Do We Have any European History Buffs 'Round These Parts?

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nintendoeats

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#1  Edited By nintendoeats

I've started work on a game project for the summer (very exciting, woo!) and I need a hand. Actually, I will probably be coming back to GB frequently to talk about elements that are outside my area of expertise. But to the matter at hand:

I have to develop a fictional country for the game to take place in, and having a well fleshed out history is very important. I have decided that it will be an island in the North Sea:

No Caption Provided

My current thought is that it will be a former dutch colony called Noordermeer that gained independence after WWII. Unfortunately my knowledge of European history is pretty shaky, and I know that if I put in anything unbelievable it will ruin people's enjoyment of the game. So, does anybody have any thoughts about what general framework would make sense? I don't need details, I can fill those in myself.

Of course, anybody who helps will get a mention in the game.

Thanks in advance, have Batman :)
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#2  Edited By beej

I know some things about European history, but I'm not sure what exactly you're looking for.
The biggest challenge to your story right now is probably the anglo dutch war, the brits and dutch were fighting for control of the north atlantic, the british wouldn't have accepted a resolution to that conflict that left a dutch colony hanging out there threatening the sea trade.

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Jwkokosmakroon

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#3  Edited By Jwkokosmakroon

Hey hey hey!
Dutch history student reporting in!
A Dutch colony IN Europe will be highly unbelievable.....


Just pick a fictional people in the Germanic/Scandinavian culturegroup and start your history around the 30 years war in which your people have  liberated themselves from Holy Roman Imperial rule. Being a protestant nation would very much lend credence to this background. Maybe become an independent merchant republic and write a history of colinialism and a struggle to remain free fom foreign rule. Dutch history may provide a helpful analogy. 
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nintendoeats

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#4  Edited By nintendoeats
@beej: Hmm, that seems like a wrench int he works.

Actually, I might have an idea. What if the British and the Dutch both maintained a presence on the island? That would make it easier for a revolutionary group to take advantage of WWII to gain independence, since there would be two heavily strained powers vying for the island (oh yeah, this story only works if there is already a group on the island trying to gain independence). If the revolutionary group had enough influence, they could theoretically threaten to ally their supporters with Hitler unless they were guaranteed independence after the war. How does that sound
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jaqen_hghar

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#5  Edited By jaqen_hghar

I am no history buff at all ( what do you have to do to be a buff?), but it seems wrong for that island to be a former dutch colony. Would make more sense for it to either be somehow affiliated with the UK, or for it to be a small country founded by norse Vikings. But again, I am no buff, and know next to nothing about anything.

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#6  Edited By nintendoeats
@Jwkokosmakroon: Hmm, you sound useful. So is the issue that Holland would not be in a position to control the island, or that it wouldn't really qualify as a colony anymore since Europe was all quite developed by the 1900s?
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chocolaterhinovampire

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I like European history, but I am a sucker for Cannuck history

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nintendoeats

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#8  Edited By nintendoeats

I figured I was going to have to give more information. It would be preferable that this be a recently formed country with heavy cultural links. This would give me a source to draw from while still giving me a nice gap of space to develop any elements that are necessary to the game.

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#9  Edited By nemt


A land mass being there would have greatly changed the course of history.

Just saying.

