I Hope Bernie Sanders Wins the Democratic Nomination

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redcream

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I should preface this by saying that I’m not an American citizen but I have been following US Politics closely as it is more robust than the politics of my country.

From the outside looking in, it’s apparent to me that the US media and the DNC is hell-bent on going against the Sanders campaign. I will provide some examples.

A cursory look at r/bernieblindness will provide plenty of examples on how the media manipulates their presentation and headlines to exclude Bernie or put him in a bad light. The DNC changed the rules for Bloomberg to be on the debate stage effectively buying his way to a nomination. The Iowa caucus, for example, is riddled with controversy as the app used for voting is bankrolled by another candidate and now the curious timing of Bernie being branded as a Russian asset just as his campaign is starting to ramp up in Nevada. I think that this would be used to justify the DNC’s use of superdelegates to choose another candidate if Bernie does not get a plurality of votes. More sinister things have happened.

When I look at the comments on Twitter, I can see all kinds of attacks, smearing him for not being a Democrat, or being a sexist (even though he has been fighting for the rights of women and LGBT all his life), or being a hypocrite for having three houses, or getting on private jets to campaign, or having a passionate following online, or running as a socialist even though he only wants to address the growing inequality of income between the rich and the poor, or being a Russian asset even though he has served in the government for all his life, I say to myself “Jesus Christ, this man just wants to help the average American have health care and a living wage and he’s getting smeared left and right. God I hope Twitter isn’t real life and I hope undecided voters are smart enough to not be convinced by these facile arguments.”

And yes, he isn’t a Democrat in how it is defined nowadays, but he sure ain’t a Republican either so where will he go? In a two-party system like the US, how can someone get nominated without falling in line with the DNC (a private organization prone to corruption, I might add). That argument is totally disingenuous it’s insane. It’s crazy to me that someone with integrity and honesty is struggling to be elected in a free country.

I can talk about this all day but this will have to do for now. I don’t know man. I got fed up with all the BS he gets from all over the place I just need to let out some steam. This man is selfless as one person can be. All I can see is his concern for his fellow Americans and it’s sad to see that he is facing an unfair fight and keeps fighting it with grace and resilience. But who knows? Maybe all this negative press will help him as much as it helped Trump. I know that the road to hell is paved with good intentions but at least let the man try to get you out of one. (I just put that there for emphasis. The US can be considered heaven in many respects compared to where I live so I have no high ground to call it hell).

TL;DR Bernie Sanders is great, he should be the Democratic nominee and the next president of the USA and I’m angered by the smears and underhanded schemes to bring him down both by the media and the elites of the Democratic party.

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Sombre

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Just pray you don't get a Boris...well, another one

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Efesell

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I don't have a lot of confidence in this going well but, hey big same.

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Paliv

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I don't believe Bernie Sanders can garner the votes to win. Few moderates will vote for him. The American left is ignoring the every day joe outside of the urban youth. Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of his ideas and would vote for him, but he is an ideologue (not a politician, which is a good thing for his character but not for getting elected) and I don't see him beating the orange haze that's in there now. It honestly feels a bit hopeless if you are not a Republican in America.

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clush

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As a European my perspective on this is a little bit warped, but all I can say it's a good thing Americans are waking up to the fact 'socialism' isn't necessarily a dirty word and unbridled capitalism has some serious downsides. Regardless of whether Sanders wins this time around, his ideas have been gaining traction and simply the idea that there are other valid ways to handle things rather than trickle down economics is a big win going forward.

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chaser324

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#6 chaser324  Moderator

I hope he wins, too. Seems like he's doing well today in Nevada, and I'll certainly be voting for him in the primary here in SC next weekend.

If the Democratic establishment manages to push Sanders out in spite of his massive support, I may lose any remaining shred of hope I have in democracy.

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Shindig

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Whilst I'm not massive worried by Trump's tenure, it would be really nice for politics to calm down for a touch. I really hate the rhetoric Trump spouts and, whilst it's full of confidence, it doesn't half require some erm .... clean up in the aftermath.

The Democrats really need to rally behind someone and show some unity. It's one of the things I don't like about the US process. Unless there's a clear front runner, they tear each other to shreds before they even get the nomination. Plus Trump's legitimately good on the campaign trail.

