Regarding North Carolina

A lot of my close and not-so-close liberal friends seem pretty flabbergasted today. Turns out the state of North Carolina has voted on an amendment to its state constitution that would define the only valid marriages in the state as those between one man and one woman. This vote has passed by a fairly large majority, 61% to 39% as of this post.

The outrage! The shock! It’s pretty incredible how something like this could actually exist. But never fear, friends! Jeff is here to help ease the shock, and to make sense of these things for you in light of other fairly shocking things. I’ve prepared a short list of other tough topics that we’re all going to have to accept as reality before we can actually get shit done. Without further ado, here’s Jeff’s List of Five Very Surprising Things.

1. Fucking Heliocentrism

Posited as early as the third century BCE, this theory would later be reinforced by the findings of Nicolaus Copernicus and Johannes Kepler. It holds that the sun, not the Earth, is the center of the goddamn solar system (which was probably named thus in light of these shocking discoveries).

2. Fucking Gravity

Allegorically discovered when Sir Isaac Newton observed an apple falling from a tree, this insanity posits that objects are attracted by a force proportionate to their masses. Some would go so far as to posit that there exists a relationship between electro-magnetism and gravity. Shocking!

3. Fucking Subatomic Particles

Turns out, based on decades of exhaustive research spent bent over microscopes, that we are in fact random associations of matter arranged just so that we’ve got hearts and brains. Those individual components have observable individual components, the atoms, are composed of subatomic particles. Hell, those subatomic particles are theoretically composed of all manner of component pieces that folks at the LHC would like to understand better.

4. Fucking Pringles

Originally proposed in 1968, Pringles are food-like bent discs made of something like potatoes, salt, and grease from old women and cats. Scientists who ate the first Pringles made two startling conclusions: firstly, that once you popped open the large dolphin in which they were formed originally, it was hard to stop the Pringles from bleeding out; and secondly, that it would be better to store these “chips” in a large cylindrical tube to prevent people from eating them. The tube idea, and the first unofficial motto of Pringles, LLC, have stuck around to this day.

5. The Fucking Constitution

Go ahead and cry, Washington. Really, go ahead. It solves nothing. On the other hand, go ahead and gloat. We deserve some gloating. We passed our gay marriage legalization bill, and are on the right site of history. Just be sure that when you’re out gloating, you say thanks to my Constitutionalist brother. You see, friends, the same piece of the Constitution that enabled us to do the right thing has just been used in North Carolina to do the wrong thing. And the best part? It doesn’t care. The Constitution is concerned only with the forms and procedures, and could give a shit about you. No really, it doesn’t care about you. The first Americans who read the Constitution noticed this fairly large hole, and the result was the Bill of Rights. Until there is an amendment added to the Constitution of the United States that makes a final and legally binding decision on fifty states and 300 million plus citizens, the status quo of individual states deciding for themselves how to handle domestic partnerships and marriage will stand.

“So let’s change the Constitution!” I’m with you, but I must ask a question. Given the population of this country and how close the last elections have been, do you think a majority of voting citizens would vote in support of “gay marriage” amendment (I use quotes because the wording of this amendment would need to be fairly broad so as to include a more nuanced understanding of gender and provide wholesale the same rights and privileges afforded to heterosexual married couples)? I have my doubts. That might be skepticism, but it’s also realistic. Do you know how long it takes to get the wheels of a Constitutional plebiscite going in this country? If brought to bare, and then this amendment fails to gain a popular majority, do you know how long it will take to get another one up? There is no precedent for this, but my guess is “a long fucking time.”

The current arrangement allows some of my friends to be lawfully wed in the very near future. We did this as Washingtonians and should be proud of it. We stand with Iowa, Vermont, Connecticut, New York, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Washington D.C. on the right side of history. As for the rest of the country? Let them make awful decisions and be dicks. Let them live in the stone age. They are entitled to do so right now, and I see that as a good thing. I believe firmly in democracy, even when the results are off. A majority of North Carolinian voters have made an adult decision, and it should be respected as such. However, it is a shit decision. If the end product of that decision is that Washington State will become a new home to a few lovely queer couples, I welcome them with open arms.

