Social Issues and Giant Bomb: The Internet Is Serious Business (but It Doesn't Have to Be)

@rorie: That's not what I meant in the least. I was just countering your statement that looking at post counts is some sort of indication of veterancy. Obviously everyone's voice is welcome.

@jarmahead: If you can't respond to a PM, getting in touch with the mods via giantbombmods at gmail.com is probably best.

@wsgexe: Then I guess I'm still a little confused about your earlier analogy about being new to a community and being shunned from it until you came around to the views of the veteran posters. I really don't know what you meant by it in relation to this discussion.

Not really. Discussing events like GaymerX on these forums is just as valid to video games and the industry as discussing gay relationships in Mass Effect.

I don't want people to shut up. I want people to move their conversations to more appropriate places, and leave that shit at the door when they come into the gaming discussions. It's like, I'd okay with debates at home with my family in concept. But at dinner, lets just eat dinner and enjoy that! And if we're just watching a movie and enjoying it, lets just do that! But if we want to set some time aside to talk about how something in the movie maybe hit a nerve with us, lets do that as such: separate from the experience so as not to drag that down with a discussion of a relatively diminutive issue that could and likely would become heated or at the very least engage us to the point of distracting from the point of sitting down to enjoy a movie.

Is that a better way to describe it? I'm using a lot of metaphors.

I see what you're saying and I think I stated above that we need to do better as moderators about keeping threads from veering into political or social areas if they weren't intentionally started as such. We'll look into what we can do there.

What do you consider a more appropriate place to discuss topics related to video games?

certainly and thats why i was kinda iffy writing what I did as i wasn't sure how to articulate it properly. its a complicated issue for sure with no simple answer.

there has been some good opinions on both sides and i think specific situations certainly have the ability to be discussion back and forth but as a whole i think there cant be denying there is an issue with how certain groups are treated in gaming.

its not the people that are saying "heres why i disagree with this particular situation is a gender issue" its the people saying "here why i think there isn't a gender issue at all"

@rorie: This social focus on games is a recent development. Can we agree on that? There exists an old guard, surely we can agree on that. It's within the realm of reason for the old guard to prefer its established gameplay-focused coverage.

And it's within the realm of reason for the old guard to be unwelcoming of change. It is after all an enthusiast community, not a town hall. No one is justified to insist upon change or reform. That is all I was saying. Perhaps my analogy was overly complex.

Sure. As long as it's seperate from the discussion on gay relationships in Mass Effect. For example. Lets say I start a thread about how hot I think Garrus is. I mean, I don't, because of the whole "Hey look guys I'm pretty much made of rock, or something" but apparently that's a thing. So we talk about how hot Garrus is and then maybe comments are made about how maybe one part of it could have been executed better. But then some guy comes in and starts complaining about how Bioware doesn't respect gays because Garrus isn't inherently gay, and therefore Bioware doesn't have the balls to make a gay character, just to allow players to live out an alternate fantasy to the canon version of the character. That's sort of related, but not really in line with the point of the thread. But then the guy starts talking about how the bread industry did something similar. And then they start bringing other dev studios in on how this dev did this and that dev did that. Pretty soon, I don't get to talk about Garrus being a hottie anymore, because some goofball just took over my thread and started talking about a conspiracy to make fluffernutters less gay. And some of his goofball friends show up and just totally derail it. The focus switches from the actual games to the social issue. And that, as the guy talking about games, kind of craps on my discussion of the game. At least, in my opinion it does.

If that guy wants to start a separate thread to discuss those wider reaching things, that's all cool by me. I like equality, I like social norms being challenged. But I feel like you have to be prepared to sift through a lot of toxic or useless stuff on a lot of those topics. And so when they aren't seperated, you have to sift through them even when you're looking for something totally unrelated. When they could just be separated apart in such a way that you can more easily find intellectual conversations or dumb conversations about who is the hottest hunk in Mass Effect (It's actually the Salarian[sp?]. I know, shocker!) is.

And yeah, I realize I'm saying "separate but equal" basically, but here it applies. I think/hope.

@wsgexe: A lot of people in this thread have been active on Giant Bomb since it started and take no issue with discussions of social issues occurring where they're appropriate. No matter how you try to reframe your original metaphor, I don't think it's an accurate representation of the reality of things here.

@wsgexe: You'd have to define what you mean by "recent." I know that frontpage articles touching on these issues have been posted at least since I've been officially employed here, and I know those articles were around well before that time, as well. So far as I know, social and political discussions on the board have never been considered off-topic or forbidden.

And, as far as the "old guard" goes, who gets to speak for them? I see someone with an account registered in 2008 posting in this thread arguing that these issues should be discussed.

