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#51 Edited by bceagles128 (788 posts) -

I don't consider this a spoiler because people are only going to understand what I'm saying if they've read the books:

There was a big uproar on twitter that they seemingly replaced the Kindly Man with Jaqen Ha'gar. My question is this: Did book readers just get spoiled by the show without realizing it? Do we have any evidence from the books that Ha'gar and the Kindly Man are actually different people? The people from the House of Black and White are faceshifters, so how do we know that the Kindly man isn't just Ha'gar and that GRRM simply hasn't revealed it yet in the books? Not only does it seem plausible to me. It actually makes a ton of sense. I know there is that one scene in the opening of FFC that people seem to think is Ha'gar, but I see no reason that it has to be, or that even if it is, that Ha'gar couldn't get back to the House of B&W in time for Arya anyway.

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#52 Posted by Aegon (7301 posts) -

@bceagles128: Dude, where Jaqen is in the books, he's staying for a while, in case you didn't notice what he did. He can't teleport to Braavos every day and mentor Arya. There is no more of the book Jaqen in the show. He's replacing the kindly man instead.

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#53 Posted by AndyLonn (116 posts) -

A thought also struck me, Spoiler time: Kevan Lannister will have a bigger role than ever in this season due to Lancels status as a sparrow and Cerseis upcoming mistakes. In DotD he gets offed by Varys in the very end of the book, so that the kingdom ill remain in chaos before the Targaryan return. So unless they make someone else fill Vary's spot, or decide to go anoter route entirely, Varys needs to get back to the 7 kingdoms, and as someone has already stated, D&D can't help themselves when it comes to having characters explaining their motives. Might we get the (f)Aegon story introduced at that point maybe?


I just can't seem to let that storyline go.

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#54 Edited by Ravelle (3278 posts) -

@bceagles128 said:

I don't consider this a spoiler because people are only going to understand what I'm saying if they've read the books:

There was a big uproar on twitter that they seemingly replaced the Kindly Man with Jaqen Ha'gar. My question is this: Did book readers just get spoiled by the show without realizing it? Do we have any evidence from the books that Ha'gar and the Kindly Man are actually different people? The people from the House of Black and White are faceshifters, so how do we know that the Kindly man isn't just Ha'gar and that GRRM simply hasn't revealed it yet in the books? Not only does it seem plausible to me. It actually makes a ton of sense. I know there is that one scene in the opening of FFC that people seem to think is Ha'gar, but I see no reason that it has to be, or that even if it is, that Ha'gar couldn't get back to the House of B&W in time for Arya anyway.

I don't think so, they're faceless men. I believe the old man he appeared as at first is the real kindly man and is just using the Jaqen face, he himself said he wasn't Jaqen. Names mean nothing when a man changes face.

Besides, Jaqen being the Kindly Man would be really lame.

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#55 Posted by armaan8014 (6306 posts) -

I'm happy about the series diverging from the books. Found the last two books to be less interesting than usual.

I wonder if they take an interesting direction with Sansa, and make her "dark". Or a female little finger

Also thank god no Bran!

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#56 Posted by LiquidPrince (17073 posts) -

I don't really understand the hate that Dany gets... This is the same character that started off the show being so meek that she was essentially getting raped every night. She's slowly gained some semblance of power in her life, but she's young and inexperienced. She isn't just going to be this amazing queen right off the bat. She's growing and learning, and in the process shes going to make mistakes, and her ego is going to get in the way. But she'll learn.

Assuming she isn't murdered soon.

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#57 Posted by AndyLonn (116 posts) -

@bceagles128: I don't think the book readers got spoiled about the Kindly Man as I am pretty certain Jaqan is in Oldtown at the time of Arya's initiation at the House of Black and White

Jaqen H'ghar changes his face and name after he leaves Arya. [1] The description of his new face matches that of the Alchemist that meets withPate in Oldtown. Pate later meets Samwell Tarly, but at the end of his Prologue chapter he appeared to have been murdered by the Alchemist. It's possible the Alchemist stole his identity.

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#58 Posted by Ares42 (4239 posts) -

@liquidprince: If you're wondering why people dislike that story-line it's most likely because it's completely inconsequential to the rest of the show/book. It's basically just a side-story, nothing that's ever happened there has ever had any real sort of influence on anything else. Sure, more and more of the different lines have developed into that as well, but it was like that from the start, back when everything was intertwined.

