Would you want to play as the Axis soldiers in WWII...?
With that out of the way, as the average American white male, we've been shooting Nazi Germans, Russians, Chinese, Japanese, etc for the longest while. There is a huge variety of games that present conflicts with real-world countries/races. I've always thought it would be fun to see things on the other side of the conflict. But is it really... fun?
The topic is much less a poll than it is a rhetorical question. I've never thought much about it when I was setting Imperial Japanese soldiers on fire in World at War. I never thought much about it when I was shooting Russian mutants in Singularity... Most people don't think that it is much of a deal. But then many governments of these countries that are portrayed in games actively ban the sales of such in their countries. I always thought, "chill the heck out man it's just a game!"
Until today i just read this: "I want to be an American naval officer during the Boxer Rebellion in China during the 19th Century." (thread by the_ellio, sorry). I actually felt bad. It was a time when the common Chinese people actually were stepped on like dirt, under a rotten government, when 8 "Western" countries came in and raided, looted, and killed a lot of innocents who are nothing but religious and hope that their country will no longer be in turmoil. Just thinking about that makes me cringe a little bit. If the game had me playing as an American naval officer, killing my own people when they were most vulnerable...
And while I still do enjoy popping heads off Chinese ghoul officers in Fallout 3, I'm starting to think... Do games that involve real-world countries, races, ethnicities actually offend those who are misrepresented in-game? A lot of these "enemies" fight for a national cause, be it right or wrong, but still a cause nevertheless. I'm not saying what the Nazi Germans have done to the Jews is tolerable, but it was a time when the German people were struggling economically, when the world looked down on them as they could hardly make a living... Is there anyone who's not a white American offended by these video games?
Maybe I'm taking this a little bit too seriously, maybe that technology or the market simply does not allow anything too realistic to be portrayed in video games. But it's definitely food-for-thought the next time you put a bullet in an enemy that's not of your race.
btw, Homefront seems to be trying to bring that feeling to the states, but do you think you'd feel it?
I would love to play as an Axis soldier in a WW2 game. I'm so tired of them always being the same exact battles that the Allies fought. I know the game will end in failure, but give us something new! I'm all for a German/Japanese WW2 game as opposed to a US/Russian game.
This is something that I'd tend to consider as well. I'm not American, but I'm white so perhaps my view of this is skewed in some cases.
I think there's a problem with western trends to assert that THEY are the good guys, and everyone else is evil/misguided/stupid. It also ties into the decision for nearly every major western game having a male American protagonist. I wonder how well people would have reacted to Desmond Miles being a Korean Woman instead of an American Male.
Since the major market in the west is America it's not surprising that this is the case...people need to connect with the character, and the easiest way to do that is to create the idealised staple action hero for that country. Japan does the same thing with it's anime archetypes in videogames. Hollywood also has a lot to do with this, but i'll be here all day if we start discussing archetypes in modern fiction.
This also ties into the need for players (gamers? those who play videogames? Whats the accepted word here..gamers sounds rather insulting to me..) to feel like they are the 'good guy'. Standing up for truth and justice, and god help us all, the American way. It's programmed into us from a young age that the good guys win and the bad guys lose, and that Americans are the good guys and everyone else is potentially the bad guys.
or you could just say
" I've never wanted to play the loser. I'm a winner. "
He may be old, but boy can he be pithy when he wants to be....
I have actually thought about whether or not playing as a German soldier during WWII would work. I really think it could depending on what kind of soldier you play.
Plenty of Germans in WWII did not actually share the Nazi party's intentions. The Nazis used a fierce campaign of fear, lies, and aggression to force soldiers to fight the way they wanted them to. If the game would portray you as more of an average German dragged into the conflict under misleading promises who was slowly revealed the nefarious nature of the war effort and the Nazi party's true agenda, then I think the game would be seen as an acceptable portrayal of playing as the bad guy.
As long as it's a well made game I see no point in what side I play during a conflict. For example I wouldn't want to play a guard in a concentration camp where the only point of the game was to kill as many people as possible. Just as I wouldn't want to play a game where the only point was to bomb German cities and try to rack up as many civilian burn victims as possible.
It doesn't matter what side you play, you can always make it tasteless and pointless. Just as you can always make it relevant and poignant. The main problem as I see is that FPS' usually aren't adult enough to handle heavy issues like "everyone you're killing is just another human". I think the closest we've come was the airport scene in MW2, but that wasn't handled very well so I think it's yet to be proven.
I think it would be interesting to play from the Axis point of view in a WWII era game. Perhaps not even a FPS. It could make for a heavy and thought-provoking game if done right. Perhaps you would play as a German man who is forced to leave his family but is against the genocide but commits it because he is forced to. It wouldn't be well-received, most likely. I don't understand why people think burning Japanese soldiers to death with a flame-thrower is ok either. I hated those parts of World At War.
But yeah, I'd be interested in a historically correct and unbiased game from the viewpoint of the Axis soldier.
