Also, killing things is a human quality. Humans have out killed every other species since the dawn of humans. Every time I beat something in the race for survival (i.e. eat a chicken, or push someone off a cliff) that is considered humane apparently.
"Also, killing things is a human quality. Humans have out killed every other species since the dawn of humans. Every time I beat something in the race for survival (i.e. eat a chicken, or push someone off a cliff) that is considered humane apparently."
Isn't resigning ourselves to the baser instincts that we held at the beginning of our "sprouting" as beings putting too little faith in us?
...Who decided that other animals were simply here for human beings to survive?"
The human race... Although, if you disagree, feel free to become a vegan. More meat for me.
"
I'm not arguing that eating meat is wrong at all. I'm simply saying that to think animals only exist because humans need them is a tad bit ignorant. Does that mean that if every human died tomorrow that all the other animals would cease to exist as well?"
Humans naturally evolved our way to the top of the food chain, meaning it is natural for us to eat meat. I'm not saying their sole purpose on this earth is to be eaten by man but our ancestors weren't hunted by other predators for no reason at all.
To me, humane means killing in a painless fashion or a good reason.. Food is a good reason. As long as slaughter houses aren't just killing cows and throwing their bodies in a ditch some were ill be ok with eating meat.
Something my dad taught me as a young boy when i used to go out in my back yard and kill squerrels with a BB gun, Dont ever kill anything unless your going to eat it... and its that very reason why i hate squerrels to this very day.
"Killing another human = not humane Killing an animal of a lesser race = depends"
Killing an animal has a possibility of being humane, but killing another human isn't? Just for the "shits", it certainly isn't. But if your in the situation when your mother is killed, you want that asshole dead. Besides, death row is essentially a shortened life-sentence, since they spend an average of 10 years in there. Which blows, since they should be dead already and it costs a hefty amount of money to house them.
"I'm not going to be stupid and claim that we're doing the best thing for our survival by eating them, because we're perfectly capable of living of of a vegetarian diet. Perfectly honestly, I don't really care."
Sure, if you want to grow up sickly... My uncle is a doctor and he says that there is no substitute for the protein provided in meat. Tofu and all of that simulated protein doesn't match meat because meat has certain enzyme's not found anywhere else, which is essential to healthy up bringing.
"
This is not true. Protein is protein.
And I know this Indian chick and she is a vegetarian, she's not sickly at all."
Vitamin B-12 is not available from plant or fruit sources, and must be produced, extracted and added to vegan diets artificially. In nature, all humans got Vitamin B12 from animal sources, and has done for millions of years.
That is incredibly incorrect. Proteins are made up of amino acids. In our body, the proteins are broken down into amino acids, so they can be rebuilt into the proteins our body needs. Our body can also change these amino acids into the ones we need, so if we've got lots of amino acid X, and we need amino acid Y it can turn it into amino acid Y. However, it can't do this with all amino acids and there are about 20 amino acids known as essential amino acids that we need to get from our diet. These essential amino acids are extremely common in meat, a couple of different types of meat and you're virtually guaranteed to have enough of all of them to last a week. In plant's they are much less common, and it takes a much broader range of protein rich plants in order to get all of the essential amino acids. Vegetarians need to monitor their diets very closely to ensure they get all of the amino acids they need. If they don't it is extremely unhealthy and can lead to huge health problems.
Anyway, back to the subject of humanely killing something. I've actually seen a pig being slaughtered and I thought it was one of the most interesting things I've ever seen. This pig trotted into the room happy. It was a happy pig. It was on an adventure to a new place it had never been before and it was curious and very happy. Before it even knew what was happening it got an electric shock to the back of the head and it was unconscious. It didn't make a sound, it was just knocked out. It was then tied up and it had its throat cut and blood poured out. That pig died happy. It didn't know what was happening. It was brilliant. It was incredibly humane.
"inhumane death": Absolutely slaughtering an organism, painfully killing it.
"humane death": Making a death as fast as possible, with as little pain as possible.