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#59 Posted by stryker1121 (2167 posts) -

@andylonn said:

@bceagles128: I don't think the book readers got spoiled about the Kindly Man as I am pretty certain Jaqan is in Oldtown at the time of Arya's initiation at the House of Black and White

Jaqen H'ghar changes his face and name after he leaves Arya. [1] The description of his new face matches that of the Alchemist that meets withPate in Oldtown. Pate later meets Samwell Tarly, but at the end of his Prologue chapter he appeared to have been murdered by the Alchemist. It's possible the Alchemist stole his identity.

That's the impression I had, though I have no idea where GRRM is going with that Alchemist storyline, and of course no mention was made of it during DWD.

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#60 Posted by bceagles128 (788 posts) -

@aegon: if you read post, you would see that I acknowledged the theory that Hagar is in old town. I call it a theory however because that's all it is at this point. And the only real support I've seen for it are the facts that (1) both men are face shifters and (2) the description of hagars new face seems to resemble the description of the assassins's facer. That is absolutely not definitive proof that they are the same person. There could be many faceshifters in this world and if that's the case, the kindly man could absolutely be Hagar, and we all could have just been spoiled.

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#61 Edited by Ravelle (3278 posts) -

I just don't see the reason for them use that actor for that role so early on if that would be the case, why cut the old kindly man at all? You take away a twist and a great moment and devalue the whole House of B&W.

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#62 Posted by mezmero (3708 posts) -

My feelings about Game of Thrones haven't changed since this new season. It's one of my favorite ongoing TV shows. I think the story is a crappy string of random events that are just designed to make things more bleak in the world but not to advance it towards any sort of satisfying end. There's intrigue sure but I don't know it's missing some substance. The draw for me has always been the characters, the dialogue, the acting, and the lovely set designs. The action is good sometimes and other times it's just okay. That's why I have zero interest in the books because it's the production values that hook me, not so much the story.

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#63 Edited by Aegon (7301 posts) -

@bceagles128: All you talked about was the "opening scene" so I assumed you didn't know that it went far beyond there. Honestly, you're the only person I've ever seen doubt that theory. I'm sure there are more, but by and large it's considered fact. There's no reason not to believe it other than, "Well I guess this assassin in Westeros could have a similar face description as that other assassin we saw (who was in Westeros)".

Really, it seems ridiculous to me that this wandering assassin would also be the mentor at their "school", so to speak. That would just be fan service (and it is in the show). It's unlikely to happen in the books where there's room for myriads of characters.

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#64 Posted by LiquidPrince (17073 posts) -

@ares42 said:

@liquidprince: If you're wondering why people dislike that story-line it's most likely because it's completely inconsequential to the rest of the show/book. It's basically just a side-story, nothing that's ever happened there has ever had any real sort of influence on anything else. Sure, more and more of the different lines have developed into that as well, but it was like that from the start, back when everything was intertwined.

Except that she is building a larger and larger army, consisting now of thousands of Unsullied and three ever growing dragons, all in the hope eventually taking back the Iron Throne. She is one of the biggest contenders to be standing as the ruler of the Seven Kingdoms when all the dust has settled. So I don't really understand your viewpoint.

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#65 Posted by Ares42 (4239 posts) -

all in the hope eventually taking back the Iron Throne.

If that ever happens. It's all implied that one day she will matter, but so far, 4+ seasons in, she has had no significant impact on any other storyline in any way. I talked about this in the thread for last season as well, but basically at this point the build-up is just not gonna be worth it, and people are just losing patience. They could've easily just cut out all the Daenerys scenes from the first four seasons and left the rest of the show as is without any complications.

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#66 Edited by Bollard (8132 posts) -

@liquidprince said:

@ares42 said:

@liquidprince: If you're wondering why people dislike that story-line it's most likely because it's completely inconsequential to the rest of the show/book. It's basically just a side-story, nothing that's ever happened there has ever had any real sort of influence on anything else. Sure, more and more of the different lines have developed into that as well, but it was like that from the start, back when everything was intertwined.

Except that she is building a larger and larger army, consisting now of thousands of Unsullied and three ever growing dragons, all in the hope eventually taking back the Iron Throne. She is one of the biggest contenders to be standing as the ruler of the Seven Kingdoms when all the dust has settled. So I don't really understand your viewpoint.

