The U.S. awards an athlete's visa to a pro gamer!

Avatar image for austinslin
austinslin

6

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Edited By austinslin

Cool Wired article on the redefining of what it means to be (a) global, (b) an athlete and (c) a global athlete.

Based on the description inside the body of the US P-1A Visa (below) who knows what this means for the further future convergence of what it means to be a contemporary, international athlete.

"You must be coming to the United States to participate in individual event, competition or performance in which you are internationally recognized with a high level of achievement; evidenced by a degree of skill and recognition substantially above that ordinarily encountered so that the achievement is renowned, leading or well known in more than one country."

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-12/16/starcraft-2-visa

Avatar image for mercutio123
mercutio123

570

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#1  Edited By mercutio123

Sure that would fit into that description. However. You. Have. Got. To. Be. Fucking. Kidding. Me.

This is all too depressing.

Avatar image for thehbk
TheHBK

5674

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 3

User Lists: 6

This. Really, just this.

Loading Video...

Avatar image for fredchuckdave
Fredchuckdave

10824

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 2

Hilarity ensues.

Avatar image for wolfgame
Wolfgame

1168

Forum Posts

252

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#4  Edited By Wolfgame

Imagine being a real athlete applying for one of these Visas and getting denied then reading this article...

Avatar image for flasaltine
flasaltine

2547

Forum Posts

739

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Why are people here so against esports? There are people out there making a living off it. It is a legitimate business. Millions of people watch LoL and Dota 2 and Starcraft and whatever. Are people trying to seem cooler when they hate on esports? To think they are above it? To show others that they are not that nerdy?

Avatar image for wolfgame
Wolfgame

1168

Forum Posts

252

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#6  Edited By Wolfgame

@flacracker: I was just being facetious, you are reading into this way too much. I don't have a problem with people calling esports a thing, but the level of sacrifice physical athletes have to make versus gamers is not even close to comparable. I am not even a sports person and I am willing to admit that.

Avatar image for oldirtybearon
Oldirtybearon

5626

Forum Posts

86

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

@flacracker said:

Why are people here so against esports? There are people out there making a living off it. It is a legitimate business. Millions of people watch LoL and Dota 2 and Starcraft and whatever. Are people trying to seem cooler when they hate on esports? To think they are above it? To show others that they are not that nerdy?

I think the terminology is what bothers people. To call it "esports" is to imply there is athleticism involved. Sure it takes skill to micro-manage and multitask to a high level in Starcraft but to say that's comparable to highly skilled basketball player... it's ostensibly belittling the talent of real athletes.

Avatar image for sooty
Sooty

8193

Forum Posts

306

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 3

I can understand this to a degree for StarCraft and games like Street Fighter, maybe even Dota, but not League of Legends. That game is nowhere near deep enough to be in awe of someone's ability on it.

Avatar image for l44
L44

638

Forum Posts

33

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 7

The first guy to get a visa, Danny Le, is the coolest guy ever, Hakuna Chapanya.

Avatar image for jonny_anonymous
Jonny_Anonymous

3694

Forum Posts

6

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@wolfgame:

@flacracker said:

Why are people here so against esports? There are people out there making a living off it. It is a legitimate business. Millions of people watch LoL and Dota 2 and Starcraft and whatever. Are people trying to seem cooler when they hate on esports? To think they are above it? To show others that they are not that nerdy?

I think the terminology is what bothers people. To call it "esports" is to imply there is athleticism involved. Sure it takes skill to micro-manage and multitask to a high level in Starcraft but to say that's comparable to highly skilled basketball player... it's ostensibly belittling the talent of real athletes.

I see absolutely no problem with this considering darts and chess players get the same.

Avatar image for mercutio123
mercutio123

570

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@flacracker: I don't mind esports as a term. It's just that someone can be now classed as an athlete by playing video games. Sure it takes skill. But an athlete excels in physically stressing activities. Or something like that.

Avatar image for bollard
Bollard

8298

Forum Posts

118

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 3

User Lists: 12

@austinslin: Progress!

Also, everyone here shitting on this is a douchebag.

@flacracker said:

Why are people here so against esports? There are people out there making a living off it. It is a legitimate business. Millions of people watch LoL and Dota 2 and Starcraft and whatever. Are people trying to seem cooler when they hate on esports? To think they are above it? To show others that they are not that nerdy?

