I Hope Bernie Sanders Wins the Democratic Nomination

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Efesell

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@_brojangles_: In addition to that above there's also that whole business with Assad.

I dunno, just a whole lot about her I'm uneasy on and would rather she just not be in this picture.

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AzureGale

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#52  Edited By AzureGale

At the moment personally, my primary support is with Warren. She's got the tax the rich, give to the lower class stance, but also laid out plans on her goals, how she'll do them and where she'll get the resources to do them. I think she's very prepared on what she wants to do as President and how she'll carry them out.

That being said, if Sanders becomes the Democratic Presidential candidate I will vote for him without a second thought. He's got the same sentiments and laid out on what he wants to see happen, and I'm confident there'll be no shortage of people who will help him see his goals through.

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Onemanarmyy

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#53  Edited By Onemanarmyy

For what it's worth, here in europe we all live in capitalist systems too. My country has been governed by center-right parties for the last 18 years. But even the scandinavian countries that often get looked at, have competitive free markets with flexible labour and a high degree of private ownership. We just have a larger safety net which gives more people the ability to participate in society. The discussion is not whether we should implement SOCIALISM or CAPITALISM or give COMMUNISM a shot. It's pretty well understood that we benefit the most from picking & choosing, and the parties all have their own ideas on where those boundaries should be.

So no, Bernie is not going to steer the big America ship around and abolish CAPITALISM. But what he can do is add social programs where they're necessary. Prevent people from getting unlucky and ending up with a ruined life that only adds to the costs. Making it possible for a wider group of people to participate in society and contribute. Is he able to implement all the things he fights for? Of course not, look at the state of US politics right now. USA turning the dial too far towards socialism is not a valid concern. There will be plenty of folk out there ready to block or negotiate the harder edges off of his plans. Not even his own party would unilatery support him in all his ideas.

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notnert427

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@notnert427: I don't think anyone is disillusioned about the fact that it will be extremely difficult to change our society and economy which are deeply entrenched in capitalism, but it's something that an increasing number of people feel that we need to do. Bernie is the only candidate that seems interested in taking on that challenge, and if he wants to swing for the fences rather than just chip away, I'm all for it. We need change.

FWIW, I'm not against making changes, either. Healthcare especially needs attention. There just needs to be a plan with attainable goals that takes into consideration how to transition from existing systems, rather a bunch of empty "free (insert good/service)" promises. I honestly respect Bernie's passion about what he wants (I want some of the same things), but he doesn't have the first clue as to how to get there. This isn't a "shoot for the stars and if you miss, you'll land on the moon" sort of thing; it's putting a major economy that's key to global stability at serious risk. It can't be some experiment borne simply of dreams of the world as gumdrop rainbow land. It's not like we get to hit the reset button and say "oh well, at least we tried" if/when a bunch of unsustainable programs predictably faceplant and truly tank the economy. The only thing worse than systems that don't help enough people is promising them help via a litany of half-baked systems, forcing them upon everyone, and having this house of cards topple at everyone's expense, figuratively and literally.

@sethmode said:

@chaser324: 100% agree regarding swinging for the fences instead of chipping away. We've literally seen the results of chipping away at things over the last several decades. Incremental changes barely pass, if at all, and are subsequently destroyed by the next administration and things continue to get overall worse. It seems absurdly defeatist to basically say "welp, America is what it is", especially considering within the last century we had a wide scale policy shift after the Great Depression. Nothing about it is impossible.

I'd place the ACA as a measure that, while hard to argue as a success in and of itself, brought universal health care closer to being a reality. Yes, it encountered resistance from some states, and Trump has tried to do what he can to repeal it, but it illuminated what roadblocks there are and what needs to be done better with future plans. The ACA tried to compete on an open market and largely didn't succeed in providing a superior product to alternatives, among issues with even allowing people to enroll. It should be used to inform future plans, as there's valuable info to be gleaned in knowing what needs to be done better, knowing who did/did not support it, knowing who it did/did not help, etc. Expanding Medicare ignores the lessons of ACA and will only serve to exacerbate Medicare's existing shortcomings.

