The Wrestling Discussion Thread - AEW Dynamite This Wednesday

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Dizzyhippos

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#43401  Edited By Dizzyhippos

Both shows felt very very odd tonight. Not the way I would of Debut'ed butcher and the blade but hey this strong ass tag division keeps getting stronger.

Also come the fuck on NXT, the ref blatantly saw Finn hit a move on a foreign object, how is that not a DQ?

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Shiftygism

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#43402  Edited By Shiftygism

@dizzyhippos: Same reason a WWE official doesn't overturn an Asuka win after seeing evidence of mist on Charlotte....wrestling's dumb.

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Dizzyhippos

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I also forgot to mention that JR referred to Emi Sakura as "Oriental"... yikes. He caught himself right away and I assume he will apologize if anyone points it out but still... yikes.

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Marino

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#43404 Marino  Staff

JR makes me not want to watch AEW. He's just so bad on so many different levels. For example:

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Gundato

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#43405  Edited By Gundato

I have been fairly critical of jr for a while.

And as a contrast, go watch the dark with Dustin on commentary. He has the same flubs on move names and the like. But he owns up to it and plays the goofy old guy while deferring to Excal.

Jr just powers through and doesn't care.

And you see the same with the wrestlers. Jr doesn't care about ninety nine percent of the talent. Dustin had something to say about just about everybody and still poked fun at Chuckie T.

Dustin sucks on commentary, but he cares. Jr lost his edge and doesn't. The sooner his contract is up the better. Aew got the rub from him and can drop him in favor of someone like tazz

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Dizzyhippos

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#43406  Edited By Dizzyhippos

This new version of Jake Hager with 0 personality is the best form of Jake Hager.

I am listening to the Observer from last night, you can hear how pissed Bryan Alvarez is about the Mauro situation.

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Retris

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Personally I was done with JR after he kept on calling #Stronghearts Chinese (and nobody seemed to call him out on that, which is weird). I just really want Tazz in to replace him, as I really have dug both times he guested on AEW. Tazz vibes so well with Excalibur, he's good at giving details about the moves and they are genuinely funny together, he seemed to bring out the old PWG Excalibur out in those two times. I'm sure Tazz would go along with Excalibur marking out for the Falcon arrow.

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Gundato

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@retris: agreed. Tazz and Excal was amazing and they riffed off of each other spectacularly while still calling the match

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Marino

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#43409 Marino  Staff

@gundato said:

I have been fairly critical of jr for a while.

And as a contrast, go watch the dark with Dustin on commentary. He has the same flubs on move names and the like. But he owns up to it and plays the goofy old guy while deferring to Excal.

Jr just powers through and doesn't care.

It's actually a step worse than that. JR actively makes fun of Ex for knowing the names of moves. He's actually shitting on him for being knowledgable. It's like...

Ex: [excitedly calls the name of a move just done]

JR: You ever heard that word before, Tony?

Tony: Oh, I don't know, Jim.

JR: [repeats what Ex said but purposefully mispronounces it in a backwards attempt to make Ex look dumb]

Ex: Words mean things, JR.

[repeat every 3 minutes]

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Shindig

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He's got no passion for it any more.

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Dizzyhippos

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recroulette

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Hell of a ride EC3, hell of a ride

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Retris

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@recroulette: What... the... fuck. This wild trip we've been having for the last couple months or so just keeps on getting wilder.

Why is all this weird shit coming out now? Is it the extra eyes on wrestling or what the fuck? Seems like after the start of AEW Dynamite it's been like at least one bit of conspiracy theory, human trafficking, somebody losing their marbles or something every week.

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Shiftygism

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#43414  Edited By Shiftygism

EC3 needs to go to AEW more than anyone because that juiced up fucker looks exactly like a Street Fighter character come to life, Omega could oversee a cosplay career for the guy.

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Dizzyhippos

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@shiftygism: I could easily see EC3 with Wardlow and MJF

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Brian_

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Anyone check out that NJPW Collection app? All it is really is a gatcha app that lets you trade around jpegs of wrestlers, but I don't really mind spending zero dollars to stare at some wrestling jpegs for a few minutes a day, and seeing if anyone wants my double of a 1 star Shota Umino

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Dizzyhippos

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No Caption Provided

I dont know if its bad... but it ain't good.

