Any interest discussing the human condition of loneliness in the light of everything?

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tonal

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#1  Edited By tonal

I wanted to share something for those like me who fear that sometimes maybe the human condition of loneliness is too much to overcome, as a whole or even as an individual. But maybe eventually it can be the thing to bring us together. This is basically from a response I posted in a different post:

I feel the right of EVERY human should be to be able to voice their opinion no matter what that opinion may be. And a big one for me is that there are many people that do not see opinions which are not in line with their own as a valid opinion. You absolutely do not have to agree with others opinions, in fact I would say the fact of not agreeing is more important and absolutely natural since not one human being is the same as another human being. Maybe it's my own failing as a human in never being able to "fit in" comfortably with unfortunately next to no one in my own life that brought me to feel the way I do. I work at it some everyday regardless, but this loneliness of being human can be overwhelming I personally believe for everyone whether or not it's consciously in the forefront of their mind or not... and that disconnection and loneliness we all share is what keeps me connected the most with other humans and their opinions when I hear them, see them or what have you.

To clarify more when I refer to this human condition of loneliness it's more of an existential nature, I think the works (the ones I've read at least) of Erich Fromm get pretty close to my own feelings and here's a decent summery on that to hopefully make it less nebulous if you'd prefer: http://multiversum.com.ua/index.php/journal/article/view/133

That being said, obviously I don't 100% agree with all his other views, though from what I've read they do seem well thought out, but that's something else to talk about if anyone wants.

As you can tell I'm not a great writer, but didn't want to say too much since I would love to discuss whatever this may offshoot if it would help anyone feel better, or if there is any interest!

As it's in my nature I'd also just like to say that yes obviously I'm phishing to help myself feel better as well, pretty sad I guess. But I guess like me (most of the time) many people, for whatever their various reasons are, feel like it's the better choice to just not talk.

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Justin258

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#2  Edited By Justin258

I feel the right of EVERY human should be to be able to voice their opinion no matter what that opinion may be!

Everyone has the right to voice their opinion, true. I won't argue against that. However, the internet has brought about a new problem - what do you do when people who love chaos and violence hide behind the "free speech" ideology? This isn't hard to find these days. Such people are a minority, but they are a very loud minority. I haven't participated much, but I have seen a few threads recently where people start with a legitimate position and maybe a bit of questionable language and then very quickly it devolves into an attack disguised as expression of free speech. I'm not too keen on pointing fingers in specific directions right now.

On a more general level, I try to remember that most people try to do good, and most people think of themselves as speaking from a position of justice, and most people just get the wrong information and the wrong ideas from the wrong people. Or, put more simply, most people genuinely think they're correct but are also too stupid and/or lazy to go find the truth for themselves.

On the general topic of loneliness - I dunno, I like talking to people but I'm also the kind of person who can not talk to anybody for a literal week while in this quarantine and never feel like something's wrong.

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tonal

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#3  Edited By tonal
@justin258 said:

1. the internet has brought about a new problem - what do you do when people who love chaos and violence hide behind the "free speech" ideology?

2. most people try to do good, and most people think of themselves as speaking from a position of justice, and most people just get the wrong information and the wrong ideas from the wrong people. Or, put more simply, most people genuinely think they're correct but are also too stupid and/or lazy to go find the truth for themselves.

3. On the general topic of loneliness

1. I agree that the internet has brought us a LOT of new problems. I won't pretend to know the answers to any of them, but I'll speak from my personal opinion which is the only way I can and say that I just can't see how to effectively censor only the problem people... especially when the powers which would make the decisions on who will be censored and how, in my eyes at least are not able to make choices based on fairness on any level. Companies, governments, places with the largest control over our country, etc. only really make decisions as I see it based on what ever grants movement of what they perceive as the most power they can gain. Basically being obsessed with gaining power in any form and I doubt they'll truly let it go if they don't see a way to gain it back if not gain more back in the process, telling the public that they made a change to benefit the people.

2. I see what you're saying here. But again personally I believe that it's hard to say what is "truth". I'm sure large amounts of people consider it conspiratorial, but in this day and age because of the above idea I was talking about with power's only goal of more power... I think finding real truth even on a purely physical level is extremely hard if not down right impossible! As an easy example is just how different one news source reports the same events compared to another, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle... but honestly it's hard to know and very hard to deal with. The slants on every side be it left, right, extreme, internet, TV... just to gain one form of power or another. Also I say "on a purely physical level" to differentiate between physical (outer) and psychological/philosophical or however you want to say it (inner) truth. Maybe not popular to say but for me, where I've gotten to in my nearly 41 years, is that inner truth at the least is basically if not absolutely relative.

3. On loneliness, I'm sure it's my fault for not writing a clearer more coherent post, but I'm not refering to general loneliness, but more a specify idea of the loneliness of the human condition, in which the best I could come up with at the time was to link to the Erich Fromm super quick and dirty explanation of what he wrote about it. It's more about human existence and existential loneliness and how it relate to our culture. Hopefully that makes a little sense, it's complicated to address succinctly and quickly in a forum post. If people want to discuss it more I'll try to find more links or whatever if needed.