A lot of my close and not-so-close liberal friends seem pretty flabbergasted today. Turns out the state of North Carolina has voted on an amendment to its state constitution that would define the only valid marriages in the state as those between one man and one woman. This vote has passed by a fairly large majority, 61% to 39% as of this post.

The outrage! The shock! It’s pretty incredible how something like this could actually exist. But never fear, friends! Jeff is here to help ease the shock, and to make sense of these things for you in light of other fairly shocking things. I’ve prepared a short list of other tough topics that we’re all going to have to accept as reality before we can actually get shit done. Without further ado, here’s Jeff’s List of Five Very Surprising Things.

1. Fucking Heliocentrism

Posited as early as the third century BCE, this theory would later be reinforced by the findings of Nicolaus Copernicus and Johannes Kepler. It holds that the sun, not the Earth, is the center of the goddamn solar system (which was probably named thus in light of these shocking discoveries).

2. Fucking Gravity

Allegorically discovered when Sir Isaac Newton observed an apple falling from a tree, this insanity posits that objects are attracted by a force proportionate to their masses. Some would go so far as to posit that there exists a relationship between electro-magnetism and gravity. Shocking!

3. Fucking Subatomic Particles

Turns out, based on decades of exhaustive research spent bent over microscopes, that we are in fact random associations of matter arranged just so that we’ve got hearts and brains. Those individual components have observable individual components, the atoms, are composed of subatomic particles. Hell, those subatomic particles are theoretically composed of all manner of component pieces that folks at the LHC would like to understand better.

4. Fucking Pringles

Originally proposed in 1968, Pringles are food-like bent discs made of something like potatoes, salt, and grease from old women and cats. Scientists who ate the first Pringles made two startling conclusions: firstly, that once you popped open the large dolphin in which they were formed originally, it was hard to stop the Pringles from bleeding out; and secondly, that it would be better to store these “chips” in a large cylindrical tube to prevent people from eating them. The tube idea, and the first unofficial motto of Pringles, LLC, have stuck around to this day.

5. The Fucking Constitution

Go ahead and cry, Washington. Really, go ahead. It solves nothing. On the other hand, go ahead and gloat. We deserve some gloating. We passed our gay marriage legalization bill, and are on the right site of history. Just be sure that when you’re out gloating, you say thanks to my Constitutionalist brother. You see, friends, the same piece of the Constitution that enabled us to do the right thing has just been used in North Carolina to do the wrong thing. And the best part? It doesn’t care. The Constitution is concerned only with the forms and procedures, and could give a shit about you. No really, it doesn’t care about you. The first Americans who read the Constitution noticed this fairly large hole, and the result was the Bill of Rights. Until there is an amendment added to the Constitution of the United States that makes a final and legally binding decision on fifty states and 300 million plus citizens, the status quo of individual states deciding for themselves how to handle domestic partnerships and marriage will stand.

“So let’s change the Constitution!” I’m with you, but I must ask a question. Given the population of this country and how close the last elections have been, do you think a majority of voting citizens would vote in support of “gay marriage” amendment (I use quotes because the wording of this amendment would need to be fairly broad so as to include a more nuanced understanding of gender and provide wholesale the same rights and privileges afforded to heterosexual married couples)? I have my doubts. That might be skepticism, but it’s also realistic. Do you know how long it takes to get the wheels of a Constitutional plebiscite going in this country? If brought to bare, and then this amendment fails to gain a popular majority, do you know how long it will take to get another one up? There is no precedent for this, but my guess is “a long fucking time.”

The current arrangement allows some of my friends to be lawfully wed in the very near future. We did this as Washingtonians and should be proud of it. We stand with Iowa, Vermont, Connecticut, New York, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Washington D.C. on the right side of history. As for the rest of the country? Let them make awful decisions and be dicks. Let them live in the stone age. They are entitled to do so right now, and I see that as a good thing. I believe firmly in democracy, even when the results are off. A majority of North Carolinian voters have made an adult decision, and it should be respected as such. However, it is a shit decision. If the end product of that decision is that Washington State will become a new home to a few lovely queer couples, I welcome them with open arms.

