Should the UK stay in or leave the EU?

Problem with that logic is that it was the elites who plotted this obviously terrible course. The people did nothing but check one box or the other. Really the problem with trusting expert rule is that the experts are the ones fucking up in this era.

@pyrodactyl: One problem with John Oliver's segment on Brexit is that he never mentions David Cameron a single time. His argument seems to be, "Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson are idiots, therefore anyone voting Leave is an idiot."

And the level of bias meant it couldn't be broadcast on British TV due to Ofcom regulations. I said during Leave's campaign that they didn't seem to have a plan for victory and it's showing. I can actually see that second referendum getting through to save face. Farage can act all miffed but secretly, his single issue (he literally has no other things to campaign on besides exiting Europe) would be back on the table. In a general election, he has no weight. Meanwhile, Boris Johnson doesn't have to be the man that pushes go on Article 50, meaning he can challenge at the next election.

They'll push the second referendum, have another go at campaigning (with the added ammunition of this reaction to the vote) and then probably stay in Europe.

The idea that we vote on things and then just keep voting on them multiple times until the wanted result is achieved doesn't sit well with me. The impact of Brexit to my area of interest (UK research) is very likely to be profoundly negative and I don't want to leave the EU primarily because of this. That said, if we don't honor the outcome of a referendum then the impact will be profoundly negative on democratic process overall and that would be even worse in my eyes.

It doesn't but you'd like something a bit more unanimous so there's less friction going forward. Especially if it involves two further referendums about Northern Irish and Scottish independence.

I think the one thing you'll see come out of this is a major increase in 18-24 voter turnout for the next few major elections. UK kids just learned that "old people" will roll out in force, so maybe put down your phone and fucking vote if you want to have a right to be angry. When you start talking narrow margins like this, getting the 18-24 turnout (who seemed to be a "Remain" majority) up to the 65+ turnout may have flipped this whole thing on its head.

From my narrow view, I think the Remain campaign completely flubbed this one. The vast majority of coverage I saw come out of that camp was all about fear mongering: the economy would light on fire, all sorts of jobs would flee, etc. It's fitting that it proved to be true (at least in the short term), but with this anti-intelectual opinion starting to surge (both in the UK and here in the US), it reads like people saying "We know better than you, you need to do what we say." Hilariously and sadly, that's probably going to be true, but when the Leave campaign is talking about all the "good" that exiting would do (a lot of that may turn out to be fiddling with the numbers to make things look better than they will turn out to be, but it fucking worked, didn't it?), their message comes off as much more positive and feel-good, which in the current climate is going to win out every time.

It's amazing how you can (probably) be so right, but not convincing. Remain was outmaneuvered, out-talked, and out-messaged.

I really hate how I can't tear myself away from the news and play some damn video games already.

I see some people seemingly trying to claim that, hey people who voted leave were "tricked", or they fell for some kind of con. If only they could have been convinced they voted for the wrong outcome. Doesn't sit well with me.

Me too

Yeah, it's really unsettling how the "Leave" campaign was basically built on a pile of lies and they had no real plan for what was to come if it passed.

People are now waking up to find their country falling apart, their economy sliding toward a recession, and none of the selling points of Leaving actually panning out. It's why you've got angry guys freaking out that they're not immediately halting immigration and acting like the referendum meant taking back their country from Muslims, Polish, and anyone not English enough. Some people are attacking and harassing random victims and protesting for some kind of dramatic shift in the demographic structure of England.

And many are lamenting their vote and complaining that they weren't given all the facts. A lot of non-bigoted people were genuinely sold fantasies by politicians and media that this wouldn't take a big toll on the country or inconvenience everyone's lives. They thought it wouldn't pass or it'd just send a message of displeasure. Politicians like Farage and Johnson were lying through their teeth. People thought it'd get more money for the NHS or give the country more bargaining power with the EU. But now they're finding it is actually happening, the NHS is actually going to be losing money from this, the UK has to now figure out a messy and expensive transition process, none of the political leaders want to actually initiate Article 50 and they all clearly don't have much of a plan, and people have lost a lot of money and stability they thought was there just a week ago.

The UK has shot itself in the foot, and a great many were misled to the true impact of that action. Now it's just a matter of figuring out if this can somehow be undone or the painful transition made more bearable for people.

Well just wait for Scotland and Northern Ireland to leave and you will be left with an more unanimous situation, it works out itself you see ;)

@truthtellah: I wouldn't jump to conclusions and think you can speak for everyone. The majority of voters voted for this, obviously things will be hard and uncertaint to begin with, but to assume that those same majority now would like to take their vote back seems very... i don't know? Naive?

Considering it was a narrowly-passed referendum, it isn't untoward to think many would see the disastrous fallout of this vote and realize this was a misguided move. More people especially realize the importance of it now, and any second referendum would likely see far greater turnout and an overturning of this. Only need a million or so to realize the mistake of this vote or another million to participate.

Frankly, it's in the best interests of all major parties to undo this. Even UKIP seem a bit taken aback by the actual reality of it.

