Why I am speaking up for women in games

When Brianna Wu came to these forums and said that Jeff should have trouble sleeping at night because of the way he runs this website, do you think that was more about him or us not knowing something or her attempting to instill shame, either for the fact Dan Ryckert was hired instead of a woman or that the site was apparently not forceful enough in condemning death/rape threats, something that I really think should go without saying?

@milkman: I disagree. I think the best way to learn is to educate yourself on the issue, not to "listen and believe". Since when has "take my word on it" trumped the scientific process?

The issue at hand is the people telling us to "listen and believe" are spinning a false narrative, and overgeneralizing to a heinous degree.

Well, it may very well be true that many men are not going to hear the message, and that doing nothing is easier. But those points really are not relevant to what I was talking about. It's not about lazily pointing out "some" flaw, it's pointing out an egregious error in thinking. Myself and many in this topic are sympathetic with you, but when you say "People are more complex than a single paragraph" and then go on to slam "gamers" and "gaming community" as if it's a homogeneous entity, it comes off as inconstant. That's all.

I'm signing off for the night, but thanks for spending time to talk about this issue. It's not going away any time soon.

This is a valid opinion for someone to have and all, but if that's so, it would be nice if we could drop the pretense of any aspect of this being a "dialogue" or "debate" or "conversation." This entire thread is emblematic of what I hate about all of these issues; it's retweet culture poisoning discourse. I'm not being spoken with and my questions and concerns don't seem to matter. I'm basically being buried in pamphlets and sound-bytes instead of anything substantive or profound.

I wish @spacekatgal the best. It's clear this thread was not what I'd hoped it could've been, so I'll just carry on and leave you all to it.

I was going to type up a long response to this, but I have to go. Just wanted to say I thought this was an excellent post. You get...... 2 cookies :)

@notlikelytocare: I don't know if the "scientific process" component of social behaviors and experiences tells us the whole story.

It never hurts to listen to someone share their experiences. That doesn't mean that we have to all agree with what they think might be the solution to some of their experiences or even that we need to take their experience as THE valid one - just a valid one will do. I'll never know what it's like to be a woman, so it is a good idea to listen to women share their experiences so that I can sympathize even if I can't empathize.

Sometimes it can be hard to share your experiences with people who might not understand - as a black dude, that Dave Chappelle skit he did where he said that no one wants to hear what a young black man thinks, so he got a "pretty white girl" to sing his thoughts rings true with me in the sense that I get where the truth in that skit comes from.

What we have here in this thread is a weird nexus between a few women sharing their experiences and this ongoing argument that we're having about how to actually sit down and talk about this stuff without shaming, being dismissive, etc.

I have a lot to say about this. Thank you for asking.

Listen. This is why this is a false choice. The entire game industry is set up by male rules for men. Men determine what is valuable and what is not. Feminine traits, thought processes and feminine experience are not valued by the industry. Femininity itself is the object of derision.

I know countless incredibly smart, talented women. Let's look at Maddy Myers. I'm sorry, she's flat out one of the best journalists working today. But game journalism outlets don't value the feminine perspective she brings to the table. IGN should be banging down her door to hire her, as should Kotaku and others. But, because this industry is by men for men - it values a frat house refuge like Greg Miller more than someone like Maddy.

It's not tokenism to look around and say, "Gee. Half of all gamers are women. Maybe we should hire some women."

I see this all the time in engineering too. It's not that women are worth less, it's that men don't value us.

I have a completely different question but somewhat related; how do feel women treat each other in tech? Or in general?

You seem to focus a lot on men changing their attitudes, and I'll agree that a lot of men (even myself at times, I am sure) need to give themselves a moment to reconsider how they carry themselves on a day to day basis, how we speak and how we interact with women. But I've also noticed that a lot of women seem to treat each other pretty badly for equally poor reasons. Even using slurs that reinforce the negative aspects of how women are viewed in society.

Do you ever feel like women could use some work on how they portray each other to help with this issue?

I actually feel delighted by this thread. It's much more than I hoped it would be. I appreciate the conversation.

Thanks for making this thread, @spacekatgal. I've been struggling with how to deal with everything that's gone on, and learning more about your experiences has at the very least helped to wrap my head around the enormity of this situation. It is much easier for me to speak up when I know there are people like you putting up with this ridiculous, heinous nonsense and still going.

Of course, as a white male, it's also good to just shut my damn mouth and let the people experiencing it speak, and spread that as much as I can rather than feel the need to add my own two cents. It's been a learning experience, and reading your stories has helped me to understand more.

