Why does giantbomb crew always hate sonic so much?

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Topcyclist

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I get the fans of GB hate him as well. But overall it's starting to get vitriolic. Like, dan and jeff had some sonic games on their GOTY list. They laughed at the worst episodes of sonic boom. It feels like the old mario vs sonic years. And lets face it...sonic 1 vs mario 1 at the time, sonic was better looking and appealing with more varied levels and music plus graphics. So i get why people into mario at that age would hate sonic. Then you have the sonic "edge" which isnt really a thing anymore but people push things that they remember so i get it. Something was bad one day, so it's always bad.

My point is, GB learned to like some jrpgs, they learned to like anime, they learned to like even fortnite. So can they learn to like sonic.

Caveat: Sonic i know is not mindblowingly good. It's not great, or the best or above average. It's a fine or okay game to play on paper reviewed, all of them. I do not think they should like every game or sonic.

But on paper today...Mario 64 is bad but IMO its still good.

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AV_Gamer

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#2  Edited By AV_Gamer

The whole "Sonic sucks" thing is really a meme. Like how a lot of people claim to hate Anime, but these same people are low key watching it. The same with the Sonic franchise. Now granted, majority of the 3D games aren't good. But when you have people claiming the original 16-bit games are also bad, they are just trolling for the most part. The original Sonic the Hedgehog was ground breaking in every way and is a genuine classic. It was a superior game to Super Mario Bros. Sonic 2 and 3 are just as great. And the funny thing about Mario games, is people act like they are perfect games, but there not. Some of the games have spotty jumping mechanics. Some have troublesome camera issues to name a few. However, the overall games are still good. The same with Sonic when it comes to the 16-bit games.

One good example of the meme, is Sonic Frontiers which is genuinely a decent 3D Sonic game, perhaps the first one. Yet people refuse to give the game its props, because the narrative that "Sonic sucks" must be maintained. Even Jeff G was close admitting Frontiers was okay, but couldn't bring himself to do it.

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bigsocrates

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#3 bigsocrates  Online

People hate Sonic because of 3 reasons.

1) The games are wildly inconsistent and basically always unpolished. There are good ones and bad ones and ones that are complete and utter garbage. A lot of Sonic hate congealed in the mid to late 2000s when they put out the utterly broken Sonic '06 and two autorunners on Wii. Then they followed that up with Sonic Unleashed, which isn't a terrible game but for some reason has very mediocre God of War combat in a Sonic game. Even good Sonic games are often internally inconsistent, like Sonic Adventure, which was great at the time playing as Sonic or Tails but then shoehorned in like Big the Cat, which was janky and slow and bad.

2) The fanbase is very toxic and weird. From all the weird slash fiction stuff to the crazy infighting. It turns a lot of people off.

3) Sonic himself is a tryhard character. I don't personally dislike him but a lot of people see him as the epitome of corporate focus tested "cool," which in many ways he is.

I personally like Sonic okay, but you can't actually compare him to Mario. Mario has a slew of classic ground breaking titles. Mario titles made by Nintendo are basically all polished and reach a certain level of quality (excluding weird spinoffs like Mario is Missing or whatever.) I like Sonic Frontiers and like it more than some Mario games like Super Mario Bros. U Deluxe, but the idea that Jeff soured on it because he couldn't bring himself to admit Sonic is good is laughable.

Sonic Frontiers is a mess! From the bonkers aesthetic with blue hedgehogs in a "realistic" world except with floating rails and stuff, to the very annoying camera to the broken pop in on 9th gen consoles Sonic Frontiers is sometimes more jank than video game. And this is coming from a fan of the game. I finished it! I went back to my old save and turned on hard mode to face the absolutely insane true final boss who makes zero sense in a Sonic game. But no Mario game would EVER ship in such a busted state. You can argue that's part of Sonic's charm, that it can always surprise you and do totally off the wall things that normal franchises wouldn't attempt, but it's pretty obvious why some people don't like it. Especially if they remember the dark days of Sonic '06.

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GTxForza

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#4  Edited By GTxForza

To me, it seems the Giant Bomb crew personally don't like Sonic these days as they think the franchise's current gameplay style feels odd compared to the older generation installments.

Here are my personal thoughts on Sonic and furries in general:
I got sick of them when I was 18-19 years old, as I don't like this concept and appearance so this is the main reason why I don't like Sonic and all furries/anthropomorphic animals (No matter what's their story role) these days, so I always much prefer humans more than furries because of their appearance, but I do know which characters are innocent or not, regardless of their species, race, etc.

My examples of human-to-furry comparison (Apples to oranges):
If I compare the two different fictional pilots, Kirie from The Magnificent Kotobuki anime and Miles "Tails" Prower from the Sonic series, I'd definitely much prefer Kirie because I find her to look cuter and have a more interesting personality to me.

While I compare the two different fictional mechanics, Dominic Toretto from the Fast & Furious series and Donatello from the TMNT series, I much prefer Dominic Toretto as I find him to look more handsome and passionate about cars.

Sidenote: In the Girls und Panzer series, I'm aware there are some characters like Miho Nishizumi, she still likes teddy bears but I do not want to judge them for that.

