I have sources that tell me Phil Fish has built an elaborate dungeon underneath a gothic town and awaits at the bottom for any brave enough to try and kill him. His dungeon does not have a real money auction house.
Realistically. He didn't even make even 1% as much as Braid and Limbo have.
You sound as dumb as the shit you just pulled out of your ass after saying that.
Actually, it costs 40K in order to release AN UPDATE on Xbox Live... I am not joking. Obsidian had to pay that much to get Fallout new vegas patches on there... who knows how much a damn Arcade game costed and how many fees they have to pay constantly! There is no way he got any good amount of money from this venture. No way in the deepest firey pits of hell he got any good money off of it.
I give praise to those who deserve it. A guy who insults other hard working developers and then copies them completely doesn't deserve any at all IMO.
Copies them? Explain
I'm going to second this question.
FEZ is filled to the brim with original ideas built within a world of homage. Fish has done some very interesting things with game design and, as far as I'm concerned, is completely welcome to trash the garbage that comes out of Japan all he likes.
Yes, I am aware that solid games come through every now and then, but they lag behind all other regions in terms of proper forward movement in game design--and it goes far beyond 'homage' with their grounded roots. Example: Capcom's overzealous DLC/re-release model, Nintendo's dependence on stagnant franchises, Koei Tecmo's dependence on stagnant franchises and re-releases, etc.. You'd be hard-pressed to find something interesting coming out of Japan that isn't Atlus or From Software.
Anyway, this is a wholly different argument. Fish has proven himself and more developers need to voice their opinions. I find him refreshing.
After watching Indie Game: The Movie, I can totally understand how and why Phil Fish (or "Fil Phish", as I usually get his name mixed up) would react that way. It's obvious that he's a very talented designer, but not really fit for PR. If he had had someone whose sole responsability was dealing with the public instead of him, he wouldn't have reacted the way he did. Designing and producing a game on your own is pretty tough (just look at the Team Meat guys), but if on top of that you have to put a nice face and deal with people, things can get nasty. And, let's admit it, the Internet can and will eventually get to you.
I judge people by people, not for who they hire to make people look like good people... If you catch my drift. IMO, no company should hire a PR firm unless they royally fucked up and need to apologize for something massive. Otherwise treat your customers like human beings and be nice... that is literally all that needs to be said about PR stuff which can easily be avoided.
Except that everyone is different. It may be nice to believe that everyone is perfect and can maintain composure 100% of the time no matter what's going on in their life. If you want to tell me though that if someone had you on camera/on record saying some of the worst things you've ever said in your life, regardless of context, that you'd turn out to be a better person that Phil Fish, I'd call bullshit.
I'm not saying that the guy was right in the things he's said. He could have stood to choose his words better when talking about Japanese games, I feel, or to just not talk about it at all at a place such as he was at, but to think that no one needs PR when they're forced to deal with the public at all times, and dealing with the public is something that they may or may not have any experience with or be any good at? No way. PR exists for a reason and it's because not everyone is eloquent with their words. Not everyone keeps perfect composure 100% of the time when dealing with people. Not everyone is great with words *period*. You basically want everyone to be perfect and the same, and that's just not how people are.
No I said that if they had even a bit of common sense they would never get into any of these messes to begin with. Fuck, all it takes not to be such a asshole is willpower and some damn kindness with quite a bit of common sense.
Sure people aren't great with words. Look at Hideo Kojima! That guy is nervous and all that whenever he tries to announce a game. But we sit through it and you wanna know why? Because the guy cares about what he does and is willing to speak English, a language that some Americans don't even know how to correctly use in order to bring us news about a new video game! Doesn't matter if you are nervous or embarress yourself because no matter what, people can see the heart and soul of what you are doing. That is far more important than any PR firm could ever do.