The main problem is she never achieves anything, and ruins everything she does have. Just as she's poised with an army of Unsullied and three dragons to invade the seven kingdoms, instead she goes off on a fanciful hunt to end slavery (which she fails at). Then when she achieves that (sort of) she decides that again, instead of invading, she will rule Mereen for a while (which she fails at). In the mean time she alienates the two dragons she actually still controls by locking them underground, while letting her army of Unsullied get whittled away by Sons of the Harpy. I won't stray into what happens in the rest of the series, as I'm not sure if you're a book reader, but let's just say she continues to screw everything up.

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#67 Posted by LackingSaint (2185 posts) -

I don't really understand the hate that Dany gets... This is the same character that started off the show being so meek that she was essentially getting raped every night. She's slowly gained some semblance of power in her life, but she's young and inexperienced. She isn't just going to be this amazing queen right off the bat. She's growing and learning, and in the process shes going to make mistakes, and her ego is going to get in the way. But she'll learn.

Assuming she isn't murdered soon.

I think the fact that she isn't actually learning anything is exactly why people dislike her. Dany was extremely popular in the first couple of seasons, because all of her mistakes were understandable naievities and you could see the journey she was going on. Now? She hasn't actually done anything smart as a leader in well over a season, instead just throwing her massive army at any major problem and speaking like she has authority or a grand plan when she clearly doesn't. And that's exactly the issue; she doesn't seem like somebody who's "growing and learning", somebody who's conflicted and unsure about her actions and who she really is. Dany knows exactly what she wants to do, and she absolutely believes that everything she does is "the right thing", and it very obviously isn't.

Dany moved past "a child who doesn't have a clue what she's doing" in Season 3. Season 4 has systemically reverted Dany back to a S2 level of stupidity, and that's kind of frustrating.

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#68 Posted by Fredchuckdave (10824 posts) -

Daenerys has been a terrible character for a while now, has a lot to do with her being a Mary Sue though.

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#69 Posted by Funkydupe (3614 posts) -

Daenerys' story has been stale for a long time. So far definitely more interesting back when the developments of her character as well as progress of her story was delievered at a faster pace in the show.

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#70 Edited by ShadyPingu (1797 posts) -

Makes perfect sense to me why they brought Jaquen back. There's a limit to how many new characters the audience will accept in a certain period, even on this show. The showrunners probably just asked themselves "Does it even fucking matter who the old man is?" And they answered themselves "NO," and made him a familiar face to streamline things.

Also, add my voice to the chorus against Daenerys. I can only be told so many times that someone is of great importance before I start to resent them. Tyrion needs to get her ass to Westeros, soon.

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#71 Edited by ripelivejam (13074 posts) -

@lackingsaint: i think a lot of it had to do with her more listening to her heart when going on her path of conquest and slave liberation, but unable to think as well practically and as a ruler. The decision to free slaves was a straightforward one at least on paper, but it's something completely different to govern them and provide order/protection/sustenance. It's a completely different beast.

But yeah, i wouldn't mind it if things started moving (finish the book, george).

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#72 Posted by sarahsdad (1338 posts) -

@brackstone said:
@artisanbreads said:

It's almost like you dropped a Star Wars prequel character into the show when she's around.

This is just such a perfect way of describing the problem. Daenerys has that strange mix of being bland, incompetent and inconsistent that you really only see elsewhere in the Star Wars prequels. As far as rulers go, Joffrey was about as incompetent, but at least he wasn't bland and inconsistent.

haha it came to me thinking it over. She is reminding me of the way Anakin and Amidala were on screen a lot of times in those movies.

Dang it. I watched the second episode after reading this, and now I can't see her as anything but a displaced Star Wars prequel character.

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#73 Posted by GStats (197 posts) -

I love the whole attitude to Martin. Something along the lines of "hurry up before you die!!"

That's gotta be something he has mixed feelings about.

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#74 Edited by Fredchuckdave (10824 posts) -

@gstats: Plot twist: He's the only character in/related to the book that doesn't die.

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#75 Posted by FinalDasa (3163 posts) -

It's interesting how they're changing the books in small ways. Some characters are doubling up their tasks and others are just sentenced to the background.

Daenerys has never been an interesting character to me in the show, only the acting. Emilia Clarke gives life to a strange character and makes her into something watchable. In the books I feel like her story is boring.

