Game Of Thrones Season 7 Discussion Thread (Spoilers up to and including the latest episode!)

@cageysquid: That would be hilarious if so. I mean, Dany spends 6 seasons gathering up forces and power, finally sails to Westeros, and then immediately starts having it all taken away from her in a manner of a few episodes when she gets there. Talk about making her look incompetent.

@gnomeonfire: When you put it like that, it kinda makes me wanna cry.

Jesus, Cersei is steamrolling allover Dany. She really needs some experienced generals on her side. Also Euron's fleet sneaking up on other fleets is starting to reach absurd levels of trolling.
I was happy to see Davos save the Jon v Dany scene and Olenna staying a boss till the end. Definitely the two highlights of this episode for me.

@gnomeonfire: Yeah, it feels kind of uncharacteristic for both Tyrion and Varys to not have back up plans and get caught so flat-footed.

Yeah, it seems a little forced that they'd get outsmarted like that, feels like the creatives are trying to make Dany the underdog ASAP, since it's usually the good guy as the underdog and bad one as the favorite. Maybe she actually does need Jorah, since he does have more fighting and battle experience than Tyrion and Varys.

My only problem with the trend these past few episodes is that now I can only expect a hard swing the other way in the favor of Jon/Dany at some point. There's been zero back and forth. Cersei has been taking everything by a landslide which, in hindsight, really shits all over last season's epic finale, but I digress. My point is when there's wins and losses on both sides, it keeps the audience guessing. When one side keeps trouncing the other, the only way to make it interesting is for the other side to comeback in some grand fashion. We're still waiting for the latter. Anyone wanna sit here and honestly tell me they expect Cersei to be the last one standing after all this?

The writers are obviously going to find some way to turn the tide. They've built up our emotions enough. Soon, it will be time for the sweet release. I only pray it's not a bunch of contrived bullshit.

And again, it may sound like I hated it, but I didn't. I'm loving this season, but it's not perfect, and I'm hard on the things I love because I care.

@babychoochoo: Rising and Falling Action, though more Hamfisted of course. They don't call it Pathos for nothin'

Yeah, I think that's the case. Neither of them is a military tactician. The one battle that Tyrion led was going pretty badly until his father came to the rescue. Meanwhile Cersei has two of the most experienced military men in Westeros in Jamie and Lord Tarly, and one of the most experienced sailors in the world in Oberyn.

Unlike Littlefinger, Varys's strength isn't necessarily in seeing all the angles and predicting how the other party will behave, his strength is simply having more information than anyone else in the room. And unless he literally has a spy in Cersei's bedroom, that's not going to give him any insight into the Lannisters' military plans

Honestly though, I wouldn't put the blame on anyone but Daenerys. I have to think she could've easily taken the Stormlands, the Riverlands, and most of the Reach, shored up Dorne and Highgarden's defenses, and then lay siege Kings Landing for the entire winter. She spent years chilling out in Essos, what's the damn rush now?

Who else thought that some of the writing and acting was shockingly bad this episode? Littlefinger and Bran were terrible. Littlefinger feels like either a parody of himself or a slightly more reserved portrayal of Grima Wormtongue. The first time he appears in every scene, he's literally skulking in the shadows.

Sansa going into boss-mode is nice, but she still feels really messy. I'm happy she's finally in a position to use her experience and have some agency, but it would be better if she was good at the things we've seen her learn. Her skill should lie in navigating politics and courtly affairs, organizing and communicating with the other lords, something Jon Snow should probably be less skilled at. The stuff she actually delt with. Instead, previous episodes where she shouts over Jon Snow show she's bad at that, but somehow knows more about armour than, you know, the armourers?

The Unsullied continuing to use spears in close quarters without formations still makes them look like a bunch of goofuses. I'm also wondering how many more times this show is going to use the plot device of "suddenly, Greyjoys!" to cause tension.

Everything to do with Daenerys' war feels so contrived and rushed, especially with how both her major allies are just gone like that in a few episodes. Everything good Daenerys gets feels contrived, everything bad that happens to her feels contrived. These sequences of events just don't make sense.

Similarly, I feel like Jon should have maybe had a better plan than "I hope they believe me" when he went to go ask people to abandon their war to come help him fight zombies and evil ice wizards. At least getting dragon glass could have been his main request, rather than some thing Tyrion had to pry out of him. Of course, Daenerys still acting like a petulant child didn't help. Davos responding to Daenerys bragging with "at least you had a name, Jon Snow had absolutely nothing" is probably as close as we are going to get to Daenerys having a reality check and showing some humility for once.

Olenna's last scene was great, a real highlight and devoid of poor writing like "you are a dragon, be a dragon". Jaime still feels like he seriously regressed as a character since season 3/4, but this scene with Olenna seems to be getting things back on track.