So yeah, if you aren't good with words. Just be careful with those words. I mean. Fuck man. Just stop being a dickhead is all we ask. Sure no one is 100% composed on anything. Like with me, when I get tricked I get pissed off. But I don't let it out because I know I will regret it later on. Just let it be known you are frustrated with something instead of being completely assholish about it like Phil Fish here.
So what you're saying is... if you're not good with words.. be good with words? Because when I say "not good with words" I don't just mean you have problems composing a full sentence or speaking with confidence. Some people, when they get nervous, their brain to mouth filter flies out the window. Much like how most guys, especially when young, when trying to impress a girl, will end up sounding like total idiots. Being bad with words is not limited to stuttering, or being bad at composing a sentence. Furthermore, some people are just socially awkward, but may be brilliant people. Good on Kojima for rambling on for forever. Guess what, not everyone is like Kojima, and that's my point. You can't point to an example and say "he needs to be more like him" because then I can just look at Kojima, point to someone that's even better with the social stage than Kojima and say "Kojima should be more like that guy." and so on. I'm not writing Phil a free pass, but you've condemned the man as the scum of the earth because he's potentially socially awkward and not great with words/in social situations where the pressure gets put on him, or, because he's just simply not used to public forums enough to know what is ok to say and what things can be said and taken drastically out of context.
After watching Indie Game: The Movie, I can totally understand how and why Phil Fish (or "Fil Phish", as I usually get his name mixed up) would react that way. It's obvious that he's a very talented designer, but not really fit for PR. If he had had someone whose sole responsability was dealing with the public instead of him, he wouldn't have reacted the way he did. Designing and producing a game on your own is pretty tough (just look at the Team Meat guys), but if on top of that you have to put a nice face and deal with people, things can get nasty. And, let's admit it, the Internet can and will eventually get to you.
I judge people by people, not for who they hire to make people look like good people... If you catch my drift. IMO, no company should hire a PR firm unless they royally fucked up and need to apologize for something massive. Otherwise treat your customers like human beings and be nice... that is literally all that needs to be said about PR stuff which can easily be avoided.
You are missing my point here. I believe that Phil came out as an asshole because he was forced to put up with a lot of pressure and he just wasn't up to the task. He lost control of the situation and said things that could have been said in much better ways. If he had had someone who was in charge of dealing with the public, talking about the game at PAX or E3 or wherever they were showing it and all that stuff, he could have kept in the shadows as a programmer/developer, a role that suits him a lot more, if you ask me. I have absolutely no doubt that Phil Fish cares about his customers and the product he is selling to them, but not everyone can cope with pressure in the same perfect way as you, Jay. He was almost a one-man team who obviously needed some PR precisely just to avoid royally fucking up.
@Ace829: Alex made a non-direct tweet, which led to a breakdown.
To be fair, what Alex said was stupid. Alex reviews games (mostly bad ones, it seems, of which he talks a massive "gang of shit" about) for a living, but doesn't know the first thing about actually making a game.
Not defending Alex's criticism (the "you haven't shipped anything" argument is awfully weak), but Fish's comeback was equally bad.
Phil doesn´t need a good PR agent or shit like that. He doesn´t want to work with anyone and doesn´t even need his own business. As long as he has a computer, he is going to create video games. Wether people like it or not. It´s either that or he kills himself. Which may happen. He is an asshole and he is going to stand by what he said. I agree, he should apologize, but I also respect the balls he has to tell everyone to just fuck off.
People on the internet will always complain about shit so Phil telling everyone to suck his dick is just the same thing as what everyone else does when critiquing his work and his personal life based only on a couple of statements he´s made. I believe he is a troubled man that needs to get his shit together, but props to him for having the balls of defending his work.
Basically what I would say to Phil if I saw him is "Fuck you Phil, you´re an asshole, but you make some pretty damn good games. Don´t listen to the fucking retards on the internet. Peace."