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Shiftygism

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My boy Sheamus is back! Hope he gets one good last run and is healthy enough to face Lesnar at some point in 2020. Totally thought he silently retired.

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Dizzyhippos

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#43419  Edited By Dizzyhippos

So far AEW has announced Trent? vs Fenix, CD vs Pentagon, Bucks and Dustin vs Pround N Powerful and Sammy G, and Moxley vs Janela for tv this week... dude slow down. (please dont die Joey)

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Shiftygism

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Did AEW fans DDOS the network over Starrcade!? It went down at exactly 7pm eastern.

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Marino

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#43421 Marino  Staff
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Shiftygism

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@marino: Were you watching on pc by chance? The only person I've talked to that didn't get booted was watching directly from the website.

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#43423 Marino  Staff
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Shiftygism

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@marino: I'll be sure to check that next time something like this happens. Hopefully it won't though. Glad it went down during Starrcade and not one of the shows last weekend.

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Shiftygism

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Well shit, all of that trouble to watch the damn thing and they didn't even air the cage match.

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Dizzyhippos

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#43426  Edited By Dizzyhippos

@shiftygism: Sounds like the cage match sucked anyway. also apparently the network was on fire for some people.

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Dizzyhippos

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#43427  Edited By Dizzyhippos
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The opening to this is a mood.

This is 99% just a negotiation tactic so dont read into it, but Charlotte trademarked Ashley Fleir and "The Queen of Wrestling" and Andrade trademarked El Idolo and La Sombra.

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Gundato

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#43428  Edited By Gundato

@dizzyhippos: Was it Fleir or Flair?

And yeah. I don't see either leaving WWE and this is almost assuredly mostly negotiation. But I also wouldn't be surprised if they want to branch out a bit and build their personal brands similar to Xavier Woods and Asuka/Kana and the like.

Hell, I imagine a lot of the roster are starting to realize how smart Austin/Xavier is. Out on a pretty gnarly injury and still regularly promoted and in the public eye because of UUDD. Assuming New Day hasn't been disbanded by the time he gets back, he'll basically come back having barely missed a beat.

----

Also, I did a stupid and got sling so I can watch weekly Dynamite until HBO whatever the hell launches.

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devise22

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@dizzyhippos:Yeah that Being the "Elite" was pretty good this week. Not as good as the Halloween ep, which is an all time obviously.

@gundato Yeah it seems like it only makes sense now. With the reality of another brand allowing them to get more edge in negotiations as well as the impact as you mentioned talent can have branding themselves with a host of other side projects online, only makes sense to start trademarking more.

@marino That is an interesting take re: JR. I'm not going to pretend that I don't see what your mentioning, and I do think Tony's usual old wrestling fan getting back into enthusiasm routine helps make the three man team work better. That said I don't know if I'm that bothered by the JR stuff. It's challenging because we are at an era in wrestling we've really never been at before. Where what the different demo's tastes are for a wrestling product have become so singular that it's very hard to put on a wrestling show that caters to everyone. I think the older, old school skepticism JR brings can and often does help the commentary team.

I guess I just don't always get the vibe that he is making fun of Excalibur as much as the entire tone of conversation shifts to more of a yanking of the chain type situation? JR seems to be more trying to get potential older viewers to relate/have a laugh at some of the things that are odd to them re wrestling. Ergo moves from WWE that were finishers and named being done as regular moves with different names. Often Excalibur will go low tone and joke around with JR in these sequences. That said, I do think without Tony there to offset it far too much of the dialogue becomes about how out of touch JR is and at some point that starts to become a detriment to calling the match.

However I really don't feel like JR has seemed to out of place as apparently some do. He's not Kevin Kelly, obviously but because AEW has been far more focused on ring psychology than typically this talent has been used to, JR's expertise there has been great at adding layers to important matches.

