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What do you want to see from next gen engines?

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MordeaniisChaos

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#1  Edited By MordeaniisChaos

Watching the Deus Ex quicklook, I was reminded of just how much I HATE cube mapped reflections and similar methods used in games these days, particularly on PCs. So I thought it'd be interesting to see what people really want out of games on consoles next generation, or in general from PC games.

Here's my list:

PC-

1) Real time reflections! Sure, cube mapping was impressive in HL2, but it's gotten to the point where I want things that are reflective to reflect real time. It doesn't have to be everything, but anything significant definitely. GTA IV is a great example of how that can enhance the look of a game. Driving around Liberty City, particularly later in the day, or on a rainy night, was always super impressive. Even consoles are capable of such reflections, and it's a little disappointing devs aren't willing to take some time to put it as on option on PC games, because it really does look so much better than the reflections of today's games just moving with you.

2) More dynamics! I love anything dynamic in video games. Even if it isn't really dynamic, and just appears to be, like the effect wind had on characters in Metal Gear Solid 4. Anything from cloth/hair physics to interactive water to the wet-Drake effect from Uncharted just makes the world feel so much realer. I can't believe there continue to be games without so much as canned ripples, just a texture without even a normal or anything, when games like Gears of War 2 can have such great water.

3) DYNAMIC LIGHTING, SELF SHADOWING. Seriously guys, it's 2011. We have games like Crysis out there that use nothing but Dynamic shadows. Hell, even Borderlands was mostly dynamic shadows. I want to see wayyyy more of that. It adds hugely to the fidelity and immersion of the game. There isn't much that takes me out of a game more than looking at a closed door and seeing light filtering through as if it were open. It gets even worse with games like HL2, which does that AS WELL as having an actual shadow on the door. This particular issue came off very strongly in that Gears 3 footage we got from GB recently, in the helicopter, it looked awful because none of the shadows came through, with the chopper being in the way, so it was all just ambient lighting and shading. But as soon as they stepped out into the light, it looked WAY better.

4) Fewer shitty textures. One thing that always ticked me off about PC gaming was that so often, particularly with console ports, you would see a lot of really low resolution textures in "unimportant" places. Particularly bad are pretty much any games with middle eastern locales, it seems like no one wants to add decent textures to Middle Eastern environments. It's really frustrating having all this VRAM and seeing all of these grainy, noisy textures everywhere. It was one of my favorite things in Crysis, where you could look at the ground, it actually looked clean and highly detailed, not a mess of patterns made to resemble what it represented, but often photographic in quality/nature.

5) Better post processing! I love post processing. Ambient Occlusion, bloom, blur, all that stuff. I love it. When it's done right. However, a lot of games do it really poorly. I'm not liking the way some of the AO looks in Deus Ex: HR, the bloom in games like Halo 2 and Oblivion look AWFUL, and the motion blur in a lot of games is pretty poor, or when it's not even motion based, like anything running on that RE5/LP2 engine that exploded doing that awful radial blur. But you look at games like Crysis 2, which I felt nailed things like bloom better than just about any other game (Uncharted 2 is about the same level, with a more reigned in look, that isn't quite as stylish as Crysis 2). So I'd love to see some higher quality stuff from PP. Things like object based motion blur (that hopefully looks a little better than, for example, some of the Uncharted 2 stuff, which when you look at it, looks a bit janky a lot of the time), and bloom that either enhances the style of the game, or doesn't overpower everything, and hey, add in some AO! It looks pretty good! Only, maybe, don't call it "SSAO" in the menu, just because I'm tired of telling my non-graphics whore friends what it means! And I'd love to see more post processing that enhances the look of the game.

Consoles-

1)Anti-aliasing! This one is a big one, as it's one of the few things you can definitively say the PC is significantly better at than consoles even in console ports. Jagged edges can be really frustrating, particularly when it comes up with certain effects causing extreme jaggies, which seems to be a popular process these days more and more. It seems like some games are certainly getting better about it, especially the bigger titles, as developers start to reach the current consoles' peaks, but there are plenty of jagged games out there today, and it's a bit of a bummer, because AA helps a LOT. It may not be SS or FSAA, but a little 4x or 8x MSAA can go a long way.

