Wired exclusive on the next Sony console

Wired just ran this story in which they sat down with Mark Cerny to talk about the "PS5"

MARK CERNY WOULD like to get one thing out of the way right now: The videogame console that Sony has spent the past four years building is no mere upgrade.

You’d have good reason for thinking otherwise. Sony and Microsoft both extended the current console generation via a mid-cycle refresh, with the Xbox One and PlayStation 4 spawning mini-sequels (the Xbox One S and PS4 Pro). “The key question,” Cerny says, “is whether the console adds another layer to the sorts of experiences you already have access to, or if it allows for fundamental changes in what a game can be.”

The answer, in this case, is the latter. It’s why we’re sitting here, secreted away in a conference room at Sony’s headquarters in Foster City, California, where Cerny is finally detailing the inner workings of the as-yet-unnamed console that will replace the PS4.

If history is any guide, it will eventually be dubbed the PlayStation 5. For now, Cerny responds to that question—and many others—with an enigmatic smile. The “next-gen console,“ as he refers to it repeatedly, won’t be landing in stores anytime in 2019. A number of studios have been working with it, though, and Sony recently accelerated its deployment of devkits so that game creators will have the time they need to adjust to its capabilities.

As he did with the PS4, Cerny acted as lead system architect for the coming system, integrating developers’ wishes and his own gaming hopes into something that’s much more revolution than evolution. For the more than 90 millionpeople who own PS4s, that's good news indeed. Sony’s got a brand-new box.

A TRUE GENERATIONAL shift tends to include a few foundational adjustments. A console’s CPU and GPU become more powerful, able to deliver previously unattainable graphical fidelity and visual effects; system memory increases in size and speed; and game files grow to match, necessitating larger downloads or higher-capacity physical media like discs.

PlayStation’s next-generation console ticks all those boxes, starting with an AMD chip at the heart of the device. (Warning: some alphabet soup follows.) The CPU is based on the third generation of AMD’s Ryzen line and contains eight cores of the company’s new 7nm Zen 2 microarchitecture. The GPU, a custom variant of Radeon’s Navi family, will support ray tracing, a technique that models the travel of light to simulate complex interactions in 3D environments. While ray tracing is a staple of Hollywood visual effects and is beginning to worm its way into $10,000 high-end processors, no game console has been able to manage it. Yet.

Ray tracing’s immediate benefits are largely visual. Because it mimics the way light bounces from object to object in a scene, reflective surfaces and refractions through glass or liquid can be rendered much more accurately, even in real-time, leading to heightened realism. According to Cerny, the applications go beyond graphic implications. “If you wanted to run tests to see if the player can hear certain audio sources or if the enemies can hear the players’ footsteps, ray tracing is useful for that,” he says. “It's all the same thing as taking a ray through the environment.”

The AMD chip also includes a custom unit for 3D audio that Cerny thinks will redefine what sound can do in a videogame. “As a gamer,” he says, “it's been a little bit of a frustration that audio did not change too much between PlayStation 3 and PlayStation 4. With the next console the dream is to show how dramatically different the audio experience can be when we apply significant amounts of hardware horsepower to it.”

The result, Cerny says, will make you feel more immersed in the game as sounds come at you from above, from behind, and from the side. While the effect will require no external hardware—it will work through TV speakers and visual surround sound—he allows that the “gold standard” will be headphone audio.

One of the words Cerny uses to describe the audio may be a familiar to those who follow virtual reality: presence, that feeling of existing inside a simulated environment. When he mentions it, I ask him about PlayStation VR, the peripheral system that has sold more than 4 million units since its 2016 release. Specifically, I ask if there will be a next-gen PSVR to go alongside this next console. “I won't go into the details of our VR strategy today,” he says, “beyond saying that VR is very important to us and that the current PSVR headset is compatible with the new console.”

So. New CPU, new GPU, the ability to deliver unprecedented visual and audio effects in a game (and maybe a PSVR sequel at some point). That’s all great, but there’s something else that excites Cerny even more. Something that he calls “a true game changer,” something that more than anything else is “the key to the next generation.” It’s a hard drive.

THE LARGER A game gets—last year’s Red Dead Redemption 2 clocked in at a horse-choking 99 gigabytes for the PS4—the longer it takes to do just about everything. Loading screens can last minutes while the game pulls what it needs to from the hard drive. Same goes for “fast travel,” when characters transport between far-flung points within a game world. Even opening a door can take over a minute, depending on what’s on the other side and how much more data the game needs to load. Starting in the fall of 2015, when Cerny first began talking to developers about what they’d want from the next generation, he heard it time and time again: I know it’s impossible, but can we have an SSD?

Solid-state drives have been available in budget laptops for more than a decade, and the Xbox One and PS4 both offer external SSDs that claim to improve load times. But not all SSDs are created alike. As Cerny points out, “I have an SSD in my laptop, and when I want to change from Excel to Word I can wait 15 seconds.” What’s built into Sony’s next-gen console is something a little more specialized.

