When Do you stop buying from a Specific Developer?

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vampire_chibi

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#1  Edited By vampire_chibi

Surely all of us have that one game that didn't turn out the way we wanted or was lacking in some way, basically buyer's remorse but when do you just boycott a developer?

Considering the recent events :

Basically he places a DMCA attack on PewDiePie because he used a racist word in a video while playing PUBG.

The DMCA is for a video made 2 years ago and they have already a statement on their website about Let's Plays and monitization for those videos; they gave the OK ages ago.

Obviously doing a retroactive takedown is a shitty thing to do but people are fighting back with boycotting the developer and all its future games.

This is ofcourse beyond buyer's remorse but when do you stop supporting a developer, even if they make games you might enjoy?

Personally i'd support they boycott as a retroactive DMCA is just plain shitty thing to do and not even related to a video that has your own game in it.

I know alot of people stopped buying Assassin's Creed games after Unity came out, have you ever been burned by a game so badly that you didn't want to support the developer anymore?

The biggest of such "burns" i'd gotten was from Fallout 4, i'm not boycotting Bethesda though but i'm defiantly not getting anymore of their games on Day 1.

I'm sure alot of people are going to have strong opinions one way or the other but let's keep it related to video games.

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deactivated-5b85a38d6c493

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People having imo shitty views. Like I wouldn't buy shit from that dude who is making The Last Night. I thought it looked cool but after learning all of the stuff surrounding it I'm not going to buy it because it wouldn't feel right.

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ATastySlurpee

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When they release Halo Reach & Destiny back to back

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CreepingDeath0

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I've a semi-related question for people that boycott developers that I've always wondered about. When do you stop boycotting them? When they get a new CEO? New publisher? When enough of their current development/writing team move on to different projects? Or just when they finally release a new game that interests you?

The idea of boycotting an entire company has always been a bit strange to me as it is usually over the comments of one member of the company, or one scummy deal with a publisher etc. Of course the other side of that coin is the idea of blindly supporting a developer on every project. Like how so many would flip their lids over the announcement of a new Half Life despite Valve barely having a writing department anymore.

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Jesus_Phish

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@vampire_chibi: If I had to stop buying things or enjoying things because of one or two shitty people in the creation process, half my music library would be impossible to listen to.

The same goes for video games.

And as for the DMCA - it's less that it had something to do with someone else's games and more the straw that broke the camels back. Campo Santo/Sean decided to do it because they don't want any association with PewDiePie and it's the easiest way for them to stop their products ending up on his channel.

This is basically their answer to your question. When does a developer stop letting someone advertise/profit off their games? When that someone repeatedly fucks up and exposes themselves to be either immature or a bad person.

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Joe_McCallister

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This doesn't really affect my thoughts on Firewatch or Campo Santo that much personally, but Jeff hit a nail on the head with PewDiePie during the Bombcast that I've applied to a few things recently - "Maybe that's just who he is". There was a point where I'd watch some PewDiePie stuff and find it a little funny but I was never fully bought in - the last controversy ~6 months ago was stupid, ridiculous, and completely his own fault - but he said he'd learn or whatever - either way I wasn't consuming any of his content in 2017 anyway. Well then he does this and it just kind of put the nail in the coffin and illustrated who the dude is.

If this were a game company repeatedly showing me that they're just slimy and gross without remorse or an empathetic effort at correcting, that's where the line gets drawn. There's that quote about "if someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time" - and while I tend to believe in second chances, there's some truth there. Your part about Bethesda/Fallout is a good one - because you've learned "well Bethesda doesn't put out a flawless product day one" and that is who they are to you (and arguably just who they are in general). For me, I love their product enough to get it day one but I know the risks and what will probably be there.

The only time I've actually been burned bad enough to stop buying hasn't really been a burn - it's more of a lack of iteration. Mass Effect Andromeda hurt pretty freaking bad - and has me cautious of any and all Bioware products going forward, Anthem included. I stopped buying Madden, The Show, FIFA, and Call of Duty every year because I just didn't see the benefit - I can get COD later (my rule is basically if Jeff has a lot of positivity on it like Advanced Warfare, it'll be good), and I can deal with buying a sports game either on sale, or on EA Access/Origin Access at a later date.