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TheRealTurk

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@paliv said:

I don't believe Bernie Sanders can garner the votes to win. Few moderates will vote for him. The American left is ignoring the every day joe outside of the urban youth. Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of his ideas and would vote for him, but he is an ideologue (not a politician, which is a good thing for his character but not for getting elected) and I don't see him beating the orange haze that's in there now. It honestly feels a bit hopeless if you are not a Republican in America.

@clush said:

As a European my perspective on this is a little bit warped, but all I can say it's a good thing Americans are waking up to the fact 'socialism' isn't necessarily a dirty word and unbridled capitalism has some serious downsides. Regardless of whether Sanders wins this time around, his ideas have been gaining traction and simply the idea that there are other valid ways to handle things rather than trickle down economics is a big win going forward.

The problem with socialism in the United States isn't that it has bad ideas. The problem with it is that every time it comes up, it almost inevitably comes together with a finger-wagging holier-than-thou lecture about how much more enlightened it is than capitalism.

Not surprisingly, this doesn't play well in blue-collar and rural areas of the country. They already think people from the coasts look down on them and treat them like dog shit, so the last thing they want is some millennial from the city telling them how backwards they are for not embracing The Revolution.

And speaking personally, I really don't like Bernie. He's loud for the sake of being loud, doesn't seem to actually have any specifics to his policies, and takes absolutely no responsibly to curtail the worst of his online supporters. To me, he's fundamentally the same as Trump, just from the left-wing rather than the right. And as someone who would rather have no version of Trump in office, I find Bernie's success more than a little dismaying

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Rebel_Scum

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#9 Rebel_Scum  Online

Disclaimer: non American here.

If not him, Mayor Pete. Both probably wont beat Trump though. At there’s some decent tv/news for another 4 years.

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ghost_cat

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I just want this nightmare to be over, along with films and television telling stories of this similar nightmare.

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Milkman

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Don't worry, he will.

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Paliv

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@therealturk: Totally agree. As someone who considers themself liberal, but grew up in a conservative family, the liberal holier than thou approach is borderline intolerable. I find militant liberals are just as bad as militant conservatives.

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BladeOfCreation

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Four years ago, for deeply personal reasons, I made the decision to not actively cast a vote for president. I did vote on several other ballot measures. I did not live in a swing state.

This time, I do feel that the stakes are higher (at home; the stakes abroad hardly seem different) and I while I have spent most of my adult life refusing to be a member of a party, "blue no matter who" seems like it will be the order of the day in November, because this country is in crisis.

For me, it's a toss-up between Warren and Sanders, with every other Democratic candidate being a distant second.

As the handling of the caucuses and the progressive candidates' treatment by slightly left-of-center media has shown, the Democratic establishment continues to be the second most enthusiastic capitalist party in history. Maybe after November, leftists will finally realize that they shouldn't have heroes.

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Efesell

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Disclaimer: non American here.

If not him, Mayor Pete. Both probably wont beat Trump though. At there’s some decent tv/news for another 4 years.

Pete is the fundamental "Ugh. I guess" option.

So long as it's not fuckin' Bloomberg.

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Paliv

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@chaser324: I think the democrats know they need someone to win moderates. They are playing the political game rather than being idealistic. Polling shows that a socialist agenda isn’t likely electable. They know that putting a candidate forward that can’t beat Trump isn’t worthwhile. And I will vote for Sanders if he gets nominated, but judging by the debates he thinks he’s going to win purely by being a socialist. I have slim hope...but honestly feel like it’s a lost cause. The Dems screwed up and fractured just like the Reps. And, by the way I work for the Feds, and it truly has gotten worse under Trump in our day to day life.

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Efesell

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#16  Edited By Efesell

I'm so tired of hearing about electability.

Sanders does well in polls, caucuses, and any other visible metric of support and yet I'm constantly trying to be convinced that he couldn't possibly be elected.

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Milkman

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#17  Edited By Milkman

@paliv said:

@chaser324: I think the democrats know they need someone to win moderates. They are playing the political game rather than being idealistic. Polling shows that a socialist agenda isn’t likely electable. They know that putting a candidate forward that can’t beat Trump isn’t worthwhile. And I will vote for Sanders if he gets nominated, but judging by the debates he thinks he’s going to win purely by being a socialist. I have slim hope...but honestly feel like it’s a lost cause. The Dems screwed up and fractured just like the Reps. And, by the way I work for the Feds, and it truly has gotten worse under Trump in our day to day life.