@jeffrud said:

We deserve some gloating. We passed our gay marriage legalization bill, and are on the right site of history. Just be sure that when you’re out gloating, you say thanks to my Constitutionalist brother. You see, friends, the same piece of the Constitution that enabled us to do the right thing has just been used in North Carolina to do the wrong thing.

Where are you from, again? I think I completely missed that. Fuck it. You live in President Land. It kinda blended in with New England and Iowa. And President Land 2.

I feel like there's going to be some hateful things said about North Carolinians in the next few days or weeks. Which is really going to piss off this North Carolinian that didn't give a fuck either way.

Being from NC, the early polls were showing that Amendment One would fail. But, as I said before, its funny that Christians turn out in droves against this law, but its like pulling teeth to get them to even show up to church on Super Bowl Sunday. This was nothing more than a violation of Separation of Church and State by codifying a religious stance into the law. I think if Christians were so dead-set that marriage was sacred, and vows were forever, then they'd cease divorcing at the same (or higher) rates than the secular world, and their pastors/priests would stop committing adultery and/or abusing children.

61%? I'm having a hard time fathoming this. My mind can rationalise it and see it as fact, but on an emotional level, this only registers as fiction.

@Video_Game_King: Oh, yeah. I'm from Washington State. There is a petition going around at present to do a referendum on the bills passed that would be up for popular vote in November, but my understanding is the petition will not collect enough signatures. The laws will be taking effect in June if everything holds, which should be the case.

@believer258: That's what pisses me off the most around here, is the blanket "Fuck you" people would say to anybody from the South based on this. I lived in Texas for a good chunk of my life and people occasionally give me an askance look just based on that. The truth of the matter is that within that 61% of people who voted in favor of Amendment One are probably some nice little old church ladies who wouldn't hurt a fly, and dudes you'd happily have a beer with, and people who are otherwise totally decent. There's no reason to hate them. Their decision sucks, and is inexcusable, but I won't hate them.

I say we take away NC's statehood until they learn to play nice. That can happen, right?

Remember also that it's not a popular vote that amends the US Constitution (clips from the National Archives website):

"The Archivist submits the proposed amendment to the States for their consideration by sending a letter of notification to each Governor along with the informational material prepared by the OFR. The Governors then formally submit the amendment to their State legislatures." . . . "A proposed amendment becomes part of the Constitution as soon as it is ratified by three-fourths of the States (38 of 50 States)."

So there's that.

@BiG_Weasel: I can't speak to North Carolina, but I can speak to where I lived in Texas. I grew up in a dry county where dancing was illegal until 2002.

Think about that for a minute.

The majority of people in this county are Southern Baptist or Church of Christ, a sect that won't allow instruments in worship because of literally one obscure Bible verse (despite several references to instruments elsewhere in that huge book). This is an abstinance-only, dry county with a huge alcohol dependency problem, one of the highest teen pregnancy rates in the country, and a shit economy. They could probably double the county's income by legalizing the sale of alcohol, creating jobs in doing so, and save money and resources by not having to drive thirty or forty miles to north or south just to buy the booze that they shouldn't be buying but will buy anyway.

Yes, because forcing our beliefs and morals down an entire state's throat is the right thing to do. If you live in NC and don't like it, then DONT FUCKING LIVE THERE. Marriage and things of that nature are state laws and regulations. The federal government should have no say in the matter.

@OldGuy: I probably should have looked up that procedural bit prior to writing this. Thanks for pointing this out. I think it only underscores my original point, however, which is the incredible unlikelihood of a Constitutional amendment on gay marriage that would be, as I deem it, on the right side of history.

@NlGHTCRAWLER said:

Yes, because forcing our beliefs and morals down an entire state's throat is the right thing to do. If you live in NC and don't like it, then DONT FUCKING LIVE THERE. Marriage and things of that nature are state laws and regulations. The federal government should have no say in the matter.

Isn't that exactly what NC are doing, only on a personal level? You know...forcing their own beliefs and morals on every gay person who wants to marry?

It's also not very easy to uproot your entire life and take it somewhere else.

I live in California where Prop 8 was passed.

Then overturned twice.

But they've appealed those rulings and gay marriage is STILL on hold. So in essence, California is still banning gay marriage.

But yes, that this is happening elsewhere in the country is so flabbergasting and shocking!