I will say, it feels like Euron's ships have magical invisibility and "I shot first your not allowed to shoot back!" powers. Which really starts to sting a bit after reading an article, which I wish I could remember the link too, which essentially said "Without the books as a guide-post anymore, character's actions and events no longer happen because of meaningful choices they made, but purely for narrative convenience/plot contrivance. The utterly one-sided boat-battles being a prime example of it. Like yah, seeing Euron make that entrance was a cool moment! But how did he find that entire navy in the dead of night and have absolutely no one notice him or take significant loses himself? Just, questions like that arise to which the only answer is "Because the tv show needed to drop dead weight characters, because it looked cool, etc".

As far as Dany looking incompetent this season and Cersei suddenly looking like a military genius..again, tv show stuff. There is at least some character motivation and choices being made to lead too it, but they do kinda end up making 'should be smart' characters seem dumb. And, again. How did that fleet know -exactly- when the unsullied were gonna land, how did no one notice the ships moving in to burn the good-guy fleet in broad day-light, yada yada. All answered by "Because Dany needs to be seperated from her army or else her massive overwhelming advantage is not narratively interesting to see go up against Cersei's "she can't possibly win" odds.

That said, this episode was a whole lot better then the last two, due in no un-small part because the best characters on the show got a lot of screen time finally, and stuff began to actually happen in a way that seems to be pushing the story forward. The show does have a real problem with time disconnect, but yah, just the way things are.

That said, we got some interesting fluff and flavor out of this. Predictions wise. It was interesting to hear that Bran is apparently immortal now, or at least expects to live to be the three eyed raven for 'the next long night" which I think implies the one following the current one? And yah, all those papers the ArchMaester has Samwell copy are likely all the documents and etc Sam was trying to get access too in the first episode, no big spoiler there (I'm honestly surprised they didn't reveal that in this episode and if its not the case man that's a weirdly obvious and perfectly fine plot point not to use.

The ending though, was pretty great. I was a fan of Olena's character (spelling on that name?) And while it was clear she was gonna get written off to up the stakes, she sure went out in a very in-character way.

All in all a very good up-tick in quality over the first episode and the kinda rough ending of the 2nd (if only for the 'Euron's fleet is invisible whenever it wants to be apparently!)

And yah, Littlefinger being littlefinger had the best dialog in the show. Completely superfluous at this point, just there to get dropped off a high-tower by Sansa in Episode 7 this season or something, but ultimately his character is good at being a crafty creepy never trust him bastard, and he is fun to see get to act the part.

More and more it becomes clear that the best parts of the show are behind them though, that its all in service of wrapping up the plot-threads that left dangled..and lots and lots of battles. Characters like Varys, littlefinger and even Tyrion feels wildly underused and essentially fan-service only at this point, with little forward momentum storyline wise for any of them. (Again, at this point littlefinger just seems to be waiting to get killed). Which is a shame.

Did Varys get outsmarted though? That is the question. Also I don't think of all this is that contrived. Consider that Varys, Tyrion and Dany's entire strategy was built upon supposed surprise attacks that weren't surprise attacks.

I'd also like to point out, whose side is Varys really on? By that, does he even have a side? His conversation with Witch Lady whose name I don't feel like trying to remember to spell was pretty telling. There seems to be a lot of characters now who have this "idea" of bringing ice and fire together, or an understanding of the bigger picture. Bran obviously can see any point in time. Ultimately there is this sense that a few people in the show feel everyone there are pivotal parts to play in a bigger picture that isn't just about a simple war. It either has something to do with the walkers, or something to do with magical dues ex machinae bullshit. Or both. :P

Either way it's highly possible that Varys and his spiders were also giving intel to Cersei for some reason. Or someone in Dany's camp for that matter. Plus Dany knows shit all about these lands, her only trusted tacticians who had sort of a clue were Theon and his sister, and lets remember they both are barely anything from a military perspective than Jamie, even on Jamies worst night. Jamie now post the last few wars and without a hand has become twenty times the tactician. And it was always clear Euron was a better soldier and military man than the rest of the entire Greyjoy family. So I don't think it's that crazy to say they were able to surprise them no.

Wow, that was a packed episode. Basically an excess of cool shit, with an end that felt like watching a computer take its turn in a turn-based strategy game. Loved it.

I'd totally forgotten that Tyrion indirectly got Davos's son killed at the Blackwater. Every moment in Dragonstone was fantastic. Melisandre telling Varys (who was quite aggresive during that encounter) that he's gonna die, Jon signalling Davos to not mention the small matter of his having been murdered, everything Tyrion said, Dany playing it up haaaaawd for the first Westerosi crown she's faced.

Goddamn though, she's getting her ass beat this season. It's kinda great to see Cersei being a legitimate adversary when she seemed an easy picking at the end of the last season, but I guess Dany can thank her good nature for that. No good deed and all. Granted, it's hard to not cheer for Cersei's vengeance against Ellaria at least.

