I'm a little worried about MGSV

After going back and going over all the audio tapes from Peace Walker and Ground Zeroes, I'm a little worried about the direction that Kojima is going in. If there's one thing Kojima isn't overflowing with, it's tact, and I'm not sure if MGS is the right platform for some of the issues he's been inserting. We can all shake our heads and laugh at the creepiness of 4 where most of the women don't wear bras and are wearing shirts open to their stomachs and the incessant ass shots after every boss fight, but the Peace Walker and Ground Zeroes stuff is just disturbing and appears to be so just to be disturbing.

I'm going to post some minor spoilers from the audio logs but I'll block out stuff that's actually important to the story.

In Peace Walker you can zoom in the camera during cut scenes to see the women's underwear. Okay, I can put that in the shake my head and laugh category, but then pretty much everything else with Paz is just wrong. A lot of her diaries just come off as erotic fan fiction. By listening to her diaries, you find out she was sexually assaulted by Strangelove, Miller attempted to cure her cold by removing his pants, and she had a front row seat for a Boss-Miller nude shower fight. Throughout all of this, everyone thought she was like 12. And then at the end, Paz's reveal as a double agent means she has to strip down to her underwear to pilot Zeke?

And then in Ground Zeroes, there's the infamous tape 4 and the hidden bomb. And now in Phantom Pain, they're going to be tacking child soldiers?

I'm not saying any of these subjects should be off limits for games, but Kojima has not shown himself to be capable of handling adult subjects in a mature manner, and when he puts that stuff into his games in the way that he does, it kind of ruins them for me.

This isn't so much a Kojima thing as it is a japanese thing.

Many things that are considered taboo or difficult in western fiction is much more acceptable over there. Such as rape, school shootings or simply having everyone die. While showing visual decapitation is a big no-no. Something that might seem pretty tone-deaf in the west is not really thought much of in-country; and vice versa.

I think everyone thought she was 16, doesn't make it that much better though. I usually just go into it remembering that its a game from japan and their culture is very different then most. I'm also confident that child soldiers and all that will be the most maturely handled parts of the game. It's looking like it is going to be brutally honest about it all too which will make a lot of people uncomfortable. I'm excited for the inevitable controversy to come from this game that everyone makes a big deal about. Will certainly be interesting.

Not to toot my own horn, but feel free to peruse this topic I made like a zillion years ago about the prisoner torture in GZ/TPP.

http://www.giantbomb.com/metal-gear-solid-v-the-phantom-pain/3030-40796/forums/i-m-worried-about-the-prison-camps-in-the-phantom--1469703/#43

As for the B&Bs, Kojima didn't even want them in suits, he wanted them to be naked but that was cut for rating purposes. They were mocapped nude anyway.

Maybe we should be disturbed by the child solider stuff. It's not a nice thing to think about, and sugar coating it would do a disservice to a serious issue. Controversy, regardless of the reason, will get people talking. Even if people are more focused on how he handled it rather than the issue being handled, it's more than most games can say for themselves.

you will regret your thoughts and deeds

kojima is already a bad writer who basically puts joel schumacher movies inside of video games. i plan on enjoying the horse pooping mechanics and shaking my head at the hackneyed plot

I'm just going to wait it out and see whatever Kojima has planned.

At the very least, through the side ops in GZ and the commentary that Kaz makes throughout those missions, he at the very least seems to have done his homework on the history of these controversies.

@itwastuesday, is your name a reference to the Street Fighter movie? Please tell me it is.

@adequatelyprepared:

I think having a few moments where you cringe and say "jesus fucking christ, Kojima" to yourself is an integral part of the Metal Gear experience.

I'm always tickled by people saying they want more depth in their game narratives. They say they want taboo subjects explored, and that they think it's important for "games to grow up," and then when somebody comes along and tries to tackle these morally complicated, seedy tones and themes there's nothing but pearl clutching and hand wringing over whether or not it'll be handled "correctly."

1) what is your definition of "handled correctly"?
2) If by some miracle it's a swing and a miss, exactly what is it you expect will happen?