It is interesting that you bring up the Great Depression and the resulting policy shift. First off, we're not in a depression, so the sweeping policy changes that "worked" then are N/A here (and date back nearly a century to where they're of questionable practicality today anyway). Also of note, the very first thing FDR's New Deal did was cut salaries of the federal government. I'd love for Bernie to propose this, because it would not only be something that could actually help fund what he wants to do, but it would be truly comical to see him attempt to sell the establishment on that one. I think we can all agree that's out. FWIW, I'll concede that the first New Deal had its merits and was largely successful in bringing us out of the Great Depression. If/when the economy crashes, I will be willing to consider implementing similar strategies at that time, but I'm half-convinced that Bern and his ilk actually want to crash the economy so they can have their opportunity to play FDR. I digress.

The second New Deal, however, caused issues both immediately and long-term. It featured several ill-conceived oversteps of creating questionably-funded programs and empowering unions (similar to much of what Bernie is proposing), and it sent the economy into a recession almost instantly, which we didn't recover from until the wartime economy. We're presently dealing with the elephant in the room of Social Security, of which my generation has paid a small fortune into and is likely never to benefit from. Bernie wants to actually double-down on this program that has literally proven itself to be unsustainable to delay the inevitable. As much as I'd love to not get left high and dry by Social Security, I'm preparing for that eventuality and I don't consider passing it down the line to screw over another generation to be a "solution". Social Security is the poster child for why massive government programs need to be solvent in ways Bernie's proposals do not appear to be.

For what it's worth, here in europe we all live in capitalist systems too. My country has been governed by center-right parties for the last 18 years. But even the scandinavian countries that often get looked at, have competitive free markets with flexible labour and a high degree of private ownership. We just have a larger safety net which gives more people the ability to participate in society. The discussion is not whether we should implement SOCIALISM or CAPITALISM or give COMMUNISM a shot. It's pretty well understood that we benefit the most from picking & choosing, and the parties all have their own ideas on where those boundaries should be.

So no, Bernie is not going to steer the big America ship around and abolish CAPITALISM. But what he can do is add social programs where they're necessary. Prevent people from getting unlucky and ending up with a ruined life that only adds to the costs. Making it possible for a wider group of people to participate in society and contribute. Is he able to implement all the things he fights for? Of course not, look at the state of US politics right now. USA turning the dial too far towards socialism is not a valid concern. There will be plenty of folk out there ready to block or negotiate the harder edges off of his plans. Not even his own party would unilatery support him in all his ideas.

I don't want to have to count on Bernie being ineffectual or being stymied by others in the government, and yes, trying to force a capitalist country to become a socialist country rapidly as Bernie desires is concerning. Bernie is advocating for immediate radical changes virtually across the board, and that's inherently problematic. There are a few social programs I believe we should improve and/or employ, but "free ____ !" isn't a program; it's merely an advertisement, and one that should raise eyebrows about what the catch is and how it actually works. Bernie actively tries to gloss over that part, and that's why he's a fairly terrifying candidate. A citizen in the debates made an apt comparison of Bernie's nonexistent plans to Trump's dumbass "wall" that he claimed Mexico was going to pay for. Bernie didn't have an answer because Bernie doesn't have answers. He's just a guy who pontificates about the way things should be. It seems that the vast majority of Bernie's support is based not on what people actually think he can or will do, but on his extremely broad, idealized, obviously-would-be-nice concepts that people just want to say they support to feel good about themselves.

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MonkeyKing1969

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Yes, please let Bernie win the Primary. If not, PLEASE make it anyone but Bloomberg and Biden...anyone. I woudl accept Pauly Shore as the nomination, bud.

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DocHaus

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Bernie is going to win. If they fuck him over again, I'm voting Howie Hawkins. Either way, I'll be grabbing a stiff drink afterward.

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BallsLeon

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Bernie or Warren, but seeing how primaries are going Bernie.

Everyone else is Republican-lite to Republican-double strength.