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#10  Edited By Jwkokosmakroon
@nintendoeats said:
" @Jwkokosmakroon: Hmm, you sound useful. So is the issue that Holland would not be in a position to control the island, or that it wouldn't really qualify as a colony anymore since Europe was all quite developed by the 1900s? "
There would be no point in seizing control of the island. The Dutch even neglected to 'liberate' the southern Netherlands from Spanish rule because they were more interested in trade and commerce than  making war. Further more why would an island that's practically of the coast be in a position to secede from the motherland if for all intents and purposes it is actually a part of the Motherland. Representation like for instance was the issue with the Americans in the British Empire would not be a problem.
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#11  Edited By nintendoeats
@chocolaterhinovampire: Yeah, this would probably be easier if I went with a North American country, but that doesn't really have the cultural hooks that I want. North America is too far away from everything else, and the USA is overwhelmingly dominant in the region.
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#12  Edited By Jwkokosmakroon
@nintendoeats said:
" @chocolaterhinovampire: Yeah, this would probably be easier if I went with a North American country, but that doesn't really have the cultural hooks that I want. North America is too far away from everything else, and the USA is overwhelmingly dominant in the region. "
You could also go for an Island  near the coast of Italy and evolve it's history as a Crusader state where a Knightly order annexed the island form muslim rule. Evolving teh country as a staunchly Catholic nation throughout it's history. Often coming into conflict with North African states or the Ottomans. Or it could be an Orthodox succesor state to the Byzantine Empire.
Endless possibilities ^^
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#13  Edited By nintendoeats
@Jwkokosmakroon said:
" @nintendoeats said:
" @Jwkokosmakroon: Hmm, you sound useful. So is the issue that Holland would not be in a position to control the island, or that it wouldn't really qualify as a colony anymore since Europe was all quite developed by the 1900s? "
There would be no point in seizing control of the island. The Dutch even neglected to 'liberate' the southern Netherlands from Spanish rule because they were more interested in trade and commerce than  making war. Further more why would an island that's practically of the coast be in a position to secede from the motherland if for all intents and purposes it is actually a part of the Motherland. Representation like for instance was the issue with the Americans in the British Empire would not be a problem. "
I pretty deliberately put the island roughly equidistant from everything else so that it didn't look like it would certainly be part of any other country. Are you saying that the UK would have just swallowed it up then?
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JJGIANT

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#14  Edited By JJGIANT

That map makes no sense. I don't know of any Island states off the east coast of the UK and as someone who took a GCSE and A level in Modern History I never once came across this place.

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nintendoeats

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#15  Edited By nintendoeats
@JJGIANT: ...yes...I'm making things up...It's fiction...
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#16  Edited By nintendoeats
@Jwkokosmakroon said:
" @nintendoeats said:
" @chocolaterhinovampire: Yeah, this would probably be easier if I went with a North American country, but that doesn't really have the cultural hooks that I want. North America is too far away from everything else, and the USA is overwhelmingly dominant in the region. "
You could also go for an Island  near the coast of Italy and evolve it's history as a Crusader state where a Knightly order annexed the island form muslim rule. Evolving teh country as a staunchly Catholic nation throughout it's history. Often coming into conflict with North African states or the Ottomans. Or it could be an Orthodox succesor state to the Byzantine Empire.Endless possibilities ^^ "
Alright, now we are cooking with gas! My preference would be for the country to have gained independence recently, as that would give it the chance to develop a political system heavily influenced by modern thought. However, a revolution could serve that purpose just as well.
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#17  Edited By Jwkokosmakroon
@nintendoeats: 
I'm saying that it will be difficult to come up with a reason for the Dutch 'colonists' to rebel against the Dutch government in the Hague.
Certainly possible but the DUtch republic was highly decentralized giving a lot of authority to the provinces and cities where wealthy protestant merchants were basically top dog. Maybe the island remained Catholic ( Catholics where heavilly discriminated against in the Dutch Republic) and felt they were better of on their own??

Perhaps even with help from the Spanish (still quite difficult because before the Brits kicked us outta the sea we basically ruled it). Try reading into religious sgtruggles in the 16th century and a little about 'The Republic' as we Dutch know our country in this period. 

Anyways send me a message if you have questions, I've  gotta go to a councilmeeting in town ^^
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#18  Edited By nintendoeats
@Jwkokosmakroon: Thanks, have...fun?...
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#19  Edited By MattyFTM  Moderator

The first thing that jumps to my mind as a logical thing was that it would have most likely been part of the British Empire and could have become independent in the early part of the 20th century in a similar manner to the Ireland, but with the entire country becoming independent. I don't know if that's something that seems plausible to you. Being so close to Britain, I'm sure it would have been part of Britain during the years of the British Empire, unless it was already a powerful state prior to that. Your choice seems to be to either for it to already be a powerful independent nation by about the 1500's, or be a British Colony that gained independence.