Moderates who hate Trump are going to vote for whoever is running against him. Bernie Sanders is the most popular candidate among all democrats.Bernie Sanders is the most popular candidate among independents. The fact that this kind analysis also ignores is that there's about half of the country that doesn't vote at all. That think every politician is the same and none of them will ever have any effect on their lives. Guess whose campaign is speaking to those people?

I don't know where these narratives come from that Bernie can't win come from but they're proven less true every single day.

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Subterfudge

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Can't I just bet that all the candidates will have a fun time?

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Paliv

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@milkman: Participation in primaries is even lower than general election. The politically informed and involved are the participants. I don’t think Bernie’s current success is a barometer for anything but how many dems are for socialist ideas, count me as one. But people thought Hillary would be an easy win, and we see where that got us. I wish him the best. And I’m not party to windfalls from big corps or ultra rich so I hope to reap the benefits of positive change for the common folk. And maybe everyone is right about electability, I mean 5 years ago Donald Trump was a joke candidate. In America any clown can win.

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Onemanarmyy

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#20  Edited By Onemanarmyy

I will say that bending the rules to drag Bloomberg to these debates is a good thing in my eyes. Money & media is very powerful,and he's putting an ungodly amount towards this effort. Sadly, that's enough for him to be a very legitimate contender. Now anyone can look good through ads , campaign movies, bots and memes (ugh) if there's enough money allocated to them. But standing in front of crowds, and having to sell them a story that's inspirational and charismatic enough for these people to cast their votes for you, is a skill on it's own. Having to debate live with politicians that have sharpened their blades and coming out looking good; Money can't do that! Bloomberg has no charisma. He came across as a wet blanket on stage. Him having to show up to debates is where he is weakest. I think that's a better approach than this guy not having to speak a word until the superdelegates come into play. There's a reason Warren wanted him to be a part of the debates and then ended up being the person that skewered him there. It gets her points and it hurts Bloomberg to step away from his money into the spotlight.

But yeah, i hope Bernie finds enough support. It's very hard for me to gauge whether the US contains enough anyone-but-trump people for him to beat Trump, or if the crowd that doesn't vote at all is large enough to be energized to vote. Electibility is also such a hard thing to predict. If an undecided voter is still willing to vote for Trump in 2020, would that person be more willing to vote for a gay guy or a woman to lead the country than a straight old man? How many people will you lose on the left if you run a more right wing democrat in the hunt for this undecided voter? It's not as easy as just picking the person that's most central on the political spectrum to acquire some voters left & right.

Hopefully these elections still matter, when the election process is as compromised at it is and republicans have all decided to stand in unity behind Trump no matter what. It will still be very interesting to see which person or group is able to make Trump step out of the white house after the inescapable claims of the election being rigged.

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berfunkle

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#21  Edited By berfunkle

I read in the New York Times and other sources that Russian hackers possibly state sponsored are trying to get Sanders nominated. I suspect they think that with a Sanders nomination, Trump will beat him easily. I'm not sure if that's true or not, but someone surely does.

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chaser324

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#22 chaser324  Moderator

@berfunkle: I'll be honest, that sounds like total bullshit that was invented to try to discourage people from voting for Sanders.

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Paliv

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@chaser324: Totally agree. I actually think that might have the opposite effect of the intent implied in that post. If it were real, however that’s doubtful.

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Efesell

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@berfunkle: I'll be honest, that sounds like total bullshit that was invented to try to discourage people from voting for Sanders.

I figure it's plausible enough, just with the general intent of meddling and causing general chaos in an already chaotic process. Less actual intent to favor Bernie sanders for whatever reason and just to throw a spanner in the works.

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Onemanarmyy

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#25  Edited By Onemanarmyy

@berfunkle:

Both Trump & Bernie were told that Russia is supporting them earlier this week. Trump got angry that the House committee was briefed on it and replaced the acting Director of National Intelligence. Bernie stated that Putin is a crook and he would try to keep Putin from meddling if he could . We already knew that Russia has supported Trump & Sanders before, from the indictment against the Internet Research Agency troll farm in 2018. (By February 2016, the suspects had decided whom they were supporting in the race, according to the indictment, which quoted an instruction to Internet Research Agency specialists to “use any opportunity to criticize Hillary and the rest (except Sanders and Trump — we support them.)”)

