ZeniMax upgrades their suit, accuses Carmack of theft.

You may remember that in 2014 Zenimax Media Inc filed suit against Oculus Studios for alleged theft of copyrighted code and preproduction hardware. This occurred shortly after Oculus was purchased by Facebook, and Oculus responded that the suit was unfounded and suspiciously near the date of Oculus' $2B purchase.

http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/zenimax-files-lawsuit-against-oculus/1100-4927/

Well, ZeniMax has amended their suit with claims specifying John Carmack. They claim that before, during, and after his departure from id Software, daughter company of ZeniMax, to Oculus Studios, he copied thousands of files from ZeniMax computers.

“Instead of complying with his contract, during his last days at ZeniMax, he copied thousands of documents from a computer at ZeniMax to a USB storage device,” the amended filing (below) alleges. “He never returned those files or all copies of them after his employment with ZeniMax was terminated. In addition, after Carmack's employment with ZeniMax was terminated, he returned to ZeniMax's premises to take a customized tool for developing VR Technology belonging to ZeniMax that itself is part of ZeniMax's VR technology.”

The amended suit also alleges that ZeniMax created virtually (thank you) all of the hardware and software that comprise Oculus VR, and that Palmer Luckey was marketed within Oculus Studios to be the "garage success story" face of the product.

Link to GameInformer story: http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2016/08/22/zenimax-lawsuit-against-oculus-now-direcly-accuses-john-carmack-of-theft.aspx

Link to amended suit: https://www.scribd.com/document/321898098/Zenimax-v-Oculus-Amended-Complaint

Well fuck, that sounds like some old school tech stealing shit.

@theht: At this point it's just a lot of allegations. I suppose we'll see in the next few years (given how long suits take) where the truth actually lies.

"Copied thousands of documents" sounds like lawyer talk for "he copied a program or something that had a ton of base files"

It's hard for me to give Zenimax the benefit of the doubt with how many stories have come out specifically about the original Prey 2 development/Human Head.

On the other hand, Carmack totally took work computers home with fellow id Software co-founders to make games when they first started their company kind of illegally.

I would really like to say that I believe John Carmack would do no such thing, but then again, he seems like the kind of guy who thinks that if he made it, it's his and he can do whatever he wants to with it. That is (unfortunately) not true when it comes to corporations funding your work.

I guess the suit doesn't specify that John Carmack made whatever it is, but... I mean... come on. If there's a program that he had his hands on, he probably made it, or at least modified it.

Also this, if he did copy something, it was probably files that make up a program or two, not thousands of documents worth of useful data.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens.

@mlarrabee: Of course, of course. Just kinda wild to see them come out and say "yo, we made that shit and y'all just fuckin took it."

Carmack as the next illusive target in Hitman. Kill him in VR and get the USB stick.

If even half of this stuff is true then Oculus is in a bad situation.

Yet, what VR headset has Zenimax even made with this tech Carmack 'stole'? (seemingly right after Facebook bought occulus and not when he actually left zenimax). These allegations didn't exist until facebook bought Occulus.

If i remember correctly though, he was working with occulus while he was at ID so they could pull a no compete even if they unofficially allowed him to do so.

@oursin_360: If they have a screen that straps to your face in a prototype stage somewhere and there's code running on it that is also running on the Rift then it doesn't matter if we've seen the Zenimax headset or not.

And just when everything had gone quiet about Rockstar and Benzies, this case makes a timely comeback! There was that secretive dispute over the No Man's Sky name but we didn't know about that until after the fact.

Protracted legal battles truly are the perennial high-drama of the video game industry.

I also fiendishly love their allegation that Palmer Luckey was retroactively made a DIY genius for marketing purposes.

@jesus_phish: of course, but i highly doubt they actually do unless it's some reversed engineered oculus code.

He probably took a thing or two that he found useful, yet not very important. Then the lawyers latched on to this so they could squeeze out money from Oculus.

From what we know, and according to good old Occam's Razor, that's the best explanation right now for sure. He was working at id when he started the VR stuff, and unforunately, ZeniMax can claim that's theirs... but Carmack could've easily done it outside, on his "own time", his scope of work for ZeniMax, I'm sure.

It is hard to side with an evil corporation, given the history of Zenimax legal team, but Carmack does strike me as the kind of guy that would just copy all his files into an usb drive right before presenting his resignation, and not give a shit...

If they can prove that he was working on the occulus stuff while still at ID, especially if he used ID's equipment then Zenimax have a real case. And John Carmack fucked up goodo. That would be a really fucking stupid idea.

Reading this thread made me instantly think of one of the final scenes from Pirates of Silicon Valley, "I GOT THE LOOT, STEVE!"

What a gangster scene/movie.

I get the strong suspicion these ZeniMax lawyers also think the company has a world-class commercial spaceflight division too.

When talking about digital copies of files, I have to wonder about the language used about "returning them". They're digital copies. You can't 'return' them. You can delete them or not delete them. You can make more copies or not more copies. But 'return then' makes it sound like the lawyers were busy typing this all up on their typewriters and right now are incenses that they don't have a physical usb stick that they demanded they get back - because that's obviously important when discussing digital files.

The defamation attack on Luckey is probably going to end up with someone going over the archive of the Beyond3D forums and asking exactly what ZeniMax believe they invented and so owned which the community (which they seem to believe is made up of amateur hicks who can't do anything) hadn't already publicly discussed before anyone at Bethesda was in any way involved in an official capacity.

I mean, it really reads like someone playing the evil lawyer stereotype where the only thing that matters is "the win" and making it clear they're in the (ethical) wrong while doing it.

I'd bet most engineers almost certainly keep copies of work code they wrote, not for malicious reasons but just because it's a hassle to clean up, and you do feel some pride and ownership over it, even if it's not technically yours. So yeah I am sure Carmack would feel it was ok, but he is definitely smart enough to not get caught. But if a company wants to pull this kind of shit on you, it's scary how easily they can make it look like you are the next Ed Snowden. But forget all that, when I got to the last paragraph my jaw dropped, they must have some fucking balls to imply Palmer and Carmack stole all the tech from them. It's obvious they are just pissed about losing their top rock star dev and are throwing a temper tantrum over it. Well, there's lots of money on both sides so this will be interesting to watch. Oh and I'm glad I bought Doom when it was half price.

So yeah, ZeniMax might have a case; and. maybe, they don't . Either way that for a judge to decide not us - tedious legal stuff is not sexy.

Either way ZeniMax doesn't have Carmack anymore. And while Doom did great, you have to wonder if three or four years down road if they have the talent to make the next great engine. This latest Doom as a great start, its GOTY stuff, so good for them.

I might even say they don't need Carmack for engine stuff as much as they might have needed him ten years ago. However, when Carmack talked people listened; but when Robert Duffy talks people say, "Who the hell is Robert Duffy?" Nobody at id Software is a "know" anymore, and while they put out a kicks as game it will take years of work before people hush when they talk.

And that's why we love him. While everyone else copyrights code and fiercely guards it (completely acceptable), Carmack is the man sticking to the 1960's hacker ideal that code belongs to all. He scuffled with his ZeniMax management to release the Doom 3 source. And as much as theft is wrong, if these allegations prove true, I think I'd love it. He's like the punk coder who's never cared about protocol, "borrowing" SoftDisk computers to program on, anarchically releasing his beautiful code to everyone.