But in reality, there is no real "Humane" aspect of killing. But we are animals, death is a natural factor that is key to the survival of others. It must exist, the way an animal disposes of the other is completely up to the predator.
As for me, I could care less. If it's good meat, it goes in ma belly.
"Like what is the least painful way of killing a human being."
It doesn't matter. Is there anything humane about killing in the first place? I mean, it's taking another life, whether it's a human or a cow or a chicken or a pig or whatever.
Answer: There is NOTHING humane about killing. The idea that people feel a need to add some falsehood to an already heinous act is senseless by its own right.
Therefore, people seriously need to stop crusading about this and just deal with the way the world is.
"
This got me thinking: We go to jail for killing humans, yet we are paid and given a reward for killing hundreds of animals?? =O WTF??
"I thought they numbed them with electric shocks before they blow there brains out Better than shooting it with a bow, or a rifle Not eating meat is unnatural, its too damn delicious!"
Umm...yeah, you're right. God forbid a human being could actually kill, skin, butcher, and cook their own fucking meals!!!
well at the end of the day you still have to eat. if cow gets treated "nicely" before it gets killed (painlessly) and sliced up then it is humane. unfortunately this is rarely the case and all we do is turn a blind eye to it. Unfortunately cows can#t speak up to have rights for cows so apart from angry radical vegetarians nobody cares.
Of course you gotta be more watchful of what you eat. Now there are a couple of studies that back me up. Though vegetarians do have less B12 in their diet (without suplements) they don't get sick because of these deficiencies.
Besides, THOUGH CURRENTLY UNRELATED, it is proven that a vegetarian or a "moderate" vegetarian lifestyle have a lower mortality rate specially in ischemic heart diseases compared to non-vegetarians.
"Although this finding failed to reach statistical significance, it may be truly attributed to abstinence from meat and is in line with the HYPOTHESIS that animal fat and a high cholesterol diet promote ischemic heart disease"
The idea that humans should be different in any way from the rest of the animal kingdom just baffles me. Humans and their bullshit attempts at compassion...
"
Humans ARE different. We have conscience, and free will. Humans invented torture, slavery, abuse, war, pollution, etc... To say we are the 'same' as other animals ignores basic fact. We have become lords of the earth, and evil overlords for 99% of the time. We intentionally and needless slaughter entire species for sport. We kill things not to eat, but because it's "cool" and douchewad cowards like Dick Cheney who skipped out of military service runs around shooting small birds to boost his small dick confidence.
Humans are different, very different indeed. Where animals like wolves, bears and cheetahs try and live a natural life, we are insistent on enslaving herds, force feeding them hormones, overblowing their livers, raising them in the dark and all sorts of satanic and unnatural acts for the simple reasons of greed, gluttony and amusement.
" I'd take an Indian over a White man view on this though. Like the buffalo, the Indian killed a buffalo, then used its meat for food, its skin for tps and stuff, it's bones for spear tips and arrowheads and weapons and stuff, it's sinew for bow strings even. Pretty much everything on the buffalo. Then white man comes along and kills it, skins it, and lets it rot. There's a difference between killing for survival, and just killing stuff. Not that Indians are perfect or anything, they did scalp people and do some weird shit."
Good points, except for the fact that the White americans actually invented the scalping business. Bogus history books have placed it on the native americans, when in fact they were just retaliating against the official US policy of paying for scalps of indians, and paying some tribes to go scalp other tribes.
Killing animals for food is natural Feeding domestic cows corn, reducing their lifespan 70%, injecting them w/ hormones and keeping them in feces laden over crowded conditions is a cruel unnatural system only humans could develop.
I respect the animals I eat, and I'm appreciative of their place in the food chain. If everyone were vegetarians, we'd all starve and most people on the planet would be malnourished. I believe in nature, and I believe in the food chain. I will never stop eating meat.
"When you kill something humanely its essentially a death for a better purpose or a death carried out as swiftly and painless as possible, at least that's what i think."