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pweidman

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I also hope Bernie wins the nomination, and by all indications it appears he will. I believe he's the right person to take on so much daunting change our country needs desperately.

Medicare for All is obviously the most complex and controversial, and I think it's obvious it will be a drawn out process to fully put it in place and make it efficient, with many compromises to be made along the way(allowing people to continue with their current provider for instance will most assuredly be necessary imo). Bernie has a plan to finance this plan too. You can see all his plans and explanations on funding at berniesanders.com. The link below will take you to the "How Does Bernie Pay..."page and it has several independent research sources in the Medicare for All section to check also. So get informed if you aren't, and get out and vote this primary and in the general this fall...and encourage others to vote too if you can.

https://berniesanders.com/issues/how-does-bernie-pay-his-major-plans/

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north6

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north6

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#60  Edited By north6

@pweidman: Thanks for that link. Probably the most preposterous is the tax on stock trades to wipe out all student debt and make state schools free. .5% on every trade to the federal government is going to make a profound impact on the average American's retirement account, including IRAs, which are created to help the 99%, and a perpetual one at that (if you don't put whatever money you can into an IRA every year you are a setting money on fire). Additionally, if a student attending a private school still wants to take out a college loan, this is also forgiven. All of these numbers assume that schools won't increase fees across the board because everything they could possibly charge is going to be guaranteed, without a massive government apparatus behind it auditing everything.

On top of that, I disagree with the premise. We need more trade schools and apprenticeships (which I see are now included, which is good news), not all of the people who couldn't get a scholarship are cut out for college. In any case, automation won't ever replace A/C repairmen, plumbers, or electricians. When everyone has a liberal arts degree, they're meaningless, and the bar for those degrees that were sought after will only be raised. See the law school grads bussing tables all over DC.

All that said - there really does need to be some method of unsecured student loan forgiveness, as federal student loans never leave you. I don't have the answers to this, but it's not *everything is free for everyone, forever!*

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BajiBoxer

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I'd say "free for everybody forever" is a misrepresentation of Bernie Sanders' positions (and this misrepresentation sometimes comes from some in the Bernie camp as well). A lot of us would still pay something, it's just all behind the scenes as tax.

On healthcare, the math would work out for most of us though as the tax increase would be less than what we would be spending on premiums, co-pays, and additional out of pocket costs. As far as federal spending is concerned, it's tricky as it really is difficult to pin down an exact number on anything. Sanders has the most detailed Healthcare plans, and still gets studies on it that differ by $20 Trillion in estimates. And all this is trying to be communicated to a population who barely understand the most basic aspects of economics.

Same goes for education. The "free" education is very tricky itself, and debt forgiveness would basically just be a straight forward bailout. Many aspects of our higher education system (and relation to private business) are so extremely screwed up that any real solution has to be pretty extreme.

On the Conservative side, people are going to be unreasonably frightened by just the word tax. On the flip side you have people who put zero thought into cost because it is difficult to explain why the wealthiest nation in the world can't come anywhere near such successful healthcare systems that exist in Europe. I myself lean strongly towards the later description, though I do like math and recognize that there is a certain risk of failure when implementing such social changes.

A big problem with relaying any economic plan is that you need psychic powers to give a real close estimate of what things will cost. There's a lot of uncertainty, but people want the most straight forward simplification humanly possible. That gives an advantage to people that can confidently misrepresent numbers, or outright lie. It lets people prey on our fears, desires, and biases to a great extent when you aren't able to truly verify if what they say is true (which is practically all of us to varying extents).

On the overall field, I think Sanders and Warren are the only ones that have a true grasp of how precarious things are, and have a solid idea of what direction we need to go. Between those two, I'm going with Sanders because he seems to have the most consistent and clearest vision, whereas Warren has been wishy washy on certain issues that are important to me (like universal healthcare). I'll vote for the nominee against Trump (even if Bloomberg had me questioning that a bit), but I don't feel the least bit confident in any of the others to actually attempt much that changes direction on where we have been going under Trump. Some of his most egregiously awful policies and decisions are highly unlikely to be repeated, and may be reversed at least.

