Ghost of Tsushima - Reviews

@efesell: Really? Well even so, the reception out there has been much more positive in general. Kotaku have an article up detailing a few Japanese publications that are heaping praise on the game.

Surprisingly even for it's authenticity, seeing as some western reviewers seem to be totally unconvinced on that front.

@alex

Regarding the "authenticity", Kotaku just put up an article quoting Japanese game press about it being authentic and not out of place the way all the Hollywood movies set in Japan are. I totally get the caution but I don't understand Alex's declaration when Japan seems happy with it. Of course there will be dissenting opinions though.

Japan is not a monolith, like every other group on the planet. I am sure there are a variety of opinions that go beyond the very limited subset of Japanese Game press. You will find people in Japan that defend the Last Samurai as celebrating Japan's history. That doesn't make that movie any less fantasy that it is.

Edit: Also, as several people have pointed out, including Austin Walker, the Katakana and haiku did not exist in the era of history that this game takes place in. Along with a lot of other stuff. This game is very much Japan as filtered through Samurai films, which is a fictional version of Japan's history that fictionalizes the samurai class into these honorable servants of the people.

I think it simply comes down to how much you want a game that reflects actual history vs an entertaining samurai flick. I don't think there's any reason to specifically get upset that it's not an accurate representation of Japanese history. It's obviously not inherently offensive to Japan, and there's a market both in Japan and the west for stylized and embellished samurai inspired media. But it's also fine if that's not what you want from the game. Just don't make it into a bigger deal than it is.

@plan6: Which just may be the primary disconnect here in that we may be abnormally concerned about how historical this game that was always upfront about not being historical is.

@efesell: Famitsu gave Nintendogs a perfect 40. That's all I need to know about them.

EDIT: RE6 got 39. Huh, interesting.

@theonewhoplays: Yeah I dunno I just feel like I have long heard people clown on Famitsu for their 40/40s.

My impression of Famitsu is that they were once very respected and perfect scores were rare and coveted. But now they kinda hand them out like candy and they don't mean much anymore.

They have always been very upfront about this not being a history sim so if anyone's going into this expecting 100% historical accuracy that's on them frankly. I don't get why so many are so keen to nitpick it for historical inaccuracies in the west when that was never the point. I'm pretty sure historically there was never a Samurai that killed hundreds/thousands of Mongolians but this is a video game and you have to suspend your disbelief at least a little.

I'm sure some Japanese folk won't agree with the authenticity of the game but I've yet to see it, so far all the complaints on that front have been from westerners. They've clearly managed to make the game thematically and culturally appropriate according to those that are in a better position to judge these things and that's something to be celebrated and praised.

Well done Sucker Punch, you nailed it!

Anybody know if there are embargo restrictions keeping them from doing a Quick Look or if they just haven't gotten around to it yet/aren't interested in covering the game that way?

@hatking: I'm pretty sure they can show anything from the first ~half of the game now. It doesn't seem like anyone on staff is really enjoying it and they don't QL everything so maybe they won't anyway but I'm almost certain there are no restrictions preventing them from doing so in some form.

@efesell: I don’t think it is much of a disconnect. As someone who grew up in the japan obsessed 80s and 90s, the version of Japan people had in their heads looked a lot like what is depicted in Ghost. But as we got older, we realized the version of Japan we were fed was a whole lot of nonsense peddled by people in the US who were more interested in selling the idea of Japan in commercial products.

It is sort of thinking that Chinese restaurants in the US are a good place to learn about the culture of China. When the reality has more to do with the US abusing Chinese immigrants than anything else.

@plan6: You know who knows best about the culture of Japan? Yep, western games journalists.

@plan6: I just think , even if they obviously don’t represent everyone, it’s a little weird to do a sort of well actually towards Japanese games press actually praising the depiction.

@someoneproud: and people posting on video game forums are a good judge of which sources to trust on the cultural authenticity of this new video game release. Video games, the bastion of cultural accuracy in media.

I'm honestly mixed on it personally. I have $22 in PSN credit and might pull the trigger on a standard edition but the way Jason and Brad described the early goings of this game sort of turned me off. I can also get this sort of experience already with open world hack and slash games that don't have the samurai theme or just play Nioh 2 for my samurai fix.

The game does look pretty as all hell though.

@efesell: I would do the same thing for any enthusiast press reporting on the accuracy of any media, regardless of country.

Or to put it another way, I would say that any publication claiming LA Noir was an authentic depiction of California in the 1950s is full of shit.

@plan6: I think anyone can recognise that Japanese sources are better equipped to judge what is authentic to Japanese culture and what isn't. Same as anyone can recognise that the sea is wet, it's self evident and obvious duder.

It's strange that you should be so opposed to their opinions and perspectives and arrogant of you to presume you know better than people that have had to live with western bastardisations of their culture first hand.