@NlGHTCRAWLER: I do agree with you on your main point. It will be interesting in the coming years to see more laws on this issue pass, and to see if there are actual population shifts as a result. Moving is an expensive proposition and living in western Washington is expensive, but to live the life you would want I could envision people doing just that. States like North Carolina would be the losers here, and they'll have earned it.

@AlwaysBeClothing: The scale of things in California seems to have very little baring on things elsewhere in the United States. The economy is so big, and there are so many people and interests represented. This is the state that can give us Jello Biafra and Ronald Reagan. While I can't wait to see California legalize gay marriage, I don't think it will be some sort of bellwether for the rest of the country. Conservatives will smirk and say "Of course Californial legalized gay marriage! It's so gaaaaaaaaaaaay!" I think the most important state to have done this right now is Iowa, quintessential middle America out ahead of the entire Left Coast.

Also, we beat you to gay marriage just like we'll keep beating up the Galaxy this year. SOUNDERS.

@mandude said:

@NlGHTCRAWLER said:

Yes, because forcing our beliefs and morals down an entire state's throat is the right thing to do. If you live in NC and don't like it, then DONT FUCKING LIVE THERE. Marriage and things of that nature are state laws and regulations. The federal government should have no say in the matter.

Isn't that exactly what NC are doing, only on a personal level? You know...forcing their own beliefs and morals down on every gay person who wants to marry?

It's also not very easy to uproot your entire life and take it somewhere else.

63% of the population feels this way and I doubt this is something new there so no I don't believe they are forcing anything down anyone else's throat. This has been the status quo for quite some time in that part of the country. They have the right to live in whatever shitty condition they want without interference from the federal government. This is the U.S.of A where we have the right to say or do what we want as long as it's not hurting anyone. If you are gay and live in NC, chances are you probably are not enjoying it there so much anyways. I'm a huge supporter of gay rights and humanitarianism, but forcing your opinions on a group of people that don't agree with you, is wrong no matter what type of people they are.

@jeffrud said:

@NlGHTCRAWLER: I do agree with you on your main point. It will be interesting in the coming years to see more laws on this issue pass, and to see if there are actual population shifts as a result. Moving is an expensive proposition and living in western Washington is expensive, but to live the life you would want I could envision people doing just that. States like North Carolina would be the losers here, and they'll have earned it.

I agree and I am not defending them for what they are or how they think, I am just simply defending their rights as American citizens. If they want to live in their backwards bliss then so be it.

Its going to take a hell of a lot more than Will & Grace to help people not be so freaked out about a gay couple.

LOL Pringles.

@NlGHTCRAWLER said:

@mandude said:

@NlGHTCRAWLER said:

Yes, because forcing our beliefs and morals down an entire state's throat is the right thing to do. If you live in NC and don't like it, then DONT FUCKING LIVE THERE. Marriage and things of that nature are state laws and regulations. The federal government should have no say in the matter.

Isn't that exactly what NC are doing, only on a personal level? You know...forcing their own beliefs and morals down on every gay person who wants to marry?

It's also not very easy to uproot your entire life and take it somewhere else.

63% of the population feels this way and I doubt this is something new there so no I don't believe they are forcing anything down anyone else's throat. This has been the status quo for quite some time in that part of the country. They have the right to live in whatever shitty condition they want without interference from the federal government. This is the U.S.of A where we have the right to say or do what we want as long as it's not hurting anyone. If you are gay and live in NC, chances are you probably are not enjoying it there so much anyways. I'm a huge supporter of gay rights and humanitarianism, but forcing your opinions on a group of people that don't agree with you, is wrong no matter what type of people they are.

Just for the record, the first state to secceed from the Union this next go around is where I'll be moving day and date.

@NlGHTCRAWLER: I disagree simply because when it comes to equal rights and protections, it shouldn't be put to a vote by the population of each individual state. This allows a majority to single out a minority and treat them differently. I'm pretty sure if some states in the south were still capable of voting into their constitutions a ban on interracial marriage, they would - North Carolina did before.