2) RESOLUTION. Specifically, 1080p. Thing with resolution is that is directly effects how every part of the game looks. Some things, like textures, can be less effected, as they are often lower resolution anyway, but things like AA become incredibly important and when they don't exist, painfully obvious, even at 720p. Because jagged edges are proportional to the pixel density, the lack of AA can be awful in games like Infamous or Halo 3 or CoD 4 which run at lower resolutions. On top of that, on a native 1080p display, games can look grimy and noisy and grainy, much like DVDs. And there is just a loss of clarity and detail, as well as a requirement for things like larger UI elements, etc.

3) Framerate. 45 frames per second or higher. I recently went back to play some Metal Gear Solid 4 with a friend, and man, the frame rate in that game can tank REAL bad, and is generally pretty low, although there were certainly points where it went super smooth. Part of this is certainly me being spoiled by constantly playing PC games, with my 360 becoming increasingly unplayed, but man, even rock solid 30 fps is rough looking. It gets worse when you look at games like InFamous or Dark Sector which both had a tendency to sometimes randomly, sometimes not so randomly go to running like fucking butter which made it all the more obvious how, even for console games, those games kinda ran like garbage.

BOTH: Add some flair, some style! Make your game look unique, look at games like TF2 or DOTA 2 or WoW and try and emulate the livetime of the visuals in the game with clever use of lower poly/fidelity visuals that manage to still look really sharp and clean for a long time.

So what do you folks want to see? Anything I didn't add? Which of these are most important to you? I'm particularly curious which of the console things I mentioned people want most, as those seem to be fairly divisive with people.

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Grissefar

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#2  Edited By Grissefar

I don't cry every time I see a tear, I just want my games to be fun and reflections or shadows don't have any impact on that whatsoever. If the technical stuff is what makes or breaks your gameplay experience, maybe you should re-evaluate why you play games in the first place. I don't want developers to enter 3-year cycles just so they can please some tech savvy guy who jacks off to the improved shadows, I want their priority to be the gameplay. If I were to pick apart every game I played based on the technical stuff, I think It'd be much less fun to game in general.

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willin

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#3  Edited By willin

Less brown please.

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charlie_victor_bravo

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Breakable everything. I love destruction!

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BeachThunder

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#5  Edited By BeachThunder
@Lights_Up_The_Shaft said:

Less brown please.

Black and gold will be the new brown :o
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penguindust

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#6  Edited By penguindust

I don't ever want to see texture pop-in again.  That would make me very happy.

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Badhands

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#7  Edited By Badhands
@Grissefar: I don't really think he is saying HAY GAIS GAEMS AREN'T FUN UNLESS LOOK GUD K???? He is saying from an engine stand point what he wants to see, and since a lot of stuff dealing with a games engine will be graphical those are the things he would like to see changed. He isn't saying that those are what he wants for games, it is what he wants for game engines.
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BombKareshi

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#8  Edited By BombKareshi
@Grissefar: Dude, why so aggressive? I don't see any claim in the OP's post that graphics should take priority over gameplay. All I see is a wishlist of nice-to-haves, which, frankly, I agree would be nice to have.
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swoxx

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#9  Edited By swoxx

a minimum of 60fps, pleeeease

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Witzig

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#10  Edited By Witzig
@MordeaniisChaos
As much as this sounds awesome it probably won't happen. I have a bad feeling that the consumer market is becoming to casual. They don't care for anti-aliasing, post processing, and dynamic lighting. They only care that the games are in HD and are easy to play.
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Marz

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#11  Edited By Marz

Ray Tracing in realtime. (yes i do know how ridiculous a request it is)
 
  

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Brendan

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#12  Edited By Brendan

Infinite graphics. INFINITE.

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Akrid

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#13  Edited By Akrid

You hate cubemaps? Wut? 
 
The next big thing will be various implementations of real time global illumination, and BF3 and Crysis 2 are the pioneers in this. That means a whole breadth of lighting effects, including color bleeding and indirect illumination, using not ray tracing but radiosity. We'll also see generally higher fidelity; higher poly counts, higher res textures, more accurate shaders. We'll probably also see the end of low sampled and flickery AO/blur, but no better then Crysis 2 had. Real-time reflections will probably only be implemented when absolutely integral to the experience. That shit is still pretty tough to pull off, and despite your misplaced hate for cubemaps, they're still pretty boss.
 