@bigsocrates: I totally agree with your thoughts on the 2nd main point, we have to stay away from that toxic fanbase, just like how I'm avoiding the toxic Super Smash Bros and PlayStation fanbase for good.

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styx971

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does the crew actually hate him even? i've always gotten the impression that they don't so much as they see the franchises flaws in a ton of ways n just like to rag on it most the time as a goof. i can understand it getting old i guess since everyone seems to do it , but its not like those games don't earn it when half of them are broken as fuck and control like ass ( i was a genesis kid growing up , finding those wii games n the 360 demo for 06 was heartbreaking). couple that which storytelling in alot of these being pretty rough as well n well.. its hard to not say the games don't earn it...but i still just think they mostly rag on the series as a goof, specially when they talked so highly about frontiers which idk , i 'aquired' a copy to try and uninstalled it after feeling how bad it controlled in that tutorial level

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hughj

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And lets face it...sonic 1 vs mario 1 at the time, sonic was better looking and appealing with more varied levels and music plus graphics. So i get why people into mario at that age would hate sonic.

The comparison was Sonic1 vs. SMW as that was the SNES pack-in title and what Sega chose to showcase in the famous TV ads in 1991. Sonic1 was a fine platformer and a great brand mascot, but even by the time Sonic2 arrived SMW was old news so no one was framing the Sega vs. Nintendo debate in those terms. The culture by 1992 was preoccupied with Street Fighter 2 on the SNES, while Sega was beginning to align their brand with sports franchises. The big story of 1993 was the MK1 ports.

The Sonic vs. Mario thing was, at best, a ~6 month microcosm of the "console wars" in the months following the SNES NA launch. The "hate" was, and is, overstated. Chalk it up to games media personalities giving exaggerated hot-takes for effect. Sonic wasn't and isn't relevant enough to feel that strongly about.

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dooz

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Sonic is a niche franchise, now. They don't like Dynasty Warriors, either. Sonic is niche anymore because the quality hasn't been high for a long time and the tone is just weird. Same with Dynasty Warriors. But they still have their dedicated fanbases that will refuse to accept that there are issues with those franchises that the developers never really fix, despite the enjoyment that said fans have for them. After a while, it becomes sort of a running joke.

As a fan of Dynasty Warriors, I recognize that they often have real problems, and I do not blame people for making fun of them. Dynasty Warriors 9: Empires is half-baked trash. It is what it is.

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bigsocrates

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#8 bigsocrates  Online

@dooz: Sonic Frontiers sold 2.5 million copies. That's not a mega best seller, obviously, but it's not niche. It's Pikmin level.

Dynasty warriors 9 sold like 280,000.

To put it in perspective 2.5 million would put it in the top 50 all time for the Switch (obviously Sonic Frontiers is a multi-plat so it's a little apples to oranges in comparison) so unless you want to claim that basically all games outside the top 20 are niche, it's not a niche title.

Of course Mario Odyssey has sold 10 times as much while being on only 1 platform, so if you want to say it's niche compared to Mario that's fair.

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styx971

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@bigsocrates: idk i kinda get what hes saying about dynasty warriors being niche , before they started doing the bigger franchise tie-in games they (musou games in general) were alot less talked about, that said i love me some musou games.

that said i would agree i don't think sonic is niche , i do agree that like dw its a running joke type of series tho

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SethMode

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#10  Edited By SethMode

@bigsocrates: It's weird because I don't have much interest in video game sales (not because it isn't interesting, just illustrating that I am very uninformed on the topic), and if you told me Sonic sold at least in the Mario ballpark I would 100% have believed you. Sonic *feels* just as ubiquitous to me as Mario, because everyone younger in my life from students to family members to friend's kids all know Sonic, love Sonic, love the Sonic movies, and want every Sonic game. I was actually kind of shocked Frontiers ONLY sold 2.5 million copies.

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Y2Ken

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Obviously this is personal taste, but I'm not super into Mario or Sonic, but I get Mario more.

I like Sonic as a character, and I think a lot of those games have great art direction and phenomenal music. I don't think any of them work that well on a gameplay level, at least for an average player. They're games where the goal is to go fast, but that's not really a viable strategy when you first play them. You either take it slow and careful, which the game isn't built for, or you go fast and end up basically being pinged around with little control or smashing into enemies and hazards.

If you play a bunch and you learn the levels, you can do cool stuff, but that's a big investment. They're almost like speedrunning games, but ones that are kinda clunky to play normally before you learn them inside-out. I gave Sonic Mania a fair shake, and it's slightly better structured than some of the others, but it still falls foul of those same issues. I feel like the game wants me to go full-tilt, but punishes me when I do (or takes control out of my hands to do a cool thing while I'm basically holding one direction).

They're kinda clunky games wrapped in fantastic presentation. Again, personal taste, but I can understand the appeal of Mario on a gameplay level despite not really being into it myself, whereas Sonic I only really get if you're super committed to just going all-in on learning it back to front (at which point it does look quite cool).

