Game Of Thrones Season 5 Discussion Thread

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#701 Posted by Spoonman671 (5874 posts) -

@zevvion said:

@jimbo: And I am saying that all the things you list off is the reason why Alliser is speaking up against Jon. None of them are reasons to kill him from Alliser's perspective the way he's built up. If they were, he would have done so before he let the wildlings through, not after.

He totally could have killed Jon earlier than he did. The very moment he should've killed him if he was going to, he decisively didn't, even though the other watchmen were looking at him to do it. It's just not a convincing character portrayal. The entire moment screamed: 'Ha! We shocked you didn't we?! You thought, if he was going to kill him, he would have done it here because that makes the most sense, so we made him not do it there and do it here instead because SHOCK!'.

It ends up just not making sense when the shock fades.

Was there really any shock though? I agree that I thought it was a weird direction for the Thorne character, but it was hardly surprising that he was a part of the mutiny, or that there was a mutiny to begin with.

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#702 Posted by gnomeonfire (1124 posts) -

This show has lost all subtlety and Alliser Thornes character flip-flopping would make a Magikarp blush.

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#703 Edited by Zevvion (5965 posts) -

@spoonman671: The show has become obsessed with killing likable characters for shock value. Here's how I see it: the quality of the show and interestingness (that's not a word?) there of has gone downhill ever since the first season. When I saw the first season, it was the best show I've ever seen and ever will see. Those were my thoughts at the time. Nothing can surpass this. Now, it has become just 'one of the better shows I've seen', and I barely watched any new ones in between.

The series had so much potential, that was just squandered by this obsession to shock viewers. Yes, killing off likable characters can be a good move for a show to instill emotion in the viewer, but nothing, literally nothing, has come up to replace those that were lost. It's just one story after another ending and the void being filled with politics and ladle slapping of characters I don't care about watching. The Arya storyline is something I'm kind off giving up on. It has been promised for 5 seasons now, and for 5 seasons she is still yet to start actual training to get there. There are only 2 seasons left, so it will wrap up her story one way or another, very abruptly to be sure. If the pay off is good, the lead up will be terrible at the very best. That only leaves Jon as a character worth watching. Ending the season on: 'Ha-haaaa! The last likable character is finally dead also!' is definitely a shock to me.

Not oblivious to the possibility of his resurrection, but boy is it a downer. Slowly watching the series become nothing but ladle slapping. It started so strong. Watching them take turns stabbing Jon was more like watching the show stab itself repeatedly for me. I honestly considered not watching season 6. Just because if Jon will be ressurected, he won't be back, really back, until season 7 if we apply GOT logistics.

Edit: Also, I just can't wrap my head around how terrible the Arya storyline has been. She still is a kid who has no skills. In season 1, we found out she had no discipline, no skills. She was taught by a dancer master in that season. She gained discipline, she gained very basic understanding of sword combat. In season 2 to 5, she learned literally nothing new, except where the heart of a person is. She still has absolutely no combat experience whatsoever. She's still a vengeful young girl without any skill. There are 2 seasons left and she is supposed to kill great warriors and leaders. How exactly? I tell you how, because they are going to pretend by time passing, they can pass it off as if she has become a great assassin, even though she has learned absolutely nothing since season 1 in terms of combat and assassination. In 4 seasons, they could have had her assassinate a small time guy as her first. They could've had the Hound properly train with her for a long period of time. They could have shown some training on the Bravos ship at the very least. She could have been thrown out in her first 2 on 1 fight at some point with not very skilled warriors. Ending with her fighting a skilled warrior one on one or something like that. Instead, they made her stab an unarmed, untrained fat kid and stab an unprepared, common foot soldier while not dealing with the consequences.

How am I ever going to believe she has grown up into this masterful warrior and skilled assassin? The only way they can attempt to make it seem as such is if they do a: 'Now your training begins' in season 6 and then not show her for the entire season and then assume she has learned everything she needed to when season 7 starts. Which, will be terrible, but at least slightly believable. I'm just so bummed by that story line being wasted like this. Jon really is the only one that I legitimately loved all the way through. I found it to always be interesting and always believable. He is the main character of the show for me.

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#704 Edited by Jimbo (10472 posts) -

@zevvion said:

@jimbo: And I am saying that all the things you list off is the reason why Alliser is speaking up against Jon. None of them are reasons to kill him from Alliser's perspective the way he's built up. If they were, he would have done so before he let the wildlings through, not after.

He totally could have killed Jon earlier than he did. The very moment he should've killed him if he was going to, he decisively didn't, even though the other watchmen were looking at him to do it. It's just not a convincing character portrayal. The entire moment screamed: 'Ha! We shocked you didn't we?! You thought, if he was going to kill him, he would have done it here because that makes the most sense, so we made him not do it there and do it here instead because SHOCK!'.

It ends up just not making sense when the shock fades.

Fair enough. Personally I wasn't shocked at all because they repeatedly hinted it could happen, and to me it didn't seem out of character for Thorne (he straight up tells Jon he wishes him dead at one point). I suppose we just interpret his character differently. You must have picked up on the foreshadowing re Olly at least?

If the moment you're refering to is when Alliser opens the gates for Jon, I disagree that it would have made sense for him to do it then (though that is likely the event which causes Jon to drop his guard for the actual attack). Alliser isn't portrayed as being stupid. An open mutiny at that point likely would have resulted in a scene similar to Craster's Keep (remaining Jon Loyalists vs Alliser supporters) and Alliser --if he even survived the ensuing battle-- with nothing left to become Lord Commander of. His intention is to 'save' the Watch, not decimate it. This is of course why he eventually acts in the dead of night with trickery, rather than with open rebellion in broad daylight.

You also have to consider how crucial Stannis' support of Jon is to Alliser's calculation. During 'The Gate Moment', Stannis is just down the road at the head of an army and possibly about to retake the North. It's important to note that Alliser only launches his coup d'etat after Stannis fails.

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#706 Posted by SnakeEater321 (124 posts) -

@stark2203: Uhhh...you know there's a recent Game of Thrones discussion thread already? You bloody necromancer