Exactly. Death is a natural part of life. In the case of animals, many people believe (including myself) that they were placed on Earth to help sustain human existence (as food). As long as we treat them with a reasonable amount of respect and compassion, I take no issue with ending their lives for sustenance. In other words, pretty much what drakesfortune said above my post, most eloquently.
That is incredibly incorrect. Proteins are made up of amino acids. In our body, the proteins are broken down into amino acids, so they can be rebuilt into the proteins our body needs. Our body can also change these amino acids into the ones we need, so if we've got lots of amino acid X, and we need amino acid Y it can turn it into amino acid Y. However, it can't do this with all amino acids and there are about 20 amino acids known as essential amino acids that we need to get from our diet. These essential amino acids are extremely common in meat, a couple of different types of meat and you're virtually guaranteed to have enough of all of them to last a week. In plant's they are much less common, and it takes a much broader range of protein rich plants in order to get all of the essential amino acids. Vegetarians need to monitor their diets very closely to ensure they get all of the amino acids they need. If they don't it is extremely unhealthy and can lead to huge health problems. "
I'm glad someone who knows what they are talking about responded. I didn't even want to start an argument with them seeing as trying to explain something to someone who doesn't want to accept it is pointless. +1
a humane death for anyone is to inject them with an overdose of Dopamine, this gives them a real big high, so much they OD and die.
However, if the purpose is to eat the animal afterwards, we can't do that since all meat would have dopamine in it making us high when we eat it. but OD on drugs in the way for pets and humans, as for livestock, I'd say a shot from a Magnum in the head in a soundproof room so the others won't hear it is as humane as we can get.
Remember, in nature when the lion kills its prey, that's not exactly humane either.
"Hamz said: In the case of animals, many people believe (including myself) that they were place on Earth to help sustain human existence (as food).
What do you mean you "believe that they were place on earth"... Are you saying you don't believe the proven unifying theme of the biological sciences, evolution? Good gracious we are truly in trouble as a society when people openly reject science and rational thought in favor of fairy tales and dreams of santa claus.
"I'm still waiting for the chewable pill with all the nutrition you need for the entire day."
Can't be done, even if you have all the nutrients, the pill is only the size of a pill. We need to eat food as well, since that is where the energy we get comes from. nutrients just make us healthy, not full.
"Hamz said: In the case of animals, many people believe (including myself) that they were place on Earth to help sustain human existence (as food).
What do you mean you "believe that they were place on earth"... Are you saying you don't believe the proven unifying theme of the biological sciences, evolution? Good gracious we are truly in trouble as a society when people openly reject science and rational thought in favor of fairy tales and dreams of santa claus."
Beliefs are a complicated thing. In my version, evolution and Creationism can both play a part. God creates everything, and all evolve over time. Bam! Everybody's happy ;-)
"Hamz said: In the case of animals, many people believe (including myself) that they were place on Earth to help sustain human existence (as food).
What do you mean you "believe that they were place on earth"... Are you saying you don't believe the proven unifying theme of the biological sciences, evolution? Good gracious we are truly in trouble as a society when people openly reject science and rational thought in favor of fairy tales and dreams of santa claus."
Beliefs are a complicated thing. In my version, evolution and Creationism can both play a part. God creates all, and all evolve over time. Bam! Everybody's happy ;-)"
If only people could just agree on something that easily:P.
"Like what is the least painful way of killing a human being."
It doesn't matter. Is there anything humane about killing in the first place? I mean, it's taking another life, whether it's a human or a cow or a chicken or a pig or whatever.
Answer: There is NOTHING humane about killing. The idea that people feel a need to add some falsehood to an already heinous act is senseless by its own right.
Therefore, people seriously need to stop crusading about this and just deal with the way the world is.
"
Did you just flip flop? I don't oppose killing for subsistence. Just the way it's done."
LOL Nope, didn't flip flop. I don't care how it's killed. I'm simply saying that the idea of people saying they need to be "killed humanely" when killing in its own right is not a humane act is kind of a contradictory idea. That's all.
"Hamz said: In the case of animals, many people believe (including myself) that they were place on Earth to help sustain human existence (as food).
