Question of the Day - Do You Ultimately Belive in Fate or Free-Will? (August 1, 2010)

Free will is an illusion, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't treat it as if it doesn't exist.  Fate is just the inevitable outcome of the trillions of quadrillions of subtle changes that affect your every moment.

Of course, then you'll end up with tricky things like being fated into having free-will, or having the free-will to be deluded into believing in fate. Paradox!

Free will in my opinion, well I hope I have free will.

Fate, although to say that you can know your fate is pretty damn stupid, given most people's ideas of fate.

I was going to choose 'Fate', but then, all of a sudden I was compelled to answer 'Free Will'.

" you cant call your own question "the question of the day" that tells me youre full of yourself :Pim sure there are official judges for this thing. i think the question of the day was asked by that kid who was interested in the mini giraffe. period. "

I believe in freely choosing my fate.

@chocolaterhinovampire said:

" @Diamond: I think both play a part in life somehow, but I just went with fate. "

But what if your free will led you on the path to your fate. I chose free will because I don't like the idea of some folk knitting away my life tonight! 
 
@Diamond: You, I like you!

" But what if your free will led you on the path to your fate. I chose free will because I don't like the idea of some folk knitting away my life tonight! 
 
@Diamond: You, I like you! "

It doesn't matter which you believe in. 

Chance and coincidence.

Fate is complete garbage in my opinion. Saying you believe in fate is bascially saying that murderers shouldn't be charged for their crimes since they were fated to do so. But I guess the people charging him are fated to do so as well?
 
Free will. My major is Philosophy so I have thought about this quite a bit :/

" Fate is complete garbage in my opinion. Saying you believe in fate is bascially saying that murderers shouldn't be charged for their crimes since they were fated to do so. But I guess the people charging him are fated to do so as well?  Free will. My major is Philosophy so I have thought about this quite a bit :/ "

Oh great. This is going to end poorly.

" Fate is complete garbage in my opinion. Saying you believe in fate is bascially saying that murderers shouldn't be charged for their crimes since they were fated to do so. But I guess the people charging him are fated to do so as well?  Free will. My major is Philosophy so I have thought about this quite a bit :/ "

Whatever you believe, it's completely irrelevant; every society needs to be run under the guise of free will, or else there is no order or sanity. You can't condemn the criminals, nor can you praise the altruists for anything they do, because it wasn't their choice, they were destined to do it. In which case, why bother? It doesn't matter what you do, because it's all you can do, and therefore, why attempt to do anything? Why try to save lives, why try to help the world? Why bother surviving, if none of it is your doing?
 
All contemporary laws of science and common sense point to a complete lack of guiding force or creator in the universe, so I obviously believe that everything we do is the result of whatever particular brand chemical chaos is going on in our brains at any time, and there is no fate or predetermination. However, even if there was evidence to the contrary, it wouldn't make any difference, because the second anyone truly starts believing that nothing they consciously do has any bearing on what will happen, the foundation of their life is gone and there is no longer any meaning in living.
 
Also, check out Xenocide by Orson Scott Card. Say what you will about the man, he at least used to be a damn good author, and there's a chunk of that book that delves directly into this topic.

This entire poll is like asking whether people believe more in unicorns or bigfoot. 
 
Fate is blind belief without substance. 
 
Free will is a bed time story people tell themselves so they can feel better at night, which ironically enough proves that free will doesn't exist. 
 
Free will only applies to a degree, there are so many factors controlling who you are and what you do that calling it completely free is beyond ignorant.

" Oh great. This is going to end poorly. "

People who argue "free will" usually fall back on "I am free to do what I want, am I not?" 
 
And yes, you are. But what you want is determined by the state of your body and your environment (both current and past) -- both things out of your control. Said factors are in turn determined by other past factors, and so it goes on, and on, and on.

What I'm getting at is that people confuse "will" with "free will". The very concept of free will -- to make choices absolutely free of constraints -- is preposterous and impossible, as it would require omnipotence; the ability to bend reality and defy logic. 
 
EDIT: Worst of all, though, are the people who bring up the murderer scenario. They're basically saying "I will not accept fate because it isn't compatible with my morals". What makes your morals the top priority? Where did you get your morals? Did you get them through logical thinking, or by blindly listening to your parents, your government, your holy book? Maybe you should sit down for a minute and ponder why you consider your morals so important.

When you're done, consider this: say we have a robot programmed to kill any living being it sees. Its creator is long dead. This robot arrives in your town. Like the murderer you used in your example, it kills; like the murderer in your example, it has no free will. By your reasoning, taking action against this robot would be wrong, just as taking action against the murderer would be wrong, correct? 
 
Just think about that for a second. Maybe, just maybe, it'll give you some valuable insight.

" People who argue "free will" usually fall back on "I am free to do what I want, am I not?" 
 
And yes, you are. But what you want is determined by the state of your body and your environment (both current and past) -- both things out of your control. Said factors are in turn determined by other past factors, and so it goes on, and on, and on.

What I'm getting at is that people confuse "will" with "free will". The very concept of free will -- to make choices absolutely free of constraints -- is preposterous and impossible, as it would require omnipotence; the ability to bend reality and defy logic. "

" This entire poll is like asking whether people believe more in unicorns or bigfoot.  Fate is blind belief without substance.  Free will is a bed time story people tell themselves so they can feel better at night, which ironically enough proves that free will doesn't exist. "

Free will. I don't believe anything is pre determined. 

My argument is simply that our brains our finite pieces of matter, as is the rest of the universe, so only one finite conclusion can come from the infinite number of reactions that take place, both organic and inorganic.
 