Good luck on that one. You guys already do a lot, so I hope I don't come off as thinking you guys need to do better or complaining about moderation too much. Not to say I don't appreciate the motion to kind of rethink things. I just can't imagine how hard it is to corral such passionate discourse.

I'm hoping we can encourage users to seek out the appropriate place for discussions so that it doesn't just fall on moderators to do all the heavy lifting.

Giant Bomb is not just about video games. It's more about the people and culture that surround this hobby. That includes talking about California Extreme, Females in AssCreed, Dumb Marketing, Racial Representation, Cosplay, Retro Game Collections, LGBT Representation, getting developers drunk, anti-gaming laws, company layoffs, Iwata's surgery, Dave Lang, personal stories of game makers and the people who play games. Social issues will always be tied to that aspect of it.

We talk about so many things that don't deal with the actual games themselves and social issues are a natural part of that. Do we want to talk about trailers, game play videos, and what publishers want to sell us or do we want to talk about culture/presonalities (which naturally includes social issues) involved in our hobby. I understand that certain issues stir up people up on both sides but I believe it is necessary and natural to talk about these things

@herbiebug: There's already a PM thread about that moderation that you can refer to if you'd like to discuss it with the mods. And we've already quoted the forum rules section regarding publicly commenting on moderation actions to you.

The objection is less about the discussion of social issues and more about the agenda that comes with that discussion. Two sides taking entrenched positions isn't a discussion. And the introduction of a men's rights activist is going to be met with the same suspicion of an entrenched position as a guest on the podcast who uses terms like "cis gendered male." Which is widely regarded as a slur.

Agendas aren't healthy and result only in extremist communities like tumblr and 4chan, who are more alike than different in their degree of polarization.

exactly. some of the best threads here have been about no video game stuff sometimes.

either way i feel like though the issues discussed may not only relate to video games i think talk about the video game community and video game culture is just as much related to games as playing them.

I 100% agree. Well said.

ps fuck Dave Lang.

i'd like to comment before this thread is closed. I have OCD and i obsess about many things; I first came to this site because it was super funny, the first video i watched was the "New Super Mario bros quicklook," and the staff were super knowledgeable about video games and watched the Deadly Premonition endurance run it was a really really nice distraction from obsessive worrying about things going on in the world and things going on or not going on in my life. I was super depressed, and i didn't go outside at all, besides going to the job i eventually had. Watching the videos and having this distraction really really helped me, helped me relax, something i found extremely difficult to do, besides playing video games, but some days i was just too down to even play those.

Right now i'm doing pretty ok, i'm a 31 year old dude, and i wanted my life to mean something more, I think many people in their 30s start thinking about this. So instead of waxing poetic on the internet in some stupid discussion about nothing that didn't help anything. I went out and i did something about it I started volunteering at habitat for humanity, I became really involved in my parishes youth group, then young adult group, then went on to more social issues and started volunteering with a Social Justice group, I helped set up an event on Human Trafficking, where we had a victim speak about what it was like. I was the go-to guy on Human Trafficking information, I even went to a Civil Rights conference about it in 2012. I'm still in this group, and when i want to go change the world, i go to that. I also started volunteering at a homeless shelter, which i later got a job at....

my point is, this site is a site about video games, and sometimes when people feel like they need to do something with their lives to help society there are places out there where they can do this effectively, and with the right audience. This site however is not the place (depends on what social issue), I think people on here are mad because some staff and some guests are using their position to talk about social issues, on a platform (this website) that is more suited to bullshitting about video games, and the industry.

I think social issues are something really good to get involved with, this site however, is not the right platform; but there are platforms available, and no one will hold it against you.

that said, I applaud @patrickklepek for going out there so young, and trying to do something. Just hopes he keeps it a safe distance from the site, depending on the audience. Or maybe when having a social justice article related to video games title it with something that has a forward saying it may be controversial, so that people looking for funny bullshit about video games avoid it.

@wsgexe: If that's the case, then we'll deal with those issues as a moderation staff. If you assume that a discussion, of any subject, will automatically lead to the worst behavior possible on the part of the people discussing it, then we might as well not have forums at all.

It's odd, but I sort of feel like Giant Bomb was more inclusive before, when it was dumb forums about hamburgers and concept pages about active reloading, then it is now, when people are regularly arguing about whether it's inclusive.

It just felt more implicitly welcoming to everyone; more... respectful? But like, respectful via irreverence? It's hard to say. (It was also a much smaller place back then.)

Which isn't to say these discussions are unwarranted-- but one thing is clear: I don't see too many people being convinced by all the arguments. The site's beginning to feel like a proxy war, at times.

