Scott Pilgrim vs. Gender Equality and Classic Video Games

I wrote a review of Scott Pilgrim vs. the World.  Spoiler: I found it pretty and pretty offensive.
 
I feel bad simply linking to another page in a blog, but the movie (or, at least, it's appeal) is so deeply entrenched in video game culture and history that I feel like sharing it with the GB as well as the Screened is a must. 
 
Edit: if you are about to comment without reading the whole thread, know that I hadn't read a single panel of the comics before watching the film.  Since then, I've started the books and I think they're much better.

I wrote a review of Scott Pilgrim vs. the World.  Spoiler: I found it pretty and pretty offensive.
 
I feel bad simply linking to another page in a blog, but the movie (or, at least, it's appeal) is so deeply entrenched in video game culture and history that I feel like sharing it with the GB as well as the Screened is a must. 
 
Edit: if you are about to comment without reading the whole thread, know that I hadn't read a single panel of the comics before watching the film.  Since then, I've started the books and I think they're much better.

I am so sick of people bitching about being offended.

I read the first three volumes of the comic before giving up.  My problems were that is boring and all the characters whiny.  I like your point about Ramona, however.

People get offended easily these days, it might seem.  Or maybe there are just more things that are offensive.

Hey stop getting offended. When a dude burns down your house for the color of your skin then you can be offended.

*sigh* 
 
It has begun.

The gay room mate is the most likeable character in the show. Being promiscuous is mockery? It's just a character trait. If it was a straight person you wouldn't have given it a second thought. Your complaints are really petty and at times based on unfounded presumptions.
Also, you complain how it apparently mocks video games (which is a weird as conclusion BTW) but then end it by calling anyone who likes the movie a meat head.
 
Basically your review reeks of paranoia, seeing insults and sexism where none truly exists.

Scott Pilgrim vs. The endless amount of times someone uses "Scott Pilgrim Vs. *enter specific topic here*" threads. 
 
also, this movie isn't suppose to be Citizen Kane. It's a simple film that's fun as hell to sit through (I've seen it multiple times). I skimmed through your review and you made a point about Ramona only being defined by her exes, and I thought it was an obvious metaphor the movie was trying to make when beginning a new relationship. Also, yes, Pilgrim is a scumbag, but in the end he learns this about himself and is able to confront his wrongs... there isn't 20 minutes of soul searching, because the movie doesn't take itself that seriously(as it shouldn't).. 
 
yup.

Romona isn't an interesting character until toward the end I'm told, but if you want to be fair most comics and games ect ect are offensive in one way or another. But I doubt it's meant to be that way, everything can't be "We are all awesome and equal in every way, shape, form, blah yay!" there are people who are actually that way in one place or another, in the end you have to understand that not everyone is a role model.
 
(This was bigger.. but I deleted it... because I'm tired and my brain is running on fumes.. yey)

" Scott Pilgrim vs. The endless amount of times someone uses "Scott Pilgrim Vs. *enter specific topic here*" threads.  also, this movie isn't suppose to be Citizen Kane. It's a simple film that's fun as hell to sit through (I've seen it multiple times). I skimmed through your review and you made a point about Ramona only being defined by her exes, and I thought it was an obvious metaphor the movie was trying to make when beginning a new relationship. Also, yes, Pilgrim is a scumbag, but in the end he learns this about himself and is able to confront his wrongs... there isn't 20 minutes of soul searching, because the movie doesn't take itself that seriously(as it shouldn't)..  yup. "

you made a point about Ramona only being defined by her exes, and I thought it was an obvious metaphor the movie was trying to make when beginning a new relationship.

This review offends me.

I don't understand the gay stereo type thing. 
He seemed to be the most down to earth character in the movie. 
He didn't have any of the gay stereo types like butch or flaming. 
 
The only things he had going for him was that he had sex.  So what if he had sex? 
 
Also most people in the movie constantly gave Scott Pilgrim shit because of the way he treated women as objects.  The women were depicted as pissed off when he was around or using them.  Ramona being defined by her exes was kind of the point.