I think my biggest criticism with JR has been how seriously he can at times take minor mistakes he makes. He'll call a lariat a clothesline and then correct himself in a passive aggressive way with a "whatever you wanna call it" type line. I think that gives off the vibe that Excalibur, and the fans he's meant to speak for/represent are so petty that they would care that someone calls it a clothesline instead of a lariat. The idea with a lot of the move calls in particular especially stuff with different names has always been that these have had these names in Japan for ages and in general most fans don't care what you call it because a lot of moves have 3-4 correct names. So at times it feels like JR is bracing for a backlash that isn't there. It's almost as if he needs to be sat down and told it's okay for a move to be called by multiple different names by different commentators on the same broadcast. Wrestling fans aren't that stupid haha.

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devise22

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Also since I'm in the mood, I'm probably as down on AEW as I've been since the launch. That isn't to say I'm like, unhappy with the product more so just I feel like there are absolutely some holes to the way they've structured some of the current product.

The last two weeks of Dynamite following the post Full Gear show have just lost so much momentum for a lot of talent. It's tough because you realize they aren't WWE, they don't produce nearly as much content and more than that they don't even do regular monthly PPV's. I was initially really refreshed by this but now that I've seen some of the effect that has on the progression of storylines, I'm a little more muted. As it stands we don't have an announced date on the next PPV, but I've heard rumors of February and March.

Although in general they have made some odd decisions. The crowd was red hot for that Mox/Omega feud that now seems to have died. After a great turn at the PPV, and then an amazing promo the week after with Jericho, MJF was relegated to weird pseudo BR with barely any entrances. While he did win the Dynamite Ring, even that was odd as it was far less about building him vs Cody than it was trying to give Hangman and MJF something to do. Speaking of Cody, I'm sure I"m not alone in thinking that stable debut to get him distracted from MJF until the next PPV in months time was lame. The commentary team didn't handle it well, Excalibur get excitedly saying the name as if we were all supposed to know who they were and even wrestling fans were like "what?"

I'm not really sold on the idea of Mox/Jericho this early, and honestly with the way they were booking him up until this point Mox seemed to not care about winning belts. If the whole thing just shifts to him being a babyface champion, it'll feel a little forced here. I'm fine with him dismantling the Inner Circle, that is a good direction for him to take, but not because he wants to be Champion. We'll see though JR was the one who said that may happen and Mox hasn't really given any indication other than he doesn't want Jericho to mess with him.

We've still had some solid matches still, obviously as well as some high points but in general it does feel a lot of the larger stories/reasons to pop/get invested have kind of slowed momentum entirely. It makes me wonder how much the company is going to use big story moments like that to help establish stars identities as opposed to building towards something bigger. Spears still comes out and works his gimmick around that chair even though he and Cody only had a one off. That approach can be jarring, especially considering how much work they did building everything up to that Full Gear PPV.

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Gundato

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@devise22:I definitely get the vibe that he takes a lot of the criticism personally and takes the course correction from the team as a personal insult.

But also, I kind of get the vibe that he just doesn't like his coworkers. Back in the day he was very much friends with a lot of the roster and his commentary definitely contributed a lot to Foley and Austin's meteoric rises (let alone the rest of the WWF roster). He is the hype man and he hyped the ever living fuck out of that roster.

Contrast that with NJPW, and now AEW, where he can't be bothered to learn their names. And I personally am pissed off that he might have hurt Kenny Omega in the western audience's eyes by repeatedly announcing his DoN (?) match against Pac as though Kenny were phoning it in with his twenty five knees to the head rather than making a desperation move to put someone down. With the right announcing that would have gone a long way to emphasizing "Kenny is struggling" and "He has a sadistic side" months earlier

I don't necessarily need someone as well versed as Excal (although I could do with less of the antagonism). But a lot of JR's announcing seems to actively be hurting the roster and storylines. Some of that is probably down to direction (allegedly he was kept intentionally in the dark on Blade Bone and Bunny). But that only goes so far.

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Stephen_Von_Cloud

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@devise22 said:

@marino That is an interesting take re: JR. I'm not going to pretend that I don't see what your mentioning, and I do think Tony's usual old wrestling fan getting back into enthusiasm routine helps make the three man team work better. That said I don't know if I'm that bothered by the JR stuff. It's challenging because we are at an era in wrestling we've really never been at before. Where what the different demo's tastes are for a wrestling product have become so singular that it's very hard to put on a wrestling show that caters to everyone. I think the older, old school skepticism JR brings can and often does help the commentary team.