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#20  Edited By JBird

I have A Level history in england, so far from expert. But i'd say you'd be far better to make it a British colony, historically England had a massive empire and it would be strange to think that it would have colonised far reaching islands but left a close (and relatively large in comparison to its own size) island to the dutch. However it wouldn't be unrealistic to give this island a dutch culture, the islands in the north of scotland already have a culture that mixes british elements and scandanavian elements so in your story it would be perfectly believable to have a island with a mixture of british, dutch and scandanavian cultures. (yet owned by the british) 


What would be really interesting is how you tie this in with post WW2. As i'm sure your aware the battle for britain was a decisive victory for the allied forces and its accepted that had germany won the outcome of the war would have been very different. This is of course entirely dependant upon the existence of the channel. If there was a large island in the middle of the channel it would have massively changed how the war was fought out, control of that island would have been vital for british defence. So in a post ww2 narrative (assuming you kept the british as the winners) it wouldn't be far fetched to say that this island was peppered with british defences and military structures. 

I got a bit carried away there! Its making up history with you or revising European law so if you consider my answer good enough i'd be glad to help you more! anything to stop revising!  
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#21  Edited By nintendoeats
@MattyFTM:@JBird: Awesome stuff guys, British does seem to make more sense when you put it that way.

I have definitely been concerned about how WWII would have played out. It seems likely that the island would have been a majour battleground, which makes it seem implausible that it would be in a position to gain independence. I suppose that if the British had left the defenses primarily in the hands of the inhabitants of the island, they could well have turned on them after the war ended and demanded independence. It's not exactly a pretty start to the country, but I think I can write it in such a way that the revolutionaries remain sympathetic.
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#22  Edited By Jadeskye
@nintendoeats: As an englishman the prospect of an island that close OFFENDS ME sir!

But yeah we were way too dominant around the north sea for there for that island to be colonised by anybody other than the UK. Frankly if it existed it would have made WW2 a lot easier for us. :p
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#23  Edited By mx
@nintendoeats:  
or you could state that, during WWII the country was heavily fought over due to its strategical position.  the country which originally belonged to the dutch, was taken over with the rest of the Netherlands (which went very fast and easy since the Dutch, to save money, disbanded most of the army).  During the war Hitler saw its massive tactical potential and the Germans used it as their primary base for attacks on the UK.  Later in the war the island would become heavily fought over. this leads to the British seizing control of the island. And using it to launch a freedom operation ( like operation market garden).  After the war the residents of the Island demand to be independent after The Netherlands left them out to die when the Germans came. 

hope this is some use to you. 

EDIT:  i do realize the dominance of the British navy at the north sea during that time, don't forget however that the dutch ruled that sea for quite sometime.  And they gained much of their prosperity from the grain trade in the north and Baltic sea 
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Is this going to have a serious tone to it? Because if not, all I can think of is a Red Alert style super weapon made by the North Koreans (Crysis/homefront style North Koreans that are actual powers in the world, of course) to transport their whole country with all of it's weapons right in the middle of Europe so it can attack everywhere. It would be ridiculous for many reasons but it would be pretty cool too.
Feel free to ignore my crazy, my knowledge of European history is patchy at best.

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#25  Edited By JBird
@nintendoeats:  I'm not sure the British would have left it in the hands of the inhabitants. Having seen Germany match across Europe to get Poland, they would have taken complete control of the island as a Military outpost. As its control would have been key to Britain defence they wouldn't have let someone else try to defend it. Its also probably worth noting that the island would have been completely decimated. Google some pictures of London post blitz. Now imagine there was an island half as close with just as much importance to the overall war effort. It would be completely destroyed!
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Make it Danish, then make it leave its (fictional) union with Denmark at the same time Iceland does (after WW2).


EDIT: And yeah, listen to the post below me.
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#27  Edited By damswedon

An island that big there would mean a completely different history for Europe. Reduce the size to that of Jersey and you will avoid most of the problems.

Although then your problem is why isn't the island a crown dependency like Jersey and Guernsey or the Isle of Man.
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#28  Edited By beej
@nintendoeats: That works better but then you run into the issue with Britain's reaction to those sorts of threats before WW2. Given that the prime minister at the time was terrified about a potential german airbase that threat wouldn't go over very well with them.

