The MMA discussion thread.

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liquiddragon

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#1  Edited By liquiddragon

I don't know if this thread has been tried before but I'd like to give it a shot. I'm a relatively new fan. I saw the Ronda Rousey vs. Holly Holm fight and was really impressed with Holly's skills and I started tuning in more and more. I've watched a lot of the UFC events since, as well as many classic fights. Still, I consider myself a novice to the scene and would love to read from more seasoned fans and as well as newer fans.

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Zevvion

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This has been done before, but it can be done again. You should either alter the title that this contains spoilers, or properly spoiler tag the actual spoilers. I'd prefer if you did the latter (so block out the method of winning and don't make it so obvious who won).

I've been watching MMA since Tito fought Ken for the first time, so about 15 years. I train BJJ twice-four times a week, kickboxing once a week and do MMA every now and then.

I'm Dutch. I wasn't happy with Germaine's performance at all. It was a pretty boring fight.

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cmblasko

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Not a great night, but I enjoyed the last 3 main card fights. Holm/de Randamie had a lot of drama going for it. Crazy that the ref didn't deduct a point, though. Would've been interesting to see what UFC would have done on a draw.

I hate decisions in MMA. So many times it seems like you might as well just toss a coin.

Aldo/Halloway was announced for UFC 212, looking forward to finally having a unified featherweight title again!

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Zevvion

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#4  Edited By Zevvion

@cmblasko: I've always disliked decisions and the most recent one that really stung was Diaz vs McGregor 2. Yes, McGregor won the 'competition' because he scored more points, but if the fight had been continued, he would have lost decisively. In such a fight, no one really wins if you call it quits because of time. Not to me anyway, I respect the sport but I love the fight more and if a fight is not won or lost by fighting then it shouldn't be 'given' to anyone.

They should just go for draws if time runs out. If you can't finish your opponent you didn't win the fight. If you get in draws too much you risk getting cut from the UFC. That's how I would like to see it work.

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Dislecsik

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#5  Edited By Dislecsik

@zevvion: Totally see where you're coming from but I really don't like this argument, you see it a lot, like "Diaz bros don't lose fights, they just run out of time", and I do see the logic honestly, they have incredible stamina and durability. At the end of the day, it's a sport - very close to real fighting but you do what you can to win, within the rules. It's not fair to say Conor would have lost if it was 6 rounds, he was pacing himself for 5 rounds max, and I know his stamina dipped a bit here and there, but if the fight was longer then he would have fought a different fight, and who knows how that would have went, maybe he'd get finished, maybe he'd get the decision still. Nate wasn't exactly fresh as a daisy at the end of that fight.

I get it though, of course finishes are usually more exciting and of course definitive, but if every decision was a classed as a draw, the sport would suffer, rankings would become a lot more stagnant, certain types of fighters like Cruz would basically lose all they had going for them. The whole 'legitimate sport vs real fighting' balance is a hard thing to get right.

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Zevvion

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@zevvion: It's not fair to say Conor would have lost if it was 6 rounds, he was pacing himself for 5 rounds max, and I know his stamina dipped a bit here and there, but if the fight was longer then he would have fought a different fight, and who know how thaw would have went, maybe he'd get finished, maybe he'd get the decision still.

That is a very strong argument, I don't dispute it. It is the difference between a sport and a fight. As I said, I respect it as a sport, but I am just more interested in warriors, not competitors. Not to say that Conor is not that, I just don't think saying he won has any sort of legitimacy outside of the competitive sport context. Which is what it is, I just wish it was different. I realize this probably doesn't come across as a coherent argument, but the warrior in me or anyone else has to recognize that that fight was only over because written rules said as such and no other reason.

It's not that I care about spectator excitement of a KO or stoppage, it's that I care about the heart and soul that goes into a fight more than the statistics and pre-determined rules on a point system.

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Dislecsik

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@zevvion: Yeah man, I hear you for sure. That's a huge part of my love for MMA too, just the sheer heart/determination/grit of these guys and girls can be inspiring, totally aside from the technical skill and using rule sets smartly (I don't mean grey-area cheating of course).

I should say Conor's one of my favourite fighters and personalities (almost don't like saying that, given how his fanbase can be), but I try to see it fairly and I don't have his back on everything he says or does. I feel like the Diaz II fight was where he proved he had heart after being doubted since their first fight, so I still see it from that point of view, both of these guys showed they were real warriors as you put it. Conor after the fight said to Nate, "You're a Mexican warrior brother".

I do like something about the idea of just, lets see who wins, regardless of rules, rounds, time etc. Something that just turns into a battle of will. But did you ever see the very early UFCs, I watched the first 10 or so relatively recently, and it's just this. Basically one endless round, no weight classes, no rules. But fighter safety aside, it just turned out kind of boring when the fight went on too long and both fighters are just gassed as fuck, and can barely raise their arms. Maybe with the level fighters are at today in the UFC though, this would be a totally different thing, and would actually be interesting. Not that I think you are advocating that, it just reminds me of it a bit.