The funny thing about all of this worry wart behaviour is that absolutely nothing will change if it's done badly. One bad depiction of a rough subject like child soldiers isn't going to suddenly delegitimize the very real problem of child soldiers. One bad depiction of a rape isn't going to delegitimize rape. The worst outcome is that somebody tried. Failed, but tried.

And about MGS in particular, nothing in the Phantom Pain is new to the series. Child soldiers have been a running theme since the first Metal Gear. Not Metal Gear Solid, but the first Metal Gear. Rape in all of its vile forms have been alluded to and dealt with across the series as well. If Metal Gear is about one thing, it's about the toll war takes on the people it engulfs. Metal Gear depicts war as a disgusting, enigmatic thing that swallows up entire nations of people, feeding the monster one human at a time. Blood for the Blood God, Skulls for the Skull Throne. The only difference between the Phantom Pain and any other entry in the Metal Gear saga is that this time Kojima is intent on showing and not telling.

If you find child soldiers disgusting in MGS? Good. You're supposed to. If you found Paz and Chico's rape tape in Ground Zeroes vile and disgusting, good. You were supposed to. You can say that it doesn't count all you like, because you think it's cheap or exploitative (what the hell does that even mean anymore), but at the end of the day the performances given by Tara Strong and Antony Del Rio were good enough that people weren't laughing after listening to those tapes. People were disgusted and upset. The brutal torture and rape stuff didn't exist for titillation, it existed todepict what happens in these situations. Rape in war is a huge, huge problem and always has been. If Kojima wants to show it in his game in order to confront the player with the reality of what war does to people, with what kind of monster war can turn you into, then this kind of stuff needs to be shown. It's not enough to just say it happens. Show it, and let people draw their own conclusions. And considering the anger and outrage that the rape tapes garnered, I'd say it was mission accomplished.

At the end of the day there's nothing wrong with not wanting to see this stuff in your entertainment. It's a good thing then that so many games don't tackle these kinds of subjects at all. More than enough to find something else that'll interest you. Like say, Mad Max, which come out the same day.

It will probably end being tonal whiplash the game.

Peace walker was awful in a lot of ways as the op has mentioned but also incredible silly, human slingshot, cardboard nonsense and the whole monster hunter crossover business.

I had no problems with any of those things. Especially the bomb in GZ which I've always felt was people overreacting to nothing. The rest is just Japan and Metal Gear doing the things they've always done. Metal Gear has always tackled serious issues while being goofy and Japan as fuck.

@hunkulese: With regards to Paz, it is stated that she is 16 which I think is the "japanese accepted" age for...that kind of depiction. Although since she lied about a lot of things in Peace Walker, I think she is probably older than that... Additionally, it looks like ZEKE floods the the compartment when it activates, she didn't want her clothes getting wet. Also having someone very passionately talk about ideals and wills while in their underwear is oh-so-Kojima ; )

Hopefully that makes you feel a liiiiittle better?

@oldirtybearon: It's not the use of difficult subjects that's the problem, it's their implementation. Tape 4 was one of the most poorly written and acted moments of the entire MGS series, and that's saying something. There was nothing emotionally moving about it because it was so far removed from reality and just came off as Kojima trying to be edgy.

"It’s like… fruit. Does she look sweet or sour? A man has to know these things. Time for a taste test. Either you take her now or you are strung up next." Does that sound like someone trying to tackle a difficult issue? It's a 10 minute tape of a poorly written rape scene. It's just gross and does nothing to make the scene evocative in any way.

@hunkulese: It does sound like someone trying to tackle a difficult issue. Whether you think it was successful is a different story and purely subjective. That tape in no way makes light of rape no matter how badly you think it is written.

Here's the thing, these subjects are taboo for a reason. With Kojima I think there's a good discussion to be had as to whether or not he can tackle these subjects. Why? Tone is important and Kojima's knack for crazy melodrama and cheeky humor probably isn't up to the task of having these shocking events come to fruition. There's always been uncomfortable moments in Metal Gear games, yes, but there's being graphic to make a point and there's being graphic for shock value. 'Tackling' taboo subjects in fiction is more than having them happen, it's having them fit well with the tone and setting, it's having them make a point (in this case why was it important to show/implicate a character getting raped and what is the game trying to communicate to the player about the consequences of such an act i.e. what does that do to a character and the people around them), and it's being tasteful about it by punching up, not down. Having a subplot about a young girl getting raped needs more care than tossing it into a subplot and saying 'well this is bad and war is bad', especially when one scene has a guy poop his pants.