I think the backlash to what Phil Fish said was WAY overblown. It's pretty common knowledge that the current Japanese games industry is struggling, and I agree that Japanese game design has been getting stale. He might have said it a little frankly, but I think he was right. As others have pointed out, Fez is in many ways a love letter to classic Japanese games. It's very easy to see why someone who was in love with the classics would be disappointed in what that industry is currently putting out.
Saying "French movies suck" or "American cars suck" is not racism, so why is saying "Japanese games suck"? Being disappointed in an industry is not the same has hating a culture. Condemning him as a racist for this remark really takes away from the injustice that is Actual Racism. It's just as dumb as telling someone they can't have an opinion about games until they release a game.
I'm going to put it this way: How many of you have been public figures on the internet? How many of you public figures have gotten a bad reputation for some sloppy comments and had the internet (read: more than five people) jump on your back for it?
No one?
What a surprise. He seems like a regular dude who's not good with PR. For all the, "He's a dick" comments, you guys seem pretty catty yourselves.
Fish rage quit Twitter after the internet gave him shift for being an asshole at GDC and the IGF Awards.
In fairness, he was a massive asshole.
Was it just the comments about Japanese games? That's all I ever heard about and the backlash seemed excessive if that was purely the reason.
After that happened, he subsequently won the top IGF award for Fez (for the second time in four years) and then basically told everyone on Twitter to suck his dick. As a winner, he demonstrated no grace nor class.
He didn't tell everyone to suck his dick. It was one guy being a bellend.
Oh, so I was right and this is all just a massive over-reaction.
People were being dicks on GAF and twitter, dude has worked on more than Fez so their comments on never having shipped a game were also ludicrous.
And he acts like a human being as a result and gets shat on? Yeah, totally don't understand the hate.
It was a bunch of frustrated comments online. We've all done it before. Big deal. And to be honest, I can't argue against his opinions on the state of the Japanese industry.
It was more than one tweet that made it go on for so long.
I'm going to put it this way: How many of you have been public figures on the internet? How many of you public figures have gotten a bad reputation for some sloppy comments and had the internet (read: more than five people) jump on your back for it?
No one?
What a surprise. He seems like a regular dude who's not good with PR. For all the, "He's a dick" comments, you guys seem pretty catty yourselves.
Agree with all of this. The guy's a kooky creative type, who obviously has a great mind. He's just a bit of a snob, and a little too outspoken. But I don't think he deserved nearly the backlash he got.
@Ace829: Alex made a non-direct tweet, which led to a breakdown.
To be fair, what Alex said was stupid. Alex reviews games (mostly bad ones, it seems, of which he talks a massive "gang of shit" about) for a living, but doesn't know the first thing about actually making a game.
Not defending Alex's criticism (the "you haven't shipped anything" argument is awfully weak), but Fish's comeback was equally bad.
I think you're missing the point of Fish's reply. What Fish was questioning is the idea that it's somehow wrong for a game developer to criticize games until that developer ships one--because they supposedly don't know enough about the subject to make an informed critique--but it's fine for Alex to criticize games for a living, even though he's never developed one himself.
It's fucking stupid. Either it is okay to criticize something you haven't done yourself, or it's not. You can't have it both ways, and it's an INCREDIBLY poor--not to mention childish--argument to make in the first place.
It's one more example of just why I loathe the fact that Alex left Screened, and is now officially a part of Giant Bomb. His brand of bitter sarcasm made for some highly entertaining Nick Cage themed articles, but I'm just sick of seeing those same personality traits cropping up in almost every one of his news articles.
That's a subjective statement to the extreme. Fish is entitled to his opinion, but his statements are not objectively correct.
Maybe I'm only playing good Japanese games, but yeah, thats a dumb statement. I thought FEZ was great, but there are many japanese games I've played this gen that are more memorable and fun.
@Nottle: You are part of a Gaming community website, based on people reviewing games. I wonder why you don't spend money on bad games, and only play the cream of the crop.
What about the part where he was right about Japanese games being dog shit?