I don't think we'll see a higher resolution this coming cycle. It'll still be a long time before we see TVs doing anything better then 1080p.
 
But before all that I'd rather have everything running silky smooth. As someone who is pretty much 100% PC these days, going back to my ps3 totally sucks.

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FritzDude

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#14  Edited By FritzDude

Graphics is nice, but i rather see better AI behaviours and real-time physics. Just add Euphoria in any game next gen and i would be happy seal.

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deactivated-6816b56728057

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I want the next gen to be at least twice as powerful as the best PCs there are out when it comes out, so it will take a little more time than a year or so til my PC obliterates the consoles. The reason for this is ports.

And at least 16 GB of RAM/VRAM, so there's something to grow on. Please, no more low res awful looking textures for four years :( So high res everything I guess.

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inkerman

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#16  Edited By inkerman
@charlie_victor_bravo said:
Breakable everything. I love destruction!
+ 1 
 
Destructible ground, buildings, everything! Plus proper physics and particles.
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BeachThunder

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#17  Edited By BeachThunder
@Ertard said:
Please, no more low res awful looking textures for four years :( So high res everything I guess.
Please this. 
 
I'm playing Singularity; in one part I found a really detailed diagram with a bunch of annotations, which just ends up being completely illegible since the actual resolution of the diagram is so low =|
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MordeaniisChaos

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#18  Edited By MordeaniisChaos

@Grissefar: Yup, cause that's what I said. That shitty graphics break a game. Most of the games I used as examples of not so great graphical touches are game that as a whole, I think look great. And no, visuals don't break a game for me. But seeing something not cast a shadow DOES break immersion, and I love games that are real gamey, but I also love games that don't feel like a game first and foremost. Presentation is important to me, you can go ahead and play quake with a bunch of hitboxes running around, but I'm happy to admit that I"m fairly obsessed with the tech behind video games. It's why I want to get into 3D graphics. It's kinda silly that you think that it's up to you what parts of games are "supposed" to be important and which aren't. Because that only extends to you. No one else. If I want to only care about how a game looks, then I can do that. I don't just care about that, but it's still a fascinating subject to me, so I'll go right ahead and love it all I want, and you can kindly fuck off, or let it be. Your choice.

@Akrid: It's a love hate relationship. They work well on small objects, but whenever you try and fake reflections on a large or relatively flat surface, you get some terrible effects. Places like floors and vehicles I think really benefit from realtime reflections. And realtime reflections are totally possible. Oblivion's water does it, Crysis does it I believe, source does it, GTA does it. It's not that intensive, and plenty of people have used it. Obviously it'll have overhead, but everythign does, and the great thing about PCs is they can do a lot of that stuff right now, it's just that no one is taking the time to implement that stuff.

@charlie_victor_bravo said:

Breakable everything. I love destruction!

I actually meant to add that, but it's a weird sort of gameplay things that can be kind of shitty if done wrong, and awesome if done right. I kind of wonder what games would be like if everything had a realistic damage model, letting to take down things like sky scrapers after the millions of explosions take place in side of it.

@Marz: Thing about raytracing is that most of the effects it does, while certainly of a very high quality, can be created in less crazy ways, often you can get the same effect with a more conventional method. Raytracing in real time would be pretty damn awesome, but

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Rekt_Hed

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#19  Edited By Rekt_Hed

I want a new console to have a cup holder and a magnet internally so I can stick paper clips to it

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WickedFather

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#20  Edited By WickedFather

Colourful fun platform games on the 360.  If they could do that I'd take the curse off my grandma put on them in 2005.  That ring of crimson thing.

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Yanngc33

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#21  Edited By Yanngc33

I want to see better crowds and more populated cities

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Akrid

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#22  Edited By Akrid
@MordeaniisChaos said: 

@Akrid: It's a love hate relationship. They work well on small objects, but whenever you try and fake reflections on a large or relatively flat surface, you get some terrible effects. Places like floors and vehicles I think really benefit from realtime reflections. And realtime reflections are totally possible. Oblivion's water does it, Crysis does it I believe, source does it, GTA does it. It's not that intensive, and plenty of people have used it. Obviously it'll have overhead, but everythign does, and the great thing about PCs is they can do a lot of that stuff right now, it's just that no one is taking the time to implement that stuff.