@plan6: I think we’re just stuck on history versus tone here.

Let’s be clear, the source of this discussion was Alex saying he couldn’t help but feel that this game is a Western interpretation of what they believe Historical Japan was like. And that is because the game traffics on many of the tropes popularized in the US by samurai films that made their way here.

@efesell said he didn’t understand Alex’s concern because “Japan seems fine with it” by citing Famitsu featured by Kotaku. And I responded that Japan is not is not a monolith and their are many views. One video game publication does not represent “Japan being fine with it.”

To be blunt, this isn’t a problem for Alex or folks like myself that point out this game looks a lot like an unfilteredversion of westernized views Japan we saw so much of in 80s and 90s media. The rush to invalidate this critique or concern is really the problem of people who are, for some unknown reason, bothered by it.

Would just like to clarify that I haven’t engaged with Alex’s opinions whatsoever and definitely did not introduce Famitsu into that convo.

@plan6: I'm not bothered with you feeling that way but apparently the vision of historic Japan you grew up with and the vision of historic Japan that actual Japanese folk have aren't as different as you thought, in which case how is it a problem? It seems pretty petty to complain about is all.

I get why people might prefer historical accuracy but to expect it from a game that has always been marketed as being inspired by Samurai in Japanese film and media and not Japanese history also seems real petty and an untenable position tbh.

EDIT: Also, it's not just one Japanese publication, so far it's EVERY Japanese publication. They don't represent everyone but there is a clear pattern of praise from Japan.

Honestly, I think it was just a poor choice of words due to typing fast on the internet. The phrase “Japan is fine with it” is a bit hyperbolic and gives Famitsu a bunch of undo authority, but pretty standard for the internet short hand. If you had just said “Game critics in Japan are saying they didn’t notice westernization it Japan in the game” it would have come off fine.

@someoneproud It is more that the version of Japan was filled with eastern mysticism and exoticism, rather than it just being a nation of people. It imparted a lot of “cultural truths” about Japan get dangerously close to racial stereotypes. I would put it akin to thinking mob movies represent Italian American culture. As someone who is married to an Italian American, she will tell you that the stereotypes are gross oversimplifications that have a sliver of truth to them.

GoT being western interpretation of historical Japan seem to be a really odd criticism considering its trying so hard to be a Kurosawa movie. What are people seeing that makes them think so?

@plan6: It seems I should have chosen my words better and cited more sources for the Japanese reception in my first post. I can accept that, I never really intended to start an argument from it so I definitely fucked up.

@csl316: For me it was Far Cry 3 that made me say enough is enough

Just out of curiosity - I'm not really that familiar with Kurosawa's films as I was never that into the classic "samurai cinema" but how realistic are his portrayals of samurai in those films? Are those movies authentic or did they just create incredible atmosphere? I think the only experience I have with them is watching maybe about 40 minutes of Ran about a decade ago but was too young to appreciate it then.

@humanity: I doubt they're all that accurate to real Samurai, the ones I've seen have leaned into the heavily romanticised idea of a Samurai eg. heroic warrior fighting for the downtrodden.

They definitely feel like they are more focused on fitting cool shit into that framework rather than being informational period pieces but I don't know enough to know whether the more granular weapons/buildings/society etc. stuff is period accurate tbh.

@humanity: The defining feature in Kurosawa films is movement lots of people on screen and weather, samurai are not really realistic but scenes are very dramatic.

Akira Kurosawa Composing Movement

@thepanzini: @someoneproud: I only ask because it seems like whenever people in the West speak of Samurai authenticity they are basing a lot of it, as in the case of Ghosts, on how closely they resemble Kurosawa movies. The bar seems to be "if this elicits Kurosawa vibes then we have succeeded" so if thats what they were going for, to replicate this famed directors style via game, then I guess they succeeded. If they were aiming at realistically replicating feudal Japan then I guess they didn't do a great job.

Sucker Punch, and many people in this thread, have all confirmed and reiterated recreating this style of cinema was their goal from the outset.

@humanity: I would hope the former is what they intended at least. The portrayal of samurai in this game is probably closer to what it will be a couple hundred years later, since that is the pop culture image of the samurai.

@humanity: Yep. Kurosawa vibes is 100% what they were going for, they've worn their inspiration on their sleeve throughout and they have a mode called "Kurosawa Mode" with B&W film visuals and demixed Japanese only audio to more closely resemble the look & sound of the older movies.

GoT was always meant to be an homage to the more romantic/populist cinematic depictions of Samurai, specifically Kurosawa ones and it does seem like they've pulled it off.

@someoneproud: @efesell: Well thats good for them! I told myself I would wait for a sale down the road.. but honestly with no new games on the horizon I might dip in. I just wanna know how the game performs on a standard PS4.