That said I wouldn't worry too much about hitler being a threat to the island, on some level he would be, but he was focusing a massive amount of his resources to the east, a long term campaign for the invasion of britain wasn't ever really part of the larger goal.
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#29  Edited By Jeust

You have some important events you should think about:


- Vikings;
- WWI;
- WWII.
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#30  Edited By MattyFTM  Moderator
@nintendoeats: I think it's of too much strategic importance for Britain to leave on it's own during World War II. If Germany invaded it, they would have an easy way of entering eastern England & Scotland. I'm thinking that maybe they could have gained independence during the latter half of the 1920's. Having seen the Irish War of Independence the inhabitants decided to have a similar uprising and they become fully independent. There will still be a lot of bad blood between the Britain and this country, so during WWII Britain will be reluctant to defend it and they're likely to be largely unable to defend themselves. With the strategic importance of it, though, Britain would probably put the history aside and help defend the country. Maybe not straight away, Germany might start invading it, but sooner or later Britain will have to step in and push the Nazi forces back. 


That's how I see things playing out, anyway. They could have become independent after WWII if you're set on that idea, but Britain definitely wouldn't leave them largely undefended during the war.
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#31  Edited By nintendoeats
@zudthespud: That would be awesome, but this does need to be fairly serious. I'm pretty sure the capital city is going to be called Gerstmann though.

@damswedon:
I know that this would drastically change history, but the end result only needs to seem plausible.

@MattyFTM said:
" @nintendoeats: I think it's of too much strategic importance for Britain to leave on it's own during World War II. If Germany invaded it, they would have an easy way of entering eastern England & Scotland. I'm thinking that maybe they could have gained independence during the latter half of the 1920's. Having seen the Irish War of Independence the inhabitants decided to have a similar uprising and they become fully independent. There will still be a lot of bad blood between the Britain and this country, so during WWII Britain will be reluctant to defend it and they're likely to be largely unable to defend themselves. With the strategic importance of it, though, Britain would probably put the history aside and help defend the country. Maybe not straight away, Germany might start invading it, but sooner or later Britain will have to step in and push the Nazi forces back. That's how I see things playing out, anyway. They could have become independent after WWII if you're set on that idea, but Britain definitely wouldn't leave them largely undefended during the war. "

I like this. I believe that it is, as they say, "Our Hitler."
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#32  Edited By damswedon
@nintendoeats: The thing is land that big there would change the currents and weather of the Channel. William of Normandy had to postpone his invasion due to bad weather. Anyone with GCSE history should know that piece of chance secured him the throne because King Harold's army had to march north to fend off King Harald III of Norway's invasion to the north.
By putting that island there at that size you've changed 1000 years of European history.
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#33  Edited By Jimbo

Even if you assume history remains relatively unchanged until WW2 (which it wouldn't of course), an island there probably means:

  • Germany relatively easily invades it after the fall of France in 1940.
  • Uses air bases on Island X to more easily destroy Britain's northern industrial cities.
  • RAF is spread too thin defending the whole country, Germany gains air supremacy, swiftly invades and conquers Britain, then Ireland.  Germany helps itself to Africa.  Japan helps itself to Singapore, Hong Kong etc.
  • Germany only has to fight on one front against Russia, Germany defeats Russia.
  • Japan attacks Pearl Harbor, US declares war on Japan, Germany declares war on US.
  • Stalemate in Atlantic and Pacific.  Germany eventually has massive economic advantage over everybody else, probably also develops first nuke, kills everybody else.
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#34  Edited By AlexW00d

One tip, if you do go with the Island being Dutch; don't refer to the Netherlands as Holland. Only a part of the Netherlands is actually Holland. It would be like calling England Warwickshire, or calling the US Maine. :)

Unfortunately I don't have enough knowledge of European history. My area seems to be more in the Ancient times. But good luck. 

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#35  Edited By veektarius

The island is too big.  It's the size of all of England, for god's sake!.  Choose a landmass small enough that you could plausibly claim it couldn't have directly interfered in the many European continental wars.  All these arguments about who would take over the island are important, but I think the bigger question is what the island would have done on its own.