Ah, I see what you mean. Yes, I'd agree that cube maps do look pretty terrible on larger objects.
 
It's worth noting that Crysis 2 doesn't use real time reflections on water, it uses cube maps. So even the best have to make cuts. It's always a matter of budgeting. 
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zeforgotten

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#23  Edited By zeforgotten

Less texture pop-ins. that's easily fixed though, stop using the Unreal Engine but still.

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MordeaniisChaos

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#24  Edited By MordeaniisChaos

@Yanngc33 said:

I want to see better crowds and more populated cities

Excellent point! I hadn't even thought of that, thank you very much. Yes, absolutely. I think that would be awesome. It was one of the things that I loved about Assassin's Creed, and some of the sequences in Gears of War 2, with the huge crowds. I'd definitely like to see that kinda stuff.

@Akrid: Yeah, unless it's small, and have depth and detail to it, it looks really bad, especially when you start trying to line up reflections. Halo 3's lakes were a great example of terrible reflection mapping. I'm kind of detail oriented though, so even with the stuff it usually works well with, I notice pretty quickly and it pulls me out a bit. Real time reflection is still undeniably better, when you can run it well.

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MordeaniisChaos

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#25  Edited By MordeaniisChaos

@WickedFather: I am so confused. What about your grandmother? Curse? What is going on?? o.o

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deactivated-5a00c029ab7c1

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DX9 was great but it's time for devs to let it go dx10 or 11 games only.Also much much more interior in games especially GTA.BF4,128 MP map size with 100 payers.

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BaneFireLord

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#27  Edited By BaneFireLord

Better grass. When I'm walking around Elder Scrolls 6, I want every grass blade to be a 3-dimensional object, not a canned-animated paper cutout.

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#28  Edited By sirdesmond

@charlie_victor_bravo said:

Breakable everything. I love destruction!

I would agree with this. Realistic destruction and fully environmental interaction is definitely the thing I'd want to see most.

Imagine a Grand Theft Auto in which every building in the city can not only be entered, but ever item within all of those buildings picked up, knocked over, broken, etc. and everything has full destructibility.

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Sooty

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#29  Edited By Sooty

Better AI because frankly there's been pretty much ZERO improvements in years. I think F.E.A.R still has the best AI in an FPS and that came out in what, 2004, 2005? That says it all really...

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sparky_buzzsaw

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#31  Edited By sparky_buzzsaw

Less plastic-looking Ken and Barbie doll models for characters, please! Also, just more variations in body types in general would be fantastic. One of the problems I have with most games containing a create-a-character is that, other than clothing variations, most of the models look exactly alike. Give me some height, weight, and bone structure variations, please!

Also, this is less of an engine upgrade, but scalable fonts would be absolutely lovely for those of us who have a hard time reading small fonts. Or maybe some kind of zoom feature/button? I'm not sure.

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Meowshi

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#32  Edited By Meowshi
@JEC03 said:
DX9 was great but it's time for devs to let it go dx10 or 11 games only.Also much much more interior in games especially GTA.BF4,128 MP map size with 100 payers.
This won't cause any problems at all!
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skyline7284

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#33  Edited By skyline7284

BLOOM LIGHTING! Like so much bloom.

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SomeJerk

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#34  Edited By SomeJerk

Priority

1) Good original games

2) 1080p 60fps

3) Then get working on other shit

If they want screenshots looking fancy, make a 4K still frame render using the game engine and scale it down, problem solved, IdSoft's done that forever.

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Ben99

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#35  Edited By Ben99

make everything portable 

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damswedon

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#36  Edited By damswedon
  • I'd like stairs in games instead of a slope with a texture on top of it.
  • Ladders to not be shit.
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tourgen

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#37  Edited By tourgen

serious work on some default AI and pathing.  History has shown very few dev houses can do it very well.  give them some good basic stuff to plug in "for free" and solid enough that a script-monkey can play with it to get custom behavior easily and quickly.
 
more dynamic environments.