Oh, and since Gabbard has come up, I'll say she's never been a remote possibility to get my vote. She does say a fair number of things I agree with publicly, but she had a fair number of issues of character to the extent that I would never trust her in the least as President. This was my opinion well before she decided to run, too. It's been a long time since I've really thought about her as she's totally non viable as a candidate. Wish I could still name specifics. I really should keep a journal, lol.

Climate change/global warming is a major issue for me too, and I'm afraid we've already hit a point of no return when it comes to avoiding global catastrophe. We're probably heading to mitigation mode while hoping for a viable technological solution. The Green New Deal probably isn't extreme enough to fix things, and as the problem increases every second of every day, every plan will become continuously less effective in addressing the problem, every second it isn't fully implemented.

So, this stream of consciousness post went on a bit longer than I expected. Hopefully most of it makes sense, and I expressed my thoughts clearly enough lol.

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FrostyRyan

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I'm glad to come back and see people here have a head on their shoulders

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Junkerman

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@bajiboxer: Your post made me happy. Thank you for thinking about important issues.

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TheRealTurk

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@north6 said:

All that said - there really does need to be some method of unsecured student loan forgiveness, as federal student loans never leave you. I don't have the answers to this, but it's not *everything is free for everyone, forever!*

I'll take a stab at that one, because I think a balanced solution is relatively simple compared to a lot of the other issues.

The problem I have with Bernie's plan is that it is (a) ruinously expensive, (b) doesn't treat all borrowers equally (it's a bigger windfall if you took on more debt), and (c) let's people escape an obligation they knowingly signed onto.

And specifically on that last point, because I can already hear Bernie's sans-culottes sharpening their guillotine, let me just say that I get it. Student loans suck. And I know a thing or two about it having gone to a private Catholic law school. But even though I all but guarantee I have more debt than anyone else here, I wouldn't support just wiping it off the books. I knew what I was signing onto when I agreed to that loan, and it's only fair that I pay it back. To say otherwise would be to support the proposition that there shouldn't be any consequences to my actions - instead I should just take a problem and sit on it until the problem gets big enough that the government steps in and fixes things for me, which is a stance I cannot get behind.

Having said that, I don't think the government is treating people fairly by charging what it does for a loan. Mine are all at 6.8%, which is higher than the current prime rate and way above inflation. In other words, the government is profiting off of these loans, but really the government is already getting paid back in the form of a better educated populace. This in turn helps to reduce the number of people who need social services and theoretically increases tax revenue as people are more likely to have high paying jobs. Taking interest on top of that is essentially letting it make profit twice over.

So rather than some scheme for responsibility-free loan forgiveness, how about just . . . lowering the interest rate on the loans? If you compare someone who borrowed $31,172 (the average per capita student loan debt in the U.S.) over 10 or 20 years at various interest rates, it can have a big effect over time.

Loan Term6.8%4.75% (Prime Rate)2% (10 yr. avg. inflation)
10 Years$43,047$39,220 (-$3,827)$34,419 (-$8,628)
20 Years$57,107$48,346 (-$8,761)$37,847 (-$19,260)

If you took that loan over 20 years and the government charged only inflationary interest rather than the current rate, the borrower would save almost $20k.

This method isn't perfect, but it solves a lot of the issues I have with Bernie's plan. It will cost money, but it isn't nearly as expensive. It ties things to a percentage, so borrowers of different amounts receive proportionally the same benefit, and it also isn't providing a "get out of jail free card" - instead it's just putting people on equal footing with where they should have been had the government treated them fairly to begin with.

Anyway, that's a lot of text. It isn't the only solution, but it is a solution.

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sadsadsad

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@north6 said:

All that said - there really does need to be some method of unsecured student loan forgiveness, as federal student loans never leave you. I don't have the answers to this, but it's not *everything is free for everyone, forever!*

I'll take a stab at that one, because I think a balanced solution is relatively simple compared to a lot of the other issues.

The problem I have with Bernie's plan is that it is (a) ruinously expensive, (b) doesn't treat all borrowers equally (it's a bigger windfall if you took on more debt), and (c) let's people escape an obligation they knowingly signed onto.