I have no problem with playing as a German soldier, WWII Japanese, N. Korea/PR China, NVA/Vietcong, etc...as long as it's handled appropriately. If the developer is trying to show the battle from an alternate point of view, that's great. But, if it's just exploitive, then there's really little point. And, I don't want to play as something distasteful like a Nazi concentration camp prison guard. There was a Vietnam game made sometime last decade where, for a brief couple of levels in the single-player campaign, you got to play as a Vietcong soldier (Vietcong 2).
" I reckon playing a Nazi would have the same kind of backlash that Medal of Honor got for playing as Al-qaeda. "You can play as the Axis in Battlefield 1942.
At this point, the only WWII game I would play is one where I can fight for the Fuhrer and change history so the good guys actually won.
" @Jasta said:
" I reckon playing a Nazi would have the same kind of backlash that Medal of Honor got for playing as Al-qaeda. "You can play as the Axis in Battlefield 1942. "
Oh yeah, I totally forgot about that! Looks like Nazi's get the green flag when it comes to murdering the Allies of WWII in-game.
Oh man, we had a bunch of these threads already. Here we go.
- I am a German.
- No I get not offended by playing a Wehrmacht soldier. As long as it is tasteful.
- Yes, there was actually was a difference between the german armed forces in WWII ("Wehrmacht"), which often not were Nazis, and the concentration camp guards ("Schutzstaffel", "SS"), which were required to be Nazis.
- There, are plenty of games with Axis campaigns already (like Company of Heros).
A little late for it, but yeah back when those games were coming out I totally wanted one. Relic pulled it off well in CoH, and they had 3 German campaigns across the two expansions.
I can't find where I saw it but I remember reading that CoH was one of the few games to be given the blessing of the German government because they always referred to them as simply the Wehrmacht and used iron crosses instead of swastikas.
" @themangalist:I'd have to disagree, generally. I mean you're right, but it certainly isn't limited to America or western cultures. Let's take a look at the feudal period of Japan for example. Tokugawa Ieyasu probably thought he was the good guy and the other daimyos were the bad guys, and had all his vassals believe that too. Believing you're the good guy and need to win certainly isn't limited to Americans or western culture.
This is something that I'd tend to consider as well. I'm not American, but I'm white so perhaps my view of this is skewed in some cases.
I think there's a problem with western trends to assert that THEY are the good guys, and everyone else is evil/misguided/stupid. It also ties into the decision for nearly every major western game having a male American protagonist. I wonder how well people would have reacted to Desmond Miles being a Korean Woman instead of an American Male.
Since the major market in the west is America it's not surprising that this is the case...people need to connect with the character, and the easiest way to do that is to create the idealised staple action hero for that country. Japan does the same thing with it's anime archetypes in videogames. Hollywood also has a lot to do with this, but i'll be here all day if we start discussing archetypes in modern fiction.
This also ties into the need for players (gamers? those who play videogames? Whats the accepted word here..gamers sounds rather insulting to me..) to feel like they are the 'good guy'. Standing up for truth and justice, and god help us all, the American way. It's programmed into us from a young age that the good guys win and the bad guys lose, and that Americans are the good guys and everyone else is potentially the bad guys.
or you could just say" I've never wanted to play the loser. I'm a winner. "He may be old, but boy can he be pithy when he wants to be.... "
Well, so what about an alternate history game where the Nazis actually win?" @Claude said:
" I've never wanted to play the loser. I'm a winner. "Well said sir! My sentiments exactly. "
@Rockanomics Well, the iron cross was simply the insignia of the Wehrmacht. It still is used today by the Bundeswehr.
Red Orchestra: Heroes of Stalingrad is set to come with a single-player campaign, unlike its predecessor which only had multiplayer. Granted, the two sides available on the game are the German and Soviet armies, since it focuses on the Battle of Stalingrad.
Besides this, I know of no other FPS games that allow you to play as an Axis soldier.
" @02sfraser said:Well then the world loses. There is no winner with the Nazi's I don't really want to play a game that has such a horrible twist on history.Well, so what about an alternate history game where the Nazis actually win?" @Claude said:
" I've never wanted to play the loser. I'm a winner. "Well said sir! My sentiments exactly. "
I would play one if the context is right. If I'm just another German or Japanese soldier fighting so that my friends and I can get home safely sure.
Really wasn't a tie." @Vorbis said:
" @02sfraser said:That was a tie. Still pretty funny. "" @Claude said:That doesn't stop people playing Vietnam games. "" I've never wanted to play the loser. I'm a winner. "Well said sir! My sentiments exactly. "
" @Claude said:Shh, they like to believe it was a tie because they don't like losing.Really wasn't a tie. "" @Vorbis said:
" @02sfraser said:That was a tie. Still pretty funny. "" @Claude said:That doesn't stop people playing Vietnam games. "" I've never wanted to play the loser. I'm a winner. "Well said sir! My sentiments exactly. "
you wouldn't be a Nazi...just a German soldier.
99% of gamers would not even understand why you make that distinction.
...as long as it's handled appropriately.
There is almost no video game that handles its respective topic "appropriately" or in any other way mature. The medium is far, far away from that.