EDIT: Incidentally I hate the fact that with these half-step consoles I now have to check if a console game will "run well" on my model. The entire idea behind consoles was to eliminate this exact issue.

@humanity: That's my main concern tbh, I was always sold on the premise but my base PS4 is getting old and it made some real nasty noises all the way through God of War so I hope Ghost doesn't melt it.

Luckily I'm not all that sensitive to frame drops and stuff so it'd have to be pretty egregious to ruin my time with it but god I'll be disappointed if I can't play it properly without putting down a bunch of money on an otherwise unnecessary upgrade...

EDIT: I also hate that this is a concern these days. Fuck half step consoles.

@someoneproud: Well in precise action games frame drops are a real problem. Sekiro is a completely different playing game on consoles and on PC - and I played it on XB1X and it still had some frame issues that made parries on certain bosses difficult to time. Since this game also has a timing specific combat system I need to know it's going to run at least at a steady 30 FPS. Naught Dog knows some black magic because Last of Us 2 looked amazing on my base PS4 and ran really well with basically no noticable framedrops at all. The last Sucker Punch game I played was Infamous Second Son and that game looked real great at launch and ran at a variable framerate between like 30 and high 40's so maybe this is also going to run well?

As many have said here, definitely seems like a strong case for "deciding which part of a review will matter most to you."

Personally, I have steered clear of the super-formulaic Ubisoft-style open world checklist games for a while now, so going back to the genre in a game that has a more unique setting and style seems fine by me.

I usually put on podcasts or watch something else while I do the non-story parts of an open-world game anyway.

It's a big love letter to Samurai movies from everything I've seen as someone familiar with the genre. Seems like they nailed that. Even the tone and nature of combat looks like samurai movies.

The depiction of Samurai in his films isn't all romantic or anything, see movies like Ran and Throne of Blood if you think that. And across the genre it certainly was not (gotta plug my favorite Sword of Doom).

But in some cases yes it's quite similar to depictions of cowboys you see in many western movies. The romanticized idea of the warrior dispensing justice and that high level of skill being able to carry the day.

And along that line in the West most people generally do the same with basing their ideas of history off movies about western history as well lol. You see it a lot.

Anyways, it seems like they hit their target. I don't think they were trying to make a samurai version of Kingdom Come: Deliverance.

I have not played this so I have no opinion about its story or historical accuracy. That said, it seems completely fine to base this on the *idea* of feudal Japan rather than the historical reality. To me it's like complaining that western games are based on King Arthur stories rather than historical reality. (Although now that I think of it, I can't think of many RPGs that take place in historical European medieval settings rather than fantasy worlds.) Certainly most Japanese games that take place in feudal Japan are not realistic, and they're not subjected to much scrutiny.

I think it makes sense to stick with Kurosawa-influenced samurai tropes as a base, but I'd like to see a lot of actual historical Japanese locations/culture/folklore as seasoning. I'd love to learn more about Shinto, for example - learn about the mythology, visit realistic shrines and temples, maybe catch a glimpse of what ceremonies like weddings and funerals looked like, etc. If the game doesn't have any of that cultural milieu it seems like a wasted opportunity.

Eh? What aesthetic did you have in mind / where did you think it could be placed?

I think it's possible to acknowledge that Americans are generally fine with romanticized versions of our history; Japanese people are also generally fine with romanticized versions of their own history. It's kind of how people in general operate.

If you're really interested in historical accuracy, read a book or do some research. It seems silly to expect a game to be historically accurate.

This seems to perform very well on a base PS4, for those wondering. It even has downright solid loading times.

@efesell: Yeah it's been running great for me, fan's not been noisy either which is nice.

@efesell: yah I just watched the Digital Foundry video and it seems solid. All I needed to hear was that it performs better than Assassins Creed which was a performance low point for my PS4

Listened to the first 10 minutes or so of The Besties (Justin/Griffin McElroy, Russ Frushtick and Chris Plante) on my way in to work this morning and I was a bit taken aback by how put off by this game they were, especially the opening bit. I think it was Russ that said the intro's graphics looked like God of War 2? I feel like that man needs a new TV, 'cause...woah! I only just got to the point where the world opens up last night before I had to go to bed, but I would not say that this game is lacking in performance at all.

@nodima: Yeah I really don't know what he could mean by that to be honest. The models maybe? This game is beautiful otherwise.

appreciate that. I will be playing it there at some point so good to know.

Seems good but not quite great. Going to wait for the price to drop on this in the coming months and pick it up then.

@nodima: everything about the intro and the first few hours of the game visually speaking is stunning. It looks like they are following the Guerrilla Games philosophy of sweetening every setting and landscape in ways that might not be naturally possible.