People who understand arguments, how do I respond to such a dialog?

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ALavaPenguin

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#1  Edited By ALavaPenguin

If you don't want to read all this, the main parts is where I bold part of the paragraph further down where I don't understand what to do to argue with this, but may need to read more for more context.

First off, I am aware of how stupid of a conversation this is anyway, and I should just avoid, but this guy constantly is picking arguments like this, and I am not really sure what to do related to them. The point is not so much this specific conversation, but conversations like these as well [picking apart this one as an example would be fine as well].

I don't believe you need to really know the game I am talking about, as once again that doesn't matter, to help me, the point is how do I argue with this sort of reasoning?

I basically was saying how in an aspect of League of Legends professional play has made the game less enjoyable for me to watch [as in, how it has changed to promote a certain thing over the years]. I then gave a few reasons. Simple ones but this was just me talking about my opinion on the issue, no big deal, but if you must know reasons such as: "Well when it is a top and bottom lane swap every game, two of the three lanes become 1v2 lanes. This causes less early interaction between players [I went into more detail on this, but for the sake of keeping this shorter], and less dynamic matches. So I don't enjoy watching these sorts of games on the professional level anymore as they all seem too paint by numbers the same."

This was never me presenting some great argument. I was simply stating what I don't personally like about something as on offhand remark, not condemning it, but it became very clear he was wanting to argue about this.

He starts out by saying [this is paraphrasing of course, but I do think I appropriately am representing his sentiments and words], "No, it is better now" as his reasoning, and his reasoning never gets beyond "well this is the better strategy to win", and he never seems to no matter how much I tell him understand or listen to me saying how I am not saying it isn't the best strategy, I am saying it is more dull to watch as a viewer since it became a prominent strategy. I am not trying to argue against that even with him effectively giving no reason very much [and if I do prove something he says to be false, he just moves goalposts], but more of trying to just defend what I dislike.

It just goes downhill from here. I try and explain to him that isn't what i mean, but he keeps trying to misrepresent my argument in one way or another, no matter how much I tell him that is not what I am saying, and even restating my main points as to why I feel this way. He then finally makes a condescending comment, I basically say "come on man I am just saying an opinion why are you getting all argumentative about it".

He says how it is because my opinion isn't based on fact, but instead on other opinions so it is not valid, and he won't believe me unless I give him hard facts. I personally found this silly [as I if anything gave very solid reason and many as to why I dislike it, from even a core game mechanics level in detail. I am not sure how much better of facts one can give for such a like/dislike thing]. Plus, I found it silly this whole opinion based on opinion thing he was giving me, and so much as even sent him direct definitions of the word opinion that completely contradicted what he said from several dictionaries, example of one:

a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

At this point where he is trying to desperately redefine the word opinion and other such words [which he has a history of doing a lot] I said something like, "ok whatever, if you can't even accept that is what the word opinion means, I didn't even know how to have this conversation from this point." [Not to mention I went far beyond any reasonable level of proof of facts one can give for something as a personal like/dislike, as I stated earlier in far greater detail than stated in this for brevity].

How am I supposed to logically argue with this? I just don't know what to do. He is constantly changing his story, misrepresenting my case to make it easier to argue with [but to state again, misrepresenting or misstating it entirely what I am even saying], if I ever do prove something he says outright wrong he constantly moves goalposts around, and defining words how he conveniently wishes them to be defined [in more cases than just the example in this].

I just don't know what to do with this. This guy is overall a nice dude, but randomly picks these insane nonsensical arguments every few weeks and I just don't know how to deal with this. I by no means do claim to be perfect in this sort of stuff, but this all just seems crazy to me.

Also maybe I am super absurdly wrong, but I just don't see it in this case. None of this even made sense to me as any sound reasoning, and it all just seemed like some silly argument to prove it was "stupid of me for disliking _______ for the reasons I stated in great detail".

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thatpinguino

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#2  Edited By thatpinguino  Staff

There is nothing you can do to actually convince someone who refuses to meet you half way. If he won't even acknowledge that your opinion could be right to you, then you're not going to get any satisfaction out of him.

Here is some advice if you want to try anyway. Arguing with hard headed people can be rough, but my go to strategy is to try to come up with an analogy that applies to something I know they believe and apply that analogy to the situation at hand. Like in the discussion you mentioned, you might want to compare a character he doesn't like to play to the style of play you don't like in professional LoL. Or you could make a sports analogy, "Sure the Patriots win, but I hate the way they play/ operate." The trick is to stay out of the abstract with people who pull the "facts not opinions" nonsense when it comes to personal preference. Their viewpoint will always be the "factual" one and yours will be the "opinion" one and so they will contort their logic in whatever way possible to not truly re-evaluate their correctness. You have to try to pull them onto your turf without them realizing it. And if none of this works, change the subject. Arguing over minor stuff like this is just more trouble than it's worth sometimes.