What do you mean you "believe that they were place on earth"... Are you saying you don't believe the proven unifying theme of the biological sciences, evolution? Good gracious we are truly in trouble as a society when people openly reject science and rational thought in favor of fairy tales and dreams of santa claus."
Beliefs are a complicated thing. In my version, evolution and Creationism can both play a part. God creates all, and all evolve over time. Bam! Everybody's happy ;-)"
If only people could just agree on something that easily:P."
Umm, you can't agree on an imagined scenario based on nothing more than wishful thinking.
Creationism is the rejection of fact, data, history, science, and rational thought. You can't ask rational people to reject facts just so we can all be happy. Evolution isn't based on belief systems, it's based on factual evidence that has been peer reviewed, scrutinized, revised, revisited, tested, etc..
I don't "believe" in evolution because I like the idea of it. I "believe" it the same way I believe in gravity. Facts and overwhelming volumes of evidence, experiments, etc...
Of course evolution does not attempt or even concern itself w/ the origins of the universe. So if someone wants to believe a giant man created the universe, I would not say "oh noes evolution" as those are simply unrelated. No one has a proven theory for the creation of the universe. People assume this "proves" god did it. But that was the same thought before gravity was explained, people assumed it was god doing something or giant magnets or whatever. Before there is a proven scientific explanation, every tom dick and harry will jump in w/ some half baked fairy tale that "explains" things.
Humans by our nature attempt to created 1-1 scenarios of cause and effect. There was a big rain storm, ergo the rain gods were not happy. We kill some virgins, no rainstorms for a few months, boom we associate cause and effect. Killing virgins prevents hurricanes. It's in our nature to constantly look for causality in simplistic ways. THis can manifest often as the disorder known as OCD in humans.
And this is why Science and Religion are different and should be kept far apart. Unfortunately religion has infected the education system, politics, economics, sports and just about everything. People outwardly reject fact in favor of fairy tale, and they assume that somehow religion has a *rightful* place next to science.
Religion is a belief in something that can never be proven, it should be kept far away from things that have been proven. They will always say "well you can't disprove it" when in fact the onus on proof is on those making a claim, and factually it is disproved every time we create a new biological drug, or cure a disease.
"Like what is the least painful way of killing a human being."
It doesn't matter. Is there anything humane about killing in the first place? I mean, it's taking another life, whether it's a human or a cow or a chicken or a pig or whatever.
Answer: There is NOTHING humane about killing. The idea that people feel a need to add some falsehood to an already heinous act is senseless by its own right.
Therefore, people seriously need to stop crusading about this and just deal with the way the world is.
"
Did you just flip flop? I don't oppose killing for subsistence. Just the way it's done."
LOL Nope, didn't flip flop. I don't care how it's killed. I'm simply saying that the idea of people saying they need to be "killed humanely" when killing in its own right is not a humane act is kind of a contradictory idea. That's all.
I say...BRING ON THE BEEF!!!
"
Most of us who are against factory farms and needless animal cruelty just want things like, chickens to be able to stand up and walk around instead of being forced to sit for their entire caged lives. We advocate methods of killing that are not needlessly cruel for the sake of $00.10 on a carton of eggs.
I practice what I preach, I buy free range, organic, grass fed animal products whenever I can, and I almost always pay more for them. Is it so wrong to want animals to have the ability to breath fresh air and walk around for a few months before we eat the beejesus out of them?
Umm, you can't agree on an imagined scenario based on nothing more than wishful thinking.
Creationism is the rejection of fact, data, history, science, and rational thought. You can't ask rational people to reject facts just so we can all be happy. Evolution isn't based on belief systems, it's based on factual evidence that has been peer reviewed, scrutinized, revised, revisited, tested, etc..
I don't "believe" in evolution because I like the idea of it. I "believe" it the same way I believe in gravity. Facts and overwhelming volumes of evidence, experiments, etc...
