What Happened This Week?!

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Hailinel

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#51  Edited By Hailinel

@euler_riemann_zeta said:

@turambar: You're right, but I guess I'm the kind of person that subconsciously always keeps that "what if" in mind whenever I think of someone. It's kind of sad really, but especially as I respect someone involved in this, I would like some closure (I know, it has nothing to do with me). But outside of my personal feelings, it probably should be left to the relevant parties to work it out themselves.

I think what's important now is we all focus on remaining civil in discussing the events of the past week. The moderators were on high alert and shut down any thread on the topic of Zoe Quinn for most of the past week, and if any worthwhile discussion is to be had, we should maintain a level of decency. Either something did or didn't happen. If it did happen, that's shitty for one reason, if it didn't, it's shitty another reason. I'm just glad to see that a conversation is being allowed to foster at this point.

That all being said, what's bothered me the most this past week is the way in general that any attempt to discuss the topic, at least until recently, has been met with a seemingly iron-fisted resistance from multiple corners. The Total Biscuit link above is a very good discussion of this. Emotions are raw, there's no doubt about it, but there are issues tangentially related to the initial drama that could and probably should have light shed on them. I say this with no intent to judge the character of any particular person or people, but the events of the past week have definitely led to some questions popping up in my mind. Questions that have not yet had a chance to form to the point where I feel I could ask them with eloquence, but certainly, this week has left me thinking about things.

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Euler_Riemann_Zeta

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@branthog: Oh, I don't mean that I honestly accept the accusations at face value. "that which can be posited without evidence can be rejected without evidence" and all that jazz. However, there is a sad part of me that always focuses on the negative parts of people, whether or not those parts actually exist. I don't act on those feelings (Oh god I would be a complete asshole if I did) or let it color what I legitimately believe, but they are there nevertheless.

Man, I can't imagine what would motivate people to behave the way they have so far in some circles. I even saw that someone on twitter acted really nasty towards Patrick without any provocation. It is all just so disappointing.

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jaqen_hghar

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The thing is, while it started as something that's none of internets business, it became something that is. In the beginning it was all personal stuff, and the conspiracy stuff was just speculation and has proven to be largely unfounded.

But when everything about the case is stamped out on more or less every site and forum across the internet, making discussing it impossible, while articles about just as private stuff has been made in the past about other people in the industry... that's just not fine. Just look at the stuff written about Max Temkin not that long ago. It had nothing to do with gaming, yet there where articles about something that as far as I know boiled down to "he says, she says" where he probably was the person being wronged. Now there are no articles about this and it was a lot more of "he has proof, she doesn't deny anything" AND it had something to do with games and game journalist. Yet no one wrote about it, and in fact tried to make it all disappear.

This is what I hope is being talked about and looked into eventually, after all of this personal not-important stuff blows over. Because I don't like that kind of hypocrisy. Haven't listened to the "Bombin' the A.M." yet (got so many podcasts to catch up on) but it sounds like they at least talk around the thing. That's a start at least.
Sadly this has made me lose respect for a few indie devs and journalists, something I really wish hadn't happened.

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SweeneyTodd

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I wouldn't even bother posting to this thread, it will probably be removed in minutes.

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Jellybones

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The fervor with which the internet rages about supposed "corruption" in the gaming press will never cease to astound me. As if, at the end of the day, the amount of coverage or the specific number attached to the product review of a digital toy actually impacts our lives in any way. It's as if no one has any perspective whatsoever.

I don't blame the press and dev community for their reaction to the harassment/threats/hacking of Zoe and anyone defending her private life, or the blatant misogyny at its core. This is a woman that 80% of that particular den of toxicity already hated for daring to be a woman encroaching on their territory, making games that aren't game-y enough for them, and so they were more than happy to latch on to the notion that she would prostitute herself just to have her game mentioned.

The reason it's being "censored" is because it's her personal life, it's no one's business, and it doesn't deserve to be spread around like tabloid smut.