And specifically on that last point, because I can already hear Bernie's sans-culottes sharpening their guillotine, let me just say that I get it. Student loans suck. And I know a thing or two about it having gone to a private Catholic law school. But even though I all but guarantee I have more debt than anyone else here, I wouldn't support just wiping it off the books. I knew what I was signing onto when I agreed to that loan, and it's only fair that I pay it back. To say otherwise would be to support the proposition that there shouldn't be any consequences to my actions - instead I should just take a problem and sit on it until the problem gets big enough that the government steps in and fixes things for me, which is a stance I cannot get behind.

Having said that, I don't think the government is treating people fairly by charging what it does for a loan. Mine are all at 6.8%, which is higher than the current prime rate and way above inflation. In other words, the government is profiting off of these loans, but really the government is already getting paid back in the form of a better educated populace. This in turn helps to reduce the number of people who need social services and theoretically increases tax revenue as people are more likely to have high paying jobs. Taking interest on top of that is essentially letting it make profit twice over.

So rather than some scheme for responsibility-free loan forgiveness, how about just . . . lowering the interest rate on the loans? If you compare someone who borrowed $31,172 (the average per capita student loan debt in the U.S.) over 10 or 20 years at various interest rates, it can have a big effect over time.

Loan Term6.8%4.75% (Prime Rate)2% (10 yr. avg. inflation)
10 Years$43,047$39,220 (-$3,827)$34,419 (-$8,628)
20 Years$57,107$48,346 (-$8,761)$37,847 (-$19,260)

If you took that loan over 20 years and the government charged only inflationary interest rather than the current rate, the borrower would save almost $20k.

This method isn't perfect, but it solves a lot of the issues I have with Bernie's plan. It will cost money, but it isn't nearly as expensive. It ties things to a percentage, so borrowers of different amounts receive proportionally the same benefit, and it also isn't providing a "get out of jail free card" - instead it's just putting people on equal footing with where they should have been had the government treated them fairly to begin with.

Anyway, that's a lot of text. It isn't the only solution, but it is a solution.

Or lower the taxes for the middle class? (graduates with a useful degree.)

“We’d love to have a 10 percent middle-class tax cut, and we would love to strengthen and make permanent some of other tax cuts.”

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kmj2318

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Bernie for sure.

One of the saddest things about this primary is seeing Warren for who she really is. She fought Biden on the bankruptcy bill but never brings it up, yet she attacks Bernie disingenuously all the time. She implied that Bernie was taking dark money from Sunrise. She vows to not take super pac money and ten days later switches her stance, and uses the gender card. When she says the men can take this money and no one cares, she ignores that Bernie does not. When she says "I'm just a player in the game" it's clear she is not a progressive. It's clear that the $9 million dollars came from people trying to keep her in to split votes from Bernie. She sold out and ruined her reputation for nothing.

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BladeOfCreation

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Today is going to be interesting, that's for sure.

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north6

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#68  Edited By north6

Yeah - the math on this is all different now. The Dem establishment consolidating around Biden means this will be much much closer. Buttigieg folding this early was pretty calculating, he knows he has no political future outside of a Biden cabinet pick. Bloomberg doing well and siphoning delegates away from Biden is probably Bernie's best shot now. I really think his boneheaded comments about Castro doomed Bernie, Florida will destroy him. Its really crazy he had as much hispanic support as he does considering his pre 2016 stances around immigration.

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berfunkle

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#70  Edited By berfunkle

Sorry, I'm sticking with Biden. He may not be perfect, but I prefer a more middle of the road Dem. Too bad Hillary didn't win 4 years ago.

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azteris

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I can't wait for another four years of trump due to Biden voters. Thanks guys!

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stantongrouse

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As an outsider watching the Democrats fall down the same bickering, in fighting hole they fell down in 2016 when it seemed a lot of Bernie supporters left Clinton high and dry is really sad. I hold out hope that they unite after the nominations but I don't know how likely that will be. Learn from UK Labour's (and their own) mistakes from recent elections, a divided left (and centre left) will just let the right win. Unless of course, everyone is happy with Trump, in which case, as you were.