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Zevvion

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@dislecsik: I do believe there should be rules in the interest of safety, and not to be 'that guy' but also in the interest of honor. Yes, I did watch those early UFC fights and that one dude who just locked a guy in place and then punched him in the balls for three minutes straight was not my idea of an honorable fight that was fought with the heart.

Rules are (mostly) good, I just don't like scoring. At all. Nothing about it appeals to me or what I want from this. The golden time was when Royce choked out guys that were literally twice his size. Technique, heart, fighting spirit. Royce is not even that good, he just had something no one was prepared for. I do think it would be different with the caliber of fighters today.

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cmblasko

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Yeah, I agree with a lot of what you are saying about scoring. In particular I will make a point about the Silva/Brunson decision. If you look at the stats, Brunson heavily out-struck Silva, something like 130 landed shots to 70. Silva probably ate between 5-10 uppercuts in the clinch that didn't seem to phase him at all. I've seen a lot of journalists point to that as a factor in scoring the fight for Brunson. But since those strikes weren't effective and didn't seem to do any damage, why should they be deciding factors in who won the fight? That is almost like arguing for MMA being more like point karate, where simply touching your opponent gets you points, which I don't like.

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liquiddragon

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What do you guys think of the WME takeover of the UFC? Are you concerned about the direction the company will take the sport towards?

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Zevvion

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@cmblasko: Yeah, I dislike that type of stuff. It completely disregards fighting spirit, which is insane in something you would call a fighting competition.

@liquiddragon They did it a while ago right? I haven't really noticed anything bad happen since then. I did hear some shady things about that acquisition, supposedly more of a move to force the Fertitta's out.

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@zevvion said:

@dislecsik: I do believe there should be rules in the interest of safety, and not to be 'that guy' but also in the interest of honor. Yes, I did watch those early UFC fights and that one dude who just locked a guy in place and then punched him in the balls for three minutes straight was not my idea of an honorable fight that was fought with the heart.

Rules are (mostly) good, I just don't like scoring. At all. Nothing about it appeals to me or what I want from this. The golden time was when Royce choked out guys that were literally twice his size. Technique, heart, fighting spirit. Royce is not even that good, he just had something no one was prepared for. I do think it would be different with the caliber of fighters today.

Got to disagree about the old Hackney vs Joe Son fight but mainly just because it was ultimate retribution as Joe Son was later convicted of gang rape and is generally found to be a trash person.

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ehbunner

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Scoring really wouldn't be a big deal if the judges weren't so incompetent all the time. Also the 10 point must system isn't really a great way to score MMA fights, though it should be noted that the rule changes made this year are at least optimistic with 10-9 rounds being reserved for close rounds and 10-8 rounds being more common. Only time will tell if this is enough but it's at least a step in the right direction.

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Zevvion

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@thepulver: I don't think the octagon is the proper place for justice.

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liquiddragon

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Holly Holm is appealing UFC 208 loss!

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cmblasko

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And GSP is back with UFC! Likely fighting Bisping in the fall.

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TakyonDG

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Glad to see this topic on GB! I spend a lot of time on the SA MMA threads and I gotta say its one of the better, funnier and best-thought out communities for the sport.

UFC 208 was a dumpster fire. I would have been mad if they put that card as a Fight Night but to have the gall to charge for it? Skipped! Silva is boring now. Jacare's fight was dope but pointless from a standings viewpoint. I want Jacare v. Romero II! The only fight on this card that was exciting AND had any relevance was Poirer's.

209 looks awesome though. Lot of good action on that card. The Koscheck Bellator card looks good too.

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BigBoss1911

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Hunkulese

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Not expecting much out of GSP. Yes, he's one of the greatest MMA fighters of all time, but he's kind of similar to how Floyd Mayweather ended his career. He was so much better than everyone, he took zero risks, jabbed people to death, and put everyone to sleep. GSP hasn't been in an interesting fight since his last fight with Penn. I guess Hendricks was interesting since he really should have lost that one. I doubt 4 years off is going to make him more exciting.

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Retris

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I still haven't gotten over how awful the refs were in UFC 208, standing up people when they were active on the ground and managing to decide a title fight by not doing their job. Holly Holm has all the reason to appeal for her loss since it should've been a draw.

For the scoring, I agree completely with @ehbunner. It's not that the scoring itself is bad, it's that UFC regularly employs judges who don't seem to understand the way scoring is supposed to work. I do have a fondness of old PRIDE rules; not so much for the soccer kicks for people on the ground but I loved the 10 minute first rounds and the fact that they allowed people to use proper attires since it was mixed martial arts. UFC still has strange rules like the elbow ban on the ground which I'll never understand.