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ALavaPenguin

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Yeah thanks, I will say I desperately try an change the subject, but it keeps getting brought up >_>

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egg

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#4  Edited By egg

I've seen someone argue against their original point just to keep rebuking me. It really leaves me stumped.

Maybe just say that you're not going to keep watching the game out of charity. If it bores you you're just going to stop, regardless of whether you have a reason or not.

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Sinusoidal

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How am I supposed to logically argue with this?

You can't argue logic with opinions. That's why they're opinions.

Admittedly, I skimmed the OP, but it sounds like this person you're arguing with is just arguing for the sake of arguing. Tell him you give up and he's entirely, 100% correct. Dollars to donuts he finds a way to continue arguing.

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SchrodngrsFalco

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#6  Edited By SchrodngrsFalco

I dont understand his argument. Just leave it at "it doesn't entertain me." Just keep repeating that sentiment when he trys to add facts to his "side" of the argument. Stay the course and keep bringing it up no matter the facts behind it, it doesn't entertain you and shrug your shoulders. If he says you're wrong for not enjoying it just tell him "yeah, well, that's just like, your opinion, man."

As for this being a repeating problem, just ask him why he cares so often about what you like and dislike when he brings this stuff up. Ask him why it bothers him that you feel differently about something insignificant. He sounds like the kind of guy that'll imply that he knows he's always right. That'll kind of speak for itself.

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m16mojo2

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Yeah, once you've stated that it's your opinion, they should "logically" accept that because it's stated as a "fact" that it's your opinion. It's really not worth your time and energy to engage any further with the topic.

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49th

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Punch him in the face and shout "NO!".

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Christoffer

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#9  Edited By Christoffer

On a side-note. I think opinions can, and should, be discussed just as much as anything else. People can have poorly informed opinions (i.e anime is for jerks) and they shouldn't always get away with "but it's my opinion".

But in your case it seems to be well argumented. Maybe he was trying to change your mind by "informing" you but did it so poorly that he repeatedly strayed from the central issue. There's a million ugly tricks people do to "win" arguments online (and in real life). But if you don't think he was trying to be a jerk, he was probably mixing in a lot of other discussions and arguments he had before, not really paying full attention to what you were saying and then trying to save face.

I dunno. Just leave those discussions. Fruitless.

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ALavaPenguin

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#10  Edited By ALavaPenguin

@christoffer: Yes I do agree with you on opinions, as they hide too much under the "it is just my opinion" protection than they often should, and do deserve some analysis...

But at this point when I am just saying how I don't personally find something as entertaining and here is why.... I don't see how one can argue with personal likes and dislikes in such a way.

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Akyho

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@alavapenguin: well the case actualy isnt an opinion. If you said "This style of gameplay is boring to everyone and ruins the game. This will kill LoL." That is an opinion.

What your stating is your feelings. Your feelings are "I find it boring." "I do not enjoy this. This does not satisfy me."

He has explained "but it get them to win." You can agree with him on thag easily yet keep your point by saying not opinions but your feelings and it should just end.Saying simply "I do not like it as I find it boring." dosnt give anything to argue with leaves him to make up stuff to try and pull you kn but just step back and simply state again. "Maybe so....but I am bored by this. I Do not enjoy it."

Telling people your wrong about your feelings gets harder as well. They can argue why you feem lime that but if your not moving you can just stay put with little extra explanation than your original statment.

Its not diffrent from "oooowww I just grazed my knee of the desk...aaagh this realy hurts." And someone says "oh hkw can that hurt....that was nothing....stop being a baby. You wanna know pain? Try breaking your leg. Like I did...." tbere is no real argument as what you feel become pointless to justify as it matters to you and if they cant follow or sympathise then they never will.

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Christoffer

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@alavapenguin: I agree, he was at fault (as far as I know). Sadly (or thankfully), internet forums aren't master classes of proper debate etiquette and you shouldn't try to find reason or logic in some cases. If you really really care about the discussion, I find that quotes helps a lot to bring things back on track and cement what was really said on either side. Especially on forums where each post can take days and the discussions derail into unrecognizable mutoids. And it can be handy if you think they're contradicting themselves over and over. Even quote yourself if you have to.

But that's probably overkill, and quite obnoxious, in most cases. Just leave or go with whatever the discussion turned into.