I think the terminology is what bothers people. To call it "esports" is to imply there is athleticism involved. Sure it takes skill to micro-manage and multitask to a high level in Starcraft but to say that's comparable to highly skilled basketball player... it's ostensibly belittling the talent of real athletes.

The only one "obstensibly" belittling people here is you (I can use big words incorrectly too). Nothing about eSports has shit to do with real sports. eSports is its name, and it's growing, so get used to it. I think a highly skilled progamer is equally entitled to being recognised as a basketball player. Heck, there are hundreds of sports I literally couldn't give a fuck about but I at least respect the people who are good at them for showing dedication and talent in their discipline. eSports should be no different.

Avatar image for i_stay_puft
I_Stay_Puft

5581

Forum Posts

1879

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 5

#13  Edited By I_Stay_Puft

Are e-sport participants athletes?

Answer: no.

My honest opinion and yes I don't think race car drivers are athletes either.

Avatar image for oldirtybearon
Oldirtybearon

5626

Forum Posts

86

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

@austinslin: Progress!

Also, everyone here shitting on this is a douchebag.

@oldirtybearon said:

@flacracker said:

Why are people here so against esports? There are people out there making a living off it. It is a legitimate business. Millions of people watch LoL and Dota 2 and Starcraft and whatever. Are people trying to seem cooler when they hate on esports? To think they are above it? To show others that they are not that nerdy?

I think the terminology is what bothers people. To call it "esports" is to imply there is athleticism involved. Sure it takes skill to micro-manage and multitask to a high level in Starcraft but to say that's comparable to highly skilled basketball player... it's ostensibly belittling the talent of real athletes.

The only one "obstensibly" belittling people here is you (I can use big words incorrectly too). Nothing about eSports has shit to do with real sports. eSports is its name, and it's growing, so get used to it. I think a highly skilled progamer is equally entitled to being recognised as a basketball player. Heck, there are hundreds of sports I literally couldn't give a fuck about but I at least respect the people who are good at them for showing dedication and talent in their discipline. eSports should be no different.

I didn't give my opinion on it one way or the other. @flacracker asked a question and I gave what I think is the answer.

No need get super defensive there, tough guy.

Avatar image for erhard
erhard

493

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#15  Edited By erhard

@i_stay_puft said:

Are e-sport participants athletes?

Answer: no.

My honest opinion and yes I don't think race car drivers are athletes either.

On what grounds? F1 drivers have average heart rates of 190 BPM for 2 hours.

Avatar image for 2headedninja
2HeadedNinja

2357

Forum Posts

85

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 2

@flacracker said:

Why are people here so against esports? There are people out there making a living off it. It is a legitimate business. Millions of people watch LoL and Dota 2 and Starcraft and whatever. Are people trying to seem cooler when they hate on esports? To think they are above it? To show others that they are not that nerdy?

I think the terminology is what bothers people. To call it "esports" is to imply there is athleticism involved. Sure it takes skill to micro-manage and multitask to a high level in Starcraft but to say that's comparable to highly skilled basketball player... it's ostensibly belittling the talent of real athletes.

So ... someone that is really good at a Videogame ... or Chess ... is inherently worth less than somone who can run fast or throw a ball? Both are things you need talent an skill for and I don't see why one is supposed to be worth more than the other.

Avatar image for wolfgame
Wolfgame

1168

Forum Posts

252

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@oldirtybearon said:

@flacracker said:

Why are people here so against esports? There are people out there making a living off it. It is a legitimate business. Millions of people watch LoL and Dota 2 and Starcraft and whatever. Are people trying to seem cooler when they hate on esports? To think they are above it? To show others that they are not that nerdy?

I think the terminology is what bothers people. To call it "esports" is to imply there is athleticism involved. Sure it takes skill to micro-manage and multitask to a high level in Starcraft but to say that's comparable to highly skilled basketball player... it's ostensibly belittling the talent of real athletes.

So ... someone that is really good at a Videogame ... or Chess ... is inherently worth less than somone who can run fast or throw a ball? Both are things you need talent an skill for and I don't see why one is supposed to be worth more than the other.