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Zevvion

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@hunkulese: Perhaps. Or possibly more accurately: yeah, true. But given even the slightest chance to see more GSP in prime condition and fighting spirit, I will say hell fucking yeah.

What if GSP ends up fighting Conor in two years? Oh my...

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EricSmith

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Felder crunched the fuck outta Ricci's nose a la Rory vs Lawler.

Then he did the dumbass thing of a shit post fight interview saying "I'll fight whoever the UFC puts in front of me," like a goddamn chump.

This FN has been kinda junk so far. Todd Grisham is terrible, would rather have DC or Cruz in there in his place. You don't need a full time play by play anyway.

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overnow

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@retris: Holm can appeal the loss all she wants but she doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell at winning. I'm not a big fan of shots after the bell, especially when they are clearly some of the biggest shots the offending fighter lands, but unfortunately there is no actual rule against hitting your opponent after the bell. The bell is actually only an signal to the referee to call a stop to the action. Any strike that lands after the bell but prior to the ref stopping the round is technically still legal. It's why the have the 10 second warning. When you hear that the real pro refs immediately move into position to stop the fight and are seriously on top of that shit.

Big John has actually been talking about this on twitter a lot recently and he explains that the whole reason he sticks his arm right between the fighters is that he can visually tell if a shot is truly late. For him if his elbow is not fully straightened out when a punch goes over it then he lets it go. If it is straight he uses his judgement to determine if a warning, point deduction, or disqualification is warranted.

It's a bummer that poor referee skill clearly contributed to Holm's loss but if I was her I wouldn't even waste my time with an appeal, I'd just be campaigning like crazy to get an immediate rematch.

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EricSmith

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BLACK BEAST UP IN THIS HO!

Really good fucking performance by Lewis! He still really needs to work on his cardio, but with broken ribs or whatever, he still pounded the FUCK out of Browne. If Browne wasn't a wife beater, I'd complain about the late stoppage.

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liquiddragon

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damnnnnn

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EricSmith

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"How hurt to the body are you?"

"I just gotta do a number two."

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overnow

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Ouff. Yamasaki... dude.

Man Lewis is already terrifying. Could you imagine if he could up his cardio even a little?

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EricSmith

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@overnow: He says he is in the best shape of his life, but man, he looks like he climbed off the couch into the ring. That said, he has some huge power in those fists, and he is pretty spritely for a rotund dude. Hopefully with his time off he has some extra time to do some dieting.

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liquiddragon

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Pretty good JRE with Dominick Cruz

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liquiddragon

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#30  Edited By liquiddragon

I thought Yoel Romero was fighting Bisping but nope, GSP.

lol Idk who this person is but fucking Drew!

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deactivated-5a48049f850e3

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liquiddragon

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@bonelesszombi: lol, does this mean DC will be champ again and get all the hate directed towards his way?

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@liquiddragon: Jon Is still officially UFC champ but ya DC will be champ again Jon is such a waste of tallent

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Dizzyhippos

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@bonelesszombi: according to what I read, hes been stripped. There goes UFC's one big star that people feel good about.

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deactivated-5a48049f850e3

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@dizzyhippos: That's fake news haha, as of right now Jon still has the belt and as not been stripped util Dana or Ariel says he's been striped Jon is still champ.

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deactivated-5b85a38d6c493

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So the claim that it was because of a sexual enhancement pill the first time was probably bullshit? How long will he be suspended for this, 4 years? I was hoping to see him face Gustafsson one more time.

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soulcake

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Dude How big of a moron can you be in life to throw away all these chances it's baffling ! Thinking you can get away with taking steroids.......

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Zevvion

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#38  Edited By Zevvion

@boonsong said:

So the claim that it was because of a sexual enhancement pill the first time was probably bullshit?

That's not any more certain than a wild guess. You can/will absolutely flag for the type of pill he took, and we know fairly certain he took it. He could have done anabolic steroids on top of that, but there is no evidence of that.

@soulcake said:

Dude How big of a moron can you be in life to throw away all these chances it's baffling ! Thinking you can get away with taking steroids.......

I don't think it's that simple. The amount of pressure that was on him alone is enough to say none of us can really judge his decision if he did make the decision. You've never been in that position and you're not the same person. I think calling him a moron is a bit much. Not for the insult, I just don't think you necessarily have to be a moron to get to this point. I can see how this could all happen to an intelligent man as well.

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liquiddragon

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#39  Edited By liquiddragon

Nunes vs. Schechenko - Who do you guys want, who do you guys have? I'm really pulling for Valentina and think she can get it done! She's one my favs atm. I'm calling 4th round stoppage.

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cmblasko

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#40  Edited By cmblasko

I like both Nunes and Shevchenko a lot, but I want Nunes to win and establish a dominant title reign. Don't know if she will be able to deal with Valentina's superior striking, though.

@liquiddragon 4th round stoppage for Shevchenko is a good prediction.