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paradigm87

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#56  Edited By paradigm87

@sweeneytodd: You're probably right lol. I'm stuck on baby duty with the newborn tonight anyway so I thought I might as well throw my two cents in. At least everyone has remained really civil for the most part in this thread which is great :)

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Strife777

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#57  Edited By Strife777

This week was just another example that proper mature discussion and debate is a rare sight these days. It also showed again that both sides are entirely imperfect and no matter how high and mighty some act, most are just being plain dicks.

In short, the internet is being fucking bummer.

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me3639

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#58  Edited By me3639

@71ranchero said:

I am so sick of the entire shit show. Over 30 years playing video games and I have never been so down on what used to be a fun hobby.

We are in the few and totally agree. The generation of "do as i say" and "dont say that" has brought our country to a level of a spit tail. Congrats.

Also, freedom of spee....Oh yea, not here or anywhere lately. Except from your hosts see "retards".

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AdequatelyPrepared

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Every single time I consider commenting on what happened, I type it into the box, stare at it for a while, and then sigh and delete everything. I'm just happy that the indie devs I actually care about all kept their hands clean of this whole mess for the most part. In the past, I have agreed with some of the things that Fish has decided to be pissed/angry about. However, his behavior in this matter was inexcusable. But no one, absolutely no one, deserves to have done to them what Fish had happen to him (the whole hacking thing).

Edit: I don't like TotalBiscuit all that much, comes off as a bit pretentious for me, but his take on the whole matter was the most level-headed thing I had read in this whole shitshow. The fact that he was attacked for what he wrote is just crappy.

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geirr

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I'm going to guess people overreacted to something on the internet.

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octaslash

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#61  Edited By octaslash

At one point this week, if you even mentioned anything nice about certain women in the games industry on Twitter, a massive group of cartoon (with cartoon avatars) misogynists and assholes would harass you. You don't see this level of disgusting, hateful shit in a TMZ comment section. I have little doubt that nasty hacking business was real as well given the astounding level of vitriol towards the victims. I don't give a fuck if someone's private life affects someone else's book report on a toy, they still deserve their privacy.

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SaturdayNightSpecials

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All the sci-fi stories where human civilization is destroyed by nuclear war seem more quaint and naive with each passing year of the Internet's existence.

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TheManWithNoPlan

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#63  Edited By TheManWithNoPlan

This whole thing seems incredibly difficult to talk around, but the people in this thread have done surprisingly well so far. I've been oblivious to any news on the subject since it started and just kind of absorbed the information all at once after some googling (to my detriment). I don't really have much to say on the subject other than we're all fallible human beings and this stuff isn't completely beyond anybody. That said it's kind of getting scary where our Internet culture is going in regards to the reaction towards anybody near this subject.

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tomtomthepirate

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My take from this is sadly that video game journalists aren't really journalists, at least not in the traditional sense. Information pieces posted here and other sites read like colorful opinion pieces on Vice more so than any other industry would tolerate. They want to be taken seriously but they also want as much responsibility as a professional youtuber. It becomes pretty obvious why so many in the industry would react the way they have when you realize they're all a big group of close, personal friends. Getting far too close to be objective about anything. Why is Zoe Quinn sitting at a bar with Adam Sessler watching this shit unfold and having him tweet about it? Because (even if he's not currently working as a journalist) these people have no idea how to be responsible enough to separate professional life with their personal life. They're all entertainers now. Some of them make the games, some of them make funny videos playing the games, some of them want you to read an article about the cool game their friend made. You don't see this kind of personal drama coming from the people in this industry that act like professionals.

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JasonR86

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All this is telling me is that not enough people are working. If they are, their jobs aren't hard enough.

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Sterling

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I was also unaware of any of this. And now that I am, I am just super bummed out. I really don't have much faith left in humanity anymore.

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joshwent

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#68  Edited By joshwent

Just chiming in to thank the Mods for letting this thread live. (Whether it's intentional or not.)

Seeing obscure negative tweets and scraps of news from prominent folks (Alex) is incredibly frustrating, and the calm discourse here helped shed light on what the hell actually happened.