But I haven't seen anyone say that competitive gaming shouldn't exist, I just don't see why we feel that we are entitled to the legal visas reserved for athletes. If ya want "esports" to be accepted by people outside of the culture it gets off to a bad step to immediately try to equate it to modern athletes

Avatar image for hatking
hatking

7673

Forum Posts

82

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#18  Edited By hatking

@wolfgame said:

@flacracker: I was just being facetious, you are reading into this way too much. I don't have a problem with people calling esports a thing, but the level of sacrifice physical athletes have to make versus gamers is not even close to comparable. I am not even a sports person and I am willing to admit that.

I recently heard a relatively enlightening argument against that point there. Something about how much time is required of these players. That it's different from poker or chess because the game (re: StarCraft) is constantly changing via patches and whatnot. The players' bodies are, apparently, under significant duress because of the dedication they put into their game. And that while it's, obviously, not as physically demanding as some sports, as it falls under the category of a more cerebral thing, it would probably be just as demanding as something along the lines of archery (which is almost never contested as a real sport).

I'm not much for any sort of competitive entertainment, be it football or Starcraft, so I'm not about to get into a semantic argument about what qualifies for a sport. But, personally, I think any time somebody can qualify for a visa, it's a good thing, culturally speaking. Visiting/touring/immigrating are all generally fantastic for furthering world culture in a community. And this sort of thing might help video games be taken more seriously in the mainstream.

Avatar image for greggd
GreggD

4596

Forum Posts

981

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 4

#19  Edited By GreggD

@chavtheworld said:

@austinslin: Progress!

Also, everyone here shitting on this is a douchebag.

@oldirtybearon said:

@flacracker said:

Why are people here so against esports? There are people out there making a living off it. It is a legitimate business. Millions of people watch LoL and Dota 2 and Starcraft and whatever. Are people trying to seem cooler when they hate on esports? To think they are above it? To show others that they are not that nerdy?

I think the terminology is what bothers people. To call it "esports" is to imply there is athleticism involved. Sure it takes skill to micro-manage and multitask to a high level in Starcraft but to say that's comparable to highly skilled basketball player... it's ostensibly belittling the talent of real athletes.

The only one "obstensibly" belittling people here is you (I can use big words incorrectly too). Nothing about eSports has shit to do with real sports. eSports is its name, and it's growing, so get used to it. I think a highly skilled progamer is equally entitled to being recognised as a basketball player. Heck, there are hundreds of sports I literally couldn't give a fuck about but I at least respect the people who are good at them for showing dedication and talent in their discipline. eSports should be no different.

I didn't give my opinion on it one way or the other. @flacracker asked a question and I gave what I think is the answer.

No need get super defensive there, tough guy.

But angst.

Avatar image for i_stay_puft
I_Stay_Puft

5581

Forum Posts

1879

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 5

@erhard said:

@i_stay_puft said:

Are e-sport participants athletes?

Answer: no.

My honest opinion and yes I don't think race car drivers are athletes either.

On what grounds? F1 drivers have average heart rates of 190 BPM for 2 hours.

I just don't think they're athletes its one of those age old debates. They are good at what they do but will I put a Mario Andretti on the same pedestal of a Jesse Owens? My answer is still no.

Avatar image for dalai
Dalai

7868

Forum Posts

955

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 3

User Lists: 0

Does this mean I'm an amateur athlete because I play video games? Because if that's true, the state of athletics is dire.

Avatar image for hunkulese
Hunkulese

4225

Forum Posts

310

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Wow people sure get angry over nothing. An Athlete gets a visa to come and complete. A gamer gets a visa to come and compete. It's the same thing. Obviously gamers aren't athletes but what's the point of having to create a new visa when you already have one that encompasses everything?

Avatar image for yinstarrunner
yinstarrunner

1314

Forum Posts

20

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#23  Edited By yinstarrunner

I can understand people feeling icky about it because "games aren't physically demanding", but that doesn't mean that they don't require a shitton of practice and aren't legitimate sport.

For example, Violet here plays Starcraft 2. If you want to play Starcraft 2 at the highest possible levels, you need to be practicing non-stop. I mean, 8-12 hours a day. That's a huge time investment that probably excels the amount of sheer time "normal" athletes put into their work. Nothing against them of course; I'm sure many of them would practice more if not for the limitations of the human body. Asides from that, playing Starcraft for a long period of time is extremely taxing on the mental side of things.