And even with this knowledge, it's still hard to figure out IF they truly would like Sanders to be president, or if it's mostly to sow chaos and let detractors make the easy Commie - Russian Friend connection to hurt his chances. Angry Berniebros on the internet is already a frequent talkingpoint after all, eventhough we know that russian bots are in the mix. It's very cheap & worthwhile for Russia to continue meddling and mixing themselves into all these political groups. Perhaps they just think Bernie would be quite an easy opponent for Trump, or they like how the DNC is not into Sanders at all. Or they think a president Sanders would divide the country even more. Who knows? It doesn't matter all that much, as long as we understand that Russia is involved in this election cycle too and we should think critically about the events that take place online. A group of supporters being shitty online? Probably shouldn't impact your voting behavior. The candidates responding in a bad way to the actions of their supporters? Much more worthwhile to think about.

To know Russia's aim, we just have follow their usual playbook as outlined in Aleksandr Dugin's book : Foundations of Geopolitics.

Russia should "introduce geopolitical disorder into internal American activity, encouraging all kinds of separatism and ethnic, social and racial conflicts, actively supporting all dissident movements – extremist, racist, and sectarian groups, thus destabilizing internal political processes in the U.S. It would also make sense simultaneously to support isolationist tendencies in American politics".

They like to be involved and target a bunch of different kind of voters and get them riled up. Signal boost the more extreme members of the groups. Tear America apart by fanning the flames between groups, making every issue an us vs them situation instead of being able to come together to solve problems. Remember when the Internet Research Agency troll farm was spending big money on blue lives matter ads and black lives matter ads? It's not about supporting the group that Russia agrees with, it's Russia taking advantage of the wide differences in american society and watching them fight eachother. They also organized a bunch of political rallies across the poltical spectrum in the USA from 2015 onwards, through social media. Once the events gained traction, the organizers made themselves seem like very busy people that couldn't attend all their own events, which meant that they needed actual americans to coordinate those events themselves. Suddenly you have a lot of 'grassroot protests' organized by Russia.

There's a lot of IRA stuff in the Mueller report if you're interested. There's also this archive of IRA ads that the house published.But yeah, this is still the same ol' russian strategy. Eventhough they don't support Hillary or Stein, they would still push ads & facebook pages for them just to get their tendrils in those groups. Ads like:

“Choose peace and vote for Jill Stein,” “Trust me. It’s not a wasted vote. … The only way to take our country back is to stop voting for the corporations and banks that own us. #GrowaSpineVoteJillStein.

"Support Hillary. Save American Muslims!"

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thegame983

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The only people meddling in elections is the DNC

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cikame

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Are there any just like... normal, ordinary, boring people to vote for?
Everyone seems like a cartoon character.

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Sweep

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#28 Sweep  Moderator

I think he'd be a good change for America, a country which has needed a hard reset for a while. Unfortunately I'm so deep into the darkest timeline that I'd also be completely unsurprised if the nomination was given to Biden or Bloomberg by scared centrist superdelegates, and they then went on to lose to the republicans again, disappointing pretty much everyone.

"Hope for the best, prepare for the worst"

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devise22

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@sweep: No doubt. Even as a foreigner it's impossible not to see how deep into that dark timeline America has slipped, and still people treat Bernies ideas as "socialist" simply because they come from that ideologue or school of thinking.

America is so fucking far right, SO far, that it's not even a democracy anymore people. It's an oligarchy through and through. A few far left leaning ideas or policies aren't going to suddenly transform a country from the far right of that needle to communist Russia. No further proof is needed to prove how false this fear tactic is than seeing people inflate and equate Universal Health Care to that of pure socialism. Tons of financially well off countries around the world, countries that exist perfectly fine within a capitalist system (or as fine as can be expected) with Universal Health Care. Countries and societies far closer to center than America is to the right have employed it without it turning their countries to the full on "socialist paradise" that these far right people think will happen.

