I really don’t understand why people have problems with this. It’s just clothes and it’s not like these clothes would disappear simply because a skirt wouldn’t be labeled for a specific gender. If anything it would encourage people to experiment even more with style when we lose these expectations on gender performance in vein of what clothes a person wears.
Why don't we just change the majority of, if not all clothes to unisex?
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hey there, i certainly identify as "progressive" but people are all shaped differently. its not reducing someone to their breasts to consider the shape of their body when adorning it with clothing. wear anything that fits though for sure who cares this is adulthood.
jeans/pants in general need a rework, women dont have any pockets and im stuck sitting with her purse when we drive!
"Most male birds, such as robins or chaffinches, are at their brightest and most colourful at the start of spring. They hope their fresh new plumage will attract a female. Many female birds are less colourful - they don’t want to attract attention when sitting on the nest."
... not sure that quote works like i wanted it to... basically looking good is good, looking neutral is fine but you won't stand out, it has nothing to do with clothing choice and everything to do with nature.
@cikame: Well I'd like to think humans have evolved past whatever strict notions birds and other animals are going by.
I'd be all for having all clothes labeled unisex honestly. Seems like a logical progression to me, and in any case it's probably going to happen sooner or later.
@harbinlights: Why would you want to erase gender lines entirely when men and women are fundamentally different on so many levels? Fitted clothes are always going to look and fit better than unisex clothes meant to encompass a broad range of body shapes and sizes. Different waist lines, different cuts in regards to genital regions, different neck lines.. I mean I just don't see a practical reason why we would want to conform fashion to a single line? You can have diverse clothing tailored for men and vice versa that blur the accepted social norms but are still cut and fit with a specific gender in mind.
I mean, I wear women's clothes and they fit me just fine?
"Most male birds, such as robins or chaffinches, are at their brightest and most colourful at the start of spring. They hope their fresh new plumage will attract a female. Many female birds are less colourful - they don’t want to attract attention when sitting on the nest."
... not sure that quote works like i wanted it to... basically looking good is good, looking neutral is fine but you won't stand out, it has nothing to do with clothing choice and everything to do with nature.
So when I wear women's jeans, am I sticking it to nature?
This whole thing just seems like such a non problem. This is the very definition of a niche.
Would taking the sign off the male and female sections of a department store make things easier or harder to find? For the most part I can look at a wall and see,"Okay that's the women's section. I don't need to go there." Whereas another person, male or female might see that same wall and think the opposite. If a person can and wants to wear clothes for the gender opposite of themselves, they totally can.
Honestly it's stuff like this that make people not take the left seriously.
"Once we get through talking about basic human rights for two consenting adults, let's get onto this clothes situation."
Can't we just pick our battles and see if there is even a battlefield to fight on?
I mean, there's a lot of reasons why the OP is ludicrous, but one thing that stodd out is - bras aren't intended to shield women from male sexual desire at all. If anything, the opposite is true as they tend to sell themselves on their sexiness. Bizarre thing to say.
@harbinlights: well I mean as long as they fit YOU fine then sure I guess the entire world should switch over
Nah, I like things the way they are now thanks. Men's clothing in the men's section, women's in the women's, and children's in the children's.
There can be "too much" of anything and for these type of stances it just seems too liberal and naive to me. Gender is real and the different clothing types comes down to society/culture. If Macys or Amazon just had a clothing section and took gender out of it, people would still think "WTF" if they see a dude wearing a sundress and it would make it harder for people to find the clothes they want since the vast majority of guys don't want to wear women clothing.
Being "assigned" a gender seems silly too. I think that really only applies to babies born with both sexual organs and the parent's decide which one to keep. Other than that, I don't think someone can choose their gender, just like that fake black chick who was really white couldn't choose her race or someone can't choose to be a fox. Also, if a guy has huge breasts and hips then he must have a medical condition or needs to go on a diet and workout.
I really don’t understand why people have problems with this. It’s just clothes and it’s not like these clothes would disappear simply because a skirt wouldn’t be labeled for a specific gender. If anything it would encourage people to experiment even more with style when we lose these expectations on gender performance in vein of what clothes a person wears.
Hear hear!
"Most male birds, such as robins or chaffinches, are at their brightest and most colourful at the start of spring. They hope their fresh new plumage will attract a female. Many female birds are less colourful - they don’t want to attract attention when sitting on the nest."