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#76 Posted by Ravelle (3278 posts) -

@artisanbreads said:
@brackstone said:
@artisanbreads said:

It's almost like you dropped a Star Wars prequel character into the show when she's around.

This is just such a perfect way of describing the problem. Daenerys has that strange mix of being bland, incompetent and inconsistent that you really only see elsewhere in the Star Wars prequels. As far as rulers go, Joffrey was about as incompetent, but at least he wasn't bland and inconsistent.

haha it came to me thinking it over. She is reminding me of the way Anakin and Amidala were on screen a lot of times in those movies.

Dang it. I watched the second episode after reading this, and now I can't see her as anything but a displaced Star Wars prequel character.

Nobody is really "ruling" that well.

Except Stannis of course. Stannis is life.

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#77 Posted by Marcsman (3823 posts) -

Major issues I have are

1. Jamie going to Dorne? Really?

2. Ellaria Sand talking to and even threatening the Prince of Dorne. What's the point of being a Prince when some baseborn scum can threaten you?

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#78 Posted by notnert427 (2157 posts) -

@marcsman said:

Major issues I have are

1. Jamie going to Dorne? Really?

I disagree. This buddy cop thing with Jamie and Bronn has the potential to be the best part of this season. That is, unless Arya starts needling fools or Tyrian catches up with Daenerys and endlessly mocks her ineptitude as a ruler to her face.

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#79 Posted by GStats (197 posts) -

@gstats: Plot twist: He's the only character in/related to the book that doesn't die.

Haha George R.R.Martin is immortal? Cool, so the TV show should continue for quite a while then.

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#80 Posted by GStats (197 posts) -

@marcsman said:

some baseborn scum can threaten you?

How did you know my pet name for my gf?

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#81 Posted by takayamasama (1535 posts) -

@marcsman: In regards to your second point, as he states since she was his brother's mate he will always have a place for her, so he tolerates the words. All Dorneish woman are known for being very, very feisty. More on that will come soon

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#82 Posted by bceagles128 (788 posts) -

Dude. I have enjoyed many of the liberties that Benioff and Weiss taken with the source material.... but Sansa and Ramsey? What the fuck? That makes absolutely no sense at all within the context of this world. Littlefinger is in love with Sansa as a surrogate for Caitlyn and he knows that Ramsay is a monster. He also hates the Boltons with a fiery passion after what they did to Caitlyn. He would NEVER in a million years have her marry Ramsay, even as a move in a plan to eventually get back at the Boltons. No way, no how.

I am assuming that they are going to have Brienne play the role of Mance in the books (i.e., helping her to escape), but even so, I don't see how Littlefinger could be behind that, so it sure seems like he's actually trying to marry Sansa off, at least temporarily.. And that makes no sense.

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#83 Edited by j_unit2008 (307 posts) -

@bceagles128: I'm pretty much in agreement with you. I'm not sure if the show runners were concerned about confusing audiences with the whole Arya doppleganger thing from the books or if they just needed to find something for Sansa to do since book readers don't know exactly where she's going. Also, I'm pretty sure Sansa was still under suspicion for Joffrey's death.. You'd think revealing herself through marriage would bring the Lannisters down on her and the Boltons. Either way I'm slightly bothered by it, but hopefully they can do something neat with this plot line.

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#84 Posted by TheHT (15785 posts) -

I really like the differences between the three "Stark" executions. I mean the ones carried out by Theon, Robb, and now Jon. Technically two of em aren't Starks, but you know. They all grew up in Winterfell and are around the same age, then found themselves in a leadership position where they'd lob someone's head off.

Anyways, so you've got Theon killing the old Stark Master-at-Arms in a brutally drawn-out execution. "Gods help you Theon Greyjoy, now you are truly lost". It's a terribly chaotic scene with Bran and Rickon crying nearby as Rodrik gets his head kicked off by a frantic Theon.

Then you've got Robb who was between a rock and a hard place and opted for the rock, killing his distant kin Lord Karstark. "Kill me and be cursed, you are no king of mine". Yikes. Robb seems pretty damn pissed immediately after, tossing is sword and grimacing with fists clenched. It's probably because he knows that in doing what he felt was right he'll have lost a large part of his army. Just so, the Karstark army withdraws, and Robb finds himself back at the door of one Walder Frey.