The sleeves on the Unsullied are great. It was nice to see them actually win a battle again. But then Euron took that away from them. Poor buggers can't catch a break. It was nice to see Jaime and Bronn leading the Lannister army (with Sam's pappy and Billy Bones no less). And what an army it was. Very impressive showing during all the battle/army stuff this week. Got a decent sense of the scale of the conflict, even without zeroing in on a specific battle, or seeing a grand shot of a Lord of the Rings-style army clash.

Jorah getting cured is great. I like Jorah. Still rootin for him. Not with Dany I mean, just with, you know, surviving. Heard a fun theory that he might be the Prince That Was Promised, which would be neat.

Gotta figure Samwell's gonna find some sort of old and important White Walker-related information in the stack of ancient texts turning to dust. I like Sam. Rootin for him too. We seldom get just nice things happening, and Sam healing Jorah was nice. That handshake and their farewell was a great moment.

Euron's an affable madman. Hoping he brings some bonafide drowned-god occultish magic to the table, but I won't hold my breath.

Creepy Bran! Did you forget how to talk to people during your travels between The Wall and Winterfell? Good gosh man. Hopefully we'll get some good mystical/delightfully vague/surprisingly revelatory/"wait did they just explain the White Walkers?" stuff from his storyline. Over under on him getting to have that chat with Jon? Last person who aimed to talk with Jon about his parentage lost his head. Hopefully Arya arrives next week too, because someone's clearly set the match speed to "FUCK IT!!"

Can't complain though. Things are happening, and we're not lollygagging about thinking it over. Hopefully Dany does spend at least a little more time lollygagging thinking it over though. Who's left for her? Dragons and everyone she brought over? The Unsullied are over at the Rock. Wonder if Cersei might try to ride this momentum and go for Dragonstone. It'd be a bad idea, but I wonder if she'll do it all the same because what can go wrong, she's got it alllll figured out, leave the goddamn door open. Then whatever force she sends gets fucked up by dragons but possibly takes one out.

Wonder which dragon's gonna die. Drogon's the one we've seen the most, so it taking a ballista bolt to the face would probably be the most affecting. Also he's the biggest and most aggressive and therefore the best candidate for being the zombie ice dragon that faces off against the remaining two dragons. Would be kinda great if the ballista's are just completely ineffective, and that's the big "ya dun fucked up" moment for Cersei.

Of course, the dragon skellingtons under the Red Keep could theoretically be reanimated by the Night King, right? Maybe none of the good dragons have to die for us to get evil undead dragons. Would be quite a scene to have reanimated dragon bones busting out of King's Landing. Seems like a next season thing though, once the war receeds south. If, of course.

With Dany's allies decimated, wonder if good ol' Jon'll do his good ol' Jon thing and be all "we haf to help these people" and justify it all with dragons and dragonglass and her paying the price for doing the right thing by not just destroying King's Landing. Or, speaking of which, what if Dany's like "fuck this shit, I'll burn em myself," and then we finally get a burnt up Red Keep from her vision in the House of the Undying.

Whatever happens I'm hype. The show's almost done and all the fucks are being tossed overboard and crazy shit is bound to happen.

Wasting Alexander Siddig is the greatest travesty of this show.

I see what you mean about it at least just being Dorne and not the Wall, but what they did do in Dorne is still a huge mark against this show for me. Just a completely baffling garbagefire of events. Like, most everything else in Game of Thrones that's not great is still pretty damn good.

Dorne, however, was complete shit.

Things are definitely in a bit of a weird place, which I suppose can be expected since it's all OC with insider info from GRRM now. Lots of weird dialogue, rushed plot developments and a hefty sum of out of character moments. Still I'm enjoying the show, honestly the books have been declining in quality since feast as well.

Cersei suddenly doing so well after burning every bridge in existence and showing signs of losing it seems extremely strange. I expected her to do something nasty and alchemical to damage her people as well as Dany not miraculously become a decent strategist and acquire powerful allies. Granted most of them will probably turn on her at the first chance, but it still seems like a pretty contrived way to keep that particular conflict going for the rest of the season.

Everything about the Dany to Jon Snow conversation felt a bit odd. Both characters putting on airs and being undiplomatic for seemingly no reason, just so Tyrion could be the voice of reason and get them to compromise. Glad they are giving him something to do but the whole scene felt very silly. I love that skinny stone bridge walkway though!

The highlight was definitely Jamie's conversation with Olenna. Perhaps the only one in the episode that was both natural and engaging, even if the leadup to it was rushed.

I feel like - and I doubt this is some unique, wild take on the matter - the way Dany and Jon kept bringing up the topic of lineage and, occasionally, dragons, we're gonna see Jon ride one sooner than later. The two instances that stood out to me the most are the scene with Jon pointing out he's not a Stark (and then the dragon immediately showing up) and the scene with everyone telling Dany she can't go alone even if she has her dragons.