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IVDAMKE

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When they stop making good games/games I'm interested in.

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vampire_chibi

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#8  Edited By vampire_chibi

@creepingdeath0: I think it would require an "aha moment" similar to the one that started the boycott. Something made the boycott begin and something else will make it stop again, you'll know when it happens basically.

Otherwise, people might say that you don't want to support a developer until they apologizes or until someone steps down.

@jesus_phish: But they did it 2years AFTER the video of their game had been uploaded, retroactively taking down a video after you've already given the greenlight is just shitty.

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deactivated-987696

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When they release Halo Reach & Destiny back to back

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vampire_chibi

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@atastyslurpee: I'd say that i'm not boycotting Bungie but i do feel like they betrayed their old fans by firing Marty O’Donnell for no apparent reason. He did finish up a whole album for Destiny, i'd have loved to listen to it, now, nobody will.

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ZolRoyce

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#12  Edited By ZolRoyce

@ivdamke said:

When they stop making good games/games I'm interested in.

Same, I understand that sometimes people are put off by statements of game developers, or tactics used by them (mirco-transactions, aggressive pre-orders, etc.)
But all that really gets to me is if their games are good (to me) anymore. If yes, play, if no, do not play.

If we could suddenly see the true thoughts and behaviour of people behind the entertainment we like in every field of entertainment, there would be so many things you like that are created by someone, in part, who you just would not like. It's just not worth it to me to die on this hill. This is a fun hill of fun where games are fun and I enjoy having fun with them.

I would stop under extreme circumstances though, like "For every copy sold, we whip an employee and eat a puppy."

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Milkman

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#13  Edited By Milkman


Judging from your posts and what it looks your understanding of the topic is, I think I can say pretty confidently that whatever you've planned to say about it is best kept to yourself.

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Joe_McCallister

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@vampire_chibi: it's not about who is more racist than the other - it's not really a contest. It's just that I'm over the point in my life where I find dropping words like that edgy or funny just because he used it. The conversation on the bombcast was pretty good if you haven't had a chance to listen to it - they break down a time when Ryan had a moment, but expressed true remorse and said something along the lines of "context doesn't matter with a word that has the baggage associated with that word". I'm not saying that PewDiePie goes out and drops n-bombs or believes in his heart that white is right. I'm saying that he at the very surface thinks that using that word is ok - his mind went there in a reflexive moment so he thought either it'd be funny, or he uses that word in conversation/chat when just messing around with his buds. Fine for them - they can talk however they want, but like I said I'm a 31 year old white dude and though the word itself doesn't hold the baggage and gravity for me that it does for others, I get at least a piece of it, and I'm totally fine not being around that. If I had a buddy drop one in a game like PUBG, it wouldn't be silence - I'd come back with a "alright cool it, that's not alright". I'm not saying that his blurt there on the stream is sending me into "what a racist piece of shit" territory either - to me it just came across in a way that was illustrative that I've completely split from his style. That's not to say he or I don't both change taste/maturity/tolerance for any of that in the future, because who knows - tastes change.

The bombcast guys did point out something that I missed where Pewds drops the bomb, then calls the guy an asshole - which is a weird almost equivalence he's making - that's where it gets a little probing and could be looking too far into intent garnered from what was said, but it was a weird moment all around. The gist is, I wasn't watching him before, and after seeing his flippant use I probably won't - because that's not my speed. I watch and follow those that I identify with or enjoy, and if you're cool with it - solid.

Personally, if you think that addressing the American aversion to the word, feel free but I would hope that it'd be eloquent and a defensible argument and that if there's disagreement, it breeds respectful discussion - not just "why u so offended?". I'm always interested to hear other sides and uses, I've seen the iDubbz video and I think he does a decent job of explaining his view and use of the word - I just don't see the need to ever use that word. It might just be my age and surroundings showing through but I liken it to the fact that my dearest friends are gay, and if I were to use the words I used growing up that were "normal" in Iowa around them, I'd feel like a shitty person.