" @Pinworm45: Same here. It's no Orson Scott Card or anything even close to that.  Chill out people. "

that was the most misunderstood review i've ever seen, are you sure you watched the right movie?

" @TurboMan said:

" Scott Pilgrim vs. The endless amount of times someone uses "Scott Pilgrim Vs. *enter specific topic here*" threads.  also, this movie isn't suppose to be Citizen Kane. It's a simple film that's fun as hell to sit through (I've seen it multiple times). I skimmed through your review and you made a point about Ramona only being defined by her exes, and I thought it was an obvious metaphor the movie was trying to make when beginning a new relationship. Also, yes, Pilgrim is a scumbag, but in the end he learns this about himself and is able to confront his wrongs... there isn't 20 minutes of soul searching, because the movie doesn't take itself that seriously(as it shouldn't)..  yup. "

This although never use the Citizen Kane argument. "

I don't want to get into a discussion of Film vs. Comic, but i think that without the more extensive exposition of the comics, Ramona is little more than a two-dimensional character in the film. That was what most annoyed me about the film, the self-reflexive irony of the "I'm so fucked up"/"lets watch Juno" character was lost, and she just became a shallow version of Clementine from Eternal Sunshine.  She's far less pathetic and empty in the comics.
 
It's that self-reflexivity, ridiculing the story, the characters, and the "indie"/"retro gamer" context the plot takes place in that raises Scott Pilgrim out of the majority of the criticisms you level against it in your review. The franchise is written by a man who is very much in that world, but (like most people in it), seems to appreciate how much of a stupid culture it is, populated with dicks. 
 
I kinda agree with you about his gay roommate, to a degree, but outside of his promiscuous antics he's shown as the most caring, and one of the more intelligent, characters in the frachise. The film removes most of those features as it condensed 1000 pages into 90 minutes, so the moments that are kept are for laughs. 
 
There are so many characters in the story that a 90 minute film could never represent them as anything other than stereotypes, which is why it focusses so much on the action, the video game references, and general visual flare. 
 
I guess I'm agreeing with you, it's just frustrating to see that the self-criticism and irony of the whole thing doesn't come across in the film without reading the comics beforehand.
 
(And on a more simple note, the story is only the same as the comics up until the 2nd fight, everything else is movie-specific).
 
SORRY FOR THE WALL OF TEXT

" I am so sick of people bitching about being offended. "

Jesus fucking Christ. People get offended by everything these days. 
 
There are no black characters, and that's racist! There are black characters, but they aren't completely non-stereotypical, and that's racist! There are black characters, but the protagonist kills them, and that's racist! There are women with physical and/or emotional weaknesses, and that's sexist! There are women who take orders from men, and that's sexist! There are women who need to be saved by men, and that's sexist! There are aliens in this movie and the humans kill them, and that's speciesist!
 
You whiners don't even know what the words racism and sexism mean. What's next? Are you going to complain about how it's offensive to people with red hair that a redhead in some movie is a pathetic loser and dies?

" Jesus fucking Christ. People get offended by everything these days. 
 
There are no black characters, and that's racist! There are black characters, but they aren't completely non-stereotypical, and that's racist! There are black characters, but the protagonist kills them, and that's racist! There are women with physical and/or emotional weaknesses, and that's sexist! There are women who take orders from men, and that's sexist! There are women who need to be saved by men, and that's sexist! There are aliens in this movie and the humans kill them, and that's speciesist! You whiners don't even know what the words racism and sexism mean. What's next? Are you going to complain about how it's offensive to people with red hair that a redhead in some movie is a pathetic loser and dies? "

indeed i would like some tokenism in scott pilgrim too

" @Icemael said:

" Jesus fucking Christ. People get offended by everything these days. 
 