The funny thing about all of this worry wart behaviour is that absolutely nothing will change if it's done badly. One bad depiction of a rough subject like child soldiers isn't going to suddenly delegitimize the very real problem of child soldiers. One bad depiction of a rape isn't going to delegitimize rape. The worst outcome is that somebodytried. Failed, but tried.

Trying involves effort. Again, putting a rape scene in for shock value isn't trying to tackle taboo subjects, it's just being a taboo subject. NOW, if Kojima can implement taboo themes into his game and have them be effective in ways that are tasteful, then that's a good thing. There's also an elephant in the room due to the fact that freedom of speech isn't freedom of consequence and if Kojima wants to put in his rape scene in his game, he has to be prepared for the backlash if it turns out to be disturbing for disturbing sake.

The Strangelove incident is weird because it's a potentially innocent situation written like terrible erotic fiction.

I would love to see a breakdown of kojima's style as an evolution of the post-war japanese culture. All of japan is stuck in a weird cultural rut that makes so much of what they do really outrageous to outside audiences. It's fascinating and there has to be a relationship between japan as a whole and why kojima is so damn out there.

I'm worried about TPP too but more because of all the Kojima/Konami business. That and I've had a real bad track record lately of being underwhelmed by some of my most anticipated games. If MGSV is a letdown too that's really going to be upsetting.

As far as the weird creepazoid shit Kojima puts into these games, and his inability to handle some topics with tact... I'm just kinda used to that by now. I'm sure TPP will have plenty that will make me shake my head either in disbelief or disgust. That's just Metal Gear, man.

@hunkulese: "[the rape tape is] just gross and does nothing to make the scene evocative in any way."

Really? You think so? You don't think it had anything to say about the characters involved, or about how easy it is for people in authority to abuse their power? To dehumanize POWs and treat them as sacks of meat and bone to toy with? What the rape tape reminded me of was Abu Ghraib, and the horror stories that came out of that entire mess. I can only imagine how poorly written you'd find that scene if it decided to draw on some of the more fucked up stories that came out of there. The truth is that rape by proxy is a real thing that happens. It happens to adults, and it happens to children. The point of the rape tape isn't to "shock" people, it's to show the cause and effect of war, and how human depravity is rationalized during war time. If you find it "gross" that's fine, I guess, but I find it mendacious to plug your ears and pretend that nothing is being said with its inclusion.

@shivermetimbers:You say that it's done for shock value, and what is your basis for this? People say things like this but it always winds up being this vague, nebulous thing that has no real definition. It's like pornography I guess, you'll know it when you see it, right?

When people preach about "tastefulness" what I hear is a need to have brutality sanitized. They want these kinds of atrocities depicted without really depicting it. Clean it up, take out the parts that make people uncomfortable, and present it to the world as a funhouse mirror of a real situation. It doesn't look so bad in that light, does it? It lets people believe that human depravity can't possibly sink so low. This kind of pearl clutching need for sanitization takes away the impact of knowing that these kinds of things are actually happening, right now, to people in less fortunate places in this world. I can only imagine what the response would have been to the opening scene of Saving Private Ryan had it been released in 2015 as opposed to 1998. It's the same thing, isn't it? It shows with shocking detail how utterly depraved and monstrous war is. What it actually does to the people with boots on the ground.

... So naturally that means MGS is disqualified from making a similar statement, from having anything to say on the subject, because the creator and writer of the series likes to add moments of levity in his otherwise grim as fuck video game. You talk about the juxtaposition of heavy themes next to a soldier who shits his pants and it's played for laughs, but what sacred tenet of storytelling does that violate, exactly? On what holy stone is it written that you're not allowed to have something to say about serious subjects and, in order for them to be taken seriously, that you must not include wry humour as well? What bearded old man descended from the mountains and told us that this is the law of stories, and to violate this law is an affront to civilized sensibilities?