I get you on Fallout - I can see how it didn't really launch things forward especially the way FO3/NV did as well as Skyrim from the old ES games. I think I just looked past that, I actually liked Fallout quite a bit personally, it didn't have that same sense of awe and exploration that FO3 and NV did for me but I also am a bit older now so my interests in roaming the landscape to snipe Radscorpions is declining while my interest in the branching factions etc. is a little higher.

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Yoshisaur

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@vampire_chibi:

It's a hurtful racial slur. It's got a lot of baggage, in America yes, but not limited to it.

Also, I don't think anyone is implying PewDiePie is the most racist person, but by being so popular he has the attention of millions of people. I don't watch his stuff so I'm not trying to make a judgment call. But just from the headlines that show up, I really have no respect for him.

More on topic, I don't know that I've ever taken a hard stance on boycotting a game or developer. I understand why some may disagree with the Campo Santo move, but personally it doesn't bother me. If a developer pulled videos because of criticism of their game, I'd view it differently. Perhaps that is where this leads, but it's hard to be sure.

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AdamALC

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I don't boycott really. I don't agree with the politics or opinions of the vast majority of people whose content I consume but I don't think a person's personal stance on issues is relevant. It would take a special set of circumstances for me to write off an entire creative unit.

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Redhotchilimist

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#17  Edited By Redhotchilimist

"Support the developer" is such a... I don't buy things to support someone, I buy them because I want them. If it's a game I really want I'm not gonna stop buying it until the developer is directly funding nazis or something equally bonkers. On the other side I'm not gonna buy someone's game just because the developer is nice.

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Deathstriker

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I have to question the taste of anyone who liked PewDiePie to begin with... that's like saying Two and a Half Men or Big Bang Theory is hilarious (gross). So I had no respect for him to begin with and even less so now after the stuff with Jews and now black people. The N word is not an American only thing and it's always odd to me when people try to pass off racist history or the slave trade as some American situation when it's Europe who started it, had slaves brought there too, and stole the whole continent. I have no problem with what the Firewatch dev is doing, I wouldn't want someone with so much power like idiotic PewDiePie to go unchallenged for such terrible behavior.

As for the question in the thread's title, I often look at a game individually based upon their footage, reviews, concepts, etc not entirely or mostly by their dev, since studios are so big they could have an internal a team, b team, c team, and so on. Of course, if it is from someone I like (Naughty Dog, Rockstar, etc) I pay more attention to that game.

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Axersia

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I've got a few ongoing boycotts. If by buying a game, I'm indirectly funding causes I strongly disagree with, that's an easy one right there. Not that I investigate the devs of every game and check their political affiliations on Facebook, but occasionally they'll do the work for me by being an outspoken public figure.

In other cases someone just rubbed me the wrong way.

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zombievac

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#20  Edited By zombievac

Boy this whole thread is just sad, aside from a couple comments.

If you want to curb or help stop racism, you really have to have an understanding of what "racist" really is, and who a racist person really is. Then concentrate your efforts on people who are actually actively and damagingly racist - and then kindly, and respectfully, find out why they have those views in an open an respectful manner. Then they'll probably eventually start to respect you back (that's how kindness works - when you are even kind & respectful to those who you might be inclined to feel don't deserve it, and maybe aren't currently either of those things, yet, to you, do it anyway. Because you don't know them and their situation well enough to understand why they are who they are, and they will never respect your opinions, and eventually even agree with them, if they don't respect you first). Which is why starting out with directly attacking people for the most minor, inconsequential crap is the WORST way to go about making this sort of change.

I encourage everyone to give this guy a look into (and watch the great documentary about him - last I knew it was on Netflix), he is an amazing person and truly understands people, their motivations, and especially, EMPATHY!

http://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes

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SuperUltra

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Campo Santo is pretty easy for me to boycott since I never had any interest in Firewatch anyway. Even then, it's not like I will *never ever* play another Campo Santo game in the future. It's not that difficult for me to enjoy products from shitty people/companies. For example, Steve Jobs was a complete asshole, but here I am typing this message on a MacBook Pro.