No, they aren't "athletes" in the traditional sense, but that train of thought also extends to Chess players and Professional bowlers. Let's grow up, people, and stop crying over some vague definitions. And I don't think this will suddenly cause Pro Gamers to want to put themselves in the same league as traditional athletes, either.

Avatar image for ll_exile_ll
ll_Exile_ll

3386

Forum Posts

25

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 2

#24  Edited By ll_Exile_ll

@wolfgame said:

@2headedninja said:

@oldirtybearon said:

@flacracker said:

Why are people here so against esports? There are people out there making a living off it. It is a legitimate business. Millions of people watch LoL and Dota 2 and Starcraft and whatever. Are people trying to seem cooler when they hate on esports? To think they are above it? To show others that they are not that nerdy?

I think the terminology is what bothers people. To call it "esports" is to imply there is athleticism involved. Sure it takes skill to micro-manage and multitask to a high level in Starcraft but to say that's comparable to highly skilled basketball player... it's ostensibly belittling the talent of real athletes.

So ... someone that is really good at a Videogame ... or Chess ... is inherently worth less than somone who can run fast or throw a ball? Both are things you need talent an skill for and I don't see why one is supposed to be worth more than the other.

But I haven't seen anyone say that competitive gaming shouldn't exist, I just don't see why we feel that we are entitled to the legal visas reserved for athletes. If ya want "esports" to be accepted by people outside of the culture it gets off to a bad step to immediately try to equate it to modern athletes

That argument is dumb on so many levels. You're saying that because the visa has the term "athlete" attached to it, pro gamers shouldn't be allowed to qualify? You are basically saying that, due to a technicality of nomenclature, these competitors should be forced to jump through hoops just to be able to come to this country to compete?

You do realize that it's just called "athlete visa", right? It doesn't officially and unequivocally state that now and for the rest of time esports competitors shall be known across the globe as athletes officially and unquestionably. Chess players and other professional competitors in a variety of non-physical activities all qualify for this visa as well, it has to be called something and athlete visa is what was chosen.

The bottom line is that esports competitors from other countries need a relatively hassle free way to attend tournaments in the US and they meet the criteria for this visa, the terminology is irrelevant.

Avatar image for erhard
erhard

493

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@erhard said:

@i_stay_puft said:

Are e-sport participants athletes?

Answer: no.

My honest opinion and yes I don't think race car drivers are athletes either.

On what grounds? F1 drivers have average heart rates of 190 BPM for 2 hours.

I just don't think they're athletes its one of those age old debates. They are good at what they do but will I put a Mario Andretti on the same pedestal of a Jesse Owens? My answer is still no.

You haven't given a reason yet.

Avatar image for deactivated-5e49e9175da37
deactivated-5e49e9175da37

10812

Forum Posts

782

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 14

They are absolutely athletes that are playing a game for sport, just like a million other sportsmen who play games for sport. The word athlete comes from the word for competition, Victorian Brits assigned it to mean track and field sports.

That you are more impressed with one compared to the other really has nothing to do with it. Once you realize this, it should be easy. That I'm not impressed with stacking plastic cups does not mean that a speed stacking competition is not a sporting event.

Avatar image for nictel
Nictel

2698

Forum Posts

202

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 2

This truly is the age of the nerd. We are now even defeating sport jocks at their own thing!

Avatar image for autumn_thunder
autumn_thunder

167

Forum Posts

3108

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 3

For Violet in particular it was get the visa or join mandatory Korean military service.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=438107

Terminology issues aside, I don't see how anyone can be against giving players visas. If you have an ability to make a reasonable income from tournament winnings and sponsorships but can't due to being denied access to the country where events take place, well that kinda sucks.

Avatar image for hunkulese
Hunkulese

4225

Forum Posts

310

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

They are absolutely athletes that are playing a game for sport, just like a million other sportsmen who play games for sport. The word athlete comes from the word for competition, Victorian Brits assigned it to mean track and field sports.

That you are more impressed with one compared to the other really has nothing to do with it. Once you realize this, it should be easy. That I'm not impressed with stacking plastic cups does not mean that a speed stacking competition is not a sporting event.

They're definitely not athletes. Maybe they would have been in Ancient Greece, but they're not in the modern sense of the word. It's silly to try and argue that they are athletes.