@NlGHTCRAWLER said:

@mandude said:

@NlGHTCRAWLER said:

Yes, because forcing our beliefs and morals down an entire state's throat is the right thing to do. If you live in NC and don't like it, then DONT FUCKING LIVE THERE. Marriage and things of that nature are state laws and regulations. The federal government should have no say in the matter.

Isn't that exactly what NC are doing, only on a personal level? You know...forcing their own beliefs and morals down on every gay person who wants to marry?

It's also not very easy to uproot your entire life and take it somewhere else.

63% of the population feels this way and I doubt this is something new there so no I don't believe they are forcing anything down anyone else's throat. This has been the status quo for quite some time in that part of the country. They have the right to live in whatever shitty condition they want without interference from the federal government. This is the U.S.of A where we have the right to say or do what we want as long as it's not hurting anyone. If you are gay and live in NC, chances are you probably are not enjoying it there so much anyways. I'm a huge supporter of gay rights and humanitarianism, but forcing your opinions on a group of people that don't agree with you, is wrong no matter what type of people they are.

I'm not saying that the state should be forced to do anything, I'm just pointing out that it is exactly what NC is currently doing to the gay people living there.

Freedom isn't native to the USA, you know, but I do find this statement strange. If people are so free they can do what they want without hurting anyone, why can't they get married?

I realise we are saying a lot of the same things, so there's probably not much point to this.

@LooseChange: The best thing to come out of Will & Grace was Jim Sterling remembering Debra Messing on that episode of Podtoid a few weeks back.

More seriously though, you are goddamn right. I'll dovetail this on an earlier comment I wrote and say that a lot of people that voted in favor of Amendment One are nice people. They were educated, from a very early age, that homosexuality was some sort of unforgivable character flaw, so they won't tolerate it. But then they'd bake you the most amazing pie you've ever had, and help you re-shingle your entire house. Just don't be gay. This makes me a little angry, but mostly it makes me sad. I don't think the generation who voted yes on this (and I'm just guessing here but I'd assume the bulk of them were over forty) can be persuaded that my gay friends are just chill people who want to be married. The best bet is probably to see that the next generations of North Carolinians aren't so afraid of difference.

I really don't understand why people have an issue with same-sex marriage. How does it affect anyone but the people getting married? Does the thought of it offend them THAT much that they have to outlaw it? I just hope our country can grow out of this infantile, irrational state in my lifetime and just let people live how they want, as long as they do it peacefully and respectfully. Also, what was that about a dolphin?

I think the reason these things get voted through is, there are people that hate same sex marriage with all their heart and the rest just dont care let people do what they want, meh. On voting day who will actually vote.

@Sergio: I'm reminded of the Christopher Moore book Lamb, wherein a young Jesus asks his dad (that God dude) about human sacrifices and why people suck, etc. God's answer was "Fuck 'em." I like that. How it relates here is that, while individually I maintain the people who approved this amendment are probably alright, they got together and made a really shitty decision. What I'd like to see is an outflux of affluent people from North Carolina to elsewhere in the country, where they will be appreciated for who they are and what they can contribute to society without being ostracized for being into dudes. This is painting with a very big brush, but an outflow of educated liberals from North Carolina and other states will leave them populated by a recalcitrant and aged majority, hopefully to rot and fall off at some point.

Man, i at least thought it was gonna be close. Where i live in NC there were signs up everywhere in protest of Amendment one. (this amendment) The government has no business in peoples personal lives. As a conservative, i feel the government can just go take a hike and as a Christian i feel God is our judge, not the state.

@ShadowConqueror: I think as long as there is not a decision at the federal level about gay marriage, we will be watching individual states waffle the question for years. Decades even. And when that federal decision process begins, it will entail a debate about the Constitution as written and powers currently delegated to individual states being taken back by "big guv'ment." It will get ugly, but that is what it will take. That's what I would like to see, and hopefully I will live long enough to see it because it will take a very long time.

@mandude said:

@NlGHTCRAWLER said:

@mandude said:

@NlGHTCRAWLER said:

Yes, because forcing our beliefs and morals down an entire state's throat is the right thing to do. If you live in NC and don't like it, then DONT FUCKING LIVE THERE. Marriage and things of that nature are state laws and regulations. The federal government should have no say in the matter.

Isn't that exactly what NC are doing, only on a personal level? You know...forcing their own beliefs and morals down on every gay person who wants to marry?

