Captain America: Civil War Discussion (Spoilers)

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Zirilius

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So having seen the movie last night I was both impressed with what they did but disappointed with certain aspects of the movie.

I think for what they had to go with they did justice to a "Civil War" title. It's not as grandiose or brand changing as the comics were but they do give you a sense that the conflict is justified. To a point anyways. There's a sense of tension with all of the characters at the beginning of the movie that if one thinks to hard can make your brain hurt but once the Accords go into affect is when the real fun starts to happen.

The relationship with Bucky and Steve is really what makes this a Captain America movie and not an Avengers movie. I really like that this through line from Winter Soldier was better than expected.

I actually have more to say and contemplate on but big points before I forget.

  • Team Cap vs Team Iron Man fight was everything you'd want it to be. complete with people pulling punches
  • Spider-Man was pretty freaking great
  • Ant-Man was pretty freaking great
  • Final fight lacks any emotional weight if you are routing for Tony.. But is a really great fight scene.
  • Zeemo is a very underwhelming villain.
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Sinusoidal

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I thought it was great and was quite glad they toned down some of the insanity from the last Avenger's flick. It did drag a bit now and again since so little information was given about Zeemo to keep the ending a surprise. The movie basically lacked a bad guy/motivation for the characters for the first half. It was also pretty contrived how they blamed the incidents on the superheroes to justify the Sokovia Accord when clearly had they not been around when New York was assaulted by aliens, the entire human race would now be enslaved, or at least the entirety of New York dead because the same government pushing those accords had already launched a nuke at it. I mean fer cryin' out loud, had they not intervened in Sokovia, the entire human race would now be dead. Why would any country want to limit their ability to save their asses let alone the 117 or whatever number it was they made up in the movie? The incident that pushed them over the edge was one where at best a dozen people died or something while they were preventing a terrorist organization/Crossbone from getting their/his hands on an extremely deadly biological weapon that would no doubt kill more people than that. Which they succeeded at... Where are people's priorities?

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wchigo

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#3  Edited By wchigo

Really enjoyed the movie; for the most part they knocked it out of the park I think. Despite the Avengers 2.5 moniker placed on it by a great many people, this was definitely a Cap film.

That big 6 on 6 fight was dupe as hell and man, they TOTALLY nailed Spider-Man. The fighting and choreography was pretty good and I loved how he was cracking wise throughout. "Dude, you've got a metal arm?!"

I appreciated the fact that while it was serious, they managed to inject humour into the movie and it never felt forced. That scene with Sam and Bucky in the VW beetle was pretty great, including the looks they gave Cap after he finally made his move. The whole theatre cracked up and I'm grinning right now just thinking about it.

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dynamix

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Just came back from the cinema. I enjoyed it a lot, but it didn't top Guardians of the Galaxy as my favorite Marvel movie.

To be honest, it would be worth it just for that all-out brawl, what an amazing fight sequence. The movie really won me over with that, although the previous action set pieces were also excellent and I got a real kick out of watching Sebastian Stan say a couple of Romanian lines in Bucharest (that's my country's capital!).

Had some doubts about Spider-Man after seeing him pop up in the trailer, but they really knocked it out of the park with him. Who knew that a kid just having fun would be far more appealing than the mostly mopey/brooding versions we got in the past (S-M2 was still great despite that).

There was no doubt in my mind that Ant-Man would have a small (heh heh) but perfect part and I was not disappointed.

Won't complain about the villain, since that storyline had a clever twist and the main focus was hero-on-hero conflict. After Ultron, I can appreciate them taking a step back. With so many things to juggle, I feel like complaining about minor plot points would be nitpicking, overall they did a good job with it.

Looking forward to everything coming together in Infinity War. I realise they're not the screenwriters, but the Russos are 2/2 so far and they can obviously handle a large ensemble. Only thing I'm slightly worried about is the action. They have a real knack for the more physical practical stuff, not sure how much of that they can integrate with a villain like Thanos.

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UlquioKani

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#5  Edited By UlquioKani

It's been a couple of days since I've seen it and I've cooled on it a little since then. I don't think it's Marvel's best (Guardians is still my favourite) but I say it's on par with the original Avengers. The best thing the movie did was framing the conflict between Cap and Iron Man. They each held a valid position, at least from the outset. I expected the movie to conclude with Cap's position being the correct one and Tony coming around to his way of thinking but even the end was left a little ambiguous which worked really well. Having Iron Man playing the role of the antagonist made the conflict much more interesting and helped me sympathize with him more than Zemo (Zeemo?) or any of the other antagonists in previous Marvel movies.

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Zirilius

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@ulquiokani: Even in the comics this is true. Each has a valid point (register or be free) but by the end Cap realizes what is important is the people and the people feared him so much that they revolted against him and he gave up the fight. I was hoping they'd go the comic book route and have Captain America be killed and have Bucky or Sam pick up the mantle like they do in the books. Even though I knew this wouldn't happen I think it would have been very daring. More daring the Superman dying in BvS for no other than they wanted to be true to the Death of Superman story.

I can say in terms of Superhero vs Superhero movies this year this one is substantially better and agree that this isn't my favorite Marvel movie (Winter Soldier) but its better than the most.

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FrostyRyan

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So Captain America: Civil War was everything I hoped and expected it to be, and a little more.

The story kicks off immediately, runs at a brisk pace, every character in the movie has an understandable motivation and point of view, the stunt work and grounded action scenes are BREATH TAKING, and the CGI action coming from the heavy hitters is spectacular too. It does all this by pulling off one of the most amazing balancing acts in movie history. I didn't bother counting the amount of characters in the movie but it's never messy or poorly constructed.

Throughout the movie, I thought there was going to be a problem because it seemed to be leading up to a switch in focus regarding the movie's "villain"...but it subverted my expectations and came back around in what was probably the most shocking scene in any of these Marvel movies. The movie never stops being about friendship, family, trust, and revenge. It's just as much a captain america sequel as it is a movie about avengers punching each other in the face. Best Marvel movie hands down.

PS: You have no idea how excited I am for those Black Panther and Spiderman movies. Wow.

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deactivated-629ec706f0783

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I thought it was fantastic!

The characters were great, the fighting was great, the hidden plot was great! I also really like the motivations of the bad guy, finally it wasn't someone hellbent on world domination or destruction.

Also it was kinda sad. Seeing some characters we've come to love square off against each other, mostly because strings were getting pulled behind their backs, was sad. But man that fight scene was fantastic.

Loved Spidey, Loved Ant-Man, but Black Panther knocked it out of the park. That actor brought such a cool, dominating and precise feel to that character, I can't wait for his stand alone feel.

