least then, it's up to ME to keep the game going. Not just being pushed along the developer's boring idea of a thrill ride. Modern games don't even care if you do anything; they have AI characters who will complete 99% of the actions for you, just to move you along to the same uninspired set pieces you've seen a thousand times before. That's backwards. I'm sorry. I don't care what you say, whether you like Doom or not. Doom was actually a game. A lot of current stuff is too much on autopilot.

Painkiller is very similar to the original Doom. And I am pretty sure that Brad has been playing Doom 2 this whole year so his memory is pretty fresh. They do great work!

The whole post could be summarised as follows:

"Imma let you finish, but Doom is the greatest FPS of all time."

@vinsanityv22 said:

I wish, desperately, that you guys would go back and actually play Doom.

BAHAHAHAHAHA

The GB staff, apart from maybe Jeff, know classic shooters way, way, way better than the modern ones. And in Jeff's case, it's because he probably knows an equal and excessive amount about both. You're evangelizing to the pastors, and it's ridiculous, annoying, and falling on deaf ears.

No, really, I'm sick of this kind of whining getting its own thread. Put it in the comments of the video in question and leave it the fuck alone.

They just mean there's a lot of guys to shoot in these games. Simple, effective comparison. Less about headshots, more about fast action and burning though ammo.

It's used as a shorthand for a specific style of FPS design. Conceptually, these games are the successors to the Doom legacy where Halo/CoD/Killzone took it into different directions.

@vinsanityv22: Practically no one in the industry has more respect for Doom than Brad Shoemaker.

Are people seriously still making these threads...?

Come on guys

TIME IS A TRAIN, MAKES THE FUTURE THE PAST, LEAVES YOU STANDING IN THE STATION

WITH YOUR FACE PRESSED UP AGAINST THE GLASS

Video games!

amirite?

People take this stuff way too seriously.

@EuanDewar said:

TIME IS A TRAIN, MAKES THE FUTURE THE PAST, LEAVES YOU STANDING IN THE STATION

WITH YOUR FACE PRESSED UP AGAINST THE GLASS

good song, but The Fly is better

bout all of that band i can really stand tbh

@Video_Game_King said:

@vinsanityv22 said:

the "We're just a linear theme park attraction"-kind of crap from Call of Battlefield: Warfighter.

Mainly because shooters from the 90s largely consisted of wondering just where the hell you were or where you were supposed to go.

Ahhh...the good times.

@ripelivejam said:

@EuanDewar said:

TIME IS A TRAIN, MAKES THE FUTURE THE PAST, LEAVES YOU STANDING IN THE STATION

WITH YOUR FACE PRESSED UP AGAINST THE GLASS

good song, but The Fly is better

bout all of that band i can really stand tbh

This version is reallll good

So, thoughts:

• Brad has played so much Doom he could very easily never touch it again and still be knowledgeable about it.
• Patrick doesn't have the range of experience that the others have, but that's something that comes after a crapload amount of time in the industry, and I'm pretty sure he's not claiming to be an expert.
• Don't like Patrick's reviews, or modern day shooters? Don't eat!
• They probably don't have the time for anything but reviews, QL's and GOTY stuff, so they definitely aren't having any more QLTB's soon.
• Threads like this go nowhere fast.

@mordukai said:

@Video_Game_King said:

@vinsanityv22 said:

the "We're just a linear theme park attraction"-kind of crap from Call of Battlefield: Warfighter.

Mainly because shooters from the 90s largely consisted of wondering just where the hell you were or where you were supposed to go.

Ahhh...the good times.

Is this sarcastic? My time on the Internet has fried my ability to detect such things.

Uhm, I think both Painkiller and Serious Sam are perfectly comparable to Doom.

Large amount of (unusual) guns? Check

Hordes of mindeless enemies? Check

No recharging health? Check

Run&Gun instead of Hide&Seek? Check

Works for me.

Okay, Doom has horrible leveldesign and boring keycard hunts but otherwise? I think the comparison is fine

While there is some truth to your points about Brad, what you're saying about Patrick and then the Dynasty Warriors comparison is pretty hypocritical. That said however, Patrick does say a lot of pretty stupid stuff pretty often in QLs.