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chaser324

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#22  Edited By chaser324  Moderator

I only have one publisher totally blacklisted, and it's exclusively due to behind the scenes business reasons. I want to play some of their games, but I refuse to ever give them a dime because they tried to pull some dishonest and unethical stuff in my dealings with them.

I probably would boycott a developer on the basis of them supporting some particularly awful political viewpoint or business practice, but I guess I've yet to run into that particular situation.

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SpaceInsomniac

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#23  Edited By SpaceInsomniac

@zombievac said:

Boy this whole thread is just sad, aside from a couple comments.

If you want to curb or help stop racism, you really have to have an understanding of what "racist" really is, and who a racist person really is. Then concentrate your efforts on people who are actually actively and damagingly racist - and then kindly, and respectfully, find out why they have those views in an open an respectful manner. Then they'll probably eventually start to respect you back (that's how kindness works - when you are even kind & respectful to those who you might be inclined to feel don't deserve it, and maybe aren't currently either of those things, yet, to you, do it anyway. Because you don't know them and their situation well enough to understand why they are who they are, and they will never respect your opinions, and eventually even agree with them, if they don't respect you first). Which is why starting out with directly attacking people for the most minor, inconsequential crap is the WORST way to go about making this sort of change.

I encourage everyone to give this guy a look into (and watch the great documentary about him - last I knew it was on Netflix), he is an amazing person and truly understands people, their motivations, and especially, EMPATHY!

http://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes

First of all, I love the story you posted. While I believe an appeal to importance to be a logical fallacy--don't worry about this smaller racist outburst when there are much worse examples of racism--I still understand where you're coming from.

I'll also challenge any non-racist person in this thread (hopefully that should be pretty much everyone) to ask yourself this. What deeply held social belief do you have where you could be persuaded to change your mind by people calling you a piece of shit, telling you that you're wrong, and telling you to go fuck yourself.

You can't fight racism with more hate. It might feel good in the moment, but you'll never change anyone's mind. You fight racism with logic, with empathy, and by pointing out hypocrisy. But you have to do it respectfully, or nothing you say will get through.

Rather than hating someone for their fucked up feelings on race, have pity for them and the fact that someone in their life led them to that line of thought, and then challenge it. Or make yourself feel better by calling them human garbage, and you change nothing.

As for the topic, when my dislike of a developer outweighs my like of their product. It's pretty rare, but has happened a couple of time with PS Plus offerings that I didn't add to my account (which a developer does get paid for). Then again, every company is a rather large assortment of people, so boycotting any developer is kind of a situation of not supporting many unintentionally to avoid supporting one person specifically. I dislike Randy Pitchford for a number of reasons, but I'm sure plenty of good people work at Gearbox, for example.

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deactivated-5b85a38d6c493

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@zombievac: That's noble of you, but I personally have no desire and never had any desire to try and change how somebody thinks. I will argue a person and will call a person garbage if I think he/she deserves it. Never will I take the time out of my day to try and get into understanding a persons mindset in order to try and change it. I just have never felt it is on me to try and change another person. Never.

That's definitely respectable of you to try and do though.

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MrPlatitude

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#25  Edited By MrPlatitude

Some action needed to be taken against Pewdipie for sure, dude is a garbage person. But the takedown maybe wasn't the best idea for the precedent it sets (due to the already legal gray area of lets play type videos, GB's quick looks included) and Campo Santo should have considered that more. I don't know what a better solution would be but it feels like there should have been another way.

On the subject of boycotts, this wouldn't make me want to boycott Campo Santo. I think they may not have made the best decision but I admire them for wanting to take some kind of a stand on this awful behavior.

Mass Effect Andromeda hurt pretty freaking bad - and has me cautious of any and all Bioware products going forward, Anthem included.

Bioware is the only boycott I'm currently considering for the same reason.

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BabyChooChoo

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#27  Edited By BabyChooChoo

A developer or publisher would have to do some truly heinous shit to make me blacklist them in their entirety. I think I'd rather say that I blacklist specific business practices and as is often the case, if those shitty practices are found in one game released by a specific developer or publisher, they're probably found in more, if not all of their games.