Thanks.

___

Edit: Well damn. I knew locking this thread was inevitable, despite it being almost entirely devoid of negative accusations or insults, but it'[s a bummer to see it actually happening considering the fruitful discourse that began here.

It's pretty disconcerting when a topic discussed peacefully in a non-inflammatory way is banned entirely from the site because it may involve some less than glowing impressions of a person who is friends with a person who works here. Especially when there's no specific policy on this site to back it up.

This is an uncomfortable grey area that at least should be better defined.

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octaslash

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My take from this is sadly that video game journalists aren't really journalists, at least not in the traditional sense. Information pieces posted here and other sites read like colorful opinion pieces on Vice more so than any other industry would tolerate. They want to be taken seriously but they also want as much responsibility as a professional youtuber. It becomes pretty obvious why so many in the industry would react the way they have when you realize they're all a big group of close, personal friends. Getting far too close to be objective about anything. Why is Zoe Quinn sitting at a bar with Adam Sessler watching this shit unfold and having him tweet about it? Because (even if he's not currently working as a journalist) these people have no idea how to be responsible enough to separate professional life with their personal life. They're all entertainers now. Some of them make the games, some of them make funny videos playing the games, some of them want you to read an article about the cool game their friend made. You don't see this kind of personal drama coming from the people in this industry that act like professionals.

That isn't the reason you don't see this kind of drama elsewhere. The real reason you're even aware of this kind of drama is because Zoe is an outspoken women in the games industry that pissed off a bunch of manbabies because they thought she was raining of the video games' parade.

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Crembaw

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#70  Edited By Crembaw

@sterling said:

I was also unaware of any of this. And now that I am, I am just super bummed out. I really don't have much faith left in humanity anymore.

It is a huge bummer, both on the side of now knowing things I didn't and having witnessed some of the most awful efforts from multiple sides to paint the 'others' as vicious monsters. Multiple factions have been pushing to control the narrative in some pretty nasty ways rather than letting the people actually involved solve what is, at its most basic level, an entirely personal issue that we have no say in. I'm bummed that certain people did what they did, but they in no way deserved to be the focus of this much negativity and vitriol.

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Clonedzero

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I have only seen tidbits of it. some sort of sex scandel? I dunno!

The mods have been going nuts with it lately. Its frustrating when people talk about things you apparently "can't talk about"

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koolaid

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The reason that you don't talk about this is because it really is none of our business. It's a private, intimate matter that was throw into the public court unwillingly. To shut down these kinds of threads isn't censorship, it's common human decency. If anything, this last week has shown that "the internet" is severely lacking in that. I suggest that if you don't know a lot about it, just leave it alone.

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ViciousBearMauling

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Everyone in this thread is dancing on some thin fucking ice really well. I have to compliment you guys.

It's a bunch of crap that isn't any of internet's business, but some people decided to make it the internet's business by opening their big mouths. There is no point in us knowing about people's personal garbage, but since it's been put out there, it puts ammunition in the hands of the people that already dislike those involved. This has been awful on all fronts, and I feel like giving my personal opinion on the subject wouldn't help, so I'll just not talk about it anymore. I encourage more people to take that position as well.

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nophilip

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@manhattan_project: The most disturbing part of the reaction I saw to TotalBiscuit's take was Adam Saltsman (creator of Canabalt) threatening TB with legal action to prevent him from reviewing any of his future work. That's a dark, dark path to go down.

The thing that frustrates me about the industry's reaction to this whole clusterfuck (press and developers alike) is how everyone feels like it's okay to generalize and stereotype huge sections of people along with the ones who are acting out. (For the record, I believe that all the actions that have been taken against Zoe Quinn, Phil Fish, and everyone else caught up in this stuff is horrific and unconscionable.) It's a problem when gamers stereotype women in a sexist way and say horrible things about them, but suddenly when they're doing things we don't like it's okay to act the same way towards them? This solves nothing and just makes the people engaging in it look like hypocrites. I've lost respect for a lot of people this week that have been engaging in this sort of behavior.