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JoeyRavn

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#38  Edited By JoeyRavn

I like the way games look and feel today, for the most part, so I can't ask for anything else that what's been said in that respect. But I'd like to see developers learning to use better the techonlogies they have available. They may achieve incredible things with DirectX 11 and what not, but more is not always better. It's amazing how little effort is put in optimizing things nowadays. Or in the case of Crysis 2, too much effort in something detrimental to the game's performance.

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#39  Edited By MrKlorox

All liquids should be fluid physics based. Even gasses in some games; I want explosions to expand down corridors and fire should waft as I run past it.

edit: Also, I never want to see a hard particle ever again as long as I live.

@BeachThunder said:

@Lights_Up_The_Shaft said:

Less brown please.

Black and gold will be the new brown :o

If that wasn't also a Latin Kings pun, it should have been.

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deactivated-5b43dadb9061b

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@Inkerman said:
@charlie_victor_bravo said:
Breakable everything. I love destruction!
+ 1  Destructible ground, buildings, everything! Plus proper physics and particles.
Destructible everything depends on the game really. It could work if the game is made around that but if it's not it could totally ruin the story telling of pathing of same games.
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NTM

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#41  Edited By NTM

Let's just say, it needs to look nearly as good as Avatar.

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WickedCestus

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#42  Edited By WickedCestus

I couldn't give less of a shit about graphics; they're good enough as they are.

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Addfwyn

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#43  Edited By Addfwyn

Well, I disagree that games should take notes from TF2/WoW/Dota 2 (as I think all 3 look kinda terrible visually) but I understand the point you're getting at and I agree.

My wish list isn't too long, cause I'm actually very content with current gen consoles for the most part in terms of hardware or gaming engines, so a couple of my points aren't directly related to engine (and more about general wants).

1) 1080p I've seen it on some games, but as you said, more games with this would be really nice. It's not always strictly necessary, but for big name disc-games especially I'm a bit disappointed to see 720p on the back more often than not.

2) A bit better/more consistent frame rates. I'm okay with games locked at lower frame rates usually as long as they can maintain it, but if something is hiccuping on a console, that's unacceptable to me. PCs vary widely enough that you can't account for it always, but a developer on the console knows EXACTLY what he/she is dealing with, and having frame rates fluctuate like that is just unacceptable.

3) No focus on motion gaming or other gimmicks. Okay, so it's not 'what I want' so much as 'what I don't want', but I don't want a gimmick focused system (like the Wii). Not to say you can't have some weird/fun peripherals, but I still want my core game experience to be a controller and my game, menus etc.

4) More JRPGs on consoles. The handhelds were the bastion of this last generation, but I kinda miss the big epic console JRPGs that have basically always been my favourite genre. There were a few I really enjoyed (FFXIII or RoF) but it was a bit more lacking than I'd have liked.

The last two weren't engine based, but just threw them in as things I want in the next generation anyway.

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Origina1Penguin

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#44  Edited By Origina1Penguin

Many of those seem like technical limitation of hardware. As you can see from tech demos, the engines themselves are quite capable. What I would like is more/better automated systems and procedural generation so games can be made faster. I love the concept of SpeedTree because it does most of the work for you. Without it being automatic, smaller devs have no chance of providing advanced graphics like many people want to see because they have to spend time with manual coding solutions and have less time for aesthetic tweaks.

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Branthog

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#45  Edited By Branthog

I'd like to see developers focus on some aspects just outside of "ooh, shiny!". Like AI. It is really sad that in 2011, the AI you get in a game like Deus Ex is just so fucking sad. Other than that, I'd like to see more attention to the realistic animation of human bodies and faces. They still look so fucking cardboard and robotic and herky-jerky (not to mention how on these 2005 consoles, they still look so muddy and fucking blocky). If they could focus on those two things alone, it would make a significant difference. I think it would have a certain mental influence on how the rest of a game is perceived, when characters stop moving stupidly and looking like paper-doll cutouts.

Beyond that, just the regular stuff. Higher resolution textures, better lighting, more things occurring on the screen at one time (which for open world games can make a hell of a lot of difference in the immersion).