Finally there's Jon Snow executing baby murderer and sniveling asshole extraordinaire, Lord Janos Slynt. It's perhaps his first serious test of leadership, even after deciding to forego becoming a Stark to remain Lord Commander and after naming Ser Alliser First Ranger. Slynt is given multiple chances to obey Jon's order until he becomes openly insulting and insubordinate to the new Lord Commander.

And so it's outside with Janos Slynt, rambling threats after being abandoned by Ser Alliser, that same intense music from Theon and Robb's scenes picking up loudly. When the sword comes out, the consequences of Slynt's actions becomes clear to him. Broken down and begging for mercy, Jon's hand his stayed for a moment. Does he offer mercy? Should he follow through? Everyone is looking to Jon to see what he'll do, to see if he's at all capable of doing the difficult things a leader must sometimes do. A single strike and the man who once betrayed Ned Stark is no more. Jon hands Longclaw to a nearby brother. Stannis Baratheon nods in approval.

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#85 Posted by jay_ray (1569 posts) -

Dude. I have enjoyed many of the liberties that Benioff and Weiss taken with the source material.... but Sansa and Ramsey? What the fuck? That makes absolutely no sense at all within the context of this world. Littlefinger is in love with Sansa as a surrogate for Caitlyn and he knows that Ramsay is a monster. He also hates the Boltons with a fiery passion after what they did to Caitlyn. He would NEVER in a million years have her marry Ramsay, even as a move in a plan to eventually get back at the Boltons. No way, no how.

I am assuming that they are going to have Brienne play the role of Mance in the books (i.e., helping her to escape), but even so, I don't see how Littlefinger could be behind that, so it sure seems like he's actually trying to marry Sansa off, at least temporarily.. And that makes no sense.

I disagree with your assumption of Littlefinger, his only love now is the pursuit for the Iron Throne and he is willing to do anything to get it. He loves no human anymore.

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#86 Posted by Brackstone (840 posts) -

If anything, I think this episode gave strong indications of how the rest of the season will go for several characters. There are so many different characters and storylines, I think this episode basically outlined how several of them will be drawn together this season. Remember, there's only supposed to be two more seasons after this, so now is the time to start focusing things down, drawing loose ends together.

I predict (with zero knowledge from the books or the fourth episode) that Sansa and Ramsay end up in Winterfell, Stannis will show up and besiege the Boltons at Winterfell, Ramsay or Ramsay's old girlfriend will mistreat Sansa, Theon will in some way assist Sansa (maybe kill Ramsay/his girlfriend?), and Brienne will have to make the choice between protecting/saving Sansa as she promised, or taking revenge on Stannis, and will probably end up protecting Sansa. This also matches with Stannis' big motivation this season being finding someone to unite the North, and if he ends up at Winterfell, he'll have Sansa to do just that. Basically, the big climax of the season is going to be the huge convergence of characters at Winterfell. This matches with Tyrion meeting up with Daenerys, two separate plots converging into one. I suspect from here on out that will be the trend, drawing difference stories together at a steady pace.

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#87 Edited by Hunter5024 (6706 posts) -

I've seen four episodes. I have really mixed feelings about this season so far. It's still incredibly watchable but I think the show's really suffering for having basically none of its major characters together right now, and they seem to be moving through the content at a weirdly slow pace for this first half of the season. I think I enjoy some of the liberties they've taken with the story, like Dorne, and maybe Brienne, but I'm really not sure how I feel about what's going on with Sansa, and I wish they'd taken more liberties with Dany's chapters. They still haven't done anything with Sam or the Ironborn. I'm worried they won't do Sam considering where Jaqen is, but I guess we don't really know where that particular story is going anyways.

I was kind of hoping they'd fix the problems I had with Feast and Dance, but so far I feel like they're fumbling as much as they fix. Hopefully the rest of the season picks up the pace and some of the changes start to make a little more sense. Unless Winds of Winter comes out this year, I probably won't be watching next season.

@marcsman said:

Major issues I have are

1. Jamie going to Dorne? Really?

I'm into it. Jaime and Bronn do barely anything in the fourth and fifth book, and some cool shit goes down in Dorne so it makes sense to have a couple familiar characters down there. This has been my favorite part of the season so far.