At a certain point people need to recognize that the needle is so far right that you either need to pull it back a bit. Or wait for this dark timeline to reach it's only natural conclusion. And if you think that conclusion means anything "good" for America then your delusional. Pitchforks are real people, massive poverty, political divide and inequality lead to civil wars, death, destruction of ways of life. Nothing good. Read a history book and you'll see that this shit doesn't work. You can't create a society where a higher percentage of people suffer/are unhappy while a lower percentage control the majority of wealth and power. It has never and will never work, regardless of if it's foundations are built on solid, sound, reasonable ideas.

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cmblasko

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Yeah me too, and he will win, and all the naysayers will just have to deal with life being better.

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randombullseye

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I'm curious if anyone here likes Trump at all?

Not wearing a MAGA hat posing for photos going to rallies, but just likes the guy and finds humor in the absurd things he says. And not laughing at him, laughing with him.

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Efesell

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@randombullseye: Its hard for me to understand how anyone likes him, honestly. Even in an impossible scenario of removing his politics he just seems like a miserable person.

I could laugh at his antics if he were not in a position of power. But laughing at his antics is part of the reason we’re in this sad state.

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Shiftygism

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#33 Shiftygism  Online

I soured on the guy after he fired Bill Goldberg over some bullshit on Celebrity Apprentice, and I'm not even a Goldberg fan! But yeah, I won't be surprised if he's re-elected.

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north6

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#34  Edited By north6

Obviously he will win the nom, the "centrist" candidates divide their votes, and won't drop out until it's too late. When Warren drops out it will be a bloodbath. Sanders will win exactly like Trump won the nom in 2016.

That said, far from being harsh on Bernie, rather the media mostly ignores Sanders. It's only recently they started even surfacing any of the 70's/80's communist support / soviet honeymoon, bread lines aren't so bad etc stuff that could have easily been brought up ages ago, at any time during his campaign. It's amazing it took halfway through the campaign for Cooper to even ask him a question on Castro last night which is uh, not gonna be popular in florida. He'll walk away with the nom easily, but unfortunately for the rest of America, we'll have 4 more years of Trump. If the economy suffers, Sanders has a chance, otherwise Trump just has to point at the economy and wave the spectre of socialism at middle america, their 401ks will vote for them.

That said - interesting to watch the stock market - it may tank in anticipation of Sanders nom, so this also helps Sanders.

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Master_Live_013

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#35  Edited By Master_Live_013

If he does then I hope Republicans retain the Senate to keep him in check. Then hopefully could concentrate on foreign policy and perhaps end US involvement in the Middle East.

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SethMode

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@north6: Genuinely curious why you put centrist in sneer quotes?

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north6

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#37  Edited By north6

@sethmode: In American politics, they are centrists only in comparison to Bernie and Warren. Any other year, their platforms are incredibly progressive, but its easier to group them this way.

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_Brojangles_

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Gabbard is the only candidate left I would feel good voting for, but she’s been disowned and smeared to hell at this point so her chances are zero at this point.

Bernie is the other candidate left at this point though that doesn’t disgust me and has an actual chance at being the nominee.

I would consider voting for him in the primary, especially if he picks a good VP.

I will not “vote blue no matter who” though. Falling in line behind the establishment groomed candidate just leads to status quo and is the reason why neoliberal war-hawk corporatists run the Democratic Party and not the Bernie Sanders types.

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SethMode

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@north6: Alright, I understand now. I would still say you can't just move the meter to account for them with phrases like "In American politics" just because the American political center leans right (at least).

Anyway, thanks for the clarification!

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notnert427

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#40  Edited By notnert427

A great deal of non-Americans hailing from non-capitalist countries absolutely despise capitalism and believe America should embrace any and all socialist ideals as they do. Therefore, they are rooting for the most socialist candidate, and that's fine. I get that perspective. I don't even necessarily reject it, but there has to be some consideration given as to the practicality of (potentially) altering the very framework of the entire country.

America as of right now is a capitalist country. It has been for centuries, for both better and worse. Many of the systems in place are entwined in capitalism, healthcare among them. I'm not about to defend our healthcare system and pretend it's excellent (or even anywhere close), but it represents roughly 20% of the economy on a "for-profit" model. Again, I get why people hate that, but that's what it is presently. Sanders' platform is largely "free healthcare". Sounds awesome. I, too, would ideally like people to get needed medical treatment easily.