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deactivated-629fb02f57a5a

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This week I learned what just might be the dumbest acronym I've ever seen. Other than that, it seems people tend to go out of their way to ruin any chance of a proper discourse, and that is always sad.

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tomtomthepirate

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@octaslash:

Because there aren't any feminists in any other medium that people could be critical of / horrible to. Sounds legit.

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octaslash

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@octaslash:

Because there aren't any feminists in any other medium that people could be critical of / horrible to. Sounds legit.

Yes, there are many mediums where outspoken woman are constantly harassed and shamed.

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71Ranchero

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@brodehouse: Bravo. I have never given one out before but here is a gold star. Its a scratch and sniff.

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Branthog

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The fervor with which the internet rages about supposed "corruption" in the gaming press will never cease to astound me. As if, at the end of the day, the amount of coverage or the specific number attached to the product review of a digital toy actually impacts our lives in any way. It's as if no one has any perspective whatsoever.

I don't blame the press and dev community for their reaction to the harassment/threats/hacking of Zoe and anyone defending her private life, or the blatant misogyny at its core. This is a woman that 80% of that particular den of toxicity already hated for daring to be a woman encroaching on their territory, making games that aren't game-y enough for them, and so they were more than happy to latch on to the notion that she would prostitute herself just to have her game mentioned.

The reason it's being "censored" is because it's her personal life, it's no one's business, and it doesn't deserve to be spread around like tabloid smut.

I think it is rather harmful to rational adult discussion to dismiss ethical violations in the press or game industry simply because what they cover are "games". The same goes for implying that anyone who is interested in stories of ethical breaches are only pretending to care about that, because they are secret misogynists. I agree with you that these accusations are baseless and should have been disregarded and the persons accused should be considered innocent and left alone, but that doesn't justify the sort of nasty label-bombing of people to shut them up. (I'm not accusing you of this, despite the words used in your post; just commenting on the frequency I've seen this happening in general this week).

That's the kind unproductive tactic everyone on "both sides" of SJW issues are always pulling and calling each other out for. They're all guilty of the same disgusting conversation tactics and bullying and accomplishing nothing for it.

My interest is in the vast disconnect between how all these people are reacting to the game creator being accused of something by an anonymous tumblr person this week, but accepted anonymous tumblr accusations as proof of guilt for another game creator just a month ago. The same people. Right down to the same game sites. This week? Defenders of the unjustly accused victims of internet trolling! Last month? Get the pitch forks and destroy this person, because they're clearly guilty -- an anonymous tumblr account said so.

Why does this matter to me? Because the inconsistency -- the hypocrisy -- signals other agendas at hand. If the principal of the matter is that people should not become internet fodder and have their lives ruined over anonymous tumblr accusations, then everyone should have treated both game creators the same, correct?

I don't think the anonymous libel is newsworthy, at all. No credible evidence and no credible source. I think the reaction of the gaming industry to it held up to the mirror of only a month ago is.

At one point this week, if you even mentioned anything nice about certain women in the games industry on Twitter, a massive group of cartoon (with cartoon avatars) misogynists and assholes would harass you. You don't see this level of disgusting, hateful shit in a TMZ comment section. I have little doubt that nasty hacking business was real as well given the astounding level of vitriol towards the victims. I don't give a fuck if someone's private life affects someone else's book report on a toy, they still deserve their privacy.

Unfortunately, that behavior isn't confined to just them. Anyone who doesn't perfectly adhere to the accepted line of discussion or response is likely to be labeled any number of awful things, like the words you used above to described that group, and harassed by large groups. One might call it bullying, too.

My only comment on this situation had been "I think it is irresponsible of people -- especially journalists and professionals in the game industry -- to take anonymous tumblr accusations seriously." The response to my statement has almost universally been favorable and agreed to. In almost this same situation with last month's accused game developer, I made the exact same statement and was attacked to the point that I shut down my twitter account. I was called a misogynist ignorant asshole who needed to be re-educated and sent countless links and statistics and blah blah blah. But all I said was the same thing I am saying in this situation. And it is just as applicable and fair.