@rorie, you've done a grand job and the puppy butt policy is FANTASTIC.

Absolutely. Find people who know what they're talking about. Reasonable, educated, experienced people. Listen to them, question them, and honestly engage with them and their ideas.

Maddy Myers may very well be talented. From what I have seen from her on Twitter she is also prone to making very broad brushed derogatory remarks againt some of the very sites you think should be knocking down her door. I had very little knowledge of her until a few months ago when her name came up in the drama surrounding the hiring of Dan. And honestly? I can't imagine what this place would look like with her both on the staff and interacting with a community that she seems to hold in contempt.

That might be true for some people, but people can have plenty of experiences that make it possible to understand how horrible the situation is for women and have ideas for how things can be changed for the better.

Reading through these comments has been interesting, some strong points being made, some evasions, but at the end of the day very insightful stuff. I will just say that I believe in true equality, everyone get treated the same way regardless to race, gender, or sexuality. I wish I could say either side of this argument really seemed to want that, but to be honest it looks like the same old back and forth finger pointing that never gets anything done.

That being said I am mortified that people would be so disgusting as to harass and threaten people to this or to any extent, it is some cave man shit that needs to stop, the internet is an amazing thing, it is too bad it is so full of reprehensible people. I am sorry these things have happened to you.

Yea there is some really bright spots about this website and this community. I think some people have really shown their true colours based on the things that happened but their are still a lot of great people and things here.Its a personality driven website so it can be really easy to feel like your buddying around with your friends when the site is at its best.

Im not gonna pretend that I know what its like being a woman in the gaming world. all I can do is try to be supportive and call out others bullshit when I can.

Keep doing what your doing!

Maybe I'm wrong to feel this, or this is some prejudice, but this sentiment is the one that sends up a flag for me, so I guess I'll just explain why.

Giant Bomb started with Jeff, Ryan, Vinny, Brad, Dave, and Drew the intern (along with other behind the scenes folks of course). Alex and Rorie both worked with the guys in the Gamespot days, and then worked side by side in the same family at Whiskey Media.

The only real new hires have been Patrick, when he was brought in as the news guy, Jason for video production, and Dan for editorial. This last round of hires was really the only time they've ever even announced a "We're hiring!" process. So when I see language like "they do this again, and again, and again" or saying Jeff has a really long track record of doing this, it just doesn't sound like a fair assessment to me. Over years and years, they've only hired 3 new faces. It's not like they have the staff size of IGN or Gamespot or something.

Hey, I can actually explain why this happens, why men never admit they're wrong, ever.

Dudes live by idiotic rules. If a man admits he's wrong and changes his mind in an argument, SHAZAM, that guy is out of the gene pool. (or so his brain tells him. many fights tend to be sort of breeding-rights-like...) Because WEAKNESS! Admitting any kind of defeat is to bow down in shame, and men have dominant tendencies. This is a really simplified explanation, but most things can be traced back to the male brain being fucking DUMB, and some men being too dumb to understand that the dumb bits need to be IGNORED. When people see a black dude and shit their pants, that's because their fight of flight response triggers and they just have no idea that it's an instinct they can't control, and that the instinct is mostly useless to us for judging anything important.. Every time they feel dominated, this kicks in and they feel it as a threat.. If your brain can't suss out that the threat is imaginary, you're fucked.

So yeah.. Men absolutely need to learn how their brains work. If you're prone to anger when someone overtakes you on the road, that's because you've been dominated and that fucks with your brain. The more time you spend giving in to such idiotic urges, the more crazy you get. Learn to ignore the false threats and bigotry just withers away naturally, because nothing fuels it. Imaginary danger is the best fertilizer for all kinds of hate.

(The inability to admit defeat is also reflected in many cultures, in particular in Asia, where making mistakes are viewed as far more shameful than in the more lenient southern Europe, for example. It's a troublesome male trait often exploited to "inspire" efficiency. Fairly effective.)

Just want to specify that it excuses nothing, it just explains. In debates, sidestep your way around men's egos. They are fucking enormous and won't budge if attacked.

Here's a happy note: When dudes argue a dead case until they grow tired, the guy who lost knows he's wrong, and when he comes home he changes his mind. NEVER in front of other people, though. Not while the heat of battle is roaring. So just know that you've changed toooons of people's minds, even if you don't get the satisfaction of seeing them change their minds in real time. :)

Actually it might be better if we didn't look at a friend of yours, someone that you seem apprehensive about criticizing.