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DT9k

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#5  Edited By DT9k

We live in an increasingly atomized society where the true public sphere of the town square and jobsite has been replaced by an ever shrinking set of self selected mirages and the gig economy.

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DocHaus

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Felix Biederman and Jon Bois did a five-part series that ties the history of modern MMA into the subject: Fighting in the Age of Loneliness. It's all on Youtube if you're interested. Here's Part 1 of that series:

Loading Video...

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tonal

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@dochaus said:

Felix Biederman and Jon Bois did a five-part series that ties the history of modern MMA into the subject: Fighting in the Age of Loneliness. It's all on Youtube if you're interested.

Sound really interesting and is probably something I wouldn't have ever found out about on my own, thanks a ton for the link and info!

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tonal

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@dt9k said:

We live in an increasingly atomized society where the true public sphere of the town square and jobsite has been replaced by an ever shrinking set of self selected mirages and the gig economy.

When I first quickly read this, I thought "guess I'm getting trolled". But really reading through it more carefully I can't really disagree at all with your statement. Nicely put! Do you think the biggest part of what you describe is of our own doing, someone else's doing, or more of a 50/50 kinda we shouldn't let this sorta stuff happen to us?

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tonal

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@justin258:

1. I never get why it's so hard to read a book or article (thousands exist) to understand why some "opinions" are radical and removed from places of empathy and the human condition.

2. We can agree treating someone bad or unfairly isn't good.

3. I don't know sometimes I get fed up with discussions masking themselves as just nice opinions on some hot button issue that leaves things so the person in question never has to question their belief system.

1. I think empathy is the key point you bring up here. Sadly what is radical is very different from person to person, but I think empathy as you say would be the real way to hopefully continue to bring about change, or at least one of our best shots.

2. You would think that this is a given... but for me it's so sad that there are SO many people who will screw anyone over for advancing themselves in there lives. Especially the even larger number of people that will do horrible things if they feel like they can disconnect it from their on personal lives. Much like many psychological experiments have sadly shown!

3. Been thinking about this sort of thing for a long part of my life and I'm not sure what would be the best ways to address people who won't question themselves at all. I definitely feel a better educational system that focuses more on building critical thinking skills and much more as well, is extremely important for the changes in our future if we want a better society and would I feel greatly reduce the number of people who refuse to/ or maybe don't know how to look at things more deeply.

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tonal

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Just want to say thanks so far to everyone, it really does me a lot of good right now to be able to talk with you all! My wife deals with this sort of thing in a more "shut it out, I can't handle thinking about this stuff" sorta of way... which is not my way of handling it, so it helps so much to have an outlet to be able to do this and release at least a bit of tension from all this, while at the same time not building on more in our household since I need to talk about it and she doesn't want to. And the very few other people in my life at the moment, sadly I don't feel overly comfortable talking about it with them. Been trying to figure out better ways of remedying this, but I live in very rural North Carolina, but with current events as they are now a long sob story seems out of place.... Just want to make sure that anyone that wants to hold a civil discourse about nearly any aspect of our times.... I do TRUELY thank you from the bottom of my heart, maybe it seems crazy but it really does help so much right now!

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DT9k

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#11  Edited By DT9k

@tonal: I'm from Tennessee. I thought I was from a real small place and then I spent time working in places like Harlen, Kentucky. A very small town. So small it seemed to have its own gravity that sucked everyone in. Places in that area of the rural South, my beloved South, are absolutely afflicted with addiction and poverty and they have had every economic opportunity stripped from them like copper wiring out a trailer wall. They might as well be a forgotten colony on the moon. Donald Trump couldn't give two shits about those people and I'm not sure anybody who held that office ever did.

https://youtu.be/FCOd7fPHmfU

So all the sudden I realized it's like that all over. Whatever we're doing now doesn't seem to be producing results for for an uncomfortably large number of people. And then Tennessee didn't feel so small. Then I didn't feel so alone.

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tonal

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#12  Edited By tonal

@dt9k: I fully hear you on the size part anyhow. Our county seat "town" of Polk county Wikipedia tells me is a massive 995 estimated population, but the retirement town next door is our biggest town at 1612 very close to the size of Harlen. So I know what you're saying about "gravity that sucked everyone in." I live out in the county where the population isn't as "dense". With this county things are different from how you describe the areas you lived in. This county gets the lion share of it's money from the large retirement community. Because of this the average income is well above average I do believe if I'm not mistaken. So needless to say there is a lot of push and pull between different types of people here. But I think because we are so small, not a lot of real clash or representation in a lot of different ways is seen out and about.

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tonal

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#13  Edited By tonal

@dochaus: Even though I've never watched a single MMA fight, this was very interesting angle and way of presenting it. The tone, especially the ending was very much what I like to call "Japanese"! I find that most Japanese story telling just in general that I've watched for the most part loves the theme of futility, but that we must find the strength to carry on. Granted with their society it does usually also almost always include that we find that strength by way of the group bond we've made with others to in a way transform futility I suppose. Not that most of the western media that I end up most drawn to ends up too different though, just more of a individualist angle of that futility quite often.