I feel like Euron is gonna sail for Dragonstone or Dany is finally gonna say "fuck this" and take her dragons to fuck shit up. At which point, blahblahblah something will happen and everyone will be like "uhhh, your dragons seem to really like Jon." Jon will mount one dragon, Tyrion will mount the other (shhh, because reasons), and Dany will proceed to lead them to victory.

With Euron's fleet out of the way. Dany will launch her assault on the Lannisters with only two dragons (because one's on loan to Jon to temporarily bolster his strength in the north! Duuuuh!). At least one of those dragons will die or, if nothing else, sustain some serious injury in battle because you can't introduce the ballista and then not have them actually do anything.

Meanwhile, in the north, Jon returns with a dragon. Everyone is happy because it's fucking dragon. Everyone finds out Jon is a Targaryen because who the fuck knows why Bran. Shit goes down, but oops, Night King is all up in yo shit. Boom season over.

I'm well aware my theory is probably full of a fuckton of holes, but it's mostly just fun speculation on my part that I didn't put too much thought into. So, please, go easy on me lol.

That said - and, again, I doubt this is some hot take - the one thing I am willing to bet anything on is there's no fucking way the gold Jamie got at Highgarden is making it's way to King's Landing. Something is gonna go wrong. The potential support of the Iron Bank (I say potential because in the preview for episode 4, they make a note to point out they'll support Cersei as soon as they get their gold) is like the main thing making her so confident right now and the only thing that would essentially guarantee her victory. Remove that and she's back into panic mode.

Of course, I could be and most likely am very wrong about all of this...but I woke up in the middle night, can't fall back asleep, and needed something to do. So here I am.

You stand in the presence of Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen, rightful heir to the Iron Throne, rightful Queen of the Andels and the First Men, Protector of the Seven Kingdoms, The Mother of Dragons, the Kahleesi of the Great Grass Sea, The Unburnt, The Breaker of Chains!

... This is Jon Snow.

Schooled!

I really love the nuance in expressions in this scene. Missandei is pumping up the flash around Daenerys and Jon and Davos actually don't seem even a little bit impressed. Northerners indeed, way too down to earth. It's great. And you know this is the purpose and intent, because it's not as if Jon would have a lack of titles if they gave him one for every of his grant accomplishments. What would he even be? Jon Snow, King in the North, Slayer of White Walkers, Warrior of Life, Defyer of Death, Savior of Free Men, Victor of Bastards, MostCourageous Lord Commander of the Knight's Watch and Avenger of the Red Wedding. It would sound even better than Daenerys, the thing is, they just don't care about that.

This episode is my favorite so far. I truly love the interactions between Jon and Daenerys and I am glad they have given it at least some decent amount of screentime. I was anticipating they would play it off again as they did when Jon was first mentioned to Daenerys. It seems as if Daenerys has a subconscious respect for Jon, which I really liked. [Everyone loves what they are good at. - I don't.] So good! Loved the interactions between Tyrion and Jon as well. Lots of good character exposition in this episode. I hope we get more out of Jon meeting Daenerys than just the dragonglass deal though. I want her to fly Jon back to the North on her dragons for some reason, possibly so she could meet with more people who have seen the Night King, like Thormund.

Davos sticking up for Jon was again as he did with Lady Mormont, but this time sparing no graces to say how things really are. Reinforcing the hilarious statement earlier of 'this is Jon Snow', by telling Daenerys Jon doesn't even have a proper name and was chosen anyway because of his achievements. I hope Cersei will be informed by Jaime that Tyrion did in fact not kill Joffrey once again. Also, uncharacteristic for me, I had trouble giving a shit about the Dornish girls being tortured the way they were. I really, really don't like their characters and what they stood for. Now, I hated what Theon did as well, but at some point I hoped he stopped getting tortured and consequently I hoped he stopped being Reek. I am still secretly hoping he will find his way. So it's weird that I don't care about these Dornish people at all. I think it is because they have been acting poorly since the beginning and were pretty one-dimensional dicks.

What I liked less was more implied storytelling and quick cuts of the battle for Casterly Rock. I am also not sure I like how weak the Unsullied have always seemed even though they were talked up to be some of the best soldiers around. When have we ever seen the Unsullied win a battle which no other army would have easily won as well? So far, they have only won when they had a vastly larger force. Whenever they were outnumbered or even at even odds, they have lost. I want to see what these Unsullied are truly capable of and both these quick cuts and overarching narrative are doing a very poor job of showing me that. If I had to rate all the armies by what we have seen them do, not what was told they are capable of, then the Unsullied are deadlocked in last place.

Olenna with the most savage mic drop in recorded history.

Dani needs to stop acting like a spoiled brat.