...Maybe it's just been a hard month.

Guys, just a heads up: I have gotten nothing done all day except F5ing this thread, and I have plenty of work to do. I'm going to have to lock it soon, as I prefer to be around when discussions like this are going on. So feel free to get your points in in the next 15 minutes or so.

@wsgexe: You mentioned agendas, what do you think the agenda of the LGBT community is (at least in regards to internet comments)?

Also I think this "Both sides do it, so they're equally bad!" argument isn't great. The degree to which each group responds, the venues they choose to do so, the inherent advantages/disadvantages each group is subject to, etc. mean they are not equivalent at all. It's disingenuous to paint them as the same.

this is all super duper silly to be over the 5 mins of the bombcast where they said "we went to a con and it was good and cool" but chalk it up to the internet to blow something way out of proportion and call for the end times

Does anyone else find it sad that this site has become so toxic that the mods have to lock down threads if they aren't around to babysit it?

I don't think they do. I think they are being overly cautious, which I understand.

I think video games are great, but until candy crush and farmville stop making millions and millions I think people are a little jaded on how much they can "Change the world" or help people with different skin colors feel good. I actually am confused most of the time about what the issue is that people are getting so upset about. Looking at the present and seeing how there is more diversity in gaming is awesome, and as tools become easier and the barrier to entry gets lower and allows more people from everywhere to participate, that diversity will only grow. People flipping out in the comments on a video or a podcast on the internet is literally doing nothing, these armchair activist annoy the hell out of me. If anyone reading this wants to help more women and minorities get into coding or game development, donate to organisations that do that or start one yourself. I've noticed that in all parts of social and political issues, the loudest and crankiest are most likely the ones doing nothing and not participating anyway, the ones working to fix a problem usually don't have the time or care to write dumb posts on a podcast comment thread. If anyone is around NY state, check out She++, a sweet organisation that my college does some stuff with that helps women get into computer science fields. Also that name makes me chuckle every time.

@joshylee: I wouldn't say that the issue is necessarily toxicity (there've been relatively few deletions or moderations in this thread), but honestly, we're 200+ posts in and I feel like most of the major arguments on the matter have probably been made by this point; if anyone has a further concern about the community they can feel free to PM me. I'm not so worried about things going awry as I am about having a staff member here to answer and respond to questions. I don't intend to toot my own horn or anything, but as these discussions are about very vital parts of the site, I think it's good to let people know that staff is listening. I know that locking threads isn't a super popular activity, but I spoke about it a bit here.

@ohnoaghost: Neither side is after any material end goal. That's what makes it an ideological conflict. And no one is obligated to give out a handicap because one side claims the other is privileged.

See you on the next thread.

These discussions lead to more people being aware that, hey maybe Giant Bomb isn't actually safe for *everyone* to enjoy? Maybe there are some people that aren't comfortable being around the forums/comments, but no let's keep discussing how "your" fun is being ruined. Okay, sure. Good. Great.

If we start treating the gaming community with more respect than maybe they'll be more respectful.

attempting to get the middle school version of myself who used to post on the gamespot boards to be respectful is a fool's errand

my opinion (that no one asked for) is that the site is too big to have a nice community

I understand it can be a hurtful term depending on the tone with which it's used, but really, "cisgender" is just the linguistic counterpart to "transgender."

Buddy, have you got the wrong website.

I think the issue is pretending that a few loud, obnoxious voices represent a community of thousands of people. But that is the problem in many discussions. The loud fringes drown out the sensible, moderate middle.

but i think the big question is what is being done to change it here? I mean that in the most sincere, concerned way. are we just gonna have to lock any bombcast thread where they have a women guest? are we gonna have the same threads come up where people try to say "people need to stop complaining and get back to having fun?"

Don't take that last sentence the wrong way i think your doing an amazing job here and the level of involvement you have is more than i have seen any staff member of a forum really anywhere. But i do think the questions need to be asked or we are just gonna keep having history repeat itself over and over until its too late. And of course i know you are already know you are probably already asking these questions.

I think this community is actually super great and nice.

there's a bombcast comments page that i would bring up as counterevidence to this idea!

There are countless threads that I would counter your counter-evidence with!

true but i think tuesdays point is pretty valid. especially if you see that a lot of really terrible comments has been posted in some of these threads the last few weeks. and a lot of those comments are from users who have thousands of posts, meaning thats not the only place they post.

If there are "really terrible" comments, please flag them or otherwise bring them to the attention of the mods. We rely on flagging to know when things are going off-course. And, although it doesn't really need to be said, a high posting count is not going to prevent us from moderating someone.

that certainly wasnt my intention to imply that you wouldnt. my point was to simply dispell the idea some have that only a certain group of new users are part of the discussions or making such comments. its from both sides of the spectrum.