Let's talk how to do that. Oh, the government is going to run the whole thing? Our government? Hmm... The two government-run facets of U.S. healthcare, Medicare and Medicaid, are absolute disasters for both the patient and provider. ACA's success as even a half-measure is debatable. The track record is poor, so the idea of ceding complete control to the federal government and risking 1/5 of the economy on it is unsettling at best. There are already huge issues with state vs. federal governance that the ACA encountered, and many of the single-payer systems people cite as examples of what America should do are not nationalized as Sanders wishes to do for this very reason.

Moreover, anyone who understands even the most basic economics knows that nothing is actually "free". Funding M4A itself is questionable enough, but the Sanders "freebies" don't stop there. College is free. Medical and student loan debt is freed. Housing is free. Childcare is free. A Green New Deal of 16.3 trillion is free. Elderly/long-term care is free. Social Security (which even Bernie admits is only viable for 16 more years) should be expanded so retirement is free. Bernie, that's a lot of items that need to be funded somehow to be "free". Please explain how these costs will be even remotely offset.

You're going to sue oil companies? Um, first of all, the mere act of suing someone doesn't translate into immediate cash in hand (if ever); it actually costs money. Assuming eventual victory and resulting profit here is ridiculously presumptuous, and spending the funds from it before it exists is downright foolish. This is some Uncut Gems shit of trying to leverage money you don't have on uncertain outcomes. Please tell me you've got better ideas than this.

Taxing the wealthy? Many of the ever-hated "rich" already exploit tax loopholes and obfuscate their wealth, so going after even more of their pocketbook will only serve to make this more of an issue. The IRS has neither the manpower nor skill to audit "the wealthy" individually and successfully. They're going to show up at the door of mansions expecting a payday, only to find out that Scrooge McRich is a citizen of the Cayman Islands now.

Taxing wall street speculation? Wall Street will respond by simply trading less and/or passing the tax down the line to Joe's investment fees. That shit is coming straight out of 401ks. Assuming the people most skilled at questionably moving money around wouldn't do it here and would happily eat a chunk of money to pay Bernie would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad. I can't think Bernie is actually this dumb and is just flashing the shiny object of "evil wall street", knowing full well who foots this bill.

Cutting military spending? Okay, I can get on board with trimming some government spending....wait, what about the inevitably huge added costs of the government expanding to run healthcare, to sue multiple behemoth oil companies simultaneously, to successfully outwit the rich/wall street, to run the green new deal, to run an expanded Social Security program, etc., etc. Maybe disbanding the military entirely could offset the new spending. Planes and tanks, reduced for quick sale.

Seriously, the above is what's being counted on for funding? None of it reliably produces funding at all. Bernie is making a pile of promises that add up to a truly staggering figure in the red. It should greatly concern anyone, even non-Americans, because the American economy taking a nosedive would have significant global implications. Again, I'm well-aware that there are plenty who would enjoy seeing capitalist America go down in flames....that is, until that actually happened.

Bernie is an idealist, and his supporters are thus inherently idealists. Yes, free everything sounds awesome. In reality, it's insanely untenable. Brute-forcing socialism on a country with entrenched capitalism (which also happens to be a world power) is a terrible idea. People are free to believe that socialism is a superior system and espouse it as such if they want, but whether it is or isn't remains completely irrelevant as to how actually implementing socialism hastily en masse in America via Bernie's nebulously-funded programs would "work".

Bernie isn't some victim; he's just a guy who makes pie-in-the-sky promises with either a fundamental ignorance of grade-school economics or an extreme willingness to misrepresent the practical costs of his idealism. I believe he's the latter. Bernie wants to torpedo the structure of the country and force unsustainability atop the rubble. He thinks only in terms of "should", not in terms of how to actually attain what he thinks should be. It's some underpants gnomes nonsense of skipping the whole part where you get from phase 1 to phase 3.

Sanders is a phase 3 "idea" guy. He's the guy you want around to talk passionately about stretch goals, who might inspire the workers to improve their processes. He's not the guy you want running the company because you know he'd bankrupt the place chasing some wild hare without any semblance of a plan. Except Bernie has a dozen wild hares, and he wants to be put in charge of arguably the most important job in the world. Hard pass.