Tyrion is getting destroyed by his older brother

Euron is a sea wizard and thats fucked up

Be creepier Bran

Jaime has been holding all the L's this season

Will someone please kill Little Finger already

that was not bad!

QFT. Also- the more all-knowing and all-seeing Bran gets, the more boring he is and the more likely I think this show is going to make mistakes. Time travel (unless your show is expressly about that) is almost always handled poorly. I'm full up on self-fulfilling prophecy fiction.

@zevvion: Jon Snow, the White Wolf. King in the North. Lord of Winterfell. Uniter of the Northmen and Wildlings. Avenger of the Red Wedding and the Undying Lord Commander of the Nights Watch *ghost pads to his side*.

TBH I kind of wish after she had all her titles read out, Jon just stood tall, looked her straight in the eye and said: "Jon Snow, Bastard of Winterfell".

yea, the hodor stuff was already enough but he is absolutely gonna be the plot mcguffin. we're gonna find out that HE built the wall and he's gonna go back in time and kill the night king or some dumb bullshit like that.

I don't think that's likely. I think Bran is an enabler. A catalyst. Something that makes Jon and Daenerys efforts possible. But I don't think he will be anything more than that.

Also, everyone keeps saying Daenerys is being naive, a brat and Sansa-like, but she wasn't in this episode, if nothing else. Her wanting Jon to pledge to her is not a spoiled unrealistic request. After all, she is the queen by the rules of the land, not Cersei. I'm not saying Jon should say yes, but her wanting it and pleading for it is hardly surprising.

On top of that, she seemed open to reason at least during the discussion. She gave Jon what he came for, at least what he didn't want to leave with. Even though he still wouldn't call her queen and hasn't promised to help her at all.

I liked when Dany and Tyrion were talking about Davos accidentally spilling the beans on Jon getting fucking stabbed 12 times and they just passed it off as Northerner figure of speech

My prediction is Dany and Jon will inevitably sleep together at some point and when he takes off his shirt she will see all his stab wounds and say "Holy shit you actually did get stabbed in the heart"

I noticed that Dany was ready at the drop of a hat to talk herself up about all the things she believes makes her worthy/great/etc. While Jon seems reluctant to talk himself up, he's just concerned with saving people, himself be damned.

In regards to people being super hyped about the Night King having an Ice Dragon, do we have any proof that White Walkers have the ability to reanimate animals? Do dragons count as animals? I mean we saw in the first episode that the army of the dead has giants now, but I think giants technically count as humans

Fuck me is Emilia Clarke the worst actress on the planet

I don't know if it's just because she's the most boring character on the show, or she has shit dialogue, but my God is her acting wooden as fuck

@snakeeater321: In the book, Jon Snow thinks about Ice Dragons multiple times in reference to an area along the Wall.

The ice pressed close around them, and he could feel the cold seeping into his bones, the weight of the Wall above his head. It felt like walking down the gullet of an ice dragon.

GRRM also has a children's book called The Ice Dragon that is set in the same world.

None of this made it into the show, and almost certainly won't because it's such a small thing. There's also nothing in the show that suggests the White Walkers can raise dead animals.

The writing on the new season has been pretty bad so far..... Feels like they're just moving pieces in service of the spectacle. This was also the case with season 6 to a lesser extent. So far there is way too little character interaction and just dialogue in general. It feels like characters talk to each other but don't actually talk to each other. They talk about doing things, things that are happening, things that will happen and have happened. Then there is a montage or something about things that would have taken a full episode at best in previous seasons and then it starts all over again. No one is actually talking to each other, it's just.....really strange how things have become rather superficial and bland in like 4, 5 episodes (it started with Bastards and Winds last season and has continued into this one). It's paced like a movie now, all those long character dialogues, build up and contemplation you would expect from Thrones feels gone now. I like my epic fantasy battles, but that is ultimately not what Thrones is about.

I expected them to be able to juggle these two things simultaneously now that the show is ending and the Big Epic Battles are coming but so far it seems rather shallow on the character interaction and story front.

Bummer.

The show runners are in full "let's wrap this shit up" mode. All dialogue is in service of wrapping up the story and getting to the "big" moments; which imo are not "big" unless they are properly built up to. There is no longer a sense of tension in these moments, just constant attempts at releasing tension that isn't there because they haven't invested the characters in the moments taking place.

Bran's (extremely) sudden 180 into a traumatized and emotionless husk of a person is a very apt metaphor for where I think the story is at. Especially when he says something along the lines of "I see it all, but it's all in pieces" is pretty close to how I view the show. They're showing us all these pieces, and they tell you they're going to happen before they do, but none of it feels connected in a meaningful way because the characters are so wooden. Like, look at Littlefinger, he's had fuck all worth saying in this season and the last. And they'll probably kill him soon, but we just won't give a shit.