I've made zero games, and I can tell that Japanese games have been dog shit for a few years.
Once again, that's a highly subjective statement. There are bad Japanese games, there are bad American games, there are bad Canadian games, British games, French games... But developers in all of these countries also produce excellent games.
He's like the worst kind of internet asshole except that he's not anonymous now. So its no wonder i'd want to take a break from the internet especially now that he's released Fez, made his money and can afford it.
Also, I like Phil Fish. He is a genuine person and I feel he was treated unfairly for a comment that was blown way out of proportion.
Definitely! And if you love video games, you just are not doing any favours for the medium if you can so easily turn on its talent.
The guy was under immense stress and had been working on this fucking thing for years. He makes one poorly worded comment (of which I agree with the sentiment) and everyone writes the guy off as a total cock. Ryan called Brad a faggot in anger and we are all long since moved on, why can't we cut Phil the same slack?
Also, I like Phil Fish. He is a genuine person and I feel he was treated unfairly for a comment that was blown way out of proportion.
Definitely! And if you love video games, you just are not doing any favours for the medium if you can so easily turn on its talent.
The guy was under immense stress and had been working on this fucking thing for years. He makes one poorly worded comment (of which I agree with the sentiment) and everyone writes the guy off as a total cock. Ryan called Brad a faggot in anger and we are all long since moved on, why can't we cut Phil the same slack?
Because Ryan took to the forum to apologies no more than an hour later. Phil took to twitter to fight against every single person that didn't agree with him, calling names and showing a general lack of class about the situation or when he won at the IGF.
Also, I like Phil Fish. He is a genuine person and I feel he was treated unfairly for a comment that was blown way out of proportion.
Definitely! And if you love video games, you just are not doing any favours for the medium if you can so easily turn on its talent.
The guy was under immense stress and had been working on this fucking thing for years. He makes one poorly worded comment (of which I agree with the sentiment) and everyone writes the guy off as a total cock. Ryan called Brad a faggot in anger and we are all long since moved on, why can't we cut Phil the same slack?
Because Ryan took to the forum to apologies no more than an hour later. Phil took to twitter to fight against every single person that didn't agree with, calling names and showing a general lack of class about the situation or when he won at the IGF.
Exactly what I am saying. What Ryan did was infinitely worse, but he handled it in the best way possible. Phil was cracking under pressure and went into a defensive mode. Ryan had his reputation and possibly his job on the line. Phil was defending everything he is and worked on.
Also, I like Phil Fish. He is a genuine person and I feel he was treated unfairly for a comment that was blown way out of proportion.
Definitely! And if you love video games, you just are not doing any favours for the medium if you can so easily turn on its talent.
The guy was under immense stress and had been working on this fucking thing for years. He makes one poorly worded comment (of which I agree with the sentiment) and everyone writes the guy off as a total cock. Ryan called Brad a faggot in anger and we are all long since moved on, why can't we cut Phil the same slack?
Doesn't Phil Fish have a history of making asshole comments? Specifically derived from Jeff's reaction to his "japanese games sucks" comment being something along the lines "have you heard anything this guy's said for the last year?" or something like that.
@Akeldama: You don't understand. You're asking why people don't cut him some slack. People don't because when they tell him they don't agree with his comments regarding Japanese games he just rights them off and tell them to suck it or go fuck themselves. He's not just stating an opinion, he is actively insulting every one that dares show a different opinion. It's as simple as that. What he did was not initially worst than what Ryan said. But he has actively worked towards NOT defending his opinion but rather telling everyone else to go fuck themselves instead.
@Pr1mus: In fairness, I have not seen the GAF thread, I have only seen him telling the one guy (who totally deserved it) to suck his dick after winning the IGF grand prize. Seeing the comment Alex made on Twitter and using that as a bit of an indicator, I can see why Phil says some of the shit he does. Yes, Phil can be a cock, but having people make comments like the one Alex made only makes the situation worse.