This however assumes that souls are pieces of matter .  If you believe souls are not governed by the laws of physics, then they may add a another variable to the equation that we call "free will".
 
So when you can find out the nature of a soul, you have your answer.

Quantum mechanics is non-deterministic, afaik. I don't think that really speaks directly to the argument, but it doesn't help the people who think that their belief in fate is scientific.

" @mazik765: Because, most of the time, people don't consciously lie to themselves. It's a natural reaction to protect their sanity and sense of prosperity. People don't want to think of themselves as machines with organic parts, that's just how it is. "

" @Icemael said:

" People who argue "free will" usually fall back on "I am free to do what I want, am I not?" 
 
And yes, you are. But what you want is determined by the state of your body and your environment (both current and past) -- both things out of your control. Said factors are in turn determined by other past factors, and so it goes on, and on, and on.

What I'm getting at is that people confuse "will" with "free will". The very concept of free will -- to make choices absolutely free of constraints -- is preposterous and impossible, as it would require omnipotence; the ability to bend reality and defy logic. "

But that is not what anyone means when they say free will. You constantly have influences being pushed upon you and influencing your decisions. But no matter how strong an influence, the final decision is ultimately yours. The environment and body, both current and past are things within someone's control. Eventually you get to the point of the immediate decision that is in your control, the consequence of which will continue on to give a similar influence on someone's opinion."

" Quantum mechanics is non-deterministic, afaik. I don't think that really speaks directly to the argument, but it doesn't help the people who think that their belief in fate is scientific. "

fate and hope are for weak people without the willpower to work for what they want, and without the strength to deal with bad things that happen throughout life

I voted fate. Yes we do have free will, (though previous arguments to this are interesting) you do have choice. I can choose to answer to this topic or I can choose to not answer it. But I do believe all our actions are already written down. Since I believe in God, I believe in his omniscience so I feel like He knows everything I'm going to do before I do it. That doesn't mean I don't have free will/choice, it just means someone already knows what my choice will be. I still have to make those choices. 

" Quantum mechanics is non-deterministic, afaik. I don't think that really speaks directly to the argument, but it doesn't help the people who think that their belief in fate is scientific. "

EDIT: Worst of all, though, are the people who bring up the murderer scenario. They're basically saying "I will not accept fate because it isn't compatible with my morals". What makes your morals the top priority? Where did you get your morals? Did you get them through logical thinking, or by blindly listening to your parents, your government, your holy book? Maybe you should sit down for a minute and ponder why you consider your morals so important.When you're done, consider this: say we have a robot programmed to kill any living being it sees. Its creator is long dead. This robot arrives in your town. Like the murderer you used in your example, it kills; like the murderer in your example, it has no free will. By your reasoning, taking action against this robot would be wrong, just as taking action against the murderer would be wrong, correct?  Just think about that for a second. Maybe, just maybe, it'll give you some valuable insight. "

" @mazik765: You're right, that was rash of me.  They're either lying to themselves or have never actually taken the time to consider their actions to any appreciable depth. "

I think both fate and free will coexist. I thought I had something to support my thoughts, but I don't know how to properly support my opinion.

All I can say is read Gods Debris

" All I can say is read Gods Debris "

" @Icemael:  What you're talking about is influence, not fate. Yes their are things at work that are beyond our control. The rotating of the earth, the colour of my skin, the weather outside etc. These are tools and influences given to us. If you were alone, you never had any urges, nothing external ever happened, it was just you and your free will, nothing would happen. You would sit there.
 
Obviously there are influences at work beyond our control. For instance, our stomachs will cause a specific sensation to let us know that you are hungry and your body needs energy. Does that mean you will eat? No, it doesn't. I see absolutely no reason why the fact that there are forces beyond our control equals the impossibility of free will. The fact that it might be raining one day is beyond my control. My body tells me that I don't want to go outside because it is cold and wet. Does that mean I won't go outside? No. As much as I find the idea of a Cartesian theater very amusing, I have absolutely no idea how your stating that there are things that are beyond one's control (which is completely true) = the inability to freely make your own decisions. "

" As much as I find the idea of a Cartesian theater very amusing, I have absolutely no idea how your stating that there are things that are beyond one's control (which is completely true) = the inability to freely make your own decisions. "

"Well since I am 'the worst of all' I may as well address the edit. The idea of murder being morally wrong to me has nothing to do with the scenario. Replace murder with anything that society might persecute an individual for, whether I agree with it or not. The idea is that if an individual has absolutely no control over their actions, do they deserve to be punished under the same legal code that is punishing them for the crime? If someone has a gun put to their head and is forced to kill a person or else they will die will surely not be punished (or at least not as harshly) in a court of law since his ability to reasonably choose has been removed. If we can agree that one is less accountable if their actions are beyond their own control, then could a murderer, or any criminal, get by on this same premise, since according to you they have no free will? "

1. Physically prevent him from doing it again.
2. Instill in him the mentality "If I commit a crime, there's a good chance I'll be punished. I now know how unpleasant punishment is, and am not prepared to take that risk again". Essentially, we try to make him too scared of the possible consequences to once again break the law.

" Also if we're going to continue this discussion, I would appreciate it if you voiced your opinion in a less obviously rude and condescending fashion. It only serves to reduce the validity of your points when you resort to attacking someone on irrelevant grounds like my religious or personal beliefs, and assuming that I am uneducated and lazy. "

" Free will is an illusion, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't treat it as if it doesn't exist.  Fate is just the inevitable outcome of the trillions of quadrillions of subtle changes that affect your every moment. "

I am saying that everything you do, you do based on things that are beyond your control. From this it obviously follows that you can, in a given situation, regardless of how many options you think you have, only do one thing.

I'm beginning to believe.