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Efesell

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@stantongrouse: I mean at the end of the day I'll throw the vote to Biden if that's what it comes down to.

It will be with all the enthusiasm of throwing something in the garbage but so it goes.

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stantongrouse

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@efesell: I genuinely can't wait for the day when I don't feel like I am voting tactically or for the lesser of two evils. Our local candidate for the Green Party at the last UK election would have been a great MP, but with all that was going on the pressure to vote for a main party was higher than ever (for all the good it did us).

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#76  Edited By Vrikk

Youth turnout is appearing to be all bark, no bite.

The turnout is not showing up when it matters. It could be a death bell for the campaign. Bernie isn't done, but he is no longer the front runner.

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gkhan

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#77  Edited By gkhan

Biden isn't the most exciting person in the world, and I'd personally much prefer Warren or Sanders.

But you know what: I genuinely think he's a skilled politician, a competent leader, a dedicated public servant, a person with moral fiber and an overall compassionate human being. America could do A LOT worse.

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MonkeyKing1969

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It sure seems like ist will be a race between Biden and Bernie as we head to the end. Frankly, I perfere Bernie, but I wil vote for Biden even though he will be a status quo President. My real hope in in the next election Democrats win the Presidency and that some big seats are lost in the US Congress to Democrats or very moderate Republicans. One or the other is progress, but both would be nice.

I'm calling it now: $2 bet
The Donald John Trump Presidential Library will have various scandals about misappropriation of funds. I say this with no irony, this will actually happen in my opinion: by 2035 you will hear that the building's foundation is sinking into wetland it was built upon. People will say, "That can't be true, that just sounds made-up", but it will be 100% factually correct.

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TheRealTurk

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@stantongrouse said:

As an outsider watching the Democrats fall down the same bickering, in fighting hole they fell down in 2016 when it seemed a lot of Bernie supporters left Clinton high and dry is really sad. I hold out hope that they unite after the nominations but I don't know how likely that will be. Learn from UK Labour's (and their own) mistakes from recent elections, a divided left (and centre left) will just let the right win. Unless of course, everyone is happy with Trump, in which case, as you were.

1. I unfortunately think that a united Dem party is pretty unlikely. I ascribe to the theory that none of the candidates they've put forward are strong enough to beat Trump on their own, but they actually stand a pretty good chance if they'd just work together. However, nothing in Bernie's background suggests he's that kind of team player. Other people getting behind Biden is just more ipso facto proof in his mind that there's some kind of grand captial-E Establishment conspiracy against him. If he doesn't end up winning the nomination, I definitely don't see him endorsing Biden. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of a third party run, either. It would be cutting off his nose to spite his face and doom the Dems in the election, but he's enough of a narcissistic egomaniac to consider it.

2. I would also put forward the theory that you can define every election as being "about" a thing, and people vote for candidates in part about how well they respond to that thing. For example (and speaking with the outsider US perspective), the last UK election was "about" Brexit. The question on everyone's mind was "what are we going to do about Brexit?" The Conservatives answered that question by saying "We're getting Brexit done!" Now, that might be a really stupid answer, but it was at least an answer.

By contrast, Labor (I refuse to use the superfluous "u," because 'Merica!) seemed to be trying really hard to make the election about everything other than Brexit. Their platform had a lot of good, solid liberal stuff in there, but when confronted with the Brexit question, their response was a sort of navel-gazing "Well . . . not really fans but . . . maybe second referendum . . . except respect the democratic process so maybe . . . soft Brexit . . . mumblemumblemumble." It was detailed about everything except the question on people's minds and they got trounced as a result.

Applying that theory to the US, I would argue that this election is "about" Trump. The question was always going to be "what are we going to do about Trump?" Biden is resonating a bit more right now because he's got a pretty simple answer to that question - essentially "build a big diverse coalition and kick him out of office."