I think the problem here is that some people are assuming that their personal sensibilities are what dictates good and bad depictions for everybody else. Maybe that's just my libertarian streak coming through, but I'd rather leave artists to their own devices to see what they come up with, rather than try to meddle and dictate to artists what kind of art is acceptable and how to depict it.

@shivermetimbers: I think implying they didn't put effort in is pretty insulting, especially when Kojima and his team are the only ones I can think of that would even try this kind of material in a game with this kind of budget.

I dunno, I'm not worried. I feel like while the games do often take a drastic back and forth shift in tone, Kojima has generally handled serious moments and issues pretty well...er...well enough at least. Yeah, there are some and pieces that kinda make you stop and go "really?" but I feel like his intentions are always clear and...well-meaning, for lack of a better word.

@jesushammer said:

I agree 100%. There are tons of things you can give Kojima shit for, but a lack of effort absolutely isn't one of them.

I think the problem here is that some people are assuming that their personal sensibilities are what dictates good and bad depictions for everybody else. Maybe that's just my libertarian streak coming through, but I'd rather leave artists to their own devices to see what they come up with, rather than try to meddle and dictate to artists what kind of art is acceptable and how to depict it.

I'll tackle this first...

Of course he's allowed to use whatever plot device he wants in his games, I'm not suggesting he isn't. Again, freedom of speech isn't freedom from consequence. He's allowed to have his rape scene, it's just that if he wants any sort of merit behind it, he's going to have to actually do something with it. It's not unacceptable to have it as it is freedom of speech and I'm not saying 'BAN IT!', what I am saying is that if he wants to make something good of it, he has to be good at it. And freedom of speech works both ways, if he wants to show something disturbing for disturbing sake, then people are allowed to voice how they feel about it and whether or not it has merit. Arguments can happen both ways (and this is good). The problem I have with the libertarian view is that people who view art should be allowed to scrutinize it. There's a difference between criticism and censorship. That's why I feel it's alright to have a discussion here. Kojima has shown that his writing and tone aren't exactly consistent. That can be seen as a good or bad thing. Let the people who see it as a bad thing feel skeptical about his ability to handle taboo subjects. As for me, I'll probably enjoy MGSV regardless of storytelling. I can like something and view it as flawed in moral areas, I have before.

Righhhhhht.....

I think Kojima is a big boy and can take a little criticism (as can all of us). The hell of war and its consequences has been covered in games before for one thing. There's saying something meaningful and then there's saying nothing meaningful. Now, whether this game IS saying something meaningful is up for debate. Saying something meaningful by using storytelling devices takes effort. Again, it's up for debate as to whether or not this something done with effort and skill or not.

I don't want to really defend this sort of stuff, if it was down to me it probably wouldn't be in the games.

But if the inclusion of these very small lewd scenes ruins a game for you, have you considered that maybe the problem is more your end than his? I don't mean that as an insult, but as a genuine question. Most people are capable of putting up with small things they dislike, especially when they're so minor.

I'm a little worried too... a little worried that it might be too awesome.

@shivermetimbers: Just because general horror of war stuff has been covered in other games before doesn't mean it's been covered in the same way by big budget games. Do any of those games deal with child soldiers? Rape within war? Or how about the numerous other things that Metal Gear has covered in the last 20 or so years? Spec Ops is the only other game I can really name that tried to tackle this kind of stuff with a big budget. Now to your second bit. Just because a thing is bad doesn't mean it wasn't done with effort. Implying that is kind of insulting, especially when you look at Konami's work condition scandal. You have no proof that no effort was put into thise scenes. This does not mean you cannot be critical about it, but saying that something had no effort put into it because you don't like it is just kind of ignorant.

I'm just super excited for this huge revelation they promised that would justify the choice for Quiet's attire, and make all the critics of it feel ashamed of themselves. For the life of me, I haven't been able to think of a single reason that would work. If Kojima were to pull it off, it would be a feat of narrative ninjitsu never before accomplished by man.

I'm ready, Kojima. Blow my freaking mind.