Yo man Doom was all that? Never got into any id games besides Quake 2 and 3. 

Hey you know that guy who recently replayed doom 2 on one of its hardest difficulties? Yeah, make him play more doom, because I dont think he really gets it.

This guy is obviously fucking insane, because the amount of old shooters Brad has played, both on TNT and Breaking Brad, immediately excuses him from his stupid complaint.

However, I do agree that a lot of Patrick's opinions seem almost entirely based on Internet consensus and not at all on personal experience. He's been caught on that front numerous times on the Bombcast.

This guy is obviously fucking insane, because the amount of old shooters Brad has played, both on TNT and Breaking Brad, immediately excuses him from his stupid complaint.

However, I do agree that a lot of Patrick's opinions seem almost entirely based on Internet consensus and not at all on personal experience. He's been caught on that front numerous times on the Bombcast.

These open letter topics to staff members are never effective and often come off as immature. You have a gripe about how someone is doing their job, you send them a PM or an email; these really aren't meant for discussion.

@Peanut said:

This guy is obviously fucking insane, because the amount of old shooters Brad has played, both on TNT and Breaking Brad, immediately excuses him from his stupid complaint.

However, I do agree that a lot of Patrick's opinions seem almost entirely based on Internet consensus and not at all on personal experience. He's been caught on that front numerous times on the Bombcast.

This thought is so fucking mind-numbly stupid. So he has an opinion that is the same as the majority, so that must mean its not his. You have no proof but, yep, this totally makes sense and is in no way incredibly moronic.

Seriously, how fucking clueless are you? Good fucking lord. Telling Brad to play more Doom just shows how little attention you're paying,

@vinsanityv22 said:

Patrick; he's a fine journalist. A lot of the features he does for the site are eye opening and compelling. But he's a terrible REVIEWER. Whatever seems to be the general opinion of a game on the internet is his opinion, automatically. All the time. He does for Sonic games. And he did it for Painkiller. It's obviously not coming from personal experience - why must it be restated as fact?

Where the hell do you get this from? That's complete horseshit.

He's right. We totally can't trust Brad when it comes to things regarding Doom.

@Manhattan_Project: There are instances on the Bombcast where he has come out with an opinion, then admitted to never having played the game in question. There are instances where he's been vocal about something somewhere, then down the line has admitted to never having played the game he was vocal about.

I don't give a shit and it doesn't bother me, but I'm not the only one who has noticed this trait about Patrick and I'm not trying to make shit up to put the guy down. GBDF activate or whatever, though.

@Milkman said:

Seriously, how fucking clueless are you? Good fucking lord. Telling Brad to play more Doom just shows how little attention you're paying,

@vinsanityv22 said:

Patrick; he's a fine journalist. A lot of the features he does for the site are eye opening and compelling. But he's a terrible REVIEWER. Whatever seems to be the general opinion of a game on the internet is his opinion, automatically. All the time. He does for Sonic games. And he did it for Painkiller. It's obviously not coming from personal experience - why must it be restated as fact?

Where the hell do you get this from? That's complete horseshit.

I like you. You seem to have the same hate for bullshit "facts" based on nothing, as I do.

This thread is so dumb.

@ripelivejam said:

@EuanDewar said:

TIME IS A TRAIN, MAKES THE FUTURE THE PAST, LEAVES YOU STANDING IN THE STATION

WITH YOUR FACE PRESSED UP AGAINST THE GLASS

good song, but The Fly is better

bout all of that band i can really stand tbh

The Fly is a bloody good song, thanks for reminding me of it.

This was a good read. Don't know if I agree about everything but I think you're right about Doom.

@Peanut said:

@Manhattan_Project: There are instances on the Bombcast where he has come out with an opinion, then admitted to never having played the game in question. There are instances where he's been vocal about something somewhere, then down the line has admitted to never having played the game he was vocal about.

I don't give a shit and it doesn't bother me, but I'm not the only one who has noticed this trait about Patrick and I'm not trying to make shit up to put the guy down. GBDF activate or whatever, though.

Some examples would be nice. Or you could just continue with your "GB defense force accusations", thats fine too.