I also really like that it leaves what the overall story of Phase 3 is going to be a mystery. We see groundwork of what could be, and know that Avengers Infinity Wars will (most likely) be about Thanos and the gems, but I have no idea how everything else will go.

Will be seeing it again within the weeks. This time in D-box!

P.S. New Aunt May is freaking hot.

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thomasnash

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I honestly thought it was awful. I've been pretty cool on the MCU for a while, but this was the first one I straight up hated while I was watching it.

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Redhotchilimist

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#10  Edited By Redhotchilimist

I thought it was very good. It annoys me so much that the only way we get a lot of superpowered characters to fight one another is by having them all be heroes, but considering how the Marvel movies treat their villains they are never going to have a proper villain team. And they should! That fight scene near the end with everyone just going at it is great fun, and I want to see more of that. But there just aren't any options because they keep killing their villains. We even go to the superhuman prison this movie, and the ONLY inmates they show us are heroes.

These directors know how to use superpowers properly in fight scenes. I half started liking Scarlet Witch just from her fight moves(the gravity was so cool, and she got a couple of good telekinesis moves in), and The Vision actually does Vision stuff this time around, unlike Age of Ultron. Captain America at one point crashed a helicopter by holding it with one arm and the ground with the other, which was amazing. Ant-man is incredible, too! I kinda don't care for his personality, but whenever he's shrinking or growing stuff, I love him. Easily the best parts of his movie, and in this one that's basically all he did. And Spider-Man, MAN, I'm so happy they got him(What's up with young aunt May, though? And an apartment??). Turning half the team into "villains" makes Tony work as a good villain for the first time since Loki, too. He's well characterized, good in a fight, gets lots of screentime and is as funny and likeable as ever. Black panther is just kind of another parkour/martial arts dude, but he's cool enough, and nice enough. I liked him from the moment he was introduced, and he fits the themes of the movie. I've started to really like Black Widow. She's nice in Cap's movies, and she's got a real Fujiko Mine thing going on with her first costume. Shame about War Machine, though. I'm not a fan, but it might have been a good idea to use him more if his injuries were gonna affect me. As it is, it was just another thing that made Tony's day worse. Falcon and Hawkeye felt the most superflous to me, but it's still nice having them around.

My other complaints is that the costumes for everyone except the most iconic ones(Cap, Iron Man, Spider-Man) are very drab and desaturated still. Also, when you tell me Zemo is in the movie, I was expecting less Random Dude and more...

No Caption Provided

It was the right choice for the movie, it worked well and I ended up liking him fine, but don't name him after a villain who's got nothing to do with him. Consider those my only complaints, while I loved everything else in the movie. It's maybe a little hokey that everyone's got dead parents, but emotionally it worked. When Iron Man went into a frenzy at the end, I completely understood him, even as I hoped Cap would beat him. It's the movie with this crew that I have enjoyed the most since The Avengers. Or rather, Winter Soldier. I soured on Age of Ultron, but I already want to watch this one again.

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Jonny_Anonymous

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It's entertaining for the most part but they took the coward's way out in the end.

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s-a-n-JR

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It's a damn good movie. Damn good.

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Quarters

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It was absolutely fantastic. Spider-Man was perfect. Made Batman v. Superman look really rough.

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deactivated-5ba16609964d9

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I don't know if I can live in a world with a sexy Aunt May.

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ShadyPingu

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#15  Edited By ShadyPingu

I really enjoyed Civil War. Like the Avengers films, I think Civil War is overburdened by trying to do too much, but what you get in return - AIRPORT SCENE - is worth the trade-off, no question.

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Fear_the_Booboo

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#16  Edited By Fear_the_Booboo

I didn't like it much, but then I am no a big fan of superheroes movies. I do appreciate though that Civil War is willing to bloody up their characters and exposed them as more nuanced than usual. Stark makes for a great antagonist to Cap because his point of view makes total sense and he stays relatable.

What didn't work for me is that I think the direction is incredibly limp. Most fights scenes are just a bunch of quick cuts and boring cinematography. I'm not super fond of Avengers either, but I thought that Whedon was great at giving the characters big ensemble shot. This has nothing like this.

The chase scene is the worse, a good number of shots there are mostly blurry quick cuts. The airport fight is better. It's great at using each character's abilities, but the choreography seemed mostly boring to me.

So it's OK. It has some good elements, but the action was pretty much boring to me. It has nothing over Fury Road in this department, or so I thought.

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TheHT

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#17  Edited By TheHT
  • Spider-Man stole the show
  • Stole it from Black Panther, who is easily the most bad-ass of the bunch
  • Ant-Man was surprisingly amazing, and an unexpectedly big part of the main fight
  • Robert Downey Jr. as Tony Stark was secretely the most impressive part of the movie

Everything about it was fucking phenomenal. That music when the two sides clash was some golden age gladitorial shit. So fucking good. Cool to see they didn't remove an inciting incident from the story. Speaking of which, they obviously don't follow the same beats as the comic, but it all works out perfectly for the way they've set up the film universe. Captain America becoming a motherfucking international criminal going forward is way more effective than offing him.

Zemo was actually a pretty good villain. Good origin that ties directly into the entire ideological conflict, and with actions that feel appropriate for a non-enhanced trying to stoke the flames of the Accords. And even better, he fucking does it. He sets the stage and then sets Stark loose. That end fight is less straight Cap/Stark showdown, and purely just Cap trying to keep back an enraged Stark. And enraged he is, goddamn. Robert Downey Jr. fucking killed it at the end.

Cannot fucking wait for Black Panther and Homecoming. Nevermind Infinity War. Fucking hell, that movie's gonna make me melt.

Other stuff:

  • Winter Soldier and Falcon are the best
  • Wanda blasting Vision into the ground
  • Vision phasing through walls, Hawkeye, Ant-Man
  • Spider-Man's eyes are dope
  • Everything Ant-Man and Spider-Man says during the fight ("You have the right to remain silent!")
  • Spider-Man swinging on War Machine
  • "I'm Clint." "I don't care."
  • Using Empire Strikes Back to bring down Giant-Man
  • Wakanda!

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Gaff

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#18  Edited By Gaff

I just came from the theatre and I probably should have liked this movie more than I do. There are some great scenes in the movie: the fight in Bucky's apartment and subsequent chase sequence were great, the bits with Bucky and Sam Wilson in the Beetle were funny, the big fight between all the heroes was a great showpiece of all the characters, the scenes with Spider-man, Ant-man, Falcon and Black Panther were funny... But the movie fails in tying everything together in a compelling story, even when all the ingredients were handed to it on a silver platter.