It's also not very easy to uproot your entire life and take it somewhere else.

63% of the population feels this way and I doubt this is something new there so no I don't believe they are forcing anything down anyone else's throat. This has been the status quo for quite some time in that part of the country. They have the right to live in whatever shitty condition they want without interference from the federal government. This is the U.S.of A where we have the right to say or do what we want as long as it's not hurting anyone. If you are gay and live in NC, chances are you probably are not enjoying it there so much anyways. I'm a huge supporter of gay rights and humanitarianism, but forcing your opinions on a group of people that don't agree with you, is wrong no matter what type of people they are.

I'm not saying that the state should be forced to do anything, I'm just pointing out that it is exactly what NC is currently doing to the gay people living there.

Freedom isn't native to the USA, you know, but I do find this statement strange. If people are so free they can do what they want without hurting anyone, why can't they get married?

I realise we are saying a lot of the same things, so there's probably not much point to this.

I would hope that gay rights supporters living there and around there, would boycott and protest their state and try to educate the masses in hopes of making them see how ignorant and unreasonable they are being. Maybe even start some type of system that allows gay couple's to receive the same benefits as married couples without actually getting married.

Freedom can be interpreted in many ways, but the bottom line is these people are backed up by The U.S Constitution. They have the right to vote and decide who can and who can't get married.

I guess the only thing we can do is agree to disagree since we are in fact saying the same thing, but in a different viewpoint.

Fucking Subatomic Particles, How do they wor.................Oh Nevermind.

@hughesman: I want every person upset about this to meet you. North Carolina is not a state full of backwoods, inbred neo-Nazis and Klansmen. Conservatives are not the scum of the earth. The world is full of Christians who don't want to hate anybody, for any reason at all. You'd be lumped into all of these groups by some of my friends just by association, and for that I'd venture to say that they're not much above the people who voted in favor of Amendment One.

Being that I come from a state with the absolute worst state constitution in the country, one which the legislators are too fucking dumb to scrap entirely, I can't say that I'm surprised by much or any of the politics of the South. I've got a lot of friends from North Carolina, friends who are very liberal politically and in full support of gay marriage, but that doesn't mean that the majority of the people in the South, especially those in political offices, aren't still dumber than rocks.

@Sergio said:

@NlGHTCRAWLER: I disagree simply because when it comes to equal rights and protections, it shouldn't be put to a vote by the population of each individual state. This allows a majority to single out a minority and treat them differently. I'm pretty sure if some states in the south were still capable of voting into their constitutions a ban on interracial marriage, they would - North Carolina did before.

Your logic doesn't make sense. So according to you, it's not fair that the smaller state minority is ignored, but it's perfectly fine to ignore an entire population of people who are the majority vote of several states but not the country as a whole. I don't care if they make it legal to marry their own sister, it's their decision and it's their choice. Wars have been fought to keep federal law out of U.S State affairs and another is soon to follow if people can't comprehend the importance of U.S State rights.

@jeffrud Thanks duder

I still don't understand why people are shocked by the fact that an amendment banning gay marriage nationally would probably pass. As the OP points out, opinion polls (which nationally put support just above opposition) aren't really accurate on this issue, because there are far more people passionately against gay marriage than for it. There is a VERY large section of people who in a conversation would say they supported gay marriage, but probably wouldn't take the time out of their day to vote for it (or perhaps more accurately, vote against a bill preventing it).

I am kind of sad that I wasn't able to vote because I didn't register the year before and I didn't until after the deadline of this year's election. I would've voted against amendment one. I don't see why we can't criticize the fact that North Carolinians have voted for amendment one. It's a decision that does more harm than good.

@Jrinswand said:

Being that I come from a state with the absolute worst state constitution in the country, one which the legislators are too fucking dumb to scrap entirely, I can't say that I'm surprised by much or any of the politics of the South. I've got a lot of friends from North Carolina, friends who are very liberal politically and in full support of gay marriage, but that doesn't mean that the majority of the people in the South, especially those in political offices, aren't still dumber than rocks.