I had no idea people could be so defensive about Doom of all things.

@gizmo88 said:

@vinsanityv22 said:

Anyone see the Painkiller HD Quick Look? *sigh*

Look, I love the GB crew. But Patrick and Brad get on my nerves sometimes. Brad... he just needs to familiarize himself with games a WHOLE lot more before leading a Quick Look on them. Patrick; he's a fine journalist. A lot of the features he does for the site are eye opening and compelling. But he's a terrible REVIEWER. Whatever seems to be the general opinion of a game on the internet is his opinion, automatically. All the time. He does for Sonic games. And he did it for Painkiller. It's obviously not coming from personal experience - why must it be restated as fact?

What I'm talking about, specifically, is his claim that Painkiller and Serious Sam are basically modern day Doom.

I wish, desperately, that you guys would go back and actually play Doom. Or one of the mods for it (might I suggest Brutal Doom?).

I know it's the cliche, lazy internet thing to do, but comparing Painkiller and Serious Sam to Doom is just insulting Doom. They're completely mindless games; the Dynasty Warriors of shooters. I'm not saying they're not fun - I'm just saying, Doom did a lot more. And you guys should give credit to it instead of regurgitating the internet opinion that these new, dumb shooters are just like Doom.

I mean c'mon. Doom may have been "Go from point A to point B", but it didn't mindlessly throw enemies at you. It was as much about exploring Phobos as it was about battling the demons of Hell. Those levels were not linear, they weren't mere arenas to trap the player in. They had a really effective sense of place. They were loaded with secrets. You weren't just blazing through levels; you were looking for everything. And those environments were so effective, I bet you STILL know which wall hides the Chainsaw is in the first couple of levels.

Shooters today... their level designs are dogshit. Not just this "lock you in an arena until you kill x swarms of bad guys" stuff from Painkiller and Serious Sam, but also the "We're just a linear theme park attraction"-kind of crap from Call of Battlefield: Warfighter. Games from the 90's were FAR more ambitious; they really tried to establish these locales as places. There were way less invisible walls; there were tons of corridors and room and the way they were connected MADE SENSE. Make fun of color coded key cards all you want, but compare those levels to MOH: Warfighter and all of sudden, key cards look pretty awesome. It's astounding how backwards shooter design has gone.

Seriously, Patrick, Brad - I'm BEGGING you. Go back and play some older shooters. They're better than most modern shooters. They deserve more credit from you. Do another couple Quick Look throwbacks, like you did for Deus Ex.

Somebody needs a hobby...

Criticism of journalists like this always reminds me of people obsessing over actor performances. It is kind of funny that, to a group of a few thousand (or tens of thousands), Brad Shoemaker and Patrick Klepic might as well be Brad Pitt and Leonardo DiCaprio in terms of how they are regarded. E.g. They are omnipresent in their daily media consumption and there is a great amount of care taken in terms of all of the work they do and the perceived quality of this work.

Media personality types in general draw this sort of attention. Maybe George Broussard and a few random games journalists can open up a video game meta-topic website modeled after TMZ (paparazzi website). Throw in some reddit drama and just ride minor scandals a couple weeks at a time. But than, the real question would be, what actor is the equivalent of Jeff Gerstmann to video game journalism?

@Video_Game_King said:

@mordukai said:

@Video_Game_King said:

@vinsanityv22 said:

the "We're just a linear theme park attraction"-kind of crap from Call of Battlefield: Warfighter.

Mainly because shooters from the 90s largely consisted of wondering just where the hell you were or where you were supposed to go.

Ahhh...the good times.

Is this sarcastic? My time on the Internet has fried my ability to detect such things.

I meant it in the most serious way.

@Fredchuckdave said:

Painkiller is a modern version of Doom, hate to break it to you bud. I guess if Painkiller had color coded key cards you'd like it more? Or if you automatically aimed everything?

Painkiller has you go into arenas and kill dudes until you get to the next checkpoint. Doom's goal was to find the exit, killing enemies and finding keys along the way. Different experiences, different games.

To call Painkiller and Serious Sam successors of the classic FPS formula is just wrong. They're more like "enemy hell" shooters.