Of course a super group of super powered and mutants Enhanced individuals would be a cause for concern to the world governments. Of course the collateral damage in their conflicts is something worth exploring. Of course Bucky's history as the Winter Soldier would be a great source for good stories and tension between Cap and Iron Man.

Instead we get Scarlet Witch inadvertently blowing up a floor of Wakandan aid workers (after literally sucking out sleeping gas from an entire building) which suddenly prompts governmental oversight, some ham-fisted reminders that, yeah, when people fight, other people can get hurt, and a very sudden Tony Stark - Winter Soldier connection. It's says a lot about the quality of the good stuff that I'm still unsure if the bad stuff actually impacted my enjoyment of the movie.

Some random closing thoughts:

  • The Pepper Potts Situation: I get that you don't want to overload a movie with cameos from previous movies, but having Tony and Pepper break up offscreen just seems superfluous and / or cruel.
  • Martin Freeman's American accent: Oh boy.
  • Aunt May: I, um, wait, what?
  • Wanda and Vision, sitting in a tree: I like this little nod to the comics.
  • CGI Robert Downey Jr: It took me way longer than normal to realise, yes, that actually is a young Robert Downey Jr.
  • "You were pulling your punches": You basically summarized this entire movie, Wanda.
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DarkeyeHails

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#19  Edited By DarkeyeHails

What I liked about Civil War is everything that makes it the antithesis of Batman v Superman. The conflict, for all the size of the Accords, is a remarkably personal one at its heart. The character's motivations are clear and sensible and you can understand why they are making those choices even if you don't agree with them. When they have a big action sequence, you feel the weight of those characters behind it. You feel like the film has earned those fights.

I thought Zemo was actually kind of neat for similar reasons. He wasn't some scenery-chewing, moustache-twirling attempt to steal the show. He doesn't have some overblown, nonsensical scheme to end the world. He has a very personal, very specific motive and his plan addresses that in a suitable scale.

I felt like it did a better job of this idea then the original Civil War, which was a goddamn mess. Even the parts of it that didn't make a lot of sense worked in service of the story since the Russos flipped who is right, or more right as YMMV. So, even as they preach the rule of law, you can understand why the Pro-Registration side keep indulging in attempts at vigilante justice. Or how they often won't see the wood for the trees in the pursuit of "the greater good". These work because they strengthen Cap's argument that playing politics get in the way of the mission. Which it does, since Cap is the only one who actually tries to find out what the hell is going on and who the mystery guy releasing Bucky is while Tony is too busy trying to mollify sleazy governmental types to look into it. Sure, Cap's judgement is impaired because Bucky is his friend and his motives are selfish but he is also ultimately the one who is right. I liked it. I liked where it left the series. Interested to see where it goes.

Also, Black Panther and Spider-Man were great. Ant-Man stole every scene he was in. The smackdown fight at the airport was good.

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myke_tuna

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#20  Edited By myke_tuna

I thoroughly enjoyed this movie. It is my favorite Marvel film to date. Captain America: The Winter Soldier was my previous favorite, but I think this movie marries all the strong grounded parts of that film with the outright spectacle of The Avengers films. That airport fight alone realizes the dreams that I imagined when I first heard about the Marvel Cinematic Universe closer than any other Marvel film so far. It's simply the most fun Marvel film I've watched.

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BoOzak

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Maybe it's unfair for me to expect this from comic book movies but it all felt very inconsequential, it had great action scenes sure but I got the sense like I do in a lot of these movies that nothing of note actually happend. Avengers had a spat, it's fine though they're cool. Just like pepper and stark they just need some space.

Also calling it a "Civil War" is kind of blowing it out of proportion.

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selfconfessedcynic

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I really liked it, though as a massive Iron Man fan it feels like this probably shouldn't have been a Cap movie, since I feel like Stark goes through far more emotional growth during it and may even have had more screen time.

I think the twist with Stark's parents was a bit unearned (it fell flat emotionally, but they did a good job of setting it up) but everything else was fantastic, especially the fight scenes.

I've always been on the registration side of Civil War and honestly the Accords are way tamer, which just makes me more mad at Cap whose stance is now just "I wanna do whatever I want" as opposed to his more nuanced stance in the original Civil War. But that aside they did a great job of setting everyone's motivations and loyalty up. Feel really bad for War Machine :(

Overall, solid movie - about as good as Avengers 1 but not up there with Iron Man 1 / Guardians of the Galaxy / Deadpool.

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StarvingGamer

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I've always been on the registration side of Civil War and honestly the Accords are way tamer, which just makes me more mad at Cap whose stance is now just "I wanna do whatever I want" as opposed to his more nuanced stance in the original Civil War.

I dunno, I think Cap's stance was the same in both. "Don't play politics with me, Hill. Super heroes need to stay above that stuff or Washington starts telling us who the super-villains are." That's more of less the same thing he says to Ross when he doesn't trust having the Avengers at the whims of the UN and all of its members' agendas.

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TheHT

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@selfconfessedcynic: They suggested that Bucky killed Howard Stark in The Winter Soldier (I can't remember if Black Window brought it up, but it was definitely a thing when they met Dr. Zola), but I dunno why no one really ever asked "well why the fuck didn't they tell Tony?"

I guess technically Cap and Falcon were hunting Bucky on the down-low at the time. The biggest thing with that video was the timing of it. Zemo's ace in the hole. By the time they're in Siberia I'd totally forgotten about that little tidbit from Winter Soldier and the flashback at the start, so as soon as the footage started it was just "ohhhhh shit, this is about to get real bad."

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selfconfessedcynic

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@starvinggamer said:

@selfconfessedcynic said:

I've always been on the registration side of Civil War and honestly the Accords are way tamer, which just makes me more mad at Cap whose stance is now just "I wanna do whatever I want" as opposed to his more nuanced stance in the original Civil War.

I dunno, I think Cap's stance was the same in both. "Don't play politics with me, Hill. Super heroes need to stay above that stuff or Washington starts telling us who the super-villains are." That's more of less the same thing he says to Ross when he doesn't trust having the Avengers at the whims of the UN and all of its members' agendas.

You're right - though, at the risk of derailing this discussion, the Superhuman Registration Act was a US Government thing which in and of itself adds some much needed weight to Cap's reasoning (considering in the real word the US was in the throws of being at war with pretty much half the middle east). In this movie it's the freaking whole UN with 170+ countries behind the treaty, which kinda makes it a bit more difficult to not see the right of it.

Almost more importantly, though, the SRA required all superhumans to register their real identities, which is a huge deal vs the Accords which just require the Avengers as a party to be answerable to the UN. Again, on paper there's not much difference to cap's actual stance, but the reasoning is a bit easier to get behind in the comics as the SRA was pretty seachanging.