Of course evolution does not attempt or even concern itself w/ the origins of the universe. So if someone wants to believe a giant man created the universe, I would not say "oh noes evolution" as those are simply unrelated. No one has a proven theory for the creation of the universe. People assume this "proves" god did it. But that was the same thought before gravity was explained, people assumed it was god doing something or giant magnets or whatever. Before there is a proven scientific explanation, every tom dick and harry will jump in w/ some half baked fairy tale that "explains" things.
Humans by our nature attempt to created 1-1 scenarios of cause and effect. There was a big rain storm, ergo the rain gods were not happy. We kill some virgins, no rainstorms for a few months, boom we associate cause and effect. Killing virgins prevents hurricanes. It's in our nature to constantly look for causality in simplistic ways. THis can manifest often as the disorder known as OCD in humans.
And this is why Science and Religion are different and should be kept far apart. Unfortunately religion has infected the education system, politics, economics, sports and just about everything. People outwardly reject fact in favor of fairy tale, and they assume that somehow religion has a *rightful* place next to science.
Religion is a belief in something that can never be proven, it should be kept far away from things that have been proven. They will always say "well you can't disprove it" when in fact the onus on proof is on those making a claim, and factually it is disproved every time we create a new biological drug, or cure a disease.
"
No need to get worked up, my friend. None of us (including logical scientists ) were around back then. So in a sense, I'd say we all might be surprised at the real answer, should we ever be lucky enough to find or figure it out. Until then, we'll just have to meet in the middle, and shake hands. ;-)
I don't care how it's killed. I'm simply saying that the idea of people saying they need to be "killed humanely" when killing in its own right is not a humane act is kind of a contradictory idea.
There is definitely a difference between killing humanely and killing inhumanely. Animals such as baby calf are chained up in small cages for years to prevent movement thus making the veal taste more tender. Do you agree that this different than letting a chicken live 6 years on a farm and then chopping it up? I strongly advocate against animal cruelty as it's possibly one of the most selfish things I've ever heard of. Feeding animals a minimal amount of foods, such as feeding pigs a certain kind of nut that will give the steak the taste of the nut. Long and torturous methods of murdering are despicable. Nearly driving an animal to extinction for it's natural resources (such as ivory on elephants) is insane. Eating kosher, in my opinion is a better way to eat meat. Obviously we are two very different people with very different beliefs, as I'm a vegetarian and you're probably not. Inevitably, humans will eat meat regardless. It's obviously not a terrible thing to eat meat; it has been the way humans have evolved and survived millions of years. However, exploiting the animals for natural resources, supporting fast food corporations such as McDonalds which probably feed you cow anal tissue is your choice. I'm not here to tell you what not to do, I'm here to say what I think and if that possibly influences your opinions, so be it.
No need to get worked up, my friend. None of us (including logical scientists ) were around back then. So in a sense, I'd say we all might be surprised at the real answer, should we ever be lucky enough to find or figure it out. Until then, we'll just have to meet in the middle, and shake hands. ;-)"
I am not worked up. Being "around back then" to be an "eye witness" so to speak is not how science works. We already know the answer for how evolution works. As to the creation of the universe, no one has a reasonable answer as of yet. The idea that no one was around for it, are you suggesting that events do not occur unless there is an eye witness?
My original point was that the idea that someone "put the animals here for us" has already been ruled out as a possibility.
Science is not required to "meet in the middle" with religion, only the religions want that . Religion is based on worship of gods, and rules created by men based on translations and interpretations of various ancient texts. Science is based on experimentation, data collection, analysis of fact and vigorous peer review.
There is nothing to meet about, and no place for them to meet.
"human killing" is just a glossed up way of saying killing. But for food? To be honest, I don't think so, but I cannot relate the cow to the steak, despite the fact that I've helped raise cows (grandfather's place). It's just I wouldn't bring it to the slaughterhouse, but I ate the meat!
I really think we should just find alternatives. That being said, I'm an awful person.
Anyone who cares about how to "inhumanely" kill something, when its gonna die regardless for people to eat, is kinda retarded. Get over it. That's like saying if I walk u to someone that somebody cares about, if I gave them a lethal injection to kill them, it would somehow not be as bad as shoting them in the head. There is no humane take on killing to begin with, so honestly the way its done doesn't have much say in the matter. Really, get over it, /end discussion.