The problem for Bernie is that he isn't really doing that. Like Labor, he's trying to make the election about a bunch of other stuff - Medicare and corporations and "The Revolution, man!" And maybe those are worthwhile answers to some of the country's problems, but they aren't the answer to the question on people's minds right now.

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BallsLeon

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So... at this point Biden will get the nomination and lose in general election.

#HunterBiden will be the new #HillarysEmails, and Biden will make a fool of himself on the debate stage.

It brings me no joy to make this prediction.

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hippie_genocide

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I guess east coast affluent liberals came to the realization that their lives are pretty good. They have a good job with health care benefits. They paid off their student loans if they had any at all. They're more than happy to push the agenda of climate change, social justice, and general woke-ism, but as the old axiom says they voted with their pocketbook. So why flip things on its head and vote for Bernie? Biden is a safe candidate who will mostly maintain their status quo and is like a cuddly blanket to help them sleep at night without offering any real change. *Yawn*

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BallsLeon

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_Brojangles_

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#83  Edited By _Brojangles_

Given how things went Tuesday, I wouldn’t be surprised if Bernie ends up losing Michigan and possibly the rest of the rust belt with perhaps the exception of Illinois to Biden. I don’t think Bernie’s stance on immigration and policy of healthcare for undocumented immigrants is going to play well with the working class here, and could end up being a dealbreaker for a lot of folk.

It definitely isn’t going to be as clear cut as the internet has seemingly said it was going to be (shocker.)

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mikachops

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@therealturk:"with a finger-wagging holier-than-thou lecture about how much more enlightened it is than capitalism"

You can feel that, but materially speaking, having an issue with this perceived slight doesn't actually mean anything. If your issue with a movement is about rhetoric instead of actual policy than you're probably doing better than you think you are and you should (yes) check your privilege and look at why so many people are listening.

"To me, he's fundamentally the same as Trump, just from the left-wing rather than the right."

My guy, you don't know what you're talking about.

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Nodima

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Last night really felt like 2016 to me.

I wasn't paying attention at all throughout the day because I remember so clearly how unimportant the early poll results and exit polls were, or at least how much the information seemed like it fluctuated just to keep people glued to the TV. Stepped out to watch the late NBA game with a couple friends and the other TV had CNN on, this was 9/9:30, and I was totally shocked not just that Biden was winning but by how much in so many states.

One of the guys turned to me shaking his head, took a shot of tequila, rested his forearms on the bar and mumbled, "I live in a fuckin' bubble, man." This is a guy who in the past four years I've known him has helped open a family business, got engaged to his boyfriend in a state that only just legalized such things five years ago, bought a house...he's been nothing but a beacon of light and progress for me and he looked like his cat was one of the victims in that Netflix documentary.

From the very first debate, for me, it didn't matter whether I liked Biden in past election cycles or as Vice President or what any of his policies were. That was the very first non-fringe candidate in my thirty years and four Presidential elections that I saw on TV and thought, "that dude sounds mentally ill." I just couldn't understand how anyone would vote for the guy that was standing on that stage in 2020, and every following debate just furthered that.

Biden lived long enough to become the villain for a lot of people last night. I'm thoroughly discouraged. If any debates even happen, it's going to be two old grumps trying to make America great again while their brains melt out of their ears, while everyone so concerned about the moderate vote that flipped for Trump in 2016 coming back for Biden in 2020 are going to continue to miss that Biden is boring and Trump is not. THAT was what made Sanders or Warren the right candidates for the job, because they are different degrees of not boring and more importantly want to talk about the future, not the past.

Oh well. We'll always have Hardball. © Chris Matthews

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BladeOfCreation

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And the Gods of the Copybook Headings Said, "Stick to the Devil you know."

I'm not an apolitical monster hunter in fantasy Poland, so I don't have the luxury of opining about the lesser, middling, and greater evils and all that. Biden will be the nominee. I'll vote for him because I believe conditions under a Biden administration will be materially--if only marginally--better for more people.