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Dareitus

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I finished Frontiers with 100% map completion and (most) 2D challenges completed, it was fine but this narrative that Frontiers isn't getting its due is kinda blown out. It wasn't a good game, it was passable at best and really only impressive because the bar for 3D Sonic games is so dang low.

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#14  Edited By dooz

@bigsocrates It's possible that Frontiers is the first step to change that. Frontiers sold roughly double its predecessors. But for a long time, it was under-performing when compared to its predecessors.

BTW what number makes a game not niche? DW9 had 730,000 units. Dynasty Warriors 4 sold 2.5 mil. Warriors Orochi sold 2.9 mil. Samurai Warriors 8 mil. https://www.vgchartz.com/game/226374/dynasty-warriors/

Samurai Warriors did better than a lot of main-line Sonic games. https://vgsales.fandom.com/wiki/Sonic

Does that make the Warriors games not niche as well? Define niche.

The comparison between the two games is accurate, though. Both were popular, then went through a period with a lack of wise innovation, and both have dedicated fanbases, though Sonic's is indeed more popular.

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bigsocrates

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#15 bigsocrates  Online

@dooz: I don't have a clear cut off in mind. I think the Warriors games definitely were not niche when they were selling millions of units but have become more niche over time (though some of the other Musou games like Hyrule Warriors are not niche.) I think that basically anything that would be in the top 100 games on a major platform can't really be considered niche unless it has a very dedicated fanbase and no appeal outside that fanbase whatsoever.

It's clearly never going to be a bright line but Sonic Frontiers sold well, as did Sonic Forces over time (and with steep discounts) and Sonic continues to be a major property. I mean he just had 2 major motion pictures made about him, he has new TV shows coming out, he's very well known in the current culture. I mean Sonic 2 was the 12th best performing movie worldwide last year. If that's niche then basically everything is niche.

@sethmode: You must live in Sonic country! I think that the movies have done a lot to make him more popular. It's also fair that Frontiers will continue selling over time and that Odyssey had 5 more years to rack up numbers so the final count may be a bit closer. But I think in terms of video games Mario has long left Sonic in the dust. If you look at the numbers for Mario Kart 8 they are absolutely bonkers.

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BladeOfCreation

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I think this is the difference between liking aspects of a thing, and being a fan of a thing. I like some anime, but I also dislike certain ubiquitous tropes in anime so much that I do not consider myself a fan of anime in general. I feel like I'm reaching--or have reached--that point with Star Wars.

There's enough Sonic stuff out there to enjoy, but if you enjoy less than half of a given franchise and you think the newest stuff is middling at best, are you still a fan? I don't know. I don't write the dictionary. What are words?

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#17 bigsocrates  Online

@bladeofcreation: I think that you decide whether you're a fan of something or not. Do you overall like it or seek it out or is it just something you'll passively check out from time to time because you might like it? There's lots of stuff that I enjoy sometimes but wouldn't call myself a fan of. Like Street Fighter. I bought the Street Fighter anniversary collection and I'll play a few rounds of Alpha or SF 3 against the computer or a friend but I'm not a fan per se. I'm still open to Street Fighter 6 if it seems good. Of course you can also be a fan of something without liking all of it, so it's just sort of a self identification thing.

@dareitus I think it's funny that the people who are annoyed about all the Sonic bashing are generally people who haven't played Frontiers while those of us who finished it are like "yeah, their issues check out." Like, again, I like Sonic Frontiers, I had a good time with it, but anyone who thinks there aren't a lot of issues with that game...Chaos Island is legitimately horrible to navigate with the pop in making a lot of the routes really hard to find and not noted on the map. And this is a 3D platformer where the true final boss is an Ikaruga style shmup level! That alone is pretty indefensible.

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thatpinguino

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#18 thatpinguino  Staff

I don't know what to tell folks. Sonic games range from bad to okay. The last universally loved Sonic game was released almost 30 years ago. What should the stance be with a series that basically churns out 4.0-7.0 games every few years with art and story reboots almost every time? The response to Frontiers seems to be "they almost made it so you can control Sonic in a 3D space." We're 20 years into 3D sonic games and he's barely been controllable for almost that entire time.

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Undeadpool

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If you can't enjoy something without seeing its flaws, I'm not sure you can say you're 'enjoying' it as much as you're beholden to it. You've attached your ego to it, and that's where you get into weird "console war" anti-logic. That's the difference between being a fan and a 'fanboi' (or whatever title the kids say these days). I think "Mad Max: Fury Road" is one of the greatest movies ever made, but it has a terrible day-for-night sequence that stands out amidst how great it is. Does noticing that mean I'm "less" of a fan than people who say it's perfect on every level? No.

In that same way: Sonic games have a LONG history of mediocre-to-bad titles, and even the good ones often have glaring flaws.

And I don't mean to say 'proper' fans in that gatekeepery bullshit way, I'm trying to separate enjoying something for yourself, and expecting others to share your same enjoyment. I don't care if you enjoy Sonic on whatever level, but if you expect me to enjoy it that same way? That's the problem.

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Dareitus

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@bigsocrates: A lot of people just need to learn it's okay to like things that aren't perfect. You don't have to justify liking something or convince people the thing you like is better than it is. You'll often have more fun anyway when you can embrace "Man, look at this nonsense" instead of worrying about if people respect your game choice enough.