@gnomeonfire: they rode dead horses.

@ripelivejam: Oh wow, how could I forget that? lol.

Hm, I actually thought people would like this episode better than the stuff before, but it seems plenty of you dislike it.

@zevvion: I liked it :(

No Arya or Hound. 0/5

Seriously though, Lady Olenna is savage as FUCK! Went out like the OG that she truly was.

Also super happy to see Bronn back.

With Arya seemingly coming back to Winterfell, we're really getting spoiled with Stark reunions. Even one seemed like a very low chance once upon a time.

You know how these threads tend to go, right? :D

I enjoyed it. Again, we're seeing the time crunch: Euron just appears on the other side of the continent out of nowhere, Highgarden falls to a stiff breeze, but it all feels somewhat necessary if there goal is to put Dany in a position where she has to work with Jon. There's just not enough time to devote an episode to a protracted siege, especially when the end result doesn't end in the death/capture of Cersei, Dany, or Jon, the three remaining major players on the living team. It's the best way to save some time.

But enough about excuses, let's talk about the undeniably good shit:

1. Cersei's revenge. A lot of characters have done a lot of terrible shit in this show. Very few of those characters have had justifiable motivations for doing those things; Joffery was just a little piece of shit, Ramsey was just a big piece of shit, etc. Cersei herself has done a lot of truly awful things often with little reason, but like Arya taking out the Freys, there's something different about her poetic murder of Tyene. Myrcella's death was really the end for Cersei; Joffery was a monster and a king, Tommen was an easily swayed king, and both of those dispositions can get you killed, but Myrcella was "just a little girl" and fairly removed from the great game. Her death, especially after repeatedly hearing that "we don't kill little girls in Dorne" from Oberyn, resigned her to the fact that all of her children were going to die and there is nothing she could do to stop it (later causing the prophesy to be self-fulfilling, of course). And the method of her death speaks to the way Cersei's mind works; not the poisoning, which was an obvious way to go, but the fact that she is making Ellaria watch is a reflection of her thoughts about her mother and Myrcella and the aftershock of their deaths. The idea of "now what happens to them?" is horrifying to her, so she decides to inflict that horror right back on Ellaria. A very well put together, well acted scene.
2. Olenna's mic drop: just a fantastic send-off to one of the best characters. She gets the last laugh and does so with a scene that only highlights how great of an actress we are losing.
3. Davos keeps it real: This scene does a fantastic job of contrasting Dany and Jon's path to their current positions and how they view what it means to be a ruler. Neither ever had formal training to be a King or a Queen, or the expectation to ever become one, but both absorbed how the people around them carried themselves and that had a large effect on their current actions. Maybe I'm just being too kind to Emilia Clarke, but I feel like a lot of the hate she gets in certain scenes stems from an intentional choice to play Dany as girl who is trying to act like a ruler but isn't quite sure how to go about it, hence the ridiculous titles ("Anyone who needs to say "I am the king!" is no king" -Tywin "Kingschooler" Lannister), the inflections in her speech, the dragon showboating, etc. Jon, by contrast, is a natural; he was picked by his people to be their king and as such doesn't need a laundry list of accomplishments to legitimize his position, nor does he really care for the prestige of it all or who deserves what when he's got a zombie apocalypse at his doorstep. I wish they would have leaned into the "well you've got three fucking dragons flying around, how hard is it to believe that all sorts of weird shit is going on now?" angle and drop any sort of skeptic plotline, but Davos cemented his reputation as the number one hype man in Westeros with his speech and the dressing down of Dany's titles.

Overall, I enjoyed the hell of this episode and can't wait for the next. If it wasn't for hindsight and what they could have done with the time they wasted in the past, I'd be perfectly fine with the pacing as well. As it is, I think they are doing a great job with what they have left to work with.

@zevvion: wouldn't Jon be the rightful king by rule of the land? Rhaegar was the rightful heir and Jon is his son

The time crunch is an explanation, but I don`t think it works as an excuse since it neither redeems the showrunners nor does help the viewers in any way. As someone mentioned earlier in the thread it does not matter if we get to the ending if we stop caring along the way. Things like battles being won not by the smartest people or the people with the biggest armies, but instead by whoever the plot the demands to win to create tension makes me lose investment in the characters and storylines. I am already a lot less invested in the southern war storyline than I was a few seasons ago. Wether it was poor planning or things changing during production the writers backed themselves into a corner and have been sloppily getting out of it. Dany being way too overpowered and Cersei underpowered to be a threat being the main offender this season.

Another big problem that I have both with this season and last is that it seems like the only way the writers know how to make someone look smart is by making everyone else incompetent. They have done it with Dany and her people like with their nonsensical plan to take Casterly rock and with Sansa this episode where they show how good of a ruler she is by having the Maester not know how long winters can be and having the armorers forget how to make armor fit for winter use.