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notnert427

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It's been rather disappointing to watch the Democratic party cannibalize itself in theoretically the most layup of elections possible. Finding someone less odious than Trump should not be a difficult task, yet here we are with a very real question of if anyone can even drum up the support to unseat the orange blowhard. Now it appears it's down to milquetoast-ass, career politician Biden (who would likely be a wildly ineffectual President) and batshit idealist Bernie who either lives in a fantasy land where goods and services don't cost money or actually wants to set the economy on fire out of disdain for capitalism and/or to give himself more of an "opportunity" to try and usher in his radical changes, fallout be damned.

Biden's...passable, I guess, but it just doesn't feel like he "won" his current position as the frontrunner for the nomination; he's simply what's left after everyone else tore each other to pieces, with the "endorsements" of him by the candidates who have bowed out being half-hearted at best. I suppose he'll get my vote simply for being preferable to the current assclown-in-chief if that's what it comes down to, but I could not possibly be less enthused about casting it. I would like to see the Democratic candidate actually undo much of the awful Trump nonsense and/or address the issues Trump doesn't give a shit about, but boy, Biden feels 100% like the guy who isn't going to rock the boat. It's not that I think the guy is wholly incompetent, but he would be "among friends" in office and I just don't buy him being forceful or willing enough to get much done. Biden doesn't seem to be particularly passionate about anything.

This is the point where Sanders supporters are probably yelling "Bernie, bro!" at the screen. No. So much no. I went into greater detail as to what my issues are with Sanders earlier in this thread, but suffice it to say that while I support some Sanders ideals in theory, I have zero faith in his ability to successfully implement even half of what he's promising. I've seen a bunch of insane straw man b.s. from the Sanders crowd about how anyone who doesn't fully support him wants people to be uninsured, hates the environment, blah, blah. Negative; many just feel that he doesn't have the first clue as to how to achieve his purported goals. Honestly, I think even his supporters quietly harbor those concerns, but choose instead to try and make things into some "moral high ground" game where they publicly pat themselves on the back for being more caring than everyone else. It is thus unsurprising that his base isn't showing out and voting, as their idealistic crowing failing to manifest is ironically fitting.

Ugh. We're left to choose between the least bad choice once again, and that goes for both the remainder of the Democratic primary and the Presidential election, no matter how it shakes out from here.

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Efesell

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If a walking gaff factory can stage a historic comeback I am not prepared to sink all the way into doom and gloom at this stage.

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chaser324

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#90  Edited By chaser324  Moderator

Honestly, the worst part about Biden's surge to being the front-runner is that he mainly achieved it by making as few public appearances as possible and just allowing his name recognition, endorsements, and the prevailing media narrative to carry him. His campaign managers have clearly recognized the fact that any public appearance is just a risk that may expose his aged and addled mental state to further scrutiny.

If he ends up as the nominee, I really don't see how Biden has any chance at winning the general election in November.

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north6

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#91  Edited By north6

All moderate Democrats had to do was go with Klobuchar, it would have been a slam dunk. Now I'm wondering if Biden's people are trying to figure out which stimulant is holding trump together, because Biden can't be expected to debate like this. Remember when people tore apart Rick Perry for forgetting the department of energy? I mean, Perry was an idiot but... this is going to be ugly.

It's a good call for Bernie to directly challenge Biden to a debate on health care, probably Biden's only chance of losing is to accept now that Bloomberg isn't playing spoiler anymore.

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Panfoot

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Great, going with the "safe" choice again, because that worked so well last time. (and before you ask, yes I voted for Hillary, both in the general election and the primary). Also can't wait for the inevitable "Biden didn't win because Sanders supporters didn't unify with the democrats" after Trump wins again.

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Efesell

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#93  Edited By Efesell

@north6: Eh, I don't think Trumps gonna debate anyone at all. Even a soft target like Biden.

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mellotronrules

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@north6 said:

Biden can't be expected to debate like this...this is going to be ugly.

yeah- this is my biggest fear. having the direct comparison of trump performing on stage next to scatterbrain joe is really going to be a problem.

of all the nominees, joe 'establishment' biden has the foggiest brain by a country mile. i worry it will negatively impact voter turnout. i could just be a pessimist, however.