I tend to skew more conservative than liberal on most things, but as a armchair legal expert, I always go with the letter of the law when in doubt. In this case, this is clearly a violation of "Church and State", as the definition of marriage is being codified as the Christian version- and not even the right Christian version. This new concept of "marriage" for love is only a few hundred years old. The original concept was meant to tie two families' assets together, as a way to expand wealth and influence. This new concept is evidently flawed, as evidenced by a 50% divorce rate, and Christians aren't exempt from that statistic, either.

I tend to skew more conservative than liberal on most things, but as a armchair legal expert, I always go with the letter of the law when in doubt. In this case, this is clearly a violation of "Church and State", as the definition of marriage is being codified as the Christian version- and not even the right Christian version. This new concept of "marriage" for love is only a few hundred years old. The original concept was meant to tie two families' assets together, as a way to expand wealth and influence. This new concept is evidently flawed, as evidenced by a 50% divorce rate, and Christians aren't exempt from that statistic, either.

I don't like commenting on these threads (especially when I'm on a phone) but I wanna throw my 2 cents in real quick. Things take time to change. People fear what they don't understand or can relate too. It's supposed to be a man and woman. When it's not it spooks people. That's why racism is still a big issue although it's much better than it used to be in the states. Eventually this will be fine. It may take 5 years or 50 years but it will happen. Give it time.

@Sackmanjones said:

I don't like commenting on these threads (especially when I'm on a phone) but I wanna throw my 2 cents in real quick. Things take time to change. People fear what they don't understand or can relate too. It's supposed to be a man and woman. When it's not it spooks people. That's why racism is still a big issue although it's much better than it used to be in the states. Eventually this will be fine. It may take 5 years or 50 years but it will happen. Give it time.

I think telling people to wait for up to 50 years is kind of ridiculous. How will it be fine when a huge number of people will be dead by then?

Why does a state or any form of government have to condone marriage? Isn't that between the people and their church? Shouldn't the idea of marriage itself be unconstitutional and there should only be civil unions for all.

@NlGHTCRAWLER said:

Yes, because forcing our beliefs and morals down an entire state's throat is the right thing to do. If you live in NC and don't like it, then DONT FUCKING LIVE THERE. Marriage and things of that nature are state laws and regulations. The federal government should have no say in the matter.

Great. I'll take my 20 year old self and just move on out, 'cause the two hundred dollars to my name is gonna carry me pretty far, isn't it?

@jeffrud said:

@believer258: That's what pisses me off the most around here, is the blanket "Fuck you" people would say to anybody from the South based on this.

And here's a great example of what you're talking about.

@Ravenlight said:

I say we take away NC's statehood until they learn to play nice. That can happen, right?

@Sackmanjones said:

I don't like commenting on these threads (especially when I'm on a phone) but I wanna throw my 2 cents in real quick. Things take time to change. People fear what they don't understand or can relate too. It's supposed to be a man and woman. When it's not it spooks people. That's why racism is still a big issue although it's much better than it used to be in the states. Eventually this will be fine. It may take 5 years or 50 years but it will happen. Give it time.

I think telling people to wait for up to 50 years is kind of ridiculous. How will it be fine when a huge number of people will be dead by then?

@Sackmanjones said:

@CustomOtto

@Sackmanjones said:

I don't like commenting on these threads (especially when I'm on a phone) but I wanna throw my 2 cents in real quick. Things take time to change. People fear what they don't understand or can relate too. It's supposed to be a man and woman. When it's not it spooks people. That's why racism is still a big issue although it's much better than it used to be in the states. Eventually this will be fine. It may take 5 years or 50 years but it will happen. Give it time.

I think telling people to wait for up to 50 years is kind of ridiculous. How will it be fine when a huge number of people will be dead by then?

Well if you have an exact date on when it will be fixed I'm sure people would love to hear it. I'm saying some things take a long time to get sorted out and this is one of those things.

How do you think these things change? It's not by people just sitting around and waiting.

@believer258 said:

@NlGHTCRAWLER said:

Yes, because forcing our beliefs and morals down an entire state's throat is the right thing to do. If you live in NC and don't like it, then DONT FUCKING LIVE THERE. Marriage and things of that nature are state laws and regulations. The federal government should have no say in the matter.