For example, a lot of mobile developers put goddamn energy/stamina meters into every single thing they put out. I hate those kinds of meters, so I don't buy those kinds of games. However, if one of those same developers released a game with none of that, I would be willing to check that game out.

Lootboxes are quickly becoming one of those things I refuse to support or even glance in the direction of. Oh, your game has lootboxes? Fuck you then, I'll go play something else. I realize the problem with that stance is that more and more games are doing it and my options, specifically with multiplayer games, will be more and more limited, but it's a sacrifice i'm willing to make. I've said it before, but I think lootboxes are 9 times outta 10 really predatory and gross even if it's just cosmetics.

And while we're at it, I fucking hate the "y u so mad, bruh? it's just cosmetics" excuse. Aesthetics are very important to some of us and yes, not having them can in fact ruin my enjoyment of something. If I want a skin or whatever for my favorite character, but I'm repeatedly denied access not for want of trying, but because I'm simply unlucky or not as rich as someone dropping hundreds if not thousands of dollars on your game, then yeah I'm gonna be pretty pissed. If it's just cosmetics, then fine, developers, let us disable all custom cosmetics so we're not subject to see all the shiny shit everyone else is wearing. But no, of course none of them want to fucking do that. They want us to see our teammates and enemies decked out in all that cool shit because they want us to want it too. And if the idea of simply playing and hoping for the best doesn't serve as sufficient motivation, they want us to gamble away our fucking hard-earned money for the mere chance of getting what we want.

Just...fuck everything about that. Sorry, I realize I got off topic a bit, but ya know, shit happens.

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mems1224

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When they turn to really gross anti-consumer practices. Bungie, for example. They used to be my favorite developer by far but after the first Destiny I'll never buy something from them new. They just gross me out now.

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mellotronrules

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meh, this dmca business doesn't really move the needle one way or another for me- and that's for a few reasons.

1) i'm not a video game content creator, so i don't feel particularly wronged if a copyright holder decides to exercise that right.

2) i have some familiarity with sean from his dealings with idle thumbs, and honestly the guy seems like a stand-up dude. given the context for his actions, i can't say i blame him- even if it was swinging a club instead of a surgical excision.

3) i really don't think this will have a chilling effect- i mean the perp used a racial epithet- that shit doesn't fly in 2017. if a brand wants to distance itself in a meaningful way, this is one (albeit crude) way of doing it.

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AlexW00d

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@vampire_chibi said:

Obviously doing a retroactive takedown is a shitty thing to do

How so? This is such a idiotic thing to say I can only assume you are trolling.

It achieves nothing except for Campo Santo attaching their name to this ridiculous ordeal to get their name out there again.

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TheHT

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#31  Edited By TheHT

When they stop making games that interest me.

Or, okay, if they did like murderous evil shit. Sure.

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BladeOfCreation

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Honestly, I don't do "boycotts" really. There are definitely some developers that have an attitude that makes me not want to engage with their art, but that's in the case of particularly snobbish "auteurs" (think Jonathan Blow). I don't buy games depicting modern war, but it's a strong preference rather than what I would consider a boycott.

I suppose it would be hypocritical of me to say that I won't buy any CampoSanto games when there are plenty of other companies that are also guilty of what I would consider to be egregious or unfair uses of the DMCA. At the same time, this particular situation rubs me the wrong way in a way that goes beyond simply a copyright holder being a jerk. I am human. I have contradicting views sometimes.

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Pezen

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When their games are bad. I can certainly have opinions about actions developers might take, but I also know I have tech and clothing that is probably produced in less than ideal working environments for less than idea wages. I sometimes feel like it would be weird hypocricy to boycott a developer when I can't even be bothered to make moral choices in my other consumtions to such a severe degree.

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GERALTITUDE

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It's weird to me to have any sort of feelings vs a "developer" when generally what you are talking about is a name on a building or piece of paper. Most all of the employees come and go, so what is a developer to you?

If you mean individuals...

Well, I guess, if there was an individual developer whose games I was interested in, but was fundamentally offensive to me, I just wouldn't play those games. But, I wouldn't damn a team of developers for 1 of their members, necessarily. Situation matters a lot.

Let's consider your example.