Anyway, I by no means think that Cap was being a total asshole or whatever in this movie, but he definitely (IMO) was NOT in the right except for when he was actively trying to stop Stark from straight up murdering Bucky out of vengeance.

@theht said:

@selfconfessedcynic: They suggested that Bucky killed Howard Stark in The Winter Soldier (I can't remember if Black Window brought it up, but it was definitely a thing when they met Dr. Zola), but I dunno why no one really ever asked "well why the fuck didn't they tell Tony?"

I guess technically Cap and Falcon were hunting Bucky on the down-low at the time. The biggest thing with that video was the timing of it. Zemo's ace in the hole. By the time they're in Siberia I'd totally forgotten about that little tidbit from Winter Soldier and the flashback at the start, so as soon as the footage started it was just "ohhhhh shit, this is about to get real bad."

holy cow, I'd totally forgotten about that whole side element. I guess that adds to my general take-away of them doing a really good job of setting up the moment where Zemo reveals the truth to Stark.

The only reason I say it fell flat emotionally was because up until then the only time we've really seen Stark be really sad about his parents' deaths was at the start of this movie when he does that presentation at MIT. I may not be remembering things from earlier movies (there's definitely bits and pieces of his memories of his father, but I don't remember him being really depressed about the whole thing). That said, when Tony said "he killed my mother!" I was like - oh damn, he is really far gone. I guess my main thing is just how quickly the turn happened from Cap/Bucky/Tony being in an uneasy truce to suddenly Tony's gonna freaking break some fools. Even a couple more lines of dialogue before shit hit the fan may be all I really wanted... that said, that video was hella dark, perhaps more so than anything else in these movies.

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TheHT

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@selfconfessedcynic: Yeah, the Stark stuff is from waaay back in Iron Man 1. I think they were banking on that scene at the start (and that quip about his dad never shutting up about Captain Rogers) reminding people of the very rocky relationship he had with his father. But as for his mother, I don't recall them ever really talking about her (and certainly not showing her) before Civil War.

And yeah man, that shit was rough. Even the fight itself--after the airport fight that felt almost like a fun brawl--was pretty brutal. The whole movie kinda paints a darker picture of everything leading up to it too. The past movies always made it look like no (or at least not very many) civilians were being harmed, because superheroes. Here it's just like "oh by the way, you've been ruining peoples lives this whole time." That lady at the start who's son died in Sokovia, the Wakandans, the Accords themselves, Zemo. They paint the Avengers in a pretty different light. And they're not really wrong, which is what made it so compelling.

To that end, I think it was pretty smart to have Vision side with the Accords. Funnily enough, that same reasoning he has about superheroes giving rise to supervillains isn't too far off from what Fury said in the first Avengers movie about Thor's actions on Earth being an invitation for a higher level of conflict. I don't doubt that's all by design though, what with everything leading up to Infinity War, but it's still a neat little tidbit.

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selfconfessedcynic

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@theht: Yeah, I thought I didnt recognise Tony's mother!

You're reminding my about how much I like Paul Bettany as The Vision in these! It's always wierd since on paper he's up there with Hulk and Thor in terms of power level, and he doesn't really involve himself too much in the fights in this movie, but I like how they're slowly evolving his character as he takes on more human traits. Oh, and the cooking sequence was great.

Man, in general, these marvel movies are on point.

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crithon

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#28  Edited By crithon

I was shocked at how heavy this film was. I come in expecting "Oh I'm team Cap all the way." And then there's that point near the end where I'm like "you know all this Nobility is just making him even more lonely and into a dangerous place." And also that Ironman seemed to give Cap like 5 times to stop but by the end it's like it's enough is enough.....

the film was great man, I honestly was surprised how much emotional weight they gave these past films. Like before this film I was like "tony is selfish, he made the nukes but yet he's so arrogant to stop them." But the film never shys from that, like the part where Rhodey gets shot, vision did that and Ironman built him. Like Pepper Potts not appearing could have been a joke like Avengers 2, but no it felt like his whole work obsession scared her away.

I actually liked the ending everyone acted like adults, Cap gave up the shield, Tony still kept the phone but wanted to be helping Rodey instead. There's a lot of revenge and anger in these films it's great seeing these guys man up and take responsiblity..... DAMN THIS FILM WAS GREAT!

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Not to continue the endless criticism of Batman V Superman, but this movie had some of the same elements and dealt with some of the same topics, but did it ten times better. The fight between Cap and Tony at the end had weight to it.. I felt awful for the two because I understood and sympathized with their reasons. There was a desperation to the engagement, as well, as if each blow tore at their soul. The resolution was not a half-assed epiphany, either but a clear victory for one over the other. Secondly, the cost of being a hero and the collateral damage associated with taking action for the greater good resonated more in Civil War than Dawn of Justice. It's true that there was more to draw upon, because there've been more Marvel movies. Perhaps Warner's impatience to assemble their own franchise money-machine produced a platform which could not support these larger debates. When Secretary Ross laid out a list of the unforeseen side effects of the Avengers' actions, I understood what brought Tony to accept the Accords. Additionally, Downey did a great job conveying the character's regret over past decisions. He flat out says that Ultron debacle was his fault. It's as if he was trying to punish himself for becoming Iron Man in the first place.

The rest of the cast is exceptional, as well with Spider-Man capturing this perfect mix of awe and confidence. He was so gangly and quick. Tom Holland did a great job and I am on board for the Sony/MCU feature next year. Black Panther ignited a real interest in my to see his solo outing. Finally, the stand out surprise for me was Ant-Man. When he flipped the script on everyone at the airport, I was grinning from ear to ear. Ant-Man and The Wasp has moved into my Top-5 most anticipated comic book movies forthcoming behind Guardians 2, Wonder Woman, and Thor Ragnarok ('cause I'm a huge Hulk fan).

Captain America Civil War was a very good movie, however it did not displace Guardians of the Galaxy as my favorite CBM, nor do I think it is as tightly produced as Winter Soldier. In my opinion, it's the third best MCU movie and I place it sixth overall when it comes to films that use comics as source material.