Labour's just imploded.

He hasn't enough support to fill a shadow cabinet. Also talk of Labour sabotaging the Remain campaign because he wouldn't stand shoulder to shoulder with Cameron.

Side Note: The guys reading this thread and sending me threatening insults on Twitter and elsewhere, please don't waste both of our time. I'm going to continue to share my concerns about this.

If you wanna disagree, you don't need to try to get rid of me; you can kindly just offer your own views in the thread. Thanks.

It gets better. The fella who created the 3m signed petition for the second referendum was a Leave supporter who wanted a safety net if Leave didn't win.

English Democrat, he says ...

I really hope this comes to pass, while I know the people that voted leave will be like "it cannot be undone" I hope all party's look at this and overturn it so we and other places don't face anything close to another recession. Hell some people who were not of the awful "Take our country back" mindset have even gone as far to being on TV and openly regretted their vote.

Yeah, seeing those Leave voters who thought they were "just sending a message", thought it'd benefit NHS, or didn't realize how much of a big deal this was openly regretting their votes is tough. A whole lot of people were misled by the Leave campaign, and many people just angry with the crappy job Cameron has done thought it'd reproach him, not realizing the great damage it actually passing would do.

Seems likely that a recession will now happen either way, as the country was hurt and the market was shocked by this, but there may be hope to cut the losses and make this just a regrettable but temporary stumble for the country.

I'm sorry but this whole thing is a joke. The leave won, if remain ahd won then you'd be tellig all us leave folks to suck it up and stop whineing. Leave got a majority. end of. Maybe a few voters are worrying they made a bad choice but that's to be expected. Big changes are happening and frankly it is only good for the country. Labour and conservative imploding? GREAT! It means we are going to be saddled with the same old crap now. Just for clarification i am 25, not in the golden "18-24" age bracket which seemingly think they are the only ones that should vote because they are here the longest. I'm 25. I wanted out and don't regret my decision. Frankly this whole thing just wreaks of young people throwing rattle out of their pram like they do every time they don't get their own way. It's a joke.

i felt so sad when i saw this. uk government have always been on our side when it came to us trying to be a democratic country. but now i feel like the people have been thinking differently. british government may see the benefit of a westernized turkey but half of uk population doesn't even care if we are governed by a heavily radicalized, religious government. islam did not even had a renaissance, people don't differentiate science, art or everything else with religion. and casting out turkey because it is a muslim country is only making it difficult for people like me, simple, sometimes religious, but nonetheless, in support of a secular, democratic country.

i totally respect both opinions but building a policy around a highly unstable country, that being turkey, is dangerous.

edited this post because i didn't choose right the words. probably would have offended some people.

@truthtellah: Denial is certainly one of the five stages. There are still many leave voters, like myself, who see this as really positive. There are also parliamentarians who accept what happened and stand to act on it. Those in Labour seem still to be in denial that their leader has more in common with the core voters of this country - the party members who voted him in - than they do. Clearly, we should have had a vote on political union in 1992 for Maastricht, or Lisbon in 2007, so no wonder many young voters can't remember how we got into the EU. I think people are very quick to pre-judge the long-term outcome of this. It really has only just begun, so judgments should be reserved until we are actually out.

It is good to see people so inspired by politics, that they may become less apathetic about it and start understanding how their lives can be changed through political process. Negative reactions and anger can inspire action, so - as long as people can debate reasonably and not let themselves be overcome by hyperbole and slander, interest can increase and we can see a return to adversarial politics, where both sides actually disagree with each other about specific issues and values.

Certainly been some "negative" reactions and anger, to say the least.

Warning: Violence and blood. https://twitter.com/b0redinbucks/status/746835825703391233

Pack all that on the economic crash this has unleashed, it seems rather reasonable many people are kinda worried.

@truthtellah: @hkabaran:I understand what your saying (Hkabaran), radicalized religious anything is without question dangerous. However racism brought on by fear is just as dangerous and played apart in this whole thing. I'm half White (English) and half brown, My entire family and I are Christians, I was talking with 2 extended Family members only yesterday as to why they voted out and they're reason was solely based on a type of foreigner. When I asked why or what did they think the economic benefits were of leaving? My aunt ended the conversation to me with "Oh we don't mean you" that made me feel very very uncomfortable.

I Believe in democracy, however I never thought this issue should have been up to the popular vote to decide, not enough people knew enough of the truth's of what it is the EU even does. This is why we have elected officials and 48% and 51% are too small to make this big a decision that will affect more country's than just us.

Top that off with the amount of people that voted leave, thinking a huge amount of money would be pumped into the NHS among other huge false promises that didn't even take 48 hours to be broken and watching so many people in shock with what will actually happen by way of leaving the EU and openly regretting their vote. Say what you will but if you found out you voted based on a lie less than 24 hours after the election, you'd be furious.

I hope Parliament takes a long hard look at these things as well as the aftermath and just say forget principal for once, We'll all be worse off if this happens and not leave the EU.