Sean Vanaman is a developer. But he is NOT who you are talking about in your question. You are talking about Campo Santo. So now I have to wonder: does everyone at Campo Santo agree with Sean Vanaman? and to what extent? How many people work there, and what are their skills? Could they potentially make a game that interests me in the future? What does that have to do with Sean Vanaman's decision, as the president of that company, to take legal action vs a Let's Play. What if the 2nd-in-command at Campo Santo is just about to design the greatest Roguelike-lite WalkNTalk you've ever seen? Who am I trying to punish? This person who is the 2nd-in-command just for working for Vanaman? Basically, because I boycott Vanaman, I have to boycott all these other unrelated efforts? What is the end goal here? To hope Vanaman is so poisoned no one ever wants to work with him? I don't get it.

Boycotting, to me, at least in this context, is largely hard to understand, because what you are boycotting in this situation is liquid. If Vanaman leaves Campo Santo next week, would you buy their games again?

I understand people want to "speak with their wallets" but I wonder sometimes if this attitude is the best approach. Campo Santo is small enough, let's try a bigger developer. If Konami is a piece of shit (big if) do all the teams and all their employees "deserve" to suffer because of that? Should you boycot the games of a team that is not in any way related to decision makers? Or perhaps related to the team that "dropped the ball"?

Guess I'm in a really long-winded mood today. But yeah, this is why I don't consider boycotting developers. It just doesn't make sense to me. Not buy a game? Boycott an individual game? I can feel that. Can't go much further though.

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@joe_mccallister: "Maybe that's just who he is", are you saying PewDiePie is racist? Because i can tell you about people that are far more "racist" than him and those are just the average gamer in online multiplayer games.

There's a huge difference between random people over voice chat, and someone who is watched and idolized by millions of people every day. People who are young and impressionable, and look to their idols for a moral compass, whether it's intentional or not.

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deactivated-5a00c029ab7c1

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Activision for ruining and dumbing down the first person shooter genre since 4.

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Brackstone

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The thing with the Campo Santo DMCA is that it's definitely very stupid, ineffective and potentially illegal, but they were close to doing the right thing. Simply no longer allowing Pewdiepie to make lps of their future games would have been just as effective and 100% within their right. They overstepped their bounds and deserve criticism for it, but this isn't something to boycott over to me.

In other cases, it's less that something crosses the line and I say "that's it, no more!" and more a case of slowly not being interested anymore. It's what happened with Halo. Loved 1-3, and even ODST, but Reach was meh, and nothing about 4 looked like it was what I want out of Halo. I never really boycott something, I just stop caring.

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deactivated-5e851fc84effd

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When I don't want the game/s they make.

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gunflame88

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Randy Pitchford won't see my money until he swallows his pride and admits what a huge bait and switch Colonial Marines was. Worst purchase of my life.

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OurSin_360

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#41  Edited By OurSin_360

Eh, probably change the thread title because it is misleading since this is just an attack on one developer.

Personally, i have no problem with it. It's their game and if they don't want somebody who's values are contrary to their own to make money off of/or be associated at all with their game, more power to them. Don't be shitty and maybe shitty things won't happen to you? Sure you could go down the slippery slope of how this could kill youtube and twitch, but it won't because there is too much free advertising to be had. If an indie developer/publisher is willing to forgo that free publicity to make a statement to something they believe in, good on em. Most probably wouldn't give a shit either way.

And if the thread title is actually meant to spark discussion beyond this one issue, I guess i stopped playing nintendo games when they stopped supporting third party and purposefully made their products scarce. (gamecube was my last nintendo console). The switch is looking mighty good though.

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Rebel_Scum

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I don't. If a game is good and I want it I get it. You have to separate the creation from the creator imo.

I listen to Michael Jackson because his songs are great, but he's an accused pedo who never saw a trial for the allegations against him. Same with Charles Manson, his music is great too but he's a convicted murderer. For both of these artists they've released music I didn't like too, but it doesn't stop me from digging the one's I do like.