@julius: This post, particularly where it goes toward the end, fails to acknowledge that other Giant Bomb users might not share your same privileges. I know people hate that word, but the assumption that you can go on with your life comfortably, without engaging with "social issues," is a life of extraordinary privilege. Furthermore, social issues are ingrained into games as games are the products of social circumstances. The big companies that produce AAA games and lay-off their entire staff a week after the game ships would like to sweep "social issues" under the rug. It's not just issues of representation, but understanding and discussing the politics that go into creating games and the political expressions of those games is incredibly important to having informed discussions about them. I think if you asked any Giant Bomb editor about this, they'd tell you that they want those discussions happening on its site. Lastly I want to share this Errant Signal video about this issue because I think it hits the nail on the head.

I think there are a lot more really great, empathic, and accepting comments here. I would like to, for one second, acknowledge that people can be pretty freaking great on this website and in these forums. We always kill it during charity gaming events, people offer great advice to people that make threads about having a hard time, users can actually admit they're wrong here when they are. It's a great community.

@rorie All that I have left to say is thanks for listening and thanks for participating in this discussion. I really hope I added something to the community with this thread and I hope to do so more in the future, as despite being a hardcore fan since Arrow Pointing Down, I haven't made many posts. With regards to the issue at hand, you seem to be the same page when it comes to separating out discussions that are problematic, off-topic, or unnecessary, and I hope that this will lead to a more friendly atmosphere in the future.

Thanks to everyone for talking this out with me.

EDIT: Oh man, I got a Vinny response! Things worked out better than expected! Thank you for reading my post.

We'll continue following our interests. As we grow, both in scale and as people, our interets diversify. We are still a very small site. We are still trying to forge our path. We are still very interested in growing. I can't think of a better place to fight for honesty, integrity, and creative freedom than Giant Bomb. To see people try and burn it down because they see it as exclusionary is a real shame. We are fighting, and it may not look like it, but we're punching above our weight. It has taken us over a year to account for a fallen team member. That was a fight. It took me three years alone to try and replace the production personnel that didn't come with us during the move. That was a fight. We have had to work so hard to hold on as this industry shifts and moves. We do not have a strong foundation and we have only gotten this far by grasping hands with each other and the community.

I have seen some people argue or float that we are currently pandering. This site has been built on a belief, for better or worse, of pursuing areas that we find interesting. We have been lucky to connect with an audience that shares those interests and they have come along with us. We do not discriminate. We seek out the most interesting, talented, and entertaining people in the industry. We will never dismiss them because they do not fit your idea of casting. We will also never bring someone on because of that reason. We've found the best way to uncover greatness is to respect and listen to the person. Period.

Giant Bomb will continue to talk with and connect with people from all around the community. We've always been a site not just about video games, but about culture and people. We'll continue, and we encourage others, to discuss topics we all find relevant. Again, as we grow we hope those interests expand and grow with us. As we welcome new people, new topics, and new opportunities we're going to do what we have always done and give it our best. And, as always, cruelty will never be tolerated. We are here to have a good time and maybe learn a thing or two. You never know where that is going to come from unless you explore every opportunity.

Also, don't be a jerk!

Vinny

and thats why i care about this community and website to still have these discussions here but that stuff you talked about is getting overshadowed by hatespeech. a lot of long time users have really shown their true colours over the last couple weeks and i think its really hurt the community as a whole in terms of reputation.

@vinny:

If that bombcast comments section is your evidence, then this is a pretty great community.

I read all of those comments and the whole thing was basically one poster saying they they had just heard the word "cisgender" used on the bombcast unironically and then probably 10-20 other posters (including myself) reacting to that and saying they were going to skip listening to this bombcast if political/social stuff were a big focus.(which, after listening to it, it wasn't that big of a focus and I regret my comment) I didn't see any personal attacks at all on the woman that was on the bombcast. Just people saying either they don't like guests on the bombcast, or that they don't want to hear about political/social issues on it.

I've seen a bunch of people saying, "wow if they locked the comments it must have been terrible!" eh, not really. They just seem to be kind of cautious now about allowing some of these discussions in other areas of the comments.

@vinny said:

I really appreciate you chiming in and agree with 99% of what you're saying, but I don't think the above describes most the criticism I've seen. I can't speak for everyone, but any issues I've raised comes from wanting the site to grow and get even better. I know it can't be easy for you guys to be on the receiving end of it, but I hope you're able to take the constructive stuff to heart.