... not sure that quote works like i wanted it to... basically looking good is good, looking neutral is fine but you won't stand out, it has nothing to do with clothing choice and everything to do with nature.
So when I wear women's jeans, am I sticking it to nature?
Do they look good?
I'm an extremely liberal guy, but this kind of thing does not help the left. It's nonsense.
There can be "too much" of anything and for these type of stances it just seems too liberal and naive to me.
Are these "liberal" or "leftist" positions, though?
Personally, I am far too alienated by feminism, social justice, leftism, and liberalism, to really identify with any of them. These are my personal opinions more than anything. Leftists, like the people at ResetERA, treat me like total garbage for being an anime otaku. So I don't know that I really identify with those movements. If anything, they've made it abundantly clear that I love moe way too much to be a feminist or a liberal.
@harbinlights: No, that's not why all women wear bras. Though, it is certainly one of the major reasons. You see, a woman's breasts will be different from a man's breast, in that they aren't simply lumps of fat that develop due to a lack of activity and too much carbs. They serve a purpose that is necessary to our survival as a species. But practicality doesn't even begin to approach how different they are in make-up, even an AA-Cup actually has more tissue than a man who you'd ascribe a DD size. This is because the breast is spread in a different way. It's not just something that protrudes outwards, a significant portion of the female breast can lie in the underarm area. A woman with an AA-Cup SHOULD wear a bra, to prevent sagging in future years. Furthermore, the breast size can change due to many, many factors such as pregnancy, or even disease, say cancer as one example. Ontop of that, even a small breast will bounce about when performing rigorous exercise, which can be uncomfortable. There's also the chafing of nipples to be considered, as a plethora of types of cloth can literally rub them the wrong way. The female nipple is far more sensitive than the male, which I hope I don't need to explain.
Thus, by wearing a bra, you're practically future-proofing your breasts, and they're also more comfortable in a vast amount of situations. As for uni-sex bras? That would never work because they need to be designed differently from men and women due how differently they develop on the body, not to mention consideration for the previously mentioned sensitivity. That don't mean that there shouldn't be bras for men. They already exist. And you sure as shit shouldn't shame someone for wearing one. This, too, should go without saying. But popularizing this type of undergarment has nothing to do with how females wears them outside of a passing resemblance.
The only piece of clothing that would fit a uni-sex standard in my mind, would be panties or shorts, which when worn loose, is healthy both for the male and female genders. But some people prefer wearing a tight fit, which is far more unhealthy for men than it is women.
Anywho, that's way more writing than I thought I'd be doing on the subject of bras. That said, my biggest objection to the notion of uni-sex clothing becoming the standard hasn't got to do with health issues, nor practical ones. It's that you've got no right to tell people they shouldn't be allowed to be unique. That's a precious, enough thing already in this world; let's not all strive to look the exact same as one another. Allow people to express themselves through their preferred style of clothes. There's nothing wrong with being feminine or masculine, just like there's nothing wrong with being anything inbetween, no matter who you are.
And finally, we sure as heck got us bigger issues we oughta' tackle first before deciding we ought to all be wearing the exact same grey jump-suits.
in that they aren't simply lumps of fat
Uh, they pretty well are. Women's tendency towards larger chests on average is called estrogenic fat distribution. Where estrogen tends to, but not always, push fat to be distributed moreso on the chest, thighs, and buttocks.
@harbinlights: You're taking a very, select few words out of context here. You can make anything sound bad by doing so. I went on to say that they serve a purpose that is necessary for our survival as a species; in the very same sentence. Hence the "not simply lumps of fat." How on earth was that not clear to you?
And now I'm regretting taking you seriously long enough to write that reply.
people would still think "WTF" if they see a dude wearing a sundress
And that is a facet of society I would like to see crushed with the viciousness.
@do_the_manta_ray said:
They serve a purpose that is necessary to our survival as a species.
I went on to say that they serve a purpose that is necessary for our survival as a species; in the very same sentence.
Actually, men can lactate.
But practicality doesn't even begin to approach how different they are in make-up, even an AA-Cup actually has more tissue than a man who you'd ascribe a DD size. This is because the breast is spread in a different way. It's not just something that protrudes outwards, a significant portion of the female breast can lie in the underarm area. A woman with an AA-Cup SHOULD wear a bra, to prevent sagging in future years.