A last critique from me is more of a nitpick, but the Dany line about centuries of Targ peace and prosperity was so ridiculous. Either Dany knows nothing about history or she was trying to maybe tell the worst lie ever. One of the Targ kings was literally named Magor the cruel. Probably the worst war in Westeros history was the Targ civil war that then led directly to four more wars in the form of the Blackfyre rebellions. To be fair there were also good Targ kings and good times under them. On average the Targs were neither any worse or better rulers than anyone else and the times they ruled were neither more peaceful nor more prosperous than other times either.

On the good side the acting continues to be good to great (with the exception of Clarke). You have the usual greats like Davos and Tyrion, but Lena Headey and the Queen of thorns both absolutely killed it this episode. Their respective scenes were definitely the highlights of the episode.

While the main story arc continues to have some serious issues we got some great acting and some good character moments this episode combined with the usual fantastic production and spectacle. It was a mixed bag similar to the two previous episodes.

Jon is still a bastard, so he does not have any real claim on the throne.

Aegon (and therefore the Targs) won the right to rule through conquest which is the same thing Robert did, so you could make the argument that Cersei is just as much a legitimate ruler as Dany. There are a whole lot of other reasons as to why Cersei should not have been able to logically take the throne much less hold it, but I don`t think that is one of them.

There's one thing from episode 3 that I haven't seen mentioned yet.

Cersei and Euron both gets some serious and literal murder boners.

While Olenna's mic drop at the end was indeed fantastic, the her entire death and Jaime's orchestration of it serves a perfect comparison to the poisoning at the beginning of the episode, orchestrated by Cersei. Of how different they have become as people, and, as Olenna put it, how she's going to be the death of him.

Seems like the smartest play would've been landing at Dorne and marching to king's landing and the Tyrells meeting them before they got there. Meeting at Dragonstone then having the Sands and Queen of Thrones go there then go back home to get their armies wasn't the best plan. Either way the writers had to have Dany take some loses, so she's the underdog and so she might need Jon, but I would've liked to have seen it done better - in a way that doesn't make Tyrion and Dany look so incompetent. I assume Dany is going to win the next battle next episode, I'd like to see it go back and forth - not just the Lannisters winning until they finally lose.

I don't have much faith in Dany herself. I think she just got lucky with the dragons and having the best followers like Jorah, Barriston, Grey Worm, Tyrion, etc while Robb got stuck with the Freys, Boltons, and Karstarks. Robb won things himself, Stannis also had a better mind for battle than her, Renly had a better political mind than her, and so on. Dany has only made it so far because the story needed her to. If it was really survival of the fittest with no main characters or plot armor she would've been dead a while ago, so I'm more disappointed in Tyrion and Varys than her, since I don't expect her to really do things herself.

I mostly interpret it as Daenerys putting on a role that she thinks fits her ideas of a what ruler should be.

Oh boy, writing sure has put emphasis on the speed over the grace. Still after numerous long seasons I guess it is refreshing but at this rate my eyes might roll out of their sockets before the series final.

And yes, I would like the twist where Daenerys would actually go mad.

Rhaegar could've married Jon's mom and even if he didn't their culture prefers male rulers, so if everyone in the country knew the truth they might still go with Jon over Dany. I don't think that really matters. Unless Dany dies and the only option is to allow Cersai to rule, I don't see Jon caring about the throne.

Since he was already married to Elia Martell and the marriage between him and Lyanna would have happened in secret (possibly under duress) I don`t think people would see it as legit, but as you say I also don`t think it will be relevant. Jon`s lineage will probably be important for Dragon related reasons instead.

I don't much care about Jon's parentage, because I'm banking on the Iron Throne not mattering a single damn by the end of the show.

A heads up for everybody; seems like HBO got hacked and a bunch of stuff may be leaked over the next days/weeks. I don't know yet if this contains any GoT related materials/episodes beyond a script leak from next week's show, but I think it's a good idea to restate the spoiler policy of the thread, i.e. if you are going to talk about anything that hasn't aired, especially leaks (and I would prefer if you just didn't talk about leaks at all, but it's not like I can stop you) you need to spoiler tag that shit. Seems like you may need to keep your head down if you want to wait for the broadcast, so consider this a PSA.

I would caution you to not mix book information with show information; as far as any show-only watcher is concerned, the only periods of instability mentioned by name are the Mad King's rule and the Dance of the Dragons. I'm not sure if the word Blackfyre is even mentioned; the vast majority of the Targaryen dynasty is only vaguely referenced, if at all, so I'll give her a pass on this one as, from a viewer's perspective, she isn't demonstrably wrong. Plus, given the fact that she's never been formally schooled (outside of what her brother told her about their family, and we all know what a fantastic source of accurate information he probably was), I don't have much of a problem with this given the context of the show. She'll either be contradicted at some point in the future, or the show is taking a"most historical Targs were cool except for one or two fuckers" kind of approach; either way, I don't think it's a big deal.