@Akeldama: After seeing his depiction in the Indie Game Movie, I am actively put off by his personality and feel no need to cut him any slack. The scummy way the whole ex-business partner angle was handled in the film probably had something to do with it.
@Akeldama: After seeing his depiction in the Indie Game Movie, I am actively put off by his personality and feel no need to cut him any slack. The scummy way the whole ex-business partner angle was handled in the film probably had something to do with it.
So seeing that part of the film, have you done any research into both sides of the story?
@Akeldama: After seeing his depiction in the Indie Game Movie, I am actively put off by his personality and feel no need to cut him any slack. The scummy way the whole ex-business partner angle was handled in the film probably had something to do with it.
So seeing that part of the film, have you done any research into both sides of the story?
In the credits, the text read "Phil Fish's ex-business partner declined to participate in this story" or something along those lines. It was only after the maker of Dyad, Shawn McGrath, made a giant stink about it stating that it is the exact opposite of the truth (McGrath knows the ex-business partner personally) that the text was edited to say "Phil Fish's ex-business partner was not asked to participate in this story", or something along those lines. There are screen shots of both versions floating around that I can find if you want.
That is definition of scummy, and it makes me think poorly of Fish by extension.
What about the part where he was right about Japanese games being dog shit?
I've made zero games, and I can tell that Japanese games have been dog shit for a few years.
Once again, that's a highly subjective statement. There are bad Japanese games, there are bad American games, there are bad Canadian games, British games, French games... But developers in all of these countries also produce excellent games.
Why are you comparing each respective region's worst, and not their best? Pit the best american games against the best Japanese games, and it's not close. Japanese games STILL feel like Hi-Res PS2 games to me many times. Not always, but way more than 2012 should allow.
Jesus christ. Why is this thread still going? And why is it this long?
We haven't even hit double digit pages yet. This is preschool league.
Let's make it to 35 and get his attention!
@DFSVegas said:
Why are you comparing each respective region's worst, and not their best? Pit the best american games against the best Japanese games, and it's not close. Japanese games STILL feel like Hi-Res PS2 games to me many times. Not always, but way more than 2012 should allow.
What about the part where he was right about Japanese games being dog shit?
I've made zero games, and I can tell that Japanese games have been dog shit for a few years.
Once again, that's a highly subjective statement. There are bad Japanese games, there are bad American games, there are bad Canadian games, British games, French games... But developers in all of these countries also produce excellent games.
Why are you comparing each respective region's worst, and not their best? Pit the best american games against the best Japanese games, and it's not close. Japanese games STILL feel like Hi-Res PS2 games to me many times. Not always, but way more than 2012 should allow.
If the latter is far more fun to play than the former in general, I'll take any visual disadvantage. Not to mention visual fidelity would be the last thing Phil Fish would be criticizing others for all things objectively considered.
What about the part where he was right about Japanese games being dog shit?
I've made zero games, and I can tell that Japanese games have been dog shit for a few years.
Once again, that's a highly subjective statement. There are bad Japanese games, there are bad American games, there are bad Canadian games, British games, French games... But developers in all of these countries also produce excellent games.
Why are you comparing each respective region's worst, and not their best? Pit the best american games against the best Japanese games, and it's not close. Japanese games STILL feel like Hi-Res PS2 games to me many times. Not always, but way more than 2012 should allow.
No matter the country, there are excellent games being produced. Whether those games are of your particular taste is another matter, and a subjective one at that.
No matter the country, there are excellent games being produced. Whether those games are of your particular taste is another matter, and a subjective one at that.
Aren't those statements in conflict or something? (Emphasis on the last two words.)
No matter the country, there are excellent games being produced. Whether those games are of your particular taste is another matter, and a subjective one at that.
Aren't those statements in conflict or something? (Emphasis on the last two words.)
Not really. One person's excellent game will always be another person's trash.
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