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Dareitus

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I mean, shit, I'm a horror movie fan I know what it's like to enjoy bad things.

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@bigsocrates: I disagree with a lot of what you said, but rather than getting stuck in a pointless off-topic discussion about the definition of terms, I'll let go of the "niche" term and say that the central point of what I was saying is that Sonic had a clear decline in popularity because of the decline in quality of its games, similar to the Warriors series, and that is why reviewers often bash said games, despite the persistence of the fandoms. As other users have written, it's possible to love and enjoy flawed entertainment, but responsible critics have to point out the flaws that very much exist and that is what Giant Bomb has done with the Sonic and Warriors games.

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#23  Edited By tartyron

It's really not just GB, it's been a meme for as long as I recall the internet existing. There have always been arguments that Sonic was never good, and that it's only remembered fondly because Genesis kids in the 90's what couldn't afford a Nintendo as well were stuck playing it and got a sort of Stockholm Syndrome nostalgia for it.

I dunno. I was never a fan, even as a kid, so I guess I'm in that "never good" camp, but for me, it's not the games that I'm actually dunking on, it's the years of internet exposure to the sex stuff that Sonic is attached to. It's kind of impossible for me to separate Sonic from things like pregnant fetish fanart.

I think as long as people get upset about Sonic getting dunked on, the dunking will likely continue. And also if people stop being upset about it, it'll likely continue anyway because it's such a cultural trend. Buy frankly, the people that make money on Sonic as doing fine ether way, because good games or bad, they still make so much on the IP in Movies, shows and merch that it sorta doesn't matter haw the games are or anyone's opinions on them.

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csl316

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#24  Edited By csl316

They're just uncomfortable admitting that they love a beloved icon for children.

I grew up with 16-bit Sonic and loved everything, until it went 3D and became very, very hit or miss. Poor guy got a negative reputation but it's not 100% unwarranted. Even if there have been good to great Sonic games consistently released since inception (especially the handheld games during his bleakest times), there have also been so many high profile clunkers.

Sonic '06 was sandwiched between the fantastic Sonic Rush and Rush Adventure, but you'd think that franchise was a joke around that era because '06 was so god damn bad.

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Topcyclist

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#25  Edited By Topcyclist

@csl316: Yeah, I get the hate. Heck, I think asking this on this site wasn't the smartest thing since yeah of course they align with the sonic is trash take. I'm more speaking to the vitriolic hate that makes it seem like you're playing bubsy 3d every time you turn on a 7/10 sonic game. Like, not every game needs to be mind-blowing or super polished to be fun, or have people enjoying them. But the way the internet goes, you'd commit a war crime than enjoy sonic adventure series or generations so on cause somehow it's all nostalgia and the few sections of jank and falling off a platform or going fast or not going fast ruins the experience. Like people claim sonic was always bad cause you just press forward then claim it's bad because it wants you to go fast, but you have no time to react to things, and they quit…then they get mad at people who still enjoy it and say they don't have the same issues and do react and replay levels because they like them etc. I'm getting a lot of takes as if I'm saying like sonic and bad sonic is good, but I'm more saying why the disgust at people who don't have the same shared take that the games are all bad besides like 1. People still claim 2d was bad as well, sure nearly 30 years later it won't be mind-blowing, but it's still fun for the time. Sonic generations, Sonic colors, sonic rush, sonic rush adventure, sonic adventure (2 and 1 some parts), Sonic frontiers, Sonic 2d games (advanced and genesis) fine games and worth explaining why some kids and people who are older have fond memories of the series. I do think because sonic also focuses on a story (I'm told the comics are actually not bad never read them) and takes risk with cringe plots and dialogue, it does get the meme worthy hate well deserved. BUT again, overall I think I'm missing something, or as another poster said, it's just a meme and for jokes, but damn does it get old for anyone not in on the joke of beating the horse till it's reviving at a bonfire, we get it, sonic you hate his games, and going fast is bad for a platformer/mario has more hits than sonic etc.

PS: Vinny was right, sonic racing transformed is better than Mario Kart 64 or whatever he said, (so is Crash team racing) but Mario Kart is the easiest to sell due to nostalgia, and it's also a great game. :( I've become that which I fought against!!!

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Topcyclist

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@bigsocrates: Alot of your reasons and others are stated like fact but are opinions directly from people who...hate sonic games lol. I know there not mindblowing or great, but like most games i just play em and don't dissect them ad nauseam to pick apart why a ok to fine platformer isn't the best game. I guess it's again this uncontrollable anger i see people have for it even being considered a fun time. Like constantly having to say a movie you like is a “guilty pleasure” no you just liked it, doesn't need to be good by some critic metric of flavor to be enjoyed by you.

Like, if all this was true, and the games are that disgustingly trite to play, the games would sell a lot of worst. Some of them aren't that bad, plenty worst repeat open world games sold each year that get less hate. Plenty of worst platformers (maybe not sonic 06 but the reasons that game is like it is, is well documented, let's stop beating the dead horse and acting like all sonic is like that game.)