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Drachmalius

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I hope so too, and will be casting a vote for him next Tuesday to help ensure that he wins the nomination.

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Panfoot

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I know it's unlikely but I'm still pulling for Warren. I would be happy with Bernie though, I find Biden/Buttigieg/Klobuchar to moderate and I don't think can pull out a win against Trump, and even if they I think they would prove ineffective in office in dealing with Mcconnell and his ilk. Bloomberg is just another version of Trump which is the last thing we need, I constantly forget Steyer even exists, and Gabbard is a laughing stock who should really just drop the charade and change parties already.

I think at this point it almost might be more important take back the senate rather than the presidency. Mitch Mcconnell and is his flock are far more competent at ruining the country than Trump is.

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north6

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#43  Edited By north6

Gabbard or Klobuchar would both stomp Trump. Gabbard would go a long way towards bringing the moderates that Bernie is doing his best to alienate as well, my guess is she'll be his VP. She got behind him early in 2016 too, I've always respected her since she quit the DNC back in 2016 after that kneecap job they did on Bernie. Watching Hillary lose her shit over her is pretty good too I guess.

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Efesell

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Man get Gabbard all the way outta there, it'll be a real sour note if she ends up the VP pick somehow.

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chaser324

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#45  Edited By chaser324  Moderator

@notnert427: I don't think anyone is disillusioned about the fact that it will be extremely difficult to change our society and economy which are deeply entrenched in capitalism, but it's something that an increasing number of people feel that we need to do. Bernie is the only candidate that seems interested in taking on that challenge, and if he wants to swing for the fences rather than just chip away, I'm all for it. We need change.

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_Brojangles_

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#46  Edited By _Brojangles_

@efesell: ...Why? Gabbard is one of the most left leaning candidates still running. She’s just ever so slightly to the right of Bernie, stepped down from her position at the DNC in 2016 to endorse him when just about everyone including Bernie himself was falling in line to back that loser Clinton.

She has the best foreign policy of anyone else running, and that alone has given her wide appeal across both sides of political spectrum which is what you want, especially when campaigning against an in-office president’s second term, as historically, more often then not, presidents typically retain control of the White House. And that’s to say nothing of her anti-establishment approach that Bernie has also been running.

Why do you think she would be a bad Vice President for Bernie?

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chaser324

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#47  Edited By chaser324  Moderator

@_brojangles_: I think a lot of the concern about Gabbard comes from her historically conservative positions (anti-LGBTQ, anti-Islam, pro-drone strikes) and being a bit too friendly with some very far-right leaning people.

Some of those positions have moved left and her economic policies do approach being as far left as Bernie in some areas, but I think those previously exposed opinions are cause for serious doubts about her convictions and positions.

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SethMode

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@chaser324: 100% agree regarding swinging for the fences instead of chipping away. We've literally seen the results of chipping away at things over the last several decades. Incremental changes barely pass, if at all, and are subsequently destroyed by the next administration and things continue to get overall worse. It seems absurdly defeatist to basically say "welp, America is what it is", especially considering within the last century we had a wide scale policy shift after the Great Depression. Nothing about it is impossible.

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_Brojangles_

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#49  Edited By _Brojangles_

@chaser324: I’m pretty sure most of, if not all those positions were made by her in the 90 or early 2000s when she was in her 20s. I don’t think that’s a fair thing to hold against her considering her support for LGBTQ is really good now. Warren was a republican until she was 47, and I don’t see nearly as much backlash to her as a lot of the vitriol Gabbard gets.

As for talking to right wingers, I don’t really see a problem with that as long as she isn’t celebrating or agreeing with their views, and when you’re polling at 5% or lower you can’t really afford to be picky with which news stations you use to build awareness and get your message out.

I am admittedly pretty big on open discussion and debate though, so I understand why this is a turn off for a lot of people as disappointing as it is (to me.)

I appreciate the response though, I’m very tired of the standard “sHe’S a RePuBlIcAn” schlock, Twitter dummies throw at me anytime she gets brought up. Which once again, has me questioning why the hell I haven’t deleted my Twitter account yet.

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north6

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#50  Edited By north6

Her gross anti lgbtq stuff was due to her father's position and up until she deployed to iraq in mid 2000's, serving changed her mind.