@spacekatgal: As an aspiring game dev myself (I'm a man) these past couple of years have been really huge on changing my perspective on the industry and women and internet culture, and I feel like a much better person and much more equipped to try and lead the industry to a better place. It's people like you who push me to change and do better.

I know this isn't about me, but I feel like I needed to take the time to thank you while you're here responding to the GB community (which is fucking super cool of you, fyi). I'm honestly unspeakably grateful for the voices that have risen up in recent years against people being dirtbags. Keep on keepin' on and know that there are people listening, and we're receiving your points loud and clear.

And furthermore what world do we want? One where a certain movement pretends and forces certain behaviours on another group? Forcing others to live the selfish dream they had and have? Or one where there is reason and understanding, where people are enlighten and choose what they think it is best, because of the ideas and not so much because of the emotion with which their words are expressed?

If you want to convince others by the emotion with which you transmit the message, that is merely the power of argumentation and manipulation, and you are duping them to accept what you want them to accept, what you believe is best, not for them, but for the people you have in mind with your words... Word-plays... Personally I don't believe they'll take us where we as human beings want to go.

And to see it you merely have to look at the advertising industry behind the AAA games, that convinces us that that is the game we want to buy, and when we do get it, we mostly feel disappointed, in the game in which we put so much belief, and isn't like we thought it would be. The world wasn't lit on fire. We were dupped by the compelling words, and arguments, by the emotions that were provoked in us, and in the end it wasn't like we were led to believe.

It's easier to convince by emotion, but that is merely manipulation. And if we want the same arid and violent world we have today, then go for the emotion, but then don't advertise the fact that you were sent death threats. Because playing with people's emotions is like playing with fire.

With all the flimsy arguments people have pointed out, I highly doubt it. If you need to say different forms of, "I'll thank you not to talk about that" a lot of times, you're probably heavily biased and trying to mask things.

That's fine. His company, his choice. But look - this site has 0 percent diversity. None. Zero. Zip. In an industry where women are literally being threatened out of our homes due to misogynistic culture - Giant Bomb is the most egregious example of a journalist enterprise not caring about diversity.

Want to hear black voices? Giant Bomb chooses not to hire them.

Want to hear women's voices? Giant Bomb chooses not to hire them.

Want to hear gay voices? Giant Bomb chooses not to hire them.

Want to hear Hispanic voices? Giant Bomb chooses not to hire them.

Want to hear transgender voices? Giant Bomb chooses not to hire them.

This is an industry with a really terrible track record of diversity. And, Giant Bomb's choices make it poster child of not caring about diversity. His company, his choice - but I'm known for advocating women in this field. And Giant Bomb doesn't get a pass just because they are good guys.

Their decision to keep their heads in the sand on issues affecting women DEVASTATES their credibility of being allies to women, especially with Samantha.

Yeah, might be better to move to someone else, because some people seem hellbent on believing what they've read on the internet instead of @spacekatgal's account.

@mostlysquares: I think you bring up a good point. It's not a good excuse, but the fact that we basically have the same brains as our ancestors living in caves is often a good explanation of why people do fucked up things. Evolution works slow in some cases.

I categorically reject that in my own case. I cherish being wrong. It's the quickest way to get closer to being right. In fact, I know perhaps three male persons who fits the frankly baffling stereotype you're presenting, and then generally in limited areas of discussion, mainly religion and political beliefs. And I know for damn sure that that's not a purely male trait from my experiences with religious and political debates and discussions over the years.

Now we're back to the old canard of BIOTRUTHS. I wish I wasn't born a woman.

Brianna,

I'd just like to thank you for taking the time to post this thread. I saw your tweet about the "letter to the editor" conversation, and was very disheartened to see the responses, both as a game developer and fan of the site. I know it takes a HUGE amount of energy to post and respond (even something as simple as a posting a Reddit comment on the subject can leave me emotionally exhausted) so the outreach to promote understanding within Giant Bomb has been unexpected and extremely welcomed.

All in all, thanks. I haven't read the contents of this thread yet, but I hope it is proving to be a better dialog. I know that the GB community is capable of understanding, even if it takes a lot of inertia.

I appreciate you saying that. Look, I'm really trying to get people to get their heads out of the sand and notice this stuff. If more men don't wake up and start helping us, we're going to lose an entire generation of women working in games.

So you'd rather they check off some minority quota than hire the right person for the job?