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#88 Edited by ArtisanBreads (9107 posts) -

@liquidprince said:

@ares42 said:

@liquidprince: If you're wondering why people dislike that story-line it's most likely because it's completely inconsequential to the rest of the show/book. It's basically just a side-story, nothing that's ever happened there has ever had any real sort of influence on anything else. Sure, more and more of the different lines have developed into that as well, but it was like that from the start, back when everything was intertwined.

Except that she is building a larger and larger army, consisting now of thousands of Unsullied and three ever growing dragons, all in the hope eventually taking back the Iron Throne. She is one of the biggest contenders to be standing as the ruler of the Seven Kingdoms when all the dust has settled. So I don't really understand your viewpoint.

This isn't a sporting event. I don't care who wins, I'm here for a good story. Her parts of the show are just not as interesting. Her character is pretty flat and flatly acted as well. As a leader she isn't as good as others on the show.

There are a few weak link characters on the show and it's unfortunate to me when they get screen time and others characters might not show up at all as a consequence. Ramsay and Theon are the other storyline that when it comes up I'm just kind of bummed.

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#89 Posted by mezmero (3708 posts) -

This season is terrific but also totally uninteresting. How is such a thing possible? The production is THAT damn good. Honestly the only interesting character arcs to me are revolving around the remaining Stark children (Jon included). Everyone else just seems like they're on the road to some randomly tragic end.

The execution scene with Jon was done unbelievably well. I'm hoping that Stannis will be pivotal in a defense against the White Walkers seeing as the Lord of Light is their natural enemy. Also want to see if Sansa is capable of destroying the Bolton's politically if possible. She's exhibited some of the greatest willpower among the Starks to survive for so long so I'd be curious if she's ever going to snap and start handing out some comeuppance. I was getting choked up when Arya was about to toss Needle so thank the light they didn't go that far. I wonder how A Man even ended up as a prisoner in King's Landing if he's got all these crazy 2nd level spells.

Favorite characters so far are probably Tyrion and Sir Davos as always. I'm sort of digging this chainless maester who's working for Cersei. He's super creepy and dark and up to no good.

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#90 Posted by Brackstone (840 posts) -
@mezmero said:

I'm sort of digging this chainless maester who's working for Cersei. He's super creepy and dark and up to no good.

I`ve been digging that guy too. Every scene he`s been in he's had this creepy but very kindly disposition that makes him stand out from other characters. He's one of those characters that really doesn't say or do a whole lot, but clearly communicates so much about their character with what little they do say or do. His reply to the High Septon not knowing who he is was a great example of that.

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#91 Posted by LawGamer (1481 posts) -

@bceagles128 said:

Dude. I have enjoyed many of the liberties that Benioff and Weiss taken with the source material.... but Sansa and Ramsey? What the fuck? That makes absolutely no sense at all within the context of this world. Littlefinger is in love with Sansa as a surrogate for Caitlyn and he knows that Ramsay is a monster. He also hates the Boltons with a fiery passion after what they did to Caitlyn. He would NEVER in a million years have her marry Ramsay, even as a move in a plan to eventually get back at the Boltons. No way, no how.

I am assuming that they are going to have Brienne play the role of Mance in the books (i.e., helping her to escape), but even so, I don't see how Littlefinger could be behind that, so it sure seems like he's actually trying to marry Sansa off, at least temporarily.. And that makes no sense.

I dunno if it makes no sense. I mean, we can say that Littlefinger has got three goals at this point; (a) power/the Iron Throne, (b) bedding Sansa, and (c) revenge on the Boltons. If you think about it, marrying off Sansa to Ramsay, at least temporarily, sets him up to accomplish all three, given what he knows:

  • Littlefinger wants to get rid of the Boltons, but he needs to get close to them first, so he proposes the Sansa-Ramsay marriage.
  • Littlefinger knows the Boltons will accept the proposal because with Tywin's death, the Lannister-Bolton alliance dies with it, and the Boltons need support from somewhere else. Marrying a Stark helps legitimize their claim on Winterfell and might swing a few northern lords to their side.
  • Littlefinger knows that Roose will be suspicious of his motives, so he spins the yarn about being a gambler and how the Lannisters currently seem like a bad bet. He doesn't need Roose's complete trust, he just needs to keep him occupied long enough for the rest of his plan to work.
  • Littlefinger also knows that the northern lords the Starks and hate the Boltons with a passion. The only reason no one's done something about it is that they are too weak after the war and no house can take on the Bolton's by themselves. Therefore, he needs to give them a reason to unite.
  • Despite his claim of ignorance about Ramsay, I'm pretty sure Littlefinger knows all about him, or has at least heard enough to make a guess about his nature.
  • Littlefinger knows he can manipulate Sansa.