There are no black characters, and that's racist! There are black characters, but they aren't completely non-stereotypical, and that's racist! There are black characters, but the protagonist kills them, and that's racist! There are women with physical and/or emotional weaknesses, and that's sexist! There are women who take orders from men, and that's sexist! There are women who need to be saved by men, and that's sexist! There are aliens in this movie and the humans kill them, and that's speciesist! You whiners don't even know what the words racism and sexism mean. What's next? Are you going to complain about how it's offensive to people with red hair that a redhead in some movie is a pathetic loser and dies? "

I think he was interested in a discussion but apparently nothing can be discussed here without loudmouthed "I'm not bothered so you're an asshole!" troll posts like this that add literally nothing. "

I think he was interested in a discussion but apparently nothing can be discussed here without loudmouthed "I'm not bothered so you're an asshole!" troll posts like this that add literally nothing. "

@Icemael
A film doesn't need to have race or a gender as a central issue to be problematic with its representations. If racist or sexist (or "anything-ist") archetypes blend naturally into the background of any film as accepted, with nobody questioning it, couldn't that be more of a problem? I'm gonna say i don't find much of that in Scott Pilgrim but you can't really just dismiss it as a general rule.
 
Also I think a lot of Wallace Wells' (the gay room mate) character is developed around the archetype of a gay best friend; the constant gossip, promiscuous sex, etc. He his defined by recognisable stereotypes of "gay best friends". I don't think it's unreasonable to call this character into question. (Like i said before this only really matters for the film as he's a more rounded character in the comics).

I agree with that, and there are  a couple more gay characters in the film who don't have those attributes (apart from the promiscuous sex), i just don't think it's a subject you can end with a definitive answer like "It's not problematic" or "It is problematic" instead of a discussion.
 
Wallace Wells wasn't even a problem i had with the film, i think it's just the repercussions his character has in a film context where there's a lot of that "gay best friend" character, and it can kinda resonate with a bunch of negative things it doesn't really contribute to.
 
I was more confused when Gideon called Knives "Kung Pao Chicken"....

I'm not surprised that a series basically centering on adolescent male wish-fulfillment would lead to questionable characterisations of women and the gay 'other'. The comic series is sheer puerility.

If you get offended by this, i'd hate to see how you react when theres overt and intentional racism and sexism.
@DevWil said:

 "the character is gay for no reason other than be an object of ridicule  . "

" Jesus fucking Christ. People get offended by everything these days. 
 
There are no black characters, and that's racist! There are black characters, but they aren't completely non-stereotypical, and that's racist! There are black characters, but the protagonist kills them, and that's racist! There are women with physical and/or emotional weaknesses, and that's sexist! There are women who take orders from men, and that's sexist! There are women who need to be saved by men, and that's sexist! There are aliens in this movie and the humans kill them, and that's speciesist! You whiners don't even know what the words racism and sexism mean. What's next? Are you going to complain about how it's offensive to people with red hair that a redhead in some movie is a pathetic loser and dies? "

" I'm not surprised that a series basically centering on adolescent male wish-fulfillment would lead to questionable characterisations of women and the gay 'other'. The comic series is sheer puerility. "

" If you get offended by this, i'd hate to see how you react when theres overt and intentional racism and sexism.
@DevWil said:

 "the character is gay for no reason other than be an object of ridicule  . "

Too bad wallace is one of the best characters in the entire series. I am downright offended if you think hes only existence in the series is to simply being an object or ridicule.  He sleeps around...how does that insult him? How is being promiscuous a gay property.  Also you seem to be insulted that there are references, why? Do you think its 'pandering' when you are talking to a friend and he makes a 'down-right-fierce' joke, or another video game joke or do you get back up on your high horse, flick your nose up and scream 'GOD, I ALREADY KNOW THAT REFERENCE, DID YOU THINK I DIDNT, STOP TRIYNG TO IMPRESS ME'.    As far as the anti-female aspect, i really don't see it. But then again i dont have a hissy fit of white mans burden. "

Ok I get it, some people don't like the movie. I stopped caring 2 weeks ago.