For every boom, 06, sonic unleashed (werewolf), there is sonic that's overlooked: generations, sonic colors, sonic frontiers, sonic rush adventure, sonic advanced 3, sonic mania etc.

Mario can have amazing games like galaxy 1/2 for example and have a mixed opinion game like mario sunshine, but everyone overlooks it. (not overlooking that yes mario is more consistent review wise, just using it as an example that a stinker here or there shouldn't be enough to label an entire franchise moot. Even including hate cause sonic's fandom, mario has a fandom just like all fandoms, that annoy people when things are popular. The highest rated tv shows on imdb have dozens of reddit topics on how they are overrated. Everything gets hate, just wondering what makes sonic the one that's hated to the point it feels like he stomped on a puppy like a jojo character.

PS: From reading responses, it comes down to the games just not being consistently great, not even a fault of being just ok, they really need to be great in some eyes. People thinking the original 2d was overrated to begin with, and simple (press forward for speedy cutscene), reaction time makes gameplay tuff, slippery running, some gameplay choices (adventure big the cat, werehog), The fandom still likes the games, and it's annoying because people want them to be forced to improve...by not selling copies??? Finally, what i agree with the most, it's a running joke and people don't hate the games (most hating don't even play them all the way through) but there's better platformers if you get the choice ie mario, hat in time, ori, etc.

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Ydross

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Its a long tradition to hate on Sonic because Sega keep trying to make new type of Sonic games and they keep failing hard. Its just a running gag now

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Shindig

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To be this good takes ages. THEY WARNED US.

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csl316

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@topcyclist: "People still claim 2d was bad as well, sure nearly 30 years later it won't be mind-blowing."

I disagree, still mind-blowing.

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#30 FinalDasa  Moderator

Sonic is too sexy and they're all jealous.

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ll_Exile_ll

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#31  Edited By ll_Exile_ll
@thatpinguino said:

I don't know what to tell folks. Sonic games range from bad to okay. The last universally loved Sonic game was released almost 30 years ago.

This is just not true.

Sonic Mania has an average score of 87%, 97% critics recommended. 93% positive reviews on Steam (with most of the negative related to the DRM or PC port issues).

Sonic Mania Reviews - OpenCritic

Also, Sonic Generations would arguably apply as well. Only a 77% metascore, but 83% user score and 93% positive Steam reviews.

I can accept Generations may not apply to your "universally loved" criteria (though, depending on how strictly you define "universally," that could be no game ever), but Mania most certainly fits whatever metric for widespread acclaim you want to come up with.

Finally, you can certainly pick apart how well they've aged, but the Adventure games were incredibly well regarded across the board when they were released.

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AV_Gamer

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The funny thing about the replies in this thread, is that many on the "Sonic is bad, deal with it" camp, are giving reasons that prove my point. I especially like the, "I watch some Anime, but it doesn't mean I'm a fan of Anime" comparison. Love it. And the "it's not Sonic, its the furry sex stuff I don't like". Hilarious. No actual real good reasons. Like I said, the whole thing is a meme.

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#33  Edited By Lab392

This is an incredible thread.

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Tuksit

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It's really not that weird to find a handful of people that don't like Sonic? Why do people imply that it's some dishonesty on their part because they're ashamed they like it? It's not like Sonic has some universal appeal. The crew(and many of us!) are into plenty of other games nominally 'for kids'(Pokemon, Mario, etc.).

Personally, I've always found the Sonic characters to generally be pretty unappealing, to start with. The world and lore are nothing special either. That's obviously off-putting enough that I haven't played too many of the games but I remember as a kid briefly playing a bit of sonic on the Genesis and a demo of Adventure on Dreamcast. I wasn't the most well versed kid when it came to games at the time but even so both were not fun experiences, though I enjoyed the graphics and tropical setting of Adventure. I've since played various emulated Sonic games and one of the Wii ones for a bit, too. None of them did anything that was appealing to me, personally. It always felt like the best parts of the gameplay were the bits in between, where you're not actually in-putting anything? I did not like the first Sonic movie at all either, it felt trite and pretty pointless to me. So it goes.

Point is, some things don't hit for everyone, that's fine. Don't imply they're being dishonest because it disappoints you, though. I know it can be annoying when people rag on something you like, happens to me too, but you just gotta shrug it off, you know? Your like and their dislike are both valid, they just happen to have a larger audience to voice it to. And sometimes a bit of hyperbole makes for better content, too ;)

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tartyron

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I fucking hate Okra. Doesn’t mean I secretly love okra but I’m embarrassed so I badmouth it to make others think I hate it. I just think is tastes bad. Some people I love dearly love okra. I don’t get it, but I understand that they are being honest when they say they love it, I don’t assume that Big-Okra paid them off for some positive reviews. That’s would be a paranoid, incurious way to live life, never believe someone could have an opinion different than mine.

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cikame

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I think if we're talking specifically the dislike for the Mega Drive games then i don't know, they're totally fine platformers, Gerstmann not liking them because "the speed is great then when you stop it sucks" doesn't fly with me, the speed sections are just fun spectacle like something blowing up in Call of Duty, the core of the game is the platforming and hitting enemies.