I guess I just don't always get the vibe that he is making fun of Excalibur as much as the entire tone of conversation shifts to more of a yanking of the chain type situation? JR seems to be more trying to get potential older viewers to relate/have a laugh at some of the things that are odd to them re wrestling.

I think the JR criticisms are fine but he has his moments and I agree with your point here. I don't view that moment as more than JR being self aware he is not the hip new guy on the block. It works better if he doesn't try to be.

However, he can still do better. I mostly have enjoyed him but I can't say a different guy in there or just Tony wouldn't be better.

@devise22 said:

Speaking of Cody, I'm sure I"m not alone in thinking that stable debut to get him distracted from MJF until the next PPV in months time was lame. The commentary team didn't handle it well, Excalibur get excitedly saying the name as if we were all supposed to know who they were and even wrestling fans were like "what?"

We've still had some solid matches still, obviously as well as some high points but in general it does feel a lot of the larger stories/reasons to pop/get invested have kind of slowed momentum entirely. It makes me wonder how much the company is going to use big story moments like that to help establish stars identities as opposed to building towards something bigger. Spears still comes out and works his gimmick around that chair even though he and Cody only had a one off. That approach can be jarring, especially considering how much work they did building everything up to that Full Gear PPV.

That reveal was handled terribly. But kind of reminds me of the Wardlow thing too. It would help if they'd let the wrestlers speak for themselves a bit here, even if its brief.

I personally am super invested and into it but I do think you bring up good points about how they have mishandled some things. It seems to be me they are kind of figuring that stuff out and how to go about a long term build. They are just starting to work in a lot more promo time and stuff in the last few weeks. It is definitely weird because like you say some angles are just kind of lying there dormant, already past by, or being leaned on in the mean time in a forced way.

I think it'll come and I've really been enjoying it in the meantime. I see the criticisms but it's still the best wrestling available and I like the company and the direction it's growing in.

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redwing42

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I was on vacation without internet last week, so I'm still getting caught back up. One thing I'd like to mention is how much I like the rotating chair on Dark commentary. MJF was great and Spears was surprisingly good as well. Dustin was so bad it was actually fun, but you could never get by with that on a weekly basis. Given it was a one time thing, though, it was a nice change-up.

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Brian_

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Ugh... they took the time to thank Jim Cornette on NWA Power tonight. Seems like they're just going to play both sides on this thing.

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niko_of_death

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@brian_: I mean it makes sense given he went out of his way to tell his fans not to give up on it. My friend was dead set on never watching again when he got forced out, now he's slightly open to it. And its obvious that NWA wanted to keep him.

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Shiftygism

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@niko_of_death: He wasn't even forced out, he quit. It's a shame both sides couldn't issue an apology and keep on truckin', as both were at fault, but for a new product like this...in the age we live in, keeping him around would be damaging to the good thing they got going, especially considering Jim has no filter and his material, as this incident made clear, is stuck in the 80's...and when you have to go into as much context as he did in explaining a "joke", it's probably time to retire it. I think I'm more bummed he probably won't be involved with a second season of Dark Side of the Ring (if there is one), than losing him on Power because that's where he shined, retrospective commentary. Hopefully WWE gives him a shot down the road to do something like that for the Network, as Cornette's offenses are relatively tame compared to the likes of Austin, Hogan, and Hayes. That is, unless they're still heated over him slapping Santino.

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Brian_

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I just find this whole thing ridiculous. Cornette's seemingly constant inability to not say something stupid on commentary from week to week. The NWA claiming to condemn the things he said, while not editing the stuff out despite being taped weeks in advance until a mass of people complained about it. Cornette immediately walking away from it all because it seems that he either can't or won't dial it back a notch. The NWA thanking him, once again, only after a mass of people complained about him leaving. It just makes everyone involved look bad. I don't want to place my trust in anything either side says or does after this. How could I?

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DPEP56

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Anyone been keeping up with Dark? I really enjoyed the matches this week, and I think they've done a good job moving storylines along with it. It's a pretty good way to keep up with some of the storylines if you aren't checking AEW Twitter.