However, they meet the exact same criteria as an athlete does for needing a visa so it makes sense that they should be able to acquire an athlete visa.

Avatar image for doctorchimp
Doctorchimp

4190

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 2

Wow people sure get angry over nothing. An Athlete gets a visa to come and complete. A gamer gets a visa to come and compete. It's the same thing. Obviously gamers aren't athletes but what's the point of having to create a new visa when you already have one that encompasses everything?

Cause this is the internet, where everything is a struggle between us and them.

Avatar image for mikkaq
MikkaQ

10296

Forum Posts

52

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 2

By that definition Lang Lang could arrive on an athlete's visa. It's a bit silly. Might as well rebrand it a performance visa and make it encompass everything related to skillful performance. That would make more sense, but hey bureaucracy!

Avatar image for xalienxgreyx
xaLieNxGrEyx

2646

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

He's making money playing against other tier 1 competition. I'm fine with this.

Avatar image for austinslin
austinslin

6

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#33  Edited By austinslin

Thanks for everyone's thoughts on this!

In a globalized world--where competing head-to-head with someone from another country now only requires an internet connection--the concept of competition is no different than it has ever been, but the possibilities of exercising it are broadening.

To the point @yinstarrunner raised, a similar link can be had to chess players definitely. Competitive chess isn't new to the world, either in person (my own results in the cafeterias of my middle school days reminded me how awful I am at chess) or virtually (anyone else remember watching a telnet connection link up in the 1990s to join a chess game? Alas, my chess prowess on a computer lab terminal rivaled the same low-rung performance as my in-person endeavors) and no one has considered granting athlete visas to chess Grandmasters from across the globe, but perhaps one underlying point in the modern era is that an internet connection enables a chess player to compete anywhere, any time of day, at the highest levels of their abilities.

There is certainly a difference in competing physically on a court or fencing strip than across processors and graphics cards (or telnet chess rooms), and I interpreted the visa issuance not necessarily as the labeling over what is or isn't an athlete, but perhaps just the expansion of what it means to compete, with different countries themselves defining what it means to be a global athlete or, for that matter, a global competitor (a slippery slope when the broadest context of "competition" is taken into account, surely).

For those Pro Gamers who compete for a living, I think this is a great step, whichever visa or international bureaurcracy it's under.

A few years ago on a business trip to Korea, I was in Seoul during the World Cup season. Korea had advanced and with their player's enthusiasm, an entire city, an entire country was captivated. As I was taking the subway back to my hotel, the streets were filled with the red t-shirts, red flags. And the heat in the spectators eyes matched those I saw on the faces of the actual soccer players on every television I passed in a window or restaurant bar. Back in the hotel, alongside hearing people cheer three rooms away through the walls when Korea scored, I flipped to a broadcast competitive gaming channel, also featuring Korean pro gamers and a competitor country, and that same fire was no less intense in their eyes.

@HatKing--I think that's where the real victory is: visiting/ touring, bringing gamers together in person in a world where many may have only ever competed screen-to-screen, headset to headset. My own abilities as competitive gamer have never extended beyond Wii bowling and people related to me, but I'm a fan of those folks out there--real, competitive pro gamers that are creating one more channel by which connectivity shrinks all those past constraints of geographical limitations.

In that light, a real global gaming culture--interacting globally and competing globally and cheering globally--whether you're labeled an "athlete" or not---just somehow makes awesome sense.

Avatar image for justin258
Justin258

16686

Forum Posts

26

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 11

User Lists: 8

I don't see the issue. One type of player does something that is mentally taxing for long periods of time, the other does something physically taxing for long periods of time.

Hell, if you really want to dig into it, you don't perform as well mentally if you aren't, in some way, physically active. So ha! Take that! (Yes, I'm kidding on that bit).

Avatar image for austinslin
austinslin

6

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#35  Edited By austinslin

@believer258 ha. No wonder my fencing coach used to thrash my knees with a blunt sword when I foolishly let daydreaming creep into fencing practice. In the gaming world, the haptic feedback of Playstation controllers and the like have always given me that unforgettable handshake just when I'm about to get trounced in Silent Hill (which is filed under the same memories of punching myself during a round of Wii golf--mental and physical stimulation). Sorry for the late reply, thought this re-comment was posted (again, testament to my e-prowess).