To demonstrate, Cerny fires up a PS4 Pro playing Spider-Man, a 2018 PS4 exclusive that he worked on alongside Insomniac Games. (He’s not just an systems architect; Cerny created arcade classic Marble Madness when he was all of 19 and was heavily involved with PlayStation and PS2 franchises like Crash Bandicoot, Spyro the Dragon, and Ratchet and Clank.) On the TV, Spidey stands in a small plaza. Cerny presses a button on the controller, initiating a fast-travel interstitial screen. When Spidey reappears in a totally different spot in Manhattan, 15 seconds have elapsed. Then Cerny does the same thing on a next-gen devkit connected to a different TV. (The devkit, an early “low-speed” version, is concealed in a big silver tower, with no visible componentry.) What took 15 seconds now takes less than one: 0.8 seconds, to be exact.

That’s just one consequence of an SSD. There’s also the speed with which a world can be rendered, and thus the speed with which a character can move through that world. Cerny runs a similar two-console demonstration, this time with the camera moving up one of Midtown’s avenues. On the original PS4, the camera moves at about the speed Spidey hits while web-slinging. “No matter how powered up you get as Spider-Man, you can never go any faster than this,” Cerny says, “because that's simply how fast we can get the data off the hard drive.” On the next-gen console, the camera speeds uptown like it’s mounted to a fighter jet. Periodically, Cerny pauses the action to prove that the surrounding environment remains perfectly crisp. (While the next-gen console will support 8K graphics, TVs that deliver it are few and far between, so we’re using a 4K TV.)

What else developers will be able to do is a question Cerny can’t answer yet, because those developers are still figuring it all out—but he sees the SSD as unlocking an entirely new age, one that upends the very tropes that have become the bedrock of gaming. “We're very used to flying logos at the start of the game and graphic-heavy selection screens," he says, "even things like multiplayer lobbies and intentionally detailed loadout processes, because you don't want players just to be waiting."

At the moment, Sony won’t cop to exact details about the SSD—who makes it, whether it utilizes the new PCIe 4.0 standard—but Cerny claims that it has a raw bandwidth higher than any SSD available for PCs. That’s not all. “The raw read speed is important,“ Cerny says, “but so are the details of the I/O [input-output] mechanisms and the software stack that we put on top of them. I got a PlayStation 4 Pro and then I put in a SSD that cost as much as the PlayStation 4 Pro—it might be one-third faster." As opposed to 19 times faster for the next-gen console, judging from the fast-travel demo.

As you’ve noticed, this is all hardware talk. Cerny isn’t ready to chat about services or other features, let alone games and price, and neither is anyone at Sony. Nor will you hear much about the console at E3 in June—for the first time, Sony won’t be holding a keynote at the annual games show. But a few more things come out during the course of our conversation. For example, the next-gen console will still accept physical media; it won’t be a download-only machine. Because it’s based in part on the PS4’s architecture, it will also be backward-compatible with games for that console. As in many other generational transitions, this will be a gentle one, with numerous new games being released for both PS4 and the next-gen console. (Where exactly Hideo Kojima’s forthcoming title Death Stranding fits in that process is still unconfirmed. When asked, a spokesperson in the room repeated that the game would be released for PS4, but Cerny’s smile and pregnant pause invites speculation that it will in fact be a two-platform release.)

What gaming will look like in a year or two, let alone 10, is a matter of some debate. Battle-royale games have reshaped multiplayer experiences; augmented reality marries the fantastic and real in unprecedented ways. Google is leading a charge away from traditional consoles by launching a cloud-gaming service, Stadia, later this year. Microsoft’s next version of the Xbox will presumably integrate cloud gaming as well to allow people to play Xbox games on multiple devices. Sony’s plans in this regard are still unclear—it’s one of the many things Cerny is keeping mum on, saying only that “we are cloud-gaming pioneers, and our vision should become clear as we head toward launch”—but it’s hard to think there won’t be more news coming on that front.

For now, there’s the living room. It’s where the PlayStation has sat through four generations—and will continue to sit at least one generation more.

The most interesting parts that stick out to me

• Backwards compatible
• Sticking with AMD
• Ray tracing built into the AMD GPU
• SSD with incredible load times
• Upgrade to audio hardware
• Will accept physical discs

It's interesting to see they're starting to bring press in, even if press are just getting to look at a big silver box with wires coming out of it. I still think we'll have this console by next year, with an official announcement similar to that of the PS4 later this year.

Also trying to title this without making it sound like click bait is hard. Also I can't wait for the next week of clickbait articles based on this one article.

Thanks for the info, but it isn't cool to post an entire article from another site, even if you did provide the link.