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Retris

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@dpep56: Yeah. In some ways I feel like Dark is a better show than Dynamite. It just feels like that show gives the wrestlers more characterisation than the main show. I've been trying not to over-analyze AEW, but the shows feel (to me) like Dynamite is the side-show and the Youtube shows are the main attraction, and that's the complete opposite how it should be.

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redwing42

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@dpep56: I think Dark is almost required viewing if you like AEW. They just can't get enough of the roster and stories in the 2 hours of Dynamite, and Dark helps fill in some of the gaps.

On a related note, I checked out Sammy Guevara's vlog after Dark, and it was pretty entertaining. I still am not a big fan of Marko Stunt, but this helped me appreciate him a bit more. I didn't realize that Guevara was actually recording every time he takes his phone to the ring, and it was fun to see some of that. I also learned that his cat wrestles also, so there's that.

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DPEP56

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@retris: If you look at the ratings for AEW and NXT, AEW is wayyy more popular among younger viewers, while NXT is being carried by people in the 50+ demo. I would assume this puts AEW in an weird position, considering younger audiences are much less likely to have cable, yet having a cable TV deal seems to be considered extremely important in US wrestling success (I personally don't know why). With Dark, BTE, Twitter, Vlogs, etc, I feel like this is their master plan to reach younger audiences. This is my super roundabout away to say it makes sense to me to put some great matches on Dark haha.

@redwing42 yeah I discovered Sammy's vlog last week. It's pretty entertaining. I think he's plays a good cocky heel, but the blog really showed to me that he will have some great face potential one day too.

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Roomrunner

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It just occurred to me, that AEW's way out of this Cody problem is to have someone eventually walk out/retire as the champ, and they bring a new title in.

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Dizzyhippos

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Both shows felt like weekly shows this week. Best segments on both for me were womens bits, Shida vs Statlander was really good but hurt by that Brandi segment. NXT needs to have Mia Yim wrestle in Timbs and sweatpants more its a good look for her character.

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Gundato

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Got Sling so could finally watch live. Had a blast

Most of the matches were good. CD vs Pentagon was kind of "eh" but I suspect that was because most of it was during the commercial. Same with Mox/Janella

I am starting to wonder if Butcher Bunnies, Dark Order, and Brandi's Whatever The Fuck might all be part of the same overall stable that we'll see emerge once Jericho and The Inner Circle are defeated. Brandi aside, the BTE crew (Elite proper, SCU, Best Friends, and Marty) line up numbers wise and it has a lot of potential to increase TV/youtube synergy when BTE inevitably gets revamped and AEW's initial burst starts to significantly lag. Seems a bit far out from the Jericho Cruise (where he will likely lose) but it wouldn't be the first awkward narrative in AEW.

And I actually really loved Cody's promo. Felt kind of meandering with a lot of asides ,but I think that worked. From a purely kayfabe standpoint it shows how confused and messed up his mind is right now. And it almost let him channel some BTE energy, particularly with his comments about his friends abandoning him and having no idea what his wife is doing.

And Jericho will always be amazing. And I really loved the Marty tease at the end.

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#43446 Marino  Staff

@roomrunner: There's a ton of ways to get out of it. They could organically have him perform so well that the fans demand it in some way. They could have him eventually turn heel and as EVP give himself a shot. He could put his career on the line to get it back.

etc etc etc

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Milkman

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Hated that the great Statlander/Shida match was immediately overshadowed by this terrible Brandi Rhodes stuff.

Opening match was a pitch perfect PWG send up match right down to the point where you ask yourself if it was one too many kick outs and then it just keeps going and becomes great again.

Both shows felt kind of on auto pilot this week. Kushida vs Cameron Grimes was a standout from NXT but most of the show seemed like set up for the last two shows of the year. Looks like both shows are setting up the December 18th show to be a kind of season finale.

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Keith Lee should hold every championship in existence.

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Brian_

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Do people not like the Brandi/Kong stuff? I've been kind of enjoying it in a "Wrestling is dumb and I like it" sort of way. Kind of tapping into some of the Lucha Underground vibes. Maybe it's just me though.