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Fredchuckdave

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#30  Edited By Fredchuckdave

Eh, this movie was okay; there's really nothing particularly remarkable about it to distinguish it from various other Marvel movies, maybe it wins for sheer number of characters. I liked Avengers 2 better personally and this entire movie amounts to apologizing for Avengers 2 or something. The plot goes absolutely nowhere. There's at least 5 Comic Relief characters, we're approaching Michael Bay levels here; c'mon guys. The movie is funny but it's not as funny as Ironman 3, that flawless comedy. Scarlett Johnasson's stunt double is such a badass! Doesn't she actually have action sequences in Lucy or something? The fucks so hard about her being in more than one out of ten shots. Paul Rudd shows up, he makes jokes, you know because he's a comedian. Not nearly enough Captain America punching random paramilitary dudes, too much Captain America + random hero X. I realize since more heroes are in the movie it'll make more money but c'mon, I don't care about a poorly constructed 15 minute action sequence where heroes disappear for long enough for you to forget they existed and then randomly show up again. First action sequence was alright, last one was good. Villain was fucking awful. Batman Vs Superman is undoubtedly a worse film than this but it did kind of feel like they were trying something different, also Batman murdered so many people! Alright basically everyone (other than Jackie Robinson) murders people in this movie, too I guess that's just a thing.

Spiderman was great.

I may or may not write a review, just don't have much time sadly.

Trailers sucked except Star Wars, that seems okay but I'd rather just have the Thrawn trilogy or something.

Having seen it I have the sinking realization that there's no Mad Max this year, and also no Edge of Tomorrow or Snowpiercer or even John Wick; sad day. Deadpool was great of course but came too early in the year to be enough to slake my thirst. I feel like Michael Nyqvist:

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alwaysbebombing

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Fuck Steve Rogers

Long live Tony Stark

Spider-Man was pretty cool

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Raven10

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I guess my main issue, and one that might get resolved in the future, is that all these nations are blaming The Avengers for shit hitting the fan when only the Ultron events were entirely their fault. New York wasn't their fault at all. Washington D.C. was probably partly the fault of some of them, but by and large was the fault of Hydra, and assuming the bioweapon they recovered at the beginning of this film was something pretty powerful, I feel like a couple dozen people are a worthwhile tradeoff. It sucks. And they spend plenty of time showing the guilt every character on both sides of the argument is feeling. But I can't imagine that 100+ countries would want to limit the power of their only real defense against a second alien invasion. Zeemos blaming them works as he is obviously suffering from PTSD which can make you do some crazy things, but the logic behind wanting to limit these heroes just wasn't entirely there for me.

That said, other than that rather large plot hole I thought this film made the most sense of any of the team up films Marvel has done so far. I guess it helps that the villain's plot was much smaller and they removed the two most powerful members of the team.

I loved Spiderman though. That whole airport scene was great and watching these friends try not to hurt one another too badly while still stopping each other was really interesting and a great contrast to the finale when Stark really loses it. Excellent choreography throughout. Maybe not quite on the level of what is being done in Daredevil, but still pretty great for something so effects heavy. Logical story, well developed character motivations, and lots of classic Marvel humor, especially from Ant Man and Spiderman. I'd call it a 4/5. If they did a little better job justifying why the world wanted these accords in the first place, and gave better reasoning behind the actions taken by the Secretary of State then I would probably have said it was a 4.5/5. That said, they could be saving some sort of reveal about that character for a later film, but as of now I don't get why he was acting so cruelly towards them. I also wonder if Scarlet Witch was allowing herself to be held or if they had some way of limiting her powers as it seems like she should have easily been able to break them all out if she wanted.

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#33  Edited By sweep  Moderator

Really liked what they did with Spider-man, and they managed to do so without all the goofy backstory and hackneyed "With great power comes great responsibility" nonsense. I think this is easily the best that character has ever been represented, and it gives me hope for his upcoming standalone. Which is awesome, because I love spider-man, but he's at that Superman level now where nobody really knows what to do with him any more.

Anyway. Civil War is great.

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@raven10: I think it's more that they wanted to control the Avengers, and invoking the damage incurred during their engagements was a tool to persuade them to willingly fall in line. Doesn't help that multiple Avengers have balked against the establishment and directly against oversight in the past.

Black Window straight up tells Capitol Hill at the end of The Winter Soldier that they ain't gonna put any of them in prison because they need em. Together with those 117 governments, they essentially call the Avengers out on that via the Accords. And not necessarily for nefarious reasons, but because they're an international element distinct from, and above, all established law and order. Team Cap however, is keen on maintaining that independence.

Interesting thing about the way they ended it is neither side technically wins out over the other. The Accords themselves weren't ever really up for negotiation. In the end, those who signed are official Avengers, and those who didn't are, let's say, Secret Avengers.

And yeah, at the end Wanda was in some sort suit looking particularly unhappy.

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jdizzlefoshizzle

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Really great 30 minute chunk (From Tony going to Queens to Cap and Bucky taking off from the airport) inside an okay movie. Also wtf with weird sexualization of Aunt May. Not a fan. Much prefer the old/wise struggling aunt may from the Raimi films. To be fair really not all the much of her in the film to go off of, but gave me a bad vibe. Spidey himself was really really great though. Very distinct from the last two portrayals and, as much as I LOVE the first two Raimi films, this younger, more talkative/anxious Spidey probably works better in this universe.

Another issue is the character motivations (specifically what side each person stood on) were relatively inconsistent as in some characters had very clear well established motivations while others didn't. Specifically, as much as I Love ant-man in general and in this movie, his appearance to help team Cap seemed underdeveloped. It definitely makes a lot of sense for the character (no stranger to going against the law in pursuit of fighting injustice) but maybe a brief antman getting recruited scene would have been nice, and also would have given us more Paul Rudd charm time.

Lastly, why are more character's in this movie not bringing up the fact that Tony Stark fucking built Ultron. Much of the conflict in Civil War seems to stem from the collateral damage in Sarkovia, collateral damage that only happened as part of a fight against Tony's failed creation. I also had this problem in Age of Ultron, it seems that any moral leg Stark would have to stand on could easily be countered by, yah but you let you're arrogance get the best of you by messing with alien technology you were specifically told not to mess with it and then creating a villain who caused enough problems to fuel a whole movie. I don't know, it seems that a lot of people came out of this movie with a "hey I liked how morrally grey it was, I really sympathized with both sides/didn't always know who to root for" attitude. I didn't see this at all, it seemed very clear to me that Cap had the moral high ground throughout the whole film, Tony was just projecting guilt he felt for creating ultron onto the rest of the team. His decisions were less rationally thought out, and more emotional diarrhea.

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@theht: I guess my problem is that outside of Ultron which was very much the fault of Bruce and Tony, none of these events were the fault of any of the characters in this film. I get feeling guilt over the lives that couldn't be saved, but would Vision especially really believe that the logical response is a bunch of red tape? Maybe you argue that Tony is guilted into this and Rodey has always been on the side of the government. But those are the only two I could see backing this. I just don't get Vision and Black Widow agreeing. And, again, especially in Vision's case. What are they going to do exactly if he says no? This version of him is a living infinity stone. If what Wanda did to him at Avengers HQ didn't hurt him at all exactly what does the government think they can do to stop him?