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#36  Edited By mrv321

Look at that map, what to you see in the flags? Bottom left=Stripes, Top Right=cross. Britain has been conquered by the two sides and such has both features. I think the easiest thing to do, is say it was a Germanic collony, used for testing during WW2 post WW2 it was held by the Russians and was further used for testing/millitary. In the events of a WW3 it would be a Nuclear launch centre for western Europe, when the wall fell it was handed back over to the Puppet government that had previously been put in place to comply to UN regulations, due to it's location and cold war fears the Nothern Oil fields where never discovered. The island voted for it's government in 1992, it went for the Nationalistic And Rand style goverment. It finally went for the name 'Ynysdyr' in 1995 it discovered the oil fields and had exclusives writes, it sits on a large cold war stockpile, larger than Britain, France and Germany combined.

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#37  Edited By Bismarck
@mrv321:    Germany never had colonies, they tried but never  succeded.

You could make the island to be split between a couple of countries.
Make it be inhabited by norse people from the begining and by continental europeans(dutch, german, french if you liek you can put english aswell).
Middle ages France and England duke it out for it.
Later on the Spanish and English fight for it in the 16th century.
Spanish are defeated,  the island falls under the rule of England, but now in the mix of people that live on it you can add spanish that were left after the fail of the spanish armada
Pre-World War I, Germany try to get their hands on it covertly but fail.
World War I starts Germany trys more openly but is pushed by the british. Germany looses WWI.
Between the 2 wars the island gets modernised, and  industrialised.
1939 Poland falls, the british set their defences in France and on the island. AA guns, coastal defence, mines.
WWII starts, France, Holland,Belgium and the other countries fall.
 Luftwaffe do bombing runs each day, but the briths use their radars to  intersept them and to hold the planes of.
You can make it more interesting and add a German D-Day where german forces land on the island and take a part of it.
Native resistance is formed which is aided by british commandos.
Germany invades USSR, on the island there are only left forces to defend it nothing special.
By the end of 1943 the island is retaken.
It is used as a base of operation by the allied forces, as a naval base and air force base.
Post war it is still british mid 60s and 70s the people inspired by the IRA start to revolt and push the british forces out of the island.
Atempts to retake it are made yet  they only are able to take  the part closest to the UK.


And thats all  i could think of.
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#38  Edited By veektarius
@Bismarck: Have you ever heard of the Chinese beer Tsingtao?  It's made in a Chinese place of the same name, which learned to make beer when the Germans colonized it.  They also had holdings in Africa and the Pacific.  What they failed to do was to make the sum of all these parts in any way competitive with the empires that had such a huge head start on them.
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#39  Edited By mrv321
@Bismarck

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_former_German_colonies#German_imperial_colonies

They had a couple.
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#40  Edited By Bismarck
@mrv321:@Veektarius:
My mistake, I  apologies.
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#41  Edited By management

First of, I would think that the fictional Island that you have created would have been British. Another thing, even further back in history is when the Vikings raided and plundered Scotland and England that fictional island is in the way. So either the Vikings stirred some shit up pretty bad for those people who lived there, or you can say that the Vikings colonized the island first and then the German came along afterwards and took over, this could work out seeing as Vikings where Germanic people, while the brits are Anglo-Saxon. 

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#42  Edited By Yanngc33
@nintendoeats: The dutch were dicks during the 50s when it came to decolonization. Make some kind of violent civil war history or something
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Example1013

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#43  Edited By Example1013
@nintendoeats said:
" @MattyFTM:@JBird: Awesome stuff guys, British does seem to make more sense when you put it that way.I have definitely been concerned about how WWII would have played out. It seems likely that the island would have been a majour battleground, which makes it seem implausible that it would be in a position to gain independence. I suppose that if the British had left the defenses primarily in the hands of the inhabitants of the island, they could well have turned on them after the war ended and demanded independence. It's not exactly a pretty start to the country, but I think I can write it in such a way that the revolutionaries remain sympathetic. "
Make it a Scandinavian country under control of the Soviet Socialist Republic that was occupied by Germany, and then reinforced by the United States at the end of WWII to maintain its independence (helped by its physical distance from Russia). There are parallels to be seen in Lithuania (although Lithuania was reoccupied after WWII, and remained a Soviet nation until 1990), so it's not that hard to imagine. Hell, if you're in America and you write up a decent Wikipedia article about it, you could probably have a decent portion of people believe the country is real.