"inhumane death": Absolutely slaughtering an organism, painfully killing it.
"humane death": Making a death as fast as possible, with as little pain as possible.
But in reality, there is no real "Humane" aspect of killing. But we are animals, death is a natural factor that is key to the survival of others. It must exist, the way an animal disposes of the other is completely up to the predator.
As for me, I could care less. If it's good meat, it goes in ma belly.
We are humans and we naturally hunt, of course now we don't need to and we have the conciousness to let animals live, yet we still naturally seem to want to eat meat, me included. There isn't a humane way of killing something yet to show more mercy by such things as a lethal injection gives more thought to the animal than more painful methods. People should give more thought to this topic.
It is quite simple really. Killing is part of nature, death is a constant in the world. We are not the only species that kills for fun, dolphins kill for fun too, both dolphins and other species, (they also rape other dolphins, look it up if you don't believe me). Most of the people seem to think humans are "special", we are not, we are animals. We have killed animals for millenia because we needed food, shelter, or clothing (same reasons animals have killed us for centuries too). Then we got all of that stuff and some people started killing for sport and sadism. Then other people who lived in their comfortable homes with their comfortable plants and had a pet or something thought that killing stuff just for the hell of it was wrong. So these people got organized in a democratic society and passed laws so that killing animals would require licenses, permits, seasons, and be quick and painless (in food production and population control).
And now the OP raises the question of how we kill humanely? Well it was a term created by a mixture of vegetarians, animal lovers, and animal killers to arrive at a word that defines the "socially accepted" way of killing animals. The PETA and the farmers use it, so everyone who "loves" animals get off their high horses in that there is "no way to humanely kill". You only have the option of not eating animals because people and society have devised complicated and not-natural ocurring procedures and ways for you to survive without animals, the vast majority of the peopulation needs to kill animals for eating and other necessities, and you get indirect and direct benefits from that too, so don't bother us.
My personal definition of humane killing is as follows: to kill an animal (or death row person) in such a way that it is as quick and painless as possible. It exists because we created a term in our language for it and it is actually practiced in the real world.
I believe that we should not care about humane killing but rather about efficient killing to reduce energy and expenses, if they feel pain, its not my problem. I do not care about the rights of animals, the moment they start speaking and lobbying for their rights, they will get them in my book. That said I don't believe in animal mistreatment and sadism, that means that I wouldn't practice it personally but I wouldn't mind living in a society where its perfectly ok to shoot your dog if its yours and you dispose of the body.
"inhumane death": Absolutely slaughtering an organism, painfully killing it.
"humane death": Making a death as fast as possible, with as little pain as possible.
But in reality, there is no real "Humane" aspect of killing. But we are animals, death is a natural factor that is key to the survival of others. It must exist, the way an animal disposes of the other is completely up to the predator.
As for me, I could care less. If it's good meat, it goes in ma belly.
Killing is killing, if it's dead and you caused it, it's not humane. But what the hell, I'm a carnivore and I like the fact that thousands, if not millions of animals are killed to end up on my plate or other people's plates.
"Killing another human = not humane Killing an animal of a lesser race = depends"
That's where I differ, I don't think any animal is "lesser"."
The mere fact that you can cognitively come to the conclusion that eating an animal is wrong places you above them. If you don't value your self-awareness and intelligence, then I guess I can see how you don't consider them lesser.
As for the question at hand, if I were raised in a factory, fed the same thing every day, awaiting my inevitable and early death, whenever they killed me would be humane. Either that, or it's humane when it is as quick and painless as possible.
This is going to sound simple minded and stupid: I don't believe insects and really stupid animals feel anything. They're acting on instinct. I don't care about bees, wasps, or rabbits at all.
That being said I treat intelligent and feeling animals respectfully. I don't eat pork, I feel pigs are too smart. Pigs have around the same intelligence as dogs, and I would not eat a dog, right?
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