@redwing42: If it's breaking a rule (which I don't believe it is) and/or the mods have any issue with it, they can edit the post.

Our streaming-only nightmares is put to rest at least for the next generation.

But will it run Crysis?

There's nothing incredibly surprising here but it's cool to see them lift the curtain a little bit.

My guess is 2019 announcement, 2020 shipping - probably not really a surprise to anyone I guess.

I wonder what the XBox team is discussing in an emergency meeting this morning...

For all the "change what a game can be"-like quotes, nothing here seems like it would change games all that much. Thank god they're trying to cut loading times down again though, it'll be good to see the back of them (again).

Backwards compatibility is great, and assuming it includes digital content I can't see a reason not to sell my Pro and ease the blow of another $500 upgrade. Maybe points towards keeping the controller's touchpad too, but man I hope that thing gets some kind of upgrade to prevent it becoming a glorified select button again.

@turboman: AMEN

SSD was a given, but still fun to hear. I'm still a little surprised the Xbox One X never launched with an SSD.

I hope they focus on pushing at least 60fps as a target for all titles, but the ray tracing addition is making me worry they're focusing again on how good things look rather than how they perform.

I still think all the manufacturers release streaming only boxes this cycle if all goes well though.

Its good sony learned lessons from last generation rather than getting too big for the britches again. At least thats what it seems like

Interesting to hear Cerny bring up the potential UI and UX implications of fast SSDs, will be fascinating to see how much will really change now that they're being brought to consoles as a standard.

Videos and screenshots sell games. That's never going to change now that games can look as slick as they do.

Great news!

no real shockers here. but i am glad they appear to be taking a hardware-centric approach. it will be interesting to see how the market speaks when we have google going ham on streaming, microsoft with likely some hybrid/service approach, and sony presenting the most conservative (read: traditional) option. curious what devs will make of all this too...with that report of apple dropping serious dime on their exclusive program (coupled with epic making it rain for exclusives)- it seems devs are being enticed and pulled in several different directions.

I am slightly worried that the Raytracing might drive the price up to 500$ but then again we dont yet know what the specs are on the Zen2 chips that AMD is putting in those things beyond the random rumors (8 cores 16 threads for 189~$) so wait and see on that one I guess.

Yeah the mention of 8k made me groan, I really dont give a shit. I just hope developers are better at letting players choose between resolution and performance next gen.

(I'm aware it isnt always as simple as lowering the resolution=much better fps, but in Anthem for example, which had an unlocked framerate on PS4, you had to enable some system level setting that forced 1080p if you wanted the best performance, which is just stupid)

They probably aren't having one. I don't think they view Sony as direct competition at this point. It was clear, especially after this past year that they are taking their platform in a different direction.

They've done, and continue to do, the work required to push into the fully digital space. The thing is, people complain about a "all digital future", where PC has been in this space for almost 2 decades. The only difference will be the push to streaming, which I think is in the exact same spot as when DLC and digital gaming first came around and now it's fine.

That's one spicy ssd. I honestly didn't know amd had raytracing capabilities.

Backwards compatible?

Upscaling PS2 games like there's a George Foreman under my TV. This is my perfect life.

Is Nvidia just too expensive to work with?

It really feels soon but it has been a while now. It feels like this generation of consoles really struggled to get off the finish line and they're only now warming up.

From my understanding the simple answer is yes. If i remember right Sony and Microsoft both went with the Jaguar because it was the only CPU/GPU on the market, which lowers the cost of making the chips and helps with cooling, which reduces the overall cost of making the consoles. So from a licensing standpoint im sure Nvidia is probably fine to work with, but as far as i know doesn't have a CPU/GPU on a chip.

Before people get "too excited" I would say that I would not expect a true SSD in the PS5. What they are hinting at is a "solid state cashe" drive much like Intel Optane™ Technology or AMDs's StoreMI

So, what the drive does is it cashes that game data you have most recently used. So when you restart a game you already stated the data is already in the a type of solid state memory. So I would expect most SKUs of the PS5 to have the same physical drives as we have now just with an extremely fast cashe. BUT THAT IS GOOD! So, let me explain, this is good because sort of system means even games you have on a external drive can have games run fast. The cashe can be used by any drive. So, it not just the games on "a specific fast drive" that get a boost - all storage can cashe data.

In real world term when you get a new game that initial load times will still be slower than that 0.8 ms, likely first load will only be as fast as the drive that game data is coming off of, but a subsequent load of that same data on the "Optane-like" cashe will be the super fast way. Yet, I expect that PS5 will utilize the speed of an SSD you put in yourself better. Whereas PS4 could not fully accept the bandwidth coming off a SSD, I expect PS5 will full speed of a SSD. Heck, Sony might even sell a SKU with an SSD drive...but that will be the "EXPENSIVE" model.