To each his own on this, but I disagree with this notion to refuse the art of someone who's ideas or actions you disagree with. Only a Sith deals in absolutes. ;)

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@rebel_scum: I have no problem with someone who chooses to enjoy an artists content despite his or her's views/actions, I actually respect it in a way because I have a hard time doing it, but I have never heard someone claim Charles Manson's music as being particularly good. it's not terrible but, to me it sounds pretty generic.

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matatat

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This is more a comment on the thread as a whole but it seems deceiving to lead with a topic question and then in the first few sentences go off on something that seems largely unrelated. Maybe I'm missing something here. Are you trying to equate developers boycotting a YouTuber through the use of legal action vs a user boycotting a developer?

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Slag

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Well I certainly wouldn't hold it against a dev who takes action to protect their brand from a guy who trivializes Nazis and uses hard R as a casual insult, even if maybe they didn't pick the right tactic to address it. The incredibly immature backlash Campo Santo has received on their Steam forums has been telling.

95% of what I buy is determined by my perception the underlying quality of the product.

Other than that I wouldn't hold it against a dev who has difficult political views than I do, but if they actively participate in hate movements or harassment of others that's a hard pass on any of their products for me. And that wouldn't be determined by if they have a rogue employee or something but if that position was something tolerated or encouraged by senior leadership.

The other "instant no buy criteria" is if I think they are dishonest or cheats. There's not many, but there's a few out there.

I also didn't buy Luftrausers because I thought the game glorified the Nazi aesthetic and that made me personally very uncomfortable, but I don't hold it against Vlambeer's other games.

If you don't want to buy Campo Santo games because you think they abused the spirit of a DMCA takedown, that's your prerogative. I get why you'd think it's abusive. And against virtually anybody else I'd probably feel the same but I find it hard to fault them when their target is somebody who is teaching little kids that Bigotry is harmless joke.

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ArbitraryWater

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It takes a lot for me to straight up drop a developer, it turns out. I still bought and played through Mass Effect Andromeda despite the last 3 single-player Bioware RPGs all being some variety of disappointing, and I'll probably still end up checking out whatever Bethesda makes next despite the part where I've spent a decreasing amount of time with each of their successive games (and I straight up disliked Fallout 4 by the time I was done with it.)

I've never felt like I had to "blacklist" a developer because of outside issues (ethical or otherwise) but I wouldn't rule it out. I'm not going to pretend I haven't felt less inclined to play a game because of the people doing front-facing PR.

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MrWakka

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When they stop making good games.

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Rebel_Scum

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@boonsong said:

@rebel_scum: I have no problem with someone who chooses to enjoy an artists content despite his or her's views/actions, I actually respect it in a way because I have a hard time doing it, but I have never heard someone claim Charles Manson's music as being particularly good. it's not terrible but, to me it sounds pretty generic.

It's different I'll put it that way.

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GrayFox666

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who here watches Roman Polanski movies? It all comes down to can you separate the art from the artist. In most cases I can if that art is fantastic.

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devise22

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@zombievac said:

Boy this whole thread is just sad, aside from a couple comments.

If you want to curb or help stop racism, you really have to have an understanding of what "racist" really is, and who a racist person really is. Then concentrate your efforts on people who are actually actively and damagingly racist - and then kindly, and respectfully, find out why they have those views in an open an respectful manner. Then they'll probably eventually start to respect you back (that's how kindness works - when you are even kind & respectful to those who you might be inclined to feel don't deserve it, and maybe aren't currently either of those things, yet, to you, do it anyway. Because you don't know them and their situation well enough to understand why they are who they are, and they will never respect your opinions, and eventually even agree with them, if they don't respect you first). Which is why starting out with directly attacking people for the most minor, inconsequential crap is the WORST way to go about making this sort of change.

I encourage everyone to give this guy a look into (and watch the great documentary about him - last I knew it was on Netflix), he is an amazing person and truly understands people, their motivations, and especially, EMPATHY!

http://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes

First of all, I love the story you posted. While I believe an appeal to importance to be a logical fallacy--don't worry about this smaller racist outburst when there are much worse examples of racism--I still understand where you're coming from.

I'll also challenge any non-racist person in this thread (hopefully that should be pretty much everyone) to ask yourself this. What deeply held social belief do you have where you could be persuaded to change your mind by people calling you a piece of shit, telling you that you're wrong, and telling you to go fuck yourself.