Past the Mega Drive/Dreamcast when Sega didn't know what to do with it and platformers going out of vogue they went with the speed, and with the quality of each release usually trending downward i totally understand why people would dislike the franchise from that point, but i will never agree with the idea that those earlier games aren't good, there's plenty of bad platformers to use as examples.

The worst part was watching them begrudgingly agree that Sonic Mania is a good game, despite it being so similar to the MD games.

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dooz

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#37  Edited By dooz
@cikame said:

I think if we're talking specifically the dislike for the Mega Drive games then i don't know, they're totally fine platformers, Gerstmann not liking them because "the speed is great then when you stop it sucks" doesn't fly with me, the speed sections are just fun spectacle like something blowing up in Call of Duty, the core of the game is the platforming and hitting enemies.

IIRC Gerstmann's problem was that you can't go fast because the level designs are such that going fast gets you killed. You have to go slow if you want to live, which ruins the concept of going fast.

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splodge

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Sonic plays too slow.

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cikame

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@dooz: Besides the rollercoaster spectacle moments the speed is also a reward for playing well (i.e. playing multiple times) or just being lucky, but it's not the crux of the game it's just a platformer.

I guess it's just expectation, he's advertised as running fast so you're supposed to run fast, but it's not an endless runner, you will have to stop running.

Sega are in a tough spot with the character, luckily his design and personality carry him because they've never figured out what the best Sonic gameplay is, Mario 64 set a precedent for all 3D platformers and all 3D Mario games share its mechanics but Sonic hasn't really had that game, many 3D Sonic games borrow mechanics from Adventure but that wasn't universally loved, Generations and Colours mixed the 2D and 3D mechanics they'd done before but it's never come together in a way that pleases everyone.

That's why we see fan interpretations of what a Sonic game could be, Sonic Mania stuck to the formula with some new mechanics to spice things up, Spark the Electric Jester has done a little bit of everything, Sonic Utopia gives a glimpse of what a momentum based open world Sonic game could be like, Freedom Planet slows things down a bit focusing more on combat and narrative, because Sonic hasn't nailed its mechanics yet others are inspired to take their own stab at it.

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CurseOfTheWise

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@av_gamer: So all the points about wildly inconsistent quality, terrible writing, tryhard characterization, and rose-tinted glasses on the 2D games="everyone secretly loves it because no one can come up with any REAL complaints"?

This is some confirmation bias+no True Scotsman fallacy thinking here.

@tartyron said:

I fucking hate Okra. Doesn’t mean I secretly love okra but I’m embarrassed so I badmouth it to make others think I hate it. I just think is tastes bad. Some people I love dearly love okra. I don’t get it, but I understand that they are being honest when they say they love it, I don’t assume that Big-Okra paid them off for some positive reviews. That’s would be a paranoid, incurious way to live life, never believe someone could have an opinion different than mine.

Put far better. Why is it so important to OP's enjoyment of a thing that THESE PEOPLE SPECIFICALLY like it? One can go lots of places on the internet to find people genuinely enjoying Sonic, one doesn't have to insist the people who don't are "just foolin'"

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They were bullied by genesis owners as kids and never got over it

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Topcyclist

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@av_gamer: So all the points about wildly inconsistent quality, terrible writing, tryhard characterization, and rose-tinted glasses on the 2D games="everyone secretly loves it because no one can come up with any REAL complaints"?

This is some confirmation bias+no True Scotsman fallacy thinking here.

@tartyron said:

I fucking hate Okra. Doesn’t mean I secretly love okra but I’m embarrassed so I badmouth it to make others think I hate it. I just think is tastes bad. Some people I love dearly love okra. I don’t get it, but I understand that they are being honest when they say they love it, I don’t assume that Big-Okra paid them off for some positive reviews. That’s would be a paranoid, incurious way to live life, never believe someone could have an opinion different than mine.

Put far better. Why is it so important to OP's enjoyment of a thing that THESE PEOPLE SPECIFICALLY like it? One can go lots of places on the internet to find people genuinely enjoying Sonic, one doesn't have to insist the people who don't are "just foolin'"

Had a feeling the responses by people who hate sonic would jump at the idea that the post is about people not liking it and needing to somehow find enjoyment in it cause mehhh opinions should all be the same. It's not a good way to debate things if you just add the dismissive..."that's just your opinion man" sure we all know that. I'm not saying sonic is good bad etc It's whatever, Im more about the vitriolic hate, the I wanna beat a dead horse over how the games are so trash, the sigh if even brought up for getting on a top 50 games of the year when that list nearly included all relevant popular games lol. I'm more talking about why people who enjoyed sonic frontier's flaws in all still feel guilty and caveat it so much. I didnt phrase my question well thou so its fair most are replying about sonic being bad. I kinda got my answer from many in chat though who deciphered what i was going for lol. And for what it's worth GB team just got me thinking about it, i dont think they hated it for game of the year...and they were more joking when riffing on dan saying it's on his top 10. I think most, just like dan, also just dont have a thing in the fight but get annoyed when sonic is pushed on them. He'll play em if they're good kinda thing or decent but wont force himself through a slow opening book if you get my drift, when his favorite book can be reread.