So worried about this too. Quite the concern in fact.

A person can only be able to take in so much Metal Gear at a time. I'm scared I'll get a Kojima overload at some point - all the cool things he dreamed up for this thing, man oh man I can't wait.

@humanity: Too much Kojima is like too much SWERY, impossible.

I genuinely have trouble believing at times that the release is actually just less than 2 weeks now.

@adequatelyprepared: I'm painfully aware of it every day. I haven't been this psyched to play a game in a long time. Probably GTA V was the last time I was genuinely anxious about a release date.

Didn't they explain that the reason was because Kojima wanted to make a "sexy" character for people to cosplay as or some shit?

edit: I want an in-game reason for why Snake is smooching all those posters of pretty ladies.

Horniness?

Such spectacularly awful writers shouldn't be allowed to explore the topics PP is going to cover.

Stick to the pooping, relatively innovative yet gimmicky mechanics, and amusingly named characters, Kojima. It's what got you this far.

@twinsun: ok but then why did he keep taking pictures of the commandant?

edit: ah actually it's probably the same answer

These threads are great. All I know is, if Kojima messes up and doesn't tread lightly around child soldiers and rape, I will definitely start my own child militia and go on a raping spree. After all, if a game can make light of something, surely it's not a big problem in real life.

I would not be surprised to see the game get criticized heavily for sexism once the reviews start hitting. The industry has changed quite a bit when it comes to the depiction of women in games. At least, how people *want* them to be depicted in games. It's nothing new for Japan, but I can already see the Polygon's, Kotaku's and Gamespot's tackle sexism as a negative effect on the game's score. Whether you agree with it or not, you can't deny that it's not there. I do agree that the "perv-factor" has been amping up more since MGS4. I think it's fucking duuuuuuumb, to me at least. The whole B&B parts of 4 and Paz, fucking gross. But eh! Metal Gear! It's part of the experience!

I'm more worried about the mission structure than the narrative. I'm still convinced the story is taking a back seat and that's basically all I'm here for.

While I understand the problem some people have w/ sexism in games, nothing in MGS is really above and beyond what you'll find in an R rated movie. You can't slam video games for it without slamming all of popular culture. Honestly, the outrage over sexual content has gotten to a point where some sites just do it for traffic, because it's become a controversial issue. There's an appetite for more in-depth coverage of things like this in gaming, but churning out another "this is horrible and offensive" article isn't what I want to read.

I'm worried about MGS V because I didn't like anything about the way Ground Zeroes played.

I think if Bayonetta 2 proved anything, it's that reviewers really don't care about this kind of stuff if done well and the game itself is excellent.

How can you want a 'tasteful' rape scene if there is nothing fucking tasteful about rape.

It's just a story..

The only thing I'm worried about is playing it day and night and forgetting to eat and sleep :(

@oldirtybearon: I actually agree with most of your points. Rather than glorify war, I expect this game to really dig into how bad a bunch of shit that happens in war is. And I think that's important to do.

And not as shock. If this is gonna chronicle Big Boss's downfall, some bad stuff is gonna have to push him over the edge.

I'm right there with you... I played Ground Zeroes once and after what happened with Paz and the audio tapes and the bomb I kinda lost my taste for it. I think as time went on Kojima felt more and more comfortable putting his darker sexual fetishes into the series. He tested the waters with goofy perv stuff, but worked his way up to the more hardcore weirdness that he's into... I understand there are atrocities in wartime, but maybe the goofy ass series with the cyborg ninjas and mechs isn't the place for it.

I believe Kubrick owned a similar t-shirt.

I feel the same, Ground Zeroes just left me disturbed and not in any thought provoking way, just disturbed. I honestly didn't know about 90% of all the creepy sexual shit in MGS until i saw the giant bomb playthroughs and i've played all the games besides the portable ones. I'm sorry Child Rape and Sexual mutilation are not themes i need or want in video games, especially in a game with horse poop, card board boxes, and drunk monkeys.

I hope the phantom pain brings the series back to a good balance, as i still haven't been able to enjoy a play through of GZ's main story. I also hope they make the stealth more fun