The currency tanked, Scotland and Northern Ireland are probably going to bail, racism has only increased, pretty much every promised made has been broken already and nobody knows what the fuck is going to happen, but hey, at least they're free of the shackles of the EU! (Even though they aren't, really.)

Quebec had a referendum to leave Canada in the 90's. It failed by about 1%. However, because of that, Quebec got a lot more negotiating power. They wanted to be more distinct from the other Canadian provinces, and got that (good luck traversing without any knowledge of French now). And now, in 2016, there's no hubub about Quebec wanting to leave Canada.

I agree with others that turnout was probably lower because WHO ACTUALLY EXPECTED THIS TO PASS?!?!?!? Also, some Leaver voters probably just wanted more negotiating power with the EU.

It's ridiculous that this passed, lol.

Well, it seems like Labour leader Corbyn's office deliberately sabotaged the Remain campaign. I guess the UK still has the Lib Dems, right?

I mean that's how real elections would do it. You keep voting 'til you get an actual majority (or you come to some sort of coalition agreement).

Referendums are so much different than regular voting.

While voting for a MP/PM/President is important, it's a vote for a representative to make decisions for you, and it's one of many representatives. In other words, there's plenty of safety nets in place no matter who the PM/President is.

Referendums aren't like that at all. People literally vote on a decision that should be relegated to the experts voted in by the public. The UK population probably didn't understand that.

I was thinking about them the other day. They disappeared into obscurity after Nick resigned to the point where I couldn't name you a single Lib Dem politician.

Well, they've made a move, I guess. Might as well. Opportunity knocks and all that. Also, he looks like a Jr. Farage.

@shindig: I haven't really paid attention to British politics since the heady days of Blair, Major and Brown, but the idea of British politicians campaigning for the EU in general elections is mind boggling.

@shindig: I get good vibes from Tim Farron, but he's having to build from a desperately small base.

7 have quit the shadow cabinet now so it looks like we're having two leadership elections this autumn.

This is a farce.

I'm sorry but that makes absolutely no sense to me. If the people shouldn't be trusted with complex issues, how on earth can anyone expect them to choose a politician who is qualified? How are they supposed to assess their credentials? In your example of voting on the assembly of a nuclear power plant: if one does not have the knowledge to properly vote on the construction of a power plant, how could you possibly expect that those same people will somehow pick the right person to construct the power plant?

Furthermore, following that logic, if people shouldn't be allowed to decide to leave the EU, is it not also logical that a country's people (not necessarily the UK) should never be asked whether to join the EU in the first place? Why would you trust them with the decision to enter, but not with the decision to leave?

You are supposed to choose leaders which excels at "picking the right person". Thats what leaders (politicians) do. Its exactly the same in a company lets say, the owners need to pick a leader (CEO) that they can trust with finding the right persons for the jobs of that company. Thats how its always done if its supposed to work at all.

In this case however its the leaders that has decided on a vote so if you dont respect the leaders choice to have a vote and you dont respect the public to make the vote what on earth will you have respect for?

And now, the Taiwanese TomoNews take on Brexit:

@aethelred: Finally someone is making sense of it all :D

@spacefish: wow

"We believe in democracy only when it goes our way"

I fully support Brexit, you people are all dicks. The EU has been terrible for Britain and every country within it.

Well, except Germany. Otherwise I'd broadly agree with you.

The Germans have done alright by it.

@shindig: Just wait until their referendum, which will be called "Gerxit"

@seamuspaxman: I'm Irish. Our motorways where funded by the EU. A lot of our industrial parks too. Similarly our schools and colleges and institutions of technology received funding towards their construction.

The financial crisis and the austerity measures put in place after by the EU wasnt the fault of the EU. It was mostly our own doing, our own politicians bailing out banks they decided to have a stake in. And by a property bubble that nobody would pay attention to.

Ireland would be much worse off without the EU.

Romania leaving would be the worst for the EU: Rexit.

And the Czech Republic leaving would sound like a breakfast cereal: Czexit.

The exchange rate for me is even worse now because of Brexit. Compared to last year, I am losing 30% on all withdrawals. (GBP > Yen)

It lowered a lot around December but now it's even worse, losing approximately 10 yen per pound since Brexit.

Departugal. I hope I never see such political turmoil in my lifetime again.

Wait, how did UK leaving the EU result in people suddenly being racist dicks?

@zevvion: It gave them a sense of justification, that "we" voted "you" out. There's a large undercurrent of Leave voters who voted based on racism as they see England as being under threat of EU nationals "taking jobs" and refugees who "are actually scroungers and ISIS"

I prefer 'Remainia?'

This just in: The Labour attempt to force out Jeremy Corbyn has been dubbed "Jexit." Ouch.

Edit: Another piece of news: Study of the petition for a second referendum has found 39,411 signatures from the Vatican City, which has a population of only 800.

That's real fucking dumb. They don't even know what they are voting for. This is why democracy is severely flawed. It just doesn't work properly, because more than half of the people are idiots, so doing what they want doesn't actually help in the grand scheme of things (not implying people who voted out are idiots).