The rest of your points I more or less agree with, although they obviously aren't bugging me nearly as much as they are bothering you.

@mirado: If we're talking only the context of the show, then the only past rules the viewer is privy to are the Mad King and Robert. The Mad King did a terrible job and was a terrible ruler, while Robert held the peace, as demonstrated by the first season.

@gnomeonfire: There's been a few other mentions of Targaryen history; Maegor the Cruel is named dropped by a few characters (Sansa knows he built the Red Keep, the pyromancers reference him, etc), Shireen has at least one scene about the Dance of Dragons with her father, the show invented a Maegor III for Tywin to talk to Tommen about (along with the real Baelor), and of course there are numerous mentions of Aegon the Conqueror and his sisters at various different points. My issue with the original point revolves around whether or not the show has portrayed historical Targaryen rule before the Mad King as being particularly unstable and marked by repeated periods of strife; unlike the books, the show just hasn't gone into great detail about any of the Targaryen kings beyond the Mad King himself, so I don't see all that much to contradict Dany's statement in the show, even if we ignore the fact that she just might not know a great deal of her family's history to begin with. It (and she) seem to imply the that Mad King was an anomaly; some may have been crazy, she seems to be arguing, but few were cruel, especially to his scale. The truth is different in the books, of course.

I just don't think it's a nitpick worth pursuing if you keep in mind the average viewer's lack of context.

Great episode, we get a little bit of politics, a little bit of nudity, a little bit of combat. I like that the pace has gone up noticeably and that no one scene felt like it dragged on that much, although that Euron marching through the city scene could be shaved off by a bit.

Jon and Dany meeting had some great moments that some people brought up already. My favorite would have to be Davos swooping in to say what Jon would be too proud to say and giving Dany a bit of a slap to make her realize she's not a Snowflake. It's almost cute how Tyrion had to pretty much hold their hands and set up a play date between Jon and Dany to agree to something together. But yeah when Dany said "People thought dragons were gone forever but yet here they are" I so wanted Jon to interrupt her about the undead.

Cersei's scene with the Dorne ladies was pretty good because it's a pretty fucked up and cruel punishment to the mother and I thought the actress did a pretty good job conveying her playing out how it's all going to go down in her head before it has even happened yet and crying tears of unfathomable sadness, and Cersei is the Eric Cartman that's gonna be there to lap up those tears. And then immediately getting hot and bothered and just had to pounce on Jamie right after that and just not giving a ffffuck who knows about it. She's so confident and on top of the world right now that it's gonna be satisfying when it all crumbles around her.

Watching Bran and Sanza's reunion was interesting so far as how I wonder Arya's reunion with those two will go. Will it go the way of Arya and Sanza hugging it out and Arya also being like, "wtf happened to him?". Or will the now battle hardened and weary Arya driven by vengeance also come off a little less cheery than Sanza had expected? To which Sanza thinks back to Littlefinger's words of trust no one and starts to think that maybe her old family is no longer the family she once knew and that she needs to look out for #1.

Sam/Jorah had a nice ending. That moment when Sam reached his hand out for a shake and Jorah realized he could touch another human again without judgement or fear of infecting them was sweet. Jorah better head on over to Dragonstone and actually advise the queen on how to use her army tactically against Jaime and Euron. And if Jon is still around for that, Jorah can also mention that a certain maester apprentice who once fought with his father named Sam cured him of his greyscale and Jon or Davos can be like, "oh yeah he's one of ours, nbd, p.s. he's also the one who told us about the dragonglass here" to earn more Targaryen reputation points. And those scrolls Sam was tasked to copy are definitely the long forgotten scrolls with knowledge on the white walkers and undead that he came for.

And the last 15-20 minutes with the two battles and the scene between Jamie and Olenna was a great ending. The Tyrion narration over the first battle was nice but I liked that they didn't linger on either of the battles. And Olenna, still a threat to the end, gonna miss this player. I like what she said about Cersei destroying him and in fact want to take it one step further in the other direction and have Jamie realize that Cersei is a monster and have to be the one to kill her. Just as he starts the show with the reputation of being a Kingslayer, with this, he would come full circle and also be a Queenslayer at the end.

Well, except there horses.

Yeah, sorry. Went a bit overboard with that one. It was really just a nitpick and didn`t really bother me. I just found it really funny when she said that. You`re right about not mixing book lore and show lore, but my problem is that I don`t really remember what made it into the show any more.

As you say though they do mention Maegor the cruel (which might just be ironic I guess?) and the Dance with Dragons, so the Targ dynasty was far from peaceful all the time during the 300 years they were in power. Again though it`s not a big deal just something I thought was a bit silly. Same as the ballista reveal last episode.