I believe all those who hate sonic games genuinely hate them yes, no denying it. Just wondering if that comes from a place of some otherworldly disgust at the mention or is it from playing the first level, thinking for all the talk it's overrated, and forever hating it cause people push you to try more. Is it the stories being kiddy to serious, is it the controls feeling too fast, slow, etc. Point being, all these issues change with each game, but the complaints stay the same and prosper. I rarely see other games that have a few ok games, a few bad, and a few good get taken out back and told their final days, with continued shouts that they were all never good. Many haven't enjoyed FF games to kingdom hearts for years, but i dont see the auto bandwagon disgust for them, for example.

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@curseofthewise: I never said there wasn't people who genuinely don't like the Sonic games. But, IMO, there are far more people who claim they don't like Sonic because that's what the so-called "cool kids" are saying and they want to fit in. The same with Anime and people being afraid to get called a "Weeb" if they admit to watching it, so they keep that a secret, or they use the "I watch Chainsaw Man, but it doesn't mean I like Anime though!" panic response. Which is why I say, the "Sonic sucks" talk is mostly a meme. And claiming you don't like something because of furry fans (which is a bias) or sex art doesn't quality. That has nothing to do with the games, and there are plenty of other furry animations and games that have Rule34 done to it. And plenty of none furry stuff as well. It doesn't matter.

@alianger said:

They were bullied by genesis owners as kids and never got over it

That actually was kind of a thing back then, which is why Sega took it and ran with it in their "Genesis Does" ads. A lot of Nintendo owners hated Genesis owners until the SNES came out. Luckily, I owned all three, and two TG-16, even though they both broke. Those things were fragile as heck.

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Topcyclist

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@cikame: I think you jive with my idea of those games. If i thought of them like the public and that they're clunky and slippery and i just press forward or die. That the slower sections are annoying cause i wanna keep moving (something pushed by reviews IMO causing sega to get the wrong idea) then i'd dislike em too. Kinda like playing dark souls and getting annoyed that the swings of big weapons are clunky and slow and the bosses hit too hard. Fair assessment, but if you jive with what the game's doing, I can see the loops as a sorta cutscene, as you said. I can see the slower parts as my platforming (and i will agree there's better platforming to be had most of the time, but sonic isn't bubsy or awful, at worst ok.) sections where it's for the most part how most 2d games in the series ended up past 4 stages. My take is they market him on speed, and there's a reason no games really like marketing how fast their character is unless it's a racer. Just too many ways platforming and speed dont mix easy on paper. Still again, not enough to hate the games that much, especially the supposedly good ones, aka generations, sonic 3, etc. I feel it gets more hate than say Balan wonderworld, which gets a sorta, oh your charming cause you tried pat on the head, while frontiers is looked at like it's annoying your a solid 7/10 (dan's score) and looked worst on preview.

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The SNES was the better selling platform in the US it often skews peoples perception of the less popular thing, not helped by Sega's struggles to find a way forward and inconsistent quality with Sonic. Nintendo in general is talked about by the GB crew past and present with the same reverence, which Sega often isn't.

In the UK the Mega Drive(Genesis) was the dominate system and Sonic universally popular, Sega UK also didn't promote Sonic and the Mega Drive in the same way. I never saw anything close to 'Genesis does what Nintendon't!' we got to see gameplay, I have this inbuilt nostalgia regarding early Sega that anytime someone on the GB crew talk about Sonic I sort of glaze over.

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Junpei

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@ll_exile_ll: I will give you the fact that Sonic Mania was well regarded by more than just the Sonic faithful, but I would still caveat that in that it was made by a team external to Sega. While that doesn't discredit it in any way I do think it illustrates that Sega and Team Sonic really lost their way for a long time.

For me, I grew up with the classic Sonic games on Genesis and never thought that the 3D games felt good. Even when my friends brought their Dreamcast over with Sonic Adventure I never felt like I was in control of anything happening. I felt that way trying demos for Heroes and other semi-well regarded 3D Sonic games. They just never made sense to me. Hell, Sonic 3D Blast felt better to me and I think more fondly of it than I do Adventure.

I'm glad that Frontiers found an audience and it seems that Sega might be on the right track, but I think my time with Sonic has just passed at this point.

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styx971

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#47  Edited By styx971

@junpei: this is me exactly , i was a console gamer Because of sonic , i got my genesis cause my mother's bf had his when he moved in when i was little and a copy of sonic spinball of all things, to the point that in the end i got a gensis for my 6th? birthday or x-mas ( would have been in 96 so late ) n all i ever wanted to rent from the local video store was sonic 3 even tho i could have picked whatever else. those early games were great , i never had a dreamcast till about 10 years ago, n fast forward a good 10? years to HS and me having a wii and going to a blockbuster n seeing one of those sonic games ( secret rings?) being hype that he still existed , and then the heartbreat that was playing any of that n it feeling like ass. fast forward more to those dreamcast games being on 360 n saying , what? this does not feel good either , colors didn't feel great , 4 ep 1 was ok , but 4 ep 2 kinda unplayable on pc if i recall , the 2nd heartbreak that was playing generations , it had 2d sonic and i thoyght it was good , but those 3d segments just ....i put it down it wasn't fun ....mania was great tho.. ...all the talk from grubb made me want to try frontiers i 'aquired' a copy to try it , i put it down just after getting into the open world , it doesn't feel great and my expectations where correct , 3d sonic is just bad imo and i think it really is just team sonic being stoborn n making 3d entries when things like mania from sonic fans are just good.