"YOUR KIDS CAN PLAY AS A NAZI THIS IS DISGUSTING"
.. and then there is that.
That being said, as German I enjoy my heaps of virtual nazi scalps as much as any other dude.
" @Jazz said:Aye, you're right there. In reality everyone thinks they're the good guy in their own story. I'm sure Hitler and Stalin thought that as well...and nobody wants to play as the bad guy...Well most people don't. ..but I was really talking specifically about Western fictional trends in relation to games and why we never get to play as the 'bad guy' per se, especially in FPS games..perhaps i did get a bit too general. My point was that America, with Hollywood, really is the dominant force in fictional realities around the world, and has been for 80 years or so. It's dominance has allowed it to influence the way people view what is right and what is wrong. If every movie depicts Americans as the good guys and Russia (for instance) as the bad guys..anyone who isn't Russian and watches these movies will eventually begin to believe it after enough repeated viewings. Sure, thats an example from the 1960s but if you asked someone randomly who were the good guys and who were the bad guys in the Cold War, most would give a pro US response." @themangalist:I'd have to disagree, generally. I mean you're right, but it certainly isn't limited to America or western cultures. Let's take a look at the feudal period of Japan for example. Tokugawa Ieyasu probably thought he was the good guy and the other daimyos were the bad guys, and had all his vassals believe that too. Believing you're the good guy and need to win certainly isn't limited to Americans or western culture. "
This is something that I'd tend to consider as well. I'm not American, but I'm white so perhaps my view of this is skewed in some cases.
I think there's a problem with western trends to assert that THEY are the good guys, and everyone else is evil/misguided/stupid. It also ties into the decision for nearly every major western game having a male American protagonist. I wonder how well people would have reacted to Desmond Miles being a Korean Woman instead of an American Male.
Since the major market in the west is America it's not surprising that this is the case...people need to connect with the character, and the easiest way to do that is to create the idealised staple action hero for that country. Japan does the same thing with it's anime archetypes in videogames. Hollywood also has a lot to do with this, but i'll be here all day if we start discussing archetypes in modern fiction.
This also ties into the need for players (gamers? those who play videogames? Whats the accepted word here..gamers sounds rather insulting to me..) to feel like they are the 'good guy'. Standing up for truth and justice, and god help us all, the American way. It's programmed into us from a young age that the good guys win and the bad guys lose, and that Americans are the good guys and everyone else is potentially the bad guys.
or you could just say" I've never wanted to play the loser. I'm a winner. "He may be old, but boy can he be pithy when he wants to be.... "
A large part of America's dominance in the last century had to do with Hollywood....and the writers of videogames borrow wholesale from the movies. Whether intentionally or not, they reinforce their own national identity and propaganda through those Archetypes.
Now, as you pointed out, all countries do this to a lesser or greater extent, America however, with Hollywood and a large amount of other media outlets, has the controlling..hmm..share in this. Dissemination is further afield than other markets. The major blockbusters get translated into a myriad of languages and are seen round the globe...but there isn't as much that English speaking nations get in return. If you know where to look, you might have some luck with some of Korean cinema's gems or..heaven forbid...the latest shounen rubbish from Japan, but for the average Tom, Dick or Harry in the west, they won't have a clue beyond dudes with glowing spiky hair.
Gah..off track again. Sorry.
TLDR: Western fiction, especially that created by Hollywood, is so prevalent in the modern world that the ethos behind it has seeped into the mass consciousness. This ethos, in general, reinforces the belief that, to put it crudely, 'West is best'. What started off as propaganda during the war years became the basis of action fiction of that period..and so it remains. This is true of other cultures, but it's more pronounced from America due to the dissemination of these types of movies throughout the world.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing..I'm just saying that is how I understand it to be.
I sure would.
Well actually not just a flimsy soldier but some kind SS guy!
Tired of always being the "hero" in these games, oh and the Americans too, I guess
Sure, I think we need a game or movie or whatever like that. One that's told in a truthful way.
Unfortunately no super power country's media source would be okay with that.
The first fps to have a proper german SP campaign(to my knowledge), will be Red Orchestra: Heroes of Stalingrad
Its a very ballsy move by the developer, this is pretty different from an rts or class based MP game. Do consider though, most German soldiers were not Nazies.
If they treat it with historical respect, it can be very good indeed.
I think a really good story could be made about a normal German soldier, who is just fighting for his country, and in between loading screens you could here him sending letters to his wife, and so this is a character you really feel for, but it's also sad because you know he's going to lose at the end. If it could be really well written, you could have a seriously good game on your hands.
I definitely want to play as a Nazi all the way up from Hitler Youth to SS Officer. I want to see the brainwashing portrayed that caused the burning of books that didn't think in the way of the leader and be taught that jews were animals and not like us so killing them was a favour like treading on a three legged ant.
Sim Nazi could see you as commandant in control of a prison camp where you had to budget for food, cigarettes (keeps up guard morale, especially when traded for sexual favours) and that all important gas bill. Make sure those bulldozers are kept maintained! Theyre's nothing fun about filling a mass grave by hand.
Damn I love those MP40s.
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