Time will tell, but the smart economical move for Sony is a HDD with a "Optane-like" cashe. And, as I said above architecturally speaking a fast cashe that ALL drives connected to the system can use is actually better. The downside is that they cashe would NOT be very big. It could be as low as 20 GB...but that is a guess...it could be larger or smaller. It is a cashe...and Sony will make it as small as it can while still making it useful as a fast cashe.

Actully, Nvidia is sort of disreputable, and their past partners have never been happy for long. Nvidia has a very dark history ...

Nvidia - Anti-Competitive, Anti-Consumer, Anti-Technolog https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0L3OTZ13Os

I don't feel like a hardware upgrade is going to make me feel any sense of hype, honestly. Faster load times are cool but there are very few developers who have the budget to really take advantage of it. Think of some of the big disappointments from the last few months. Anthem, Crackdown 3, whatever; would a more powerful machine have made those games better? Doubt it. I'm by no means a "pc master race" troll, but whatever they put in this console is still going to fall short of what my pc is running right now, let alone in 2 years, and nobody is developing "next gen" games for pc because nobody has figured out what the next step is.

I feel like the bottlenecks for videogames aren't hardware based, they're in Ai design, character design, writing, style - none of which is going to be significantly changed by a faster or more powerful machine. Otherwise that stuff would already be happening on pc. But I appreciate they have to keep up, so this was inevitable.

So this is cool, and I'll buy one, and i'll buy remastered versions of everything again, but i'm going to need to hear about more than hardware before I get actively excited.

Sounds good so far. PS4 backwards compatibility was a given IMO, but if it supports physical PS1/PS2 at least then that'll be worthy of praise. A "real"/full SSD in this thing sounds too far fetched to me. They're still too expensive to fit in the price bracket these consoles are aiming for. I put a 1TB SSD in my PS4 (which I have since removed in prep for next console hoping it'll have SATA3 6gb/s support) and it was at least a couple hundred bucks. 500GB is not enough. 1TB is barely enough. So I'm calling some kinda bs on this SSD magic they're talking (like mentioned above).

I really hope Sony comes out swinging. Every generation has been a see-saw effect between the companies since Xbox/PS2 era. 2 steps forward, 1 step back. I assume if they get off on the right foot, it'll be equivalent to the PS1/PS2 runaway success.

Might be some kind of RAM cache, I suppose. "Faster than anything available for PC" is a bold claim that I'm not going to take seriously until a third party tests it in the real world.

I'm not defending the way these games turned out, but the 2 you have cited here had very troubled development. New hardware wouldn't change the way they turned out because they were a mess throughout. It's true that most studios aren't going to have the resources to take advantage of new hardware like big studios, but it does provide new creative opportunities. Cerny touched on this briefly in the article, where he considers that the way menus, lobbies etc are constructed because of how loading currently works. The faster fly through of new york on the dev kit spiderman demonstrates how navigation can be adapted along with faster streaming of objects and textures. Creative opportunities apply to studios big and small. I also noticed Cerny said (you can choose whether to believe him) that developers really want an SSD.

Does this justify a bunch of expensive hardware? Maybe not.

I think people will be a little surprised at how this console really turns out. I do not think a word of the article is false,I think what Sony was saying the truth, but they were be more vauge than you think.

The other interesting thing - for the whole industry, is that gaming is on the cusp of a graphics change. In the next five years, teh industry will have another "seismic event" like the introduction of 3D cards for Quake. A change where computer graphics in games jump an order of magnitude. Not just what you see, but how what you see is made and at what computational cost. Making rasterized 3D graphics look good is getting harder. The drawback of rasterization is that the visual effect, required for an accurate simulation of a scene; reflections, shadows and refractions - is getting computationally expensive . What that means is as soon as we have engines for ray tracing, ray pathing with suitable hardware to do that math realistic graphics will be less computationally inexpensive - where inexpensive mean you can do it fast with home hardware. What that means is real terms, is what you need to do real-time ray casting/tracing at above 100 fps could happen fast quicker than people think.

One year a single game will look really frighteningly photorealistic and the next year fifty games look like that. Then year after that, nearly every Triple-A effort game -that desires to look photorealistic- will look like that, And, no none of the current RTX games are that first game...not even close. But when it happens- WHAMOO! The next five years of gaming hardware won't be boring, yet what comes-out in 2020 might age really fast or really slow depending on if the next game engines leverage multiple cores. Who knows, AMD Ryzen 2 with Navi, even the low power chiplets, might be damn impressive at the computational horsepower needed.

the SSD as unlocking an entirely new age

I mean I like my SSD, but this is not quite how I'd describe my experience with it. Did we see anything other than incremental (significant no doubt, but still incremental) improvements for PC games with the advent of SSD-based storage? I'm pretty skeptical that this would be all that different just because it's in a PS5 (though most likely Cerny isn't talking about the more unique things about PS5 yet?)