Basically, my question is, and the question that real life governments would ask would be what is the cost of presenting this ultimatum to The Avengers? What if they all say no? Do we want to risk taking a team of heroes and turning them into villains? Especially when three of those team members(Thor, Hulk, Vision) are pretty much indestructible by conventional means? Is the risk worth the potential gain? And I can't imagine over half the world's nations coming to the conclusion that the gain is worth it. Say Black Widow had said no and refused to come quietly. When Bruce eventually returns do they really want to have to tell The Hulk that they had to put her down? You could very easily argue that The Hulk is far and away the most dangerous member of the team. They are risking turning into an enemy the only person in the world that can talk him down. No prison could hold him. No other member of The Avengers nor super villain known to Earth governments could defeat him. They are risking sending an indestructible rage monster into an unparalleled fit of rage by killing the only way of controlling him they have. There are just too many dangerous variables in play for Earth's governments to actually try this unless The Avengers had actually done something terribly wrong, which outside of Tony and arguably Bruce they haven't. And Bruce isn't even there and if they really wanted to limit Tony there are easier ways than this.

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Kazona

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@raven10: Ok, now I want a movie based on your last paragraph. I want to see the hulk go aboslutely ape shit in a Marvel movie. I mean, he was pretty awesome in the first Avengers and Ultron but god damn I want to see some real "HULK SMASH!" on the big screen.

Sadly that will neeeever happen because a) it's obvious that they nerfed The Hulk, Thor and Vision to even out the playing field between Avengers. and b) I don't think the mainstream audience would go for it, no matter how well they tried to reason that The Hulk is, in essence, a pure rage machine.

Oh, yeah, this movie was fucking awesome btw!

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#38  Edited By TheHT

@raven10: Vision basically pulls some Jedi code shit to justify his supporting the Accords, or at least to rationalize his not "dismissing them out of hand." Widow basically sees the political climate changing and sees playing ball as a way for them to make amends for perceived mistakes, while still being able to do what they do. Sam and T'Challa both call her out after what she said in The Winter Soldier, and her response make it sound like she's only begrudgingly supporting the Accords. Less of an idealistic alignment, and more of a "this is happening, we should make the best of it."

I dunno how they'd overpower Vision if he disagreed, but I'm sure any violence between him and the world's governments would be greatly distressing to a being that claims to be on the side of life. For that reason alone I'd see him either standing down or leaving the Earth, if it came to that. During the airport fight you can see him just watching, and only getting involved a handful of times.

I got the sense that the Accords was basically the powers-that-be trying to take back control of the Earth after the Avengers showed up as "earth's mightiest." Because, well, they're the Earth's governments. I doubt they'd just roll over and abate their fears and status (or any vocal communities whom they ostensibly represent) and let superpowered beings like Vision and Hulk and Thor be far and away above any of their contingencies.

To be honest, I don't think Hulk in his current state would quite be able to wreck house, seeing as Tony was able to knock him out in Age of Ultron with his Hulkbuster armor, and nothing about the Accords made it sound like they'd ever straight up kill a hero like Black Widow. That's what the Raft is for. Don't get me wrong though, I'd fuckin love to see them adapt World War Hulk in some form or another. But ultimately for Civil War, whether these heroes are a perceived threat or not comes down to whether they'd fall in line with the will of the Earth's representatives (and not the self-appointed Avengers themselves), right or wrong.

Also, to be clear, I'm Team Cap. I just thought they did a pretty good job of making Team Stark not seem like complete shit-heads by the end, like they did in the comics.

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What I liked about Civil War is everything that makes it the antithesis of Batman v Superman. The conflict, for all the size of the Accords, is a remarkably personal one at its heart. The character's motivations are clear and sensible and you can understand why they are making those choices even if you don't agree with them. When they have a big action sequence, you feel the weight of those characters behind it. You feel like the film has earned those fights.

I thought Zemo was actually kind of neat for similar reasons. He wasn't some scenery-chewing, moustache-twirling attempt to steal the show. He doesn't have some overblown, nonsensical scheme to end the world. He has a very personal, very specific motive and his plan addresses that in a suitable scale.

I felt like it did a better job of this idea then the original Civil War, which was a goddamn mess. Even the parts of it that didn't make a lot of sense worked in service of the story since the Russos flipped who is right, or more right as YMMV. So, even as they preach the rule of law, you can understand why the Pro-Registration side keep indulging in attempts at vigilante justice. Or how they often won't see the wood for the trees in the pursuit of "the greater good". These work because they strengthen Cap's argument that playing politics get in the way of the mission. Which it does, since Cap is the only one who actually tries to find out what the hell is going on and who the mystery guy releasing Bucky is while Tony is too busy trying to mollify sleazy governmental types to look into it. Sure, Cap's judgement is impaired because Bucky is his friend and his motives are selfish but he is also ultimately the one who is right. I liked it. I liked where it left the series. Interested to see where it goes.

Also, Black Panther and Spider-Man were great. Ant-Man stole every scene he was in. The smackdown fight at the airport was good.

Quoting you because you summed up my feelings on the movie the best. I absolutely agree your point on the motives of the characters; they nailed it here. Every character had clear motivations for why they picked their side; and it really enhanced the fights. The last fight betwen Iron Man and Cap/Bucky was REALLY tense because both of their motives are so understandable; you don't want them to fight but you know they have to. It just made every punch really hurt.

My biggest concern going into this movie was that it wasn't going to really be a Captain America movie. There are so many characters, it just seemed like he wouldn't be the center of the movie. Luckily those concerns were extinguished; this was a cap movie through and through.

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lead_dispencer

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great action sequences and the side characters were all wonderful. Spidey, Panther, AntMan, Bucky were all amazing and i cannot wait for spiderman and black panther stand alone movies. but these movies came off with how i felt about BvS. I felt disrespected and insulted because there is absolutely no weight to this "civil war" Don gets blown out of the sky and you think oh he is the first hero to fall. nope paralyzed. then you think oh i guess thats serious. nope mechanical legs to prop him up. And then thats it. sure bucky loses an arm but he survives. Im sure stark will rebuild him a new arm if he appears again.

It almost comes off as being politically correct. The writers and producers basically got together and they said "oh gee guys we dont want to upset any fans for a particular hero so lets just have a tie. " GOD DAMN IT.

This is my one gripe about the movie. Other than that the movie was a solid B. better than ultron but not as good as the original IMO.