Great. I'll take my 20 year old self and just move on out, 'cause the two hundred dollars to my name is gonna carry me pretty far, isn't it?

If it bugged you enough, sure why not?

@NlGHTCRAWLER said:

@Sergio said:

@NlGHTCRAWLER: I disagree simply because when it comes to equal rights and protections, it shouldn't be put to a vote by the population of each individual state. This allows a majority to single out a minority and treat them differently. I'm pretty sure if some states in the south were still capable of voting into their constitutions a ban on interracial marriage, they would - North Carolina did before.

Your logic doesn't make sense. So according to you, it's not fair that the smaller state minority is ignored, but it's perfectly fine to ignore an entire population of people who are the majority vote of several states but not the country as a whole. I don't care if they make it legal to marry their own sister, it's their decision and it's their choice. Wars have been fought to keep federal law out of U.S State affairs and another is soon to follow if people can't comprehend the importance of U.S State rights.

I think you are confused. When I'm talking about minority, I'm not talking about the side that had the fewer number of votes, even if that's the case here, I'm talking about racial minorities, gender minorities, sexual orientation/identification minorities.

A majority cannot vote on a law to hamper a minorities' ability to vote. They've tried of course, and the federal government had every right to step in and, as you say, force their opinions on them even if they didn't agree. The U.S. Supreme Court had every right to force their opinions on them when they ruled that bans on interracial marriage were unconstitutional.

This isn't a state's rights issue, even though some would like to claim it is, it's an equal rights issue. But you're right, wars have been fought over states trying to retain the right to suppress a minority.

@NlGHTCRAWLER said:

@believer258 said:

@NlGHTCRAWLER said:

Yes, because forcing our beliefs and morals down an entire state's throat is the right thing to do. If you live in NC and don't like it, then DONT FUCKING LIVE THERE. Marriage and things of that nature are state laws and regulations. The federal government should have no say in the matter.

Great. I'll take my 20 year old self and just move on out, 'cause the two hundred dollars to my name is gonna carry me pretty far, isn't it?

If it bugged you enough, sure why not?

Do you really not see how absurd it is to tell people if they don't like not having full rights they should pack up their lives, leave their families and friends behind, quit their jobs, and take a huge gamble.

@NlGHTCRAWLER said:

@believer258 said:

@NlGHTCRAWLER said:

Yes, because forcing our beliefs and morals down an entire state's throat is the right thing to do. If you live in NC and don't like it, then DONT FUCKING LIVE THERE. Marriage and things of that nature are state laws and regulations. The federal government should have no say in the matter.

Great. I'll take my 20 year old self and just move on out, 'cause the two hundred dollars to my name is gonna carry me pretty far, isn't it?

If it bugged you enough, sure why not?

I guess he'll just live on the side of the road then in California. That argument is dumb. It's unrealistic in some cases depending on your financial situation.

Why not try to make the place you live in a better place for you and other people? It seems that was the intention of all of the North Carolinians that voted for and against amendment one. The issue shouldn't be dropped just because some people in NC voted for amendment one.

Well, it's not surprising. And no, it's only a religious standpoint; plenty of cultures and countries that have no Christian heritage still have segments that do not approve. I'm not commenting on it either way, I'm just saying it's still not a normative viewpoint in much of the world. Personally, I'm pretty libertarian, so I'm pro gay marriage, at least where state intervention is concerned; but I definitely understand people that aren't.

For example, there are many different views of what marriage is supposed to be. From a historical standpoint, the idea of marriage as an expression of love is a relatively new one. If you go back say, 100 years or a little more, it was still very common to have an arranged marriage (and in some parts of the world, it still is).

That said, give it time; seriously. Do you realize how much has changed in like the last 20 years where these matters are concerned? Compared to almost everything, like say, civil rights or women's rights, LBGT rights are moving along at a remarkable clip; like prohibition, it's really only a matter of time.

But one thing that everyone here should realize, is that those who oppose it don't necessarily hate anyone. That word gets thrown around so much, but the reality is that at least among younger people, there aren't even that many conservative Christians who hate homosexuals. A devout Christian shouldn't hate anyone, period. Granted, I'm sure some people do, and that's shameful. Still, disapproval and hatred are not synonyms, not even close.