Given all those things, I see Littlefinger's plan going down something like this:

1. Marry off Sansa to Ramsay. This gets Sansa back in Winterfell and announces her presence to the rest of the north.

2. Littlefinger is counting on Ramsay to abuse Sansa, at least emotionally if not physically. This works in his favor. In terms of Littlefinger being unwilling to put Sansa in danger, I guess I don't agree. As Varys said in a past season, Littlefinger cares about Littlefinger. I think he's perfectly willing to let Sansa be in harms way so as long as it get him what he wants eventually.

3. Littlefinger finds some excuse to leave Winterfell, maybe by telling Roose he can use his persuasive ability to convince other northern lords to come over to his side. Once he's in the northern lords' castles however, Littlefinger points out what's happening to Sansa and encourages rebellion. Ramsay abusing Sansa is the ideal lever for Littlefinger the pull all the northern lords to his side, since it's pretty much guaranteed to push all their buttons - a damsel in distress who happens to be a Stark and is being harmed by the hated Boltons.

4. Northern lords rally to massacre the Boltons and rescue Sansa. This allows Littlefinger to exact revenge on the Boltons and also to be at the head of the force that "rescues" Sansa, which makes him look good in her eyes and appeals to whatever vestigial romanticism she still has left. He can spin her any tale he wants at this point, whether that this was all part of a plan or that he simply didn't know just how awful the Boltons were. Despite Sansa showing a little growth the last couple of seasons, we know that Littlefinger is still capable of manipulating her easily, and he's probably counting on that to continue.

5. Now Sansa is in control of Winterfell and a ton of northern lords with their attendant armies. And since Littlefinger can control Sansa, that means he controls Winterfell and the northern armies, which puts him in a pretty good position vis-à-vis the other contenders for the Iron Throne.

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#92 Posted by Jimbo (10472 posts) -

The books start to bloat and unravel pretty rapidly after Storm of Swords, so it's not too surprising that the show is increasingly going its own way. I wouldn't say they've necessarily changed anything for the better so far, but trying to was probably the right choice.

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#93 Posted by TheHT (15785 posts) -

Barristan Selmy is a goddamn boss.

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#94 Edited by SSully (5622 posts) -

@theht said:

Barristan Selmy is a goddamn boss.

Don't forget Greyworm.

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#95 Edited by TheHT (15785 posts) -

@ssully said:
@theht said:

Barristan Selmy is a goddamn boss.

Don't forget Greyworm.

Oh definitely. I hope they both pull through somehow, but I won't hold my breath. Greyworm looked a bit better off than Selmy. :(

Besides that, I really enjoyed Jon shutting down Melisandre, and Stannis having a very sweet moment with Shireen. Things in King's Landing look to be getting very... unruly. I get the sense that Cersei's let loose a beast that'll end up hurting her as well as the Tyrells.

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#96 Edited by ZolRoyce (1589 posts) -

Well that was a lot of stabbing in this one.


@ssully said:
@theht said:

Barristan Selmy is a goddamn boss.

Don't forget Greyworm.

All of that last scene was great, I loved seeing those two fight and possibly die? together. Such a great feeling of comradery during all of that.
Jaimes metal hand sword block was pretty great too, it will interesting to see if his fighting style adapts to use that more or not.

I also love how this show can make you hate a character one season or cheer for them the next, or at the very least be enthralled by what they are doing.
I'm loving seeing Cersei's power play against her own son right now.

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#97 Posted by TheHT (15785 posts) -

@zolroyce: He needs to mount a crossbow or something there stat. Chainsaw is probably out of the question.

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#98 Posted by AlKusanagi (1647 posts) -

@ssully said:
@theht said:

Barristan Selmy is a goddamn boss.

Don't forget Greyworm.

Bronn says "Hi," too.

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#99 Posted by Socuteboss (250 posts) -

The thing I dislike most about Daenerys is how she's basically Ned Stark, but instead of getting herself killed, her stupidity just ends up screwing over those around her.

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#100 Edited by gnomeonfire (1124 posts) -

My impression from the next episode preview is that Barristan is dead on the table.