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@av_gamer said:

@curseofthewise: I never said there wasn't people who genuinely don't like the Sonic games. But, IMO, there are far more people who claim they don't like Sonic because that's what the so-called "cool kids" are saying and they want to fit in. The same with Anime and people being afraid to get called a "Weeb" if they admit to watching it, so they keep that a secret, or they use the "I watch Chainsaw Man, but it doesn't mean I like Anime though!" panic response. Which is why I say, the "Sonic sucks" talk is mostly a meme. And claiming you don't like something because of furry fans (which is a bias) or sex art doesn't quality. That has nothing to do with the games, and there are plenty of other furry animations and games that have Rule34 done to it. And plenty of none furry stuff as well. It doesn't matter.

I'm struggling hard to figure out what distinction you're attempting to make here, and why it matters. Every explanation for Sonic being loved or hated is justified outside of kink shaming. I don't understand your fascination with @bladeofcreation's analogy either. You're writing as if it is some kind of way a person is telling on themselves but...it's also an incredibly justifiable way to look at hobbies? A person can like anime and not consider themselves an "anime fan" for a whole mess of reasons just like someone can like a graphically violent film but not consider themselves a fan of violent movies.

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AV_Gamer

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#49  Edited By AV_Gamer
@sethmode said:
@av_gamer said:

@curseofthewise: I never said there wasn't people who genuinely don't like the Sonic games. But, IMO, there are far more people who claim they don't like Sonic because that's what the so-called "cool kids" are saying and they want to fit in. The same with Anime and people being afraid to get called a "Weeb" if they admit to watching it, so they keep that a secret, or they use the "I watch Chainsaw Man, but it doesn't mean I like Anime though!" panic response. Which is why I say, the "Sonic sucks" talk is mostly a meme. And claiming you don't like something because of furry fans (which is a bias) or sex art doesn't quality. That has nothing to do with the games, and there are plenty of other furry animations and games that have Rule34 done to it. And plenty of none furry stuff as well. It doesn't matter.

I'm struggling hard to figure out what distinction you're attempting to make here, and why it matters. Every explanation for Sonic being loved or hated is justified outside of kink shaming. I don't understand your fascination with @bladeofcreation's analogy either. You're writing as if it is some kind of way a person is telling on themselves but...it's also an incredibly justifiable way to look at hobbies? A person can like anime and not consider themselves an "anime fan" for a whole mess of reasons just like someone can like a graphically violent film but not consider themselves a fan of violent movies.

Overall, it doesn't matter. The person created a thread asking a question, and I gave my personal opinion on it, nothing more, nothing less. Feel free to disagree with it if you want to. And there is nothing struggling about my personal take on the Sonic sucks question. I've already said it, people trying to fit in, so they jump on a bandwagon. To me, the "Sonic sucks" thing is one of them. What I find funny is people trying to act like what I'm saying isn't a reality. Just like the Anime point, there a lot of genuine Anime fans whom are now afraid to say so because of the potential of being labeled a "Weeb", which is a shaming tactic used on fans, so they might fess up to liking an Anime that is more acceptable, like Chainsaw Man or Jojo and feel like they're still saved from that label.

One good example of what I'm talking about happened during the 2000s. There was a rock band, you might have heard of them called Nickelback. Nickelback were a very popular band whom released several albums that all sold well, and sold out shows whenever they went on tour. However, the word was that the band sucked for being unoriginal and ripping off other more respected bands. Every time someone mentioned Nickelback, the opinion was that they sucked. It became so ridicules that even the band members started to make fun of the meme of them sucking, despite selling millions of albums and selling out concerts. But among the so-called cool kids, you couldn't be a Nickelback fan and be accepted. For the record, I'm not a fan either, but I'm not a closet in denial out of fear about it. Many real Nickelback fans were. "Leader of men" is the only song by them I liked.

My point isn't talking about people who dislike Sonic games, or people who like something, but not the genre as a whole. I'm talking about people who deep down do like it, but are afraid to say so, because in society its not consider cool or acceptable to do so. Those people do exist, and I am speaking for them. And I again, I do believe many current "Sonic sucks" are this. It's a meme.

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alianger

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@av_gamer said:

I owned all three, and two TG-16, even though they both broke. Those things were fragile as heck.

Nice, I never knew about the PCE at the time. But I had the SMS, MD, GB, SNES, the GG and even the MCD around that time, while I also played Amiga and NES with friends and relatives. It was mostly just good times and we cared more about if the games were fun or not.

I remember the SMS being really sturdy, like I once dropped it down the stairs and nothing happened to it. Sadly I don't have the same copy anymore, I think we stupidly threw it out in the late 90s.