@spacekatgal: I feel horrible and sickened by any abuse or harassment directed towards women in gaming. Even though I'm a straight white male (the unholy trifecta, if you will), it comes from a place and a mentality that I can't understand. I try to treat all people with respect. Some of my best friends that I've met through online gaming and interactions have been women. So, I really don't know what to do to better the situation. Even as you suggest I follow Anita Sarkeesian's advice and believe women when they document these cases of harassment, even that feels like such an impotent response. When women in gaming say they are going to persevere through this shitstorm, my first thought isn't "Good for you!", it's "Why?...". I dunno, I'm just left shaking my head...

Just an honest question. You've said before that you used to be a huge fan of Giant Bomb and paid to be a subscriber. That's great. But I guess the thing that confuses me is that this site was essentially the same size in terms of employee number and had the same lack of diversity back in 2011 when you were a fan. So what changed? One editorial hire that was a man instead of a woman or minority transformed the site from something you felt ok about spending money to support to something that is now this bastion of everything wrong with the industry and why Jeff Gerstmann should have trouble sleeping at night?

You are free to have whatever feelings you want of course, but I am having trouble understanding that leap.

Hey, you know what? Don't say that to me - okay? Women are not a "minority quota." We're here in this field. We're passionate about games, we bring a lot to the table. Giant Bomb would be lucky to have any number of women work here.

If you don't respect women, that's your problem. But don't say this garbage to my face. Understood?

@mems1224 said:

I'm just going to leave a link to Jenn Frank's "Rolodex" piece here.

It's going to get better. I promise. We're making it better talking about this right now.

Maybe the right person for the job is one or more of the above.

I know, right!? Those crazy, emotional ladies doing things they love. They should be more rational about things! :D

I just don't see how anything constructive has been said here. Yes, even including myself right now.

All I see is a bunch of finger-pointing with no ground being gained.

I mean..... We're criticizing a guy who owns a small gaming news site over not going 'Specialty pizza on his order.'

Don't get me wrong, I totally wish Giant Bomb had all the funds in the world to hire to their heart's content, bring in all these voices, and have this place just be overflowing with awesome fucking content.

I guess, personally, I just don't begrudge them because to all the world it seems that they were only able to get the go-ahead for new hires after the tragic passing of a coworker and their senior video producer moving to New York. :(

@spacekatgal:

Just wanted to pop in and say that Dan and Jason have been fantastic additions to the staff. I can only hope future hires, whoever that may be regardless, measure up to the high bar that Dan/Jason and the rest of the staff have set over the years.

I really hope you can look past your grievances with the site and digest some of the unique and amazing content that GB has produced over the last few years. This community is incredible, save a few knuckleheads, as well.

With how successful this small site's been, I'd say they've picked the right people.

I personally think the question of GB's hirings should be directed to CBSi or whatever company they've outsourced their selection process to. No offense, but one of the downsides of having access more corporate funds and resources means that you're beholden to that company's hiring procedure.

Not sure why you're getting defensive and attacking me for simply asking a question. I never said women shouldn't work for Giant Bomb.

Fine. He hired who he wanted to. His company, his choice.

But how do you explain doing nothing for weeks while Samantha was being attacked? If he's going to choose to run a site with no diversity, you'd think he'd understand he had more of a responsibility to stand up for women. Or even to appear like he cared.

No, he did nothing. And, by the time he did write a weak statement, Samantha had left the industry. Her exact words to me about his statement were, "milquetoast," and she was totally right. He owed her a phone call.

Look, I didn't want this to become another thread about Samantha. But, I can't let them off the hook here. This industry gets a D- for the way it treats women. We have got to act like adults and address this problem.

You may feel like Jeff, Vinnie and others are your friends - but their track women with women is one of the worst in the whole industry.

Because you just said that hiring a minority isn't the right person for the job?

@spacekatgal: I think he was pointing out the actual minority quota you posted...
You know, the one where you listed a bunch of minorities?

I kind of agree but this issue might be compounded by the fact that game jounalists aren't really hired for their journalism skills anymore. You call it ''frat house refuge'' but that kind of personality and character is actually the thing that makes money for game websites these days. Giant Bomb was the first one to see that trend coming and built a website around it. Nowadays you either write countless fluff pieces every day *cough* Kotaku, Polygon *cough* or have likeable, knowledgeable personalities on screen.

What makes a personlity likeable is determined by the audiance of mostly straight white dudes. So yeah, that's kind of a hard problem to solve.

Not what I said at all.

I

Why is it an either or situation in your mind?