You can't fight racism with more hate. It might feel good in the moment, but you'll never change anyone's mind. You fight racism with logic, with empathy, and by pointing out hypocrisy. But you have to do it respectfully, or nothing you say will get through.

Rather than hating someone for their fucked up feelings on race, have pity for them and the fact that someone in their life led them to that line of thought, and then challenge it. Or make yourself feel better by calling them human garbage, and you change nothing.

As for the topic, when my dislike of a developer outweighs my like of their product. It's pretty rare, but has happened a couple of time with PS Plus offerings that I didn't add to my account (which a developer does get paid for). Then again, every company is a rather large assortment of people, so boycotting any developer is kind of a situation of not supporting many unintentionally to avoid supporting one person specifically. I dislike Randy Pitchford for a number of reasons, but I'm sure plenty of good people work at Gearbox, for example.

A couple of pretty solid posts here imo. It's my one issue with the SJW crowd, and to a degree the idea that you'd boycott something based on the actions of an individual. Not unless those actions actually affect the value and character of the product it's associated with. Which is why the Campos Santos thing is pretty, honestly disgusting. It's opening up the door for any developers to just pull content on Youtube because they disagree with anything the Youtuber said period. Can you imagine critically talking negative about a game and then the dev just decides to pull that content from specific people? At what point is all of this then nothing but being bought, which it was already heading down already.

Anyway as these posts lay out though, the hate vs hate stuff is just baffling. I totally agree, and don't understand it myself. The message isn't more important than the tactics, ever. And if your tactics are hate and attacks, all your going to get is resentment and resistance. It's called reality. The problem is you can't challenge someones viewpoint anymore without being accused of trying to justify or defend someone else actions. What Pedewpie did for example was clearly wrong. Whether he agrees with how loaded the word is, or how casual it should be allowed to be us is irrelevant to as many people have also stated in this thread the size of his viewership. His stream time due to the exposure cannot just be treated as his normal time. He has to treat that like he's in public. But that is pretty much where this stuff ends for me. I understand the need to censor specific words/language in a public or overly large setting, such as a stream. That is just about decency and respect. But what always gets me is the people you see state that they want to try and create a world where these words are never used. Putting aside the freedom of speech angle, that simply isn't a realistic expectation. Look at the war on drugs, the war on terror, or even parents with kids. The more you tell people they can't do something they more they are simply going to do it to spite you. Regardless if they agree with it or not. It's just a byproduct of people. As stated in the second quoted post, you fight these issues with logic and empathy, not with the tactics of the extremists your fighting in the first place.

There just seems to be some sort of push by a decent number of people trying to make every issue into some pseudo racial political problem. And you have to choose sides of course, because I can't count the number of times I've seen people post ridiculous statements like "history will show you on the losing side of this." Do you people realize your talking about the use of words? Then again people these days seem to be looking for any excuse to try to cause divide and latch onto sides based on passionate beliefs. I mean even in this thread earlier we had a post for someone who literally said, in fact let me find the quote...

"I have to question the taste of anyone who liked PewDiePie to begin with... that's like saying Two and a Half Men or Big Bang Theory is hilarious (gross)."

So the moment we hear someone likes something we don't like (I actively dislike both of those shows as well) means they are no longer deserving of any human respect or decency? I hate to use the word entitled, but to me this is the type of stuff that is an insult to the sacrifices people who were in REAL conflict made for us. Instead we are getting overly petty and mobbing and losing respect for each other because of a stupid show they may watch, or a word they may let slip out, or a mistake they might of made that in the grand scheme of things has no effect on anyone. For the record I'm not stating racism isn't an issue, it obviously is. But the lack of perspective that people these days show, to their own lives and how well we have it and then they go and continually inflate and push these very, in the grand scheme of things, small issues. Ultimately reminds me there aren't two sides to wars, especially not conflicts like these. As far as I'm concerned you have crazy extremists on both sides, who are looking for excuses to justify any horrible actions, and then you have those stuck in the middle trying to use empathy to actually progress and grow things instead of just hate.