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devise22

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#41  Edited By devise22

@ssully said:
@darkeyehails said:

What I liked about Civil War is everything that makes it the antithesis of Batman v Superman. The conflict, for all the size of the Accords, is a remarkably personal one at its heart. The character's motivations are clear and sensible and you can understand why they are making those choices even if you don't agree with them. When they have a big action sequence, you feel the weight of those characters behind it. You feel like the film has earned those fights.

I thought Zemo was actually kind of neat for similar reasons. He wasn't some scenery-chewing, moustache-twirling attempt to steal the show. He doesn't have some overblown, nonsensical scheme to end the world. He has a very personal, very specific motive and his plan addresses that in a suitable scale.

I felt like it did a better job of this idea then the original Civil War, which was a goddamn mess. Even the parts of it that didn't make a lot of sense worked in service of the story since the Russos flipped who is right, or more right as YMMV. So, even as they preach the rule of law, you can understand why the Pro-Registration side keep indulging in attempts at vigilante justice. Or how they often won't see the wood for the trees in the pursuit of "the greater good". These work because they strengthen Cap's argument that playing politics get in the way of the mission. Which it does, since Cap is the only one who actually tries to find out what the hell is going on and who the mystery guy releasing Bucky is while Tony is too busy trying to mollify sleazy governmental types to look into it. Sure, Cap's judgement is impaired because Bucky is his friend and his motives are selfish but he is also ultimately the one who is right. I liked it. I liked where it left the series. Interested to see where it goes.

Also, Black Panther and Spider-Man were great. Ant-Man stole every scene he was in. The smackdown fight at the airport was good.

Quoting you because you summed up my feelings on the movie the best. I absolutely agree your point on the motives of the characters; they nailed it here. Every character had clear motivations for why they picked their side; and it really enhanced the fights. The last fight betwen Iron Man and Cap/Bucky was REALLY tense because both of their motives are so understandable; you don't want them to fight but you know they have to. It just made every punch really hurt.

My biggest concern going into this movie was that it wasn't going to really be a Captain America movie. There are so many characters, it just seemed like he wouldn't be the center of the movie. Luckily those concerns were extinguished; this was a cap movie through and through.

I really agree with you here. I was very impressed with how much time this spent setting up Winter Soldiers story as a continuation from Cap 2. This very much was about Cap/Falcon hunting down Winter Soldier in an attempt to save him and let him redeem himself. The rest of the Civil War stuff just is inconveniently happening at the exact same time, so they attempt to deal with it. The way they ultimately tie Stark other than just the accords at the end to the story was absolutely terrific. The moment Stark watches the video Zemo sets up is easily one of the top character and plot related moments in all of the Marvel movies. It wasn't just a quip, it wasn't just a funny one liner or some heroism, it was a deep rooted serious character moment that built throughout the entire movie. While people can sit there and talk about how PG this was or how it didn't take any serious risks, this point counteracts that. The reality is that these heroes are trying to be the good guys, and the horrors we see from Winter Soldier happened when he was, a brainwashed villain. Which further drives home Caps point of view, I feel, and is how it really makes it a true Captain America story.

Anyway, I thought the movie was really good. I don't think it's as good of a stand alone film as Winter Soldier, but I think Civil War does so much good work in making the Marvel movies that come before it have way more meaning. It's very similar to how this can happen in a TV show. Early episodes are often criticized for their focus on slow character development. But once you see a pay off a season or two down the road you realize all the building they did was meaningful. I also think that the Russo brothers nailed how to do a big epic like this with multiple characters so well. Particularly the globe trotting, and city switching. They made it feel like each 10-30 minute scene was it's own event, or mini episode. Then they would jump to a different part of the world, in most cases after time has passed and show you another event unfolding. But each event was connected, had a through line, or some meaning to the overall plot. Even if it was featuring newly introduced characters. This really allowed the different scenes in different areas to take on many different tones or styles without it feeling out of place in this world. It also gave it a real espionage feel, and built tension well. It was as if each new city was to be another disaster moment that people talk about similar to "New York" "Washington" etc in the video clip used by Ross.

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I thought it was a really fun movie. It's a shame they decided to show the sequence of Bucky/Cap fighting Iron Man and throwing the shield back and forth in the trailers because it was some of the best action in the movie and when the conflict had supposedly been resolved after the airport fight, it left me wondering how they were going to bring the story back around to a fight between those parties.

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I think it's a pretty good movie considering I really have only one fairly minor complaint about it right now, and it's just an aesthetic thing that they thankfully dropped about halfway through the film. Whenever they change locations and they tell you in huge letters that take up the whole screen where the scene is taking place was pretty annoying, it made me think Robin Thicke would show up and make a point about how there's "Blurred Lines" between the two teams.

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all i want from all superhero movies are deep dives on character and explorations of the underlying ideals that inform their power.

this movie might be the best of the marvel bunch. i need to rewatch the original 'iron man,' but i think this is the best they've done in recent years without question.

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So I posted already right when I saw it, but I wanna muse over some things that I couldn't stop thinking about all weekend:

  • The interconnection between the main players. I didn't think back to Captain America 1, and the fact that Howard knew Captain's whole team, before and after losing Bucky. The way 1991 Howard says "Sgt Barnes" as he is being pulled out of the car to be beaten to death is so sad and chilling. And the whole time Bucky remembering everything...
  • I'm really glad the Hydra elements were so small, just their old base and the old general at the start. I was worried that every movie that was a proper Captain America movie would somehow be Hydra living on, and while I have no doubt sects of Hydra are still regaining strength after their Shield cover fell, and other sects were hunted down pre-Ultron, I'm really glad they didn't pop back up in any powerful shape or form.
  • The fucking Raft. I was sooooo excited about the Raft showing up, and it'being used first to hold most of Cap's team is such a perverted use of it, and I really love it. It shows how much enhanced people are feared by all the nations, regardless of if they fight for the world, and I think it really showed Ross's hidden agenda, which has to be to eventually detain ALL enhanced people, not just ones classified as "villains"
  • The cute nods towards Wanda and Vision's comic book relationship were very nice, but I'm glad they didn't go full in on that.
  • Speaking of Vision, I was super worried that whichever side he partnered with would just be the dominate side, since he is the freaking Vision, but I really appreciate that current day Vision is still very conflicted on understanding who he is, how he fits into humanity, what humanity even is, etc.
  • Everything about Tony's side is more tragic then it appears on a base level. I think it is easier to understand Cap's side right off the bat, especially with Winter Soldier being all about government organizations being infiltrated, but Tony Stark's battle has been ongoing since we were first introduced to him. They touch on it in the movie a bit, but if you think on it more, it's more tragic. Everything he builds makes the world more dangerous, somehow. His weapons from Iron Man 1 cause so much harm, his tower meant to be a sustainable energy source is used to open a portal for an alien invasion, his self defense force AI is used to create a murdering super AI, and more. He wants to be the good guy but always ends up doing just as much harm (if not more) somewhere else. And I think this comes full circle when Warmachine goes down. When it happened in the theater, I was like "oh crap friendly fire" but when I thought on it more, the fact that is was Vision, the silver lining to come out of Tony's Ultron catastrophe, almost killed one of his few, real friends. It's such a dire, poetic thing that I brushed over when it was happening. I feel really bad for Tony Stark in the MCU.
  • Since they are going with a younger Aunt May, I wonder who the younger Uncle Ben will be in the inevitable flashback that shows him getting killed. Also young Aunt May is still hot
  • I wish there would have been more Ant-Man. Every scene with Scott Lang was amazing, and seeing him go Giant Man was a huge surprise that has me giggling. He and Holland's Spider Man are both fantastic at cracking wise, I really hope they get a movie working together. Marvel's: A Bugs Life.
  • Redwing as a drone is strangely appropriate during these times.
  • I really hope the future Spider Man and Black Panther movies aren't origin stories. I think Civil War did a good enough job introducing them both and showing us enough of who they are to go forward. Give 10 mins of flashbacks to set something up, then go forward in a post-Civil War timeline. I also want that to be the case to increase the odds of character cameos. I kinda want as many heroes in as many of the movies as I can get now, with how well it worked out. God Black Panther was so cool.
  • Unless it's one of the few remaining origin stories, aka Doctor Strange. I can't wait for November, as Doctor Strange is so weird in his powers and what he deals with it will be interesting to see if they can translate it well to the big screen, while tying it's importance into the MCU and phase 3.
  • Was interesting to see the lack of Nick Fury or Hall. Not even a passing line about them. I wonder if they are trying to position them out of the movies, so they don't have to hire Sam Jackson every 2 movies for about 20 minutes. I have to imagine Fury has some screen time in Infinity War though.

I'll be seeing this movie at least one more time, maybe two if I can find the spare time. I love all the MCU movies so much, and I can't believe how strong they are still going, from Iron Man 1 to today. I know a lot of people get all "ugh super hero movies how lame" but I love how it's all connected, and small ripple effects carry over from film to film, eventually culminating in big grand events. It's really, really fun story telling and I can't wait to stay on this ride for many more years.

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I'll be seeing this movie at least one more time, maybe two if I can find the spare time. I love all the MCU movies so much, and I can't believe how strong they are still going, from Iron Man 1 to today. I know a lot of people get all "ugh super hero movies how lame" but I love how it's all connected, and small ripple effects carry over from film to film, eventually culminating in big grand events. It's really, really fun story telling and I can't wait to stay on this ride for many more years.

There are 3 or 4 movies in the MCU I don't like but ones like The Avengers or Civil War prove Marvel's brand of franchise movie making can really pay off sometimes. Essentially, you'd only have to see Winter Soldier to get ready for this one, (which is completely fair seeing as this is a sequel to that film,) but the people who have seen all or most of these are the ones who benefit the most. As someone who has seen every Iron man movie, Cap movie, and Avengers movie, I feel like I've gained more from Civil War because of that. It's a cool thing. A cold corporate business model for sure, but if we get entertainment as good as this ongoing, bring it on.

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wchigo

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@starvinggamer said:

@selfconfessedcynic said:

I've always been on the registration side of Civil War and honestly the Accords are way tamer, which just makes me more mad at Cap whose stance is now just "I wanna do whatever I want" as opposed to his more nuanced stance in the original Civil War.

I dunno, I think Cap's stance was the same in both. "Don't play politics with me, Hill. Super heroes need to stay above that stuff or Washington starts telling us who the super-villains are." That's more of less the same thing he says to Ross when he doesn't trust having the Avengers at the whims of the UN and all of its members' agendas.

You're right - though, at the risk of derailing this discussion, the Superhuman Registration Act was a US Government thing which in and of itself adds some much needed weight to Cap's reasoning (considering in the real word the US was in the throws of being at war with pretty much half the middle east). In this movie it's the freaking whole UN with 170+ countries behind the treaty, which kinda makes it a bit more difficult to not see the right of it.

Almost more importantly, though, the SRA required all superhumans to register their real identities, which is a huge deal vs the Accords which just require the Avengers as a party to be answerable to the UN. Again, on paper there's not much difference to cap's actual stance, but the reasoning is a bit easier to get behind in the comics as the SRA was pretty seachanging.

Anyway, I by no means think that Cap was being a total asshole or whatever in this movie, but he definitely (IMO) was NOT in the right except for when he was actively trying to stop Stark from straight up murdering Bucky out of vengeance.

While it is the whole U.N., it's impossible to say that the representatives that comprise the U.N. do not have their own agendas. I think Cap explained it reasonably well, in few words, when he said "What if they tell us to go somewhere we don't want to go? Or stop us from going somewhere we're needed?" Not exact quotes but basically sums up what he was trying to get across.

At that point, the Avengers are basically a weapon to be pointed at a target when and if others decide it is necessary. While by no means should they be above reproach or not have to answer for their actions and thus any consequences that result from their actions, having a "governing body" that they take orders from is not necessarily the answer to the problem.

As well, I agree with another poster here who said that the governments are holding the Avengers responsible for all the damages and whatnot that befall Earth. Seriously? So New York was devastated because the Avengers fought against the alien invasion and there ended up being a bunch of collateral damage. What's the better alternative? Should they not have fought but instead let the aliens come in and do what they want and potentially kill thousands if not millions of people?

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Raven10

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@takayamasama: You need to watch Agents of SHIELD. Hydra did rebuild following Ultron but was taken out a third (fourth?) time earlier this season after the most current leader turned on them after the alien Hive turned on him. Hydra is basically done. Hive attempted to turn the remaining heads into Inhumans to fight SHIELD but failed and Coulson carpet bombed the few remaining Hydra facilities, leaving just Hive's home base standing. Once they take him out I can't imagine Hydra rebuilding. The entire leadership is gone. All their funding has been cut off. Their top spies and moles have been taken out, and their Inhuman army turned on them. SHIELD has beaten them more utterly than ever presented in the comics. It's why an ex-general was living in squalor with no real defenses.

@kazona:I don't think they were nerfed. I think Thor is just trying to limit the destruction he causes on a world not his own, and Vision like Wanda is still coming to terms with his own limitations. Hulk has been shown as pretty much an unstoppable and indestructible force so that seems right to me.

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mikey87144

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It's more accurate to call this movie Avengers 3 than Captain America. The story was as much about Iron Man as it is about Captain America.