" when female/minority characters are defined only by stereotypical roles and characteristics, a story should be criticized as such.
 
at this point, i can concede that maybe i emphasized and was too acutely aware of the flat female characters and didn't take into account that none of the characters were very interesting. misogyny is something that really bothers me and i really believe that it still exists in 2010 because of continuing anti-feminist depictions of women in media. "

i tried reading the comic but it was really boring and i couldn't tell any of the characters apart because the art is super bad. 
 
well, thats my scott pilgrim story. i hope you all enjoyed it!

" @sawfish22 said:

" @Pinworm45: Same here. It's no Orson Scott Card or anything even close to that.  Chill out people. "

You mean its not quality writing? Yeah I agree. Its based on a comic book after all, and comics are written for 40 year old men. "

" I wrote a review of Scott Pilgrim vs. the World.  Spoiler: I found it pretty and pretty offensive. I feel bad simply linking to another page in a blog, but the movie (or, at least, it's appeal) is so deeply entrenched in video game culture and history that I feel like sharing it with the GB as well as the Screened is a must. "

Wait, what was wrong with the gay character? I'm confused.

" @DevWil said:

" when female/minority characters are defined only by stereotypical roles and characteristics, a story should be criticized as such.
 
at this point, i can concede that maybe i emphasized and was too acutely aware of the flat female characters and didn't take into account that none of the characters were very interesting. misogyny is something that really bothers me and i really believe that it still exists in 2010 because of continuing anti-feminist depictions of women in media. "

You're missing my point, which is that unless the movie specifically attributes the female characters' personalities to the fact that they're female (as in they are the way they are because they're women, and only because they're women), there's nothing "sexist" or "misogynistic" about it. You can speculate on whether the creators are sexists, but there's nothing sexist about the film itself -- and it's the film you're reviewing. "

" none of the women had any meaningful motivations or redeeming qualities, in my opinion  "

" , in my opinion.  virtually all of the female characters were motivated by what men thought of them and were either obsessive or emotionally detached. . "

"it's literally just "Hey, remember this?!" and then people have their nostalgia bone tickled and they giggle a little bit. seriously, the whole movie (to me) is best summed up by the second ex hearing a Mega Man sound come from his phone, looking at it, and saying in a dopey kind of deadpan, "that's hilarious".  nearly all the video game stuff is pure callbacks and has no substance of its own.  it's all superficial.   the filmmakers put it in there for the audience to recognize.  it didn't really add anything to the story, though.  again, the movie (and, based on what i've seen, the game) handles chiptune in such a way that i don't think i'm wrong about their unwitting contempt for old video games.  you don't just put a beck song through low fidelity synthesizers and call it chiptune.  chiptune isn't just about how the music is produced, it's also a fairly specific style of composition (arpeggios vs chords, etc).
 
it's not like scott pilgrim (in the movie, mind you) is even shown playing any games except that fake DDR x tekken game. going on the movie's content alone, you can't jump to the conclusion that scott pilgrim's view is so informed by video games that he sees himself as Link and Ramona as Zelda or anything like that.  the way people are talking makes it seem like, in the books, scott pilgrim has a warped perception of reality because of video games (which seems like it could also be sending a troublesome message).  that doesn't come through in the movie.  what comes through in the movie is that the people telling the story have a creative representation of reality, not scott pilgrim himself. 
 
"down-right fierce" is a video game joke.  a funny one, even.  knives asking whats-his-face what he plays and him answering "uh...zelda...?" isn't a video game joke.  it's a joke that incorporates video games.  the joke is that she meant one thing and he thought she meant something else.  OH WHAT A HILARIOUS MISUNDERSTANDING....AND HE SAID ZELDA!  make the character a jock and substitute the word "football' for "zelda" and the joke is no different. . "

This thread is pretentious. Your review sucks. I have beef. Let's fight.

" I am so sick of people bitching about being offended. "

People get offended too easily.

" This thread is pretentious. Your review sucks. I have beef. Let's fight. "

" @Napalm said:

" This thread is pretentious. Your review sucks. I have beef. Let's fight. "

This. "