See, the truth of the whole nasty situation is that almost everyone seems to have their own set of agendas and they all trump people's principles. Of course, like in politics, people on all sides are accusing each other of the same vile crap while each are behaving in similarly crappy ways and both dismiss anyone pointing it out with "yeah, but it's okay if we do it, because the other people are....blah blah justification blah".

@branthog: Oh, I don't mean that I honestly accept the accusations at face value. "that which can be posited without evidence can be rejected without evidence" and all that jazz. However, there is a sad part of me that always focuses on the negative parts of people, whether or not those parts actually exist. I don't act on those feelings (Oh god I would be a complete asshole if I did) or let it color what I legitimately believe, but they are there nevertheless.

Man, I can't imagine what would motivate people to behave the way they have so far in some circles. I even saw that someone on twitter acted really nasty towards Patrick without any provocation. It is all just so disappointing.

That's why I think the reaction from all sides has been gross in both incidents. One of the things I deeply believe in is that a person is innocent until proven otherwise. I want to be afforded the same benefit. Even if I don't always like you or agree with you (and in both of these cases, I do like the people -- I have supported their projects and financially supported both of them), I will presume your innocence until given considerable real evidence to the contrary.

But with accusations made this week and last month -- in light of how the modern world and media works -- once the accusations get some road under them, the damage is done. I don't want to use the words to describe what each person (last month and this month) will forever be known for in the minds and google searches of all humanity, but we all know the labels that will be applied to them. Simply because some anonymous twit did some muck-stirring. Some things are just so reviled by society that once your name has been remotely associated with them (even by an anonymous tumblr account), everyone will -- as you mention -- question if you're really guilty of it. Forever. Even just a tiny bit in the back of their brain.

That's why the responses to both stories (and not the stories themselves) have managed to enrage me so much. I wouldn't want this sort of shit to happen to me or anyone I know and it isn't right that it has happened to these two people (and it isn't right that the people playing the victims along with the accused this time were the same people attacking the other person last month).

All the sci-fi stories where human civilization is destroyed by nuclear war seem more quaint and naive with each passing year of the Internet's existence.

I've been online since 1988 and my entire career is founded upon a networked planet. I want for nothing more than a massive global electromagnetic pulse to wipe out all forms of modern communications and networking for a couple centuries. I might begrudgingly settle for a pre-internet-population-boom 1990s, with IRC, usenet, and enthusiast forums for a number of topics and no facebook, twitter, youtube, TMZ, drudgereport, etc, though.

Meh.

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tikimorpher

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Man, this Frog Fractions 2 week-long reveal was nuts.

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rkofan87

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octaslash

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#83  Edited By octaslash

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deactivated-63f899c29358e

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My understanding of this whole thing basically boils down to a couple of things...

1. Something happened.

2. Somebody said something.

3. A lot of people went crazy and a lot of other people went crazy because of the first groups frenzy.

Whether it is all true or not, I don't know, hell I don't think I care. It has already done enough damage. If it is a lie then some people are being terrible pieces of shit, and if it is all true then a couple of people royally fucked up while in a position where they should have known better.

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Alick

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this seems like a bunch of bullshit. I didnt really care about fish going crazy on twitter but bashing totalbuscuit when he didnt completely agree with quinn is pretty fucking shitty.

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sweep

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#88 sweep  Moderator

OK, we tried to let people talk around this stuff but obviously that's pretty precarious, and we've already come out and said that threads about this kind of gossip about the personal lives of developers is not something we're interested in hosting on this site. At this point a lot of sensitive, personal material has been leaked out onto the internet, exaggerated and discussed at length, and there are several friends of the site who have suffered an extensive invasion of privacy that we want absolutely no part of.

This thread, like all the others, is being locked. Any other "gossip" threads will also be removed. Please respect the privacy of the staff and their friends.

Thanks.