[citation needed]
Also, all of these statements you made to binarize men and women, are statements that apply to many men, and also in terms of many women, don't apply. Breasts come in all different sizes and shapes. And are correlated with what gender you are, not determined.
Also, what is wrong with sagging? Why is sagging bad for women and not men?
Ontop of that, even a small breast will bounce about when performing rigorous exercise, which can be uncomfortable.
Men's breasts can bounce, too!
I'm very liberal and this thread is hilarious.
We have so many clothing options now, dude. This isn't an issue.
I do think that people should be unique and all go for their own style. And that's exactly what I think that gendering clothing inhibits.Anywho, that's way more writing than I thought I'd be doing on the subject of bras. That said, my biggest objection to the notion of uni-sex clothing becoming the standard hasn't got to do with health issues, nor practical ones. It's that you've got no right to tell people they shouldn't be allowed to be unique. That's a precious, enough thing already in this world; let's not all strive to look the exact same as one another. Allow people to express themselves through their preferred style of clothes. There's nothing wrong with being feminine or masculine, just like there's nothing wrong with being anything inbetween, no matter who you are.
@harbinlights: While it's true that women in the West are socialized to wear bras, it is flat out wrong to say that women wear them simply so men won't be aroused by them. Many women wear them for support. Some for fashion. Some for a variety of intersecting reasons.
There have been a handful of attempts at gender-neutral fashion in recent years. Almost all of it looks drab and expressionless; at least it isn't ridiculous like other types of fashion. Finding those collections in stores might be difficult, but you can certainly look for them online. H&M and Zara are two companies that have done this.
I think the people suggesting that the OP wants everyone wearing the same thing are misinterpreting what he's saying. As I read it, Harbin is suggesting only that we remove the gendered labels from clothes, not remove any actual clothing options from people.
@harbinlights: While it's true that women in the West are socialized to wear bras, it is flat out wrong to say that women wear them simply so men won't be aroused by them. Many women wear them for support. Some for fashion. Some for a variety of intersecting reasons.
I don't think that's the reason. I think it is just an excuse I have heard very often. So I have given it a rebuttal. I've made this topic before on the crux that bras are for support, and that some women don't need them, and some men do. And I was met with a lot of goalpost shifting and the same sort of "you don't get it, that's not what bras are for", just like in this thread. Last time I made this sort of thread, and went for a support angle, I got a bunch of "women's chests are different from men's chests. Men's chests aren't sexual." responses. Went for a different angle and rebuttal this time.
Anyway, I'm not saying that we should all wear a limited, narrow style. I'm saying that we should, if anything, have more styles for people of all genders, binary or not.
What I'm promoting, rather, is a system where men wearing frilly dresses is not considered crossdressing. And men don't get funny looks when buying such clothes for themselves.
I backed up and read this and now I think this is just a troll account.
@onemanarmyy: I'm assuming OP was trying to point out that race is nothing but a social construct. But it is obviously nonetheless a very real thing in our society.
@harbinlights: You don't think...what, exactly, is the reason? Because I said that there are several reasons, and some women may wear them for one reason, or a number of reasons. As you say, everyone is different. But suggesting that wearing them for any reason one gives is "just an excuse" means that you're actively choosing to ignore the reasons that some women wear bras. Ignoring what women have to say to make a point about why women do or don't wear bras is definitely a weird way to go about this.
@boonsong: I'm not in the know on this subject, but isn't that still an on going debate? Certain genetic sicknesses are far more prevalent in certain regions compared to other regions. like Sickle cell anemia primarily shows up in people with african ancestry. It just seems strange for Harbin to talk about race a bunch in the same post and then say race is not even a thing. Even as you state, if it turns out that it's just a social construct, it's still very much part of human life.
@onemanarmyy: Here's an interesting article I just found.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2018/04/race-genetics-science-africa/
I think a lot of this conversation is interesting, and people (rightly) don't want to make it sound like they're talking about ideas that even resemble eugenics. DNA research shows that different geographical groups of people are more (or less) similar to other groups. This research also goes to show that Africa is actually far more genetically diverse than most people think.
On top of all that, there is also an ongoing conversation to be had about how we perceive race, and how that affects society, laws, cultures, politics, and--most importantly--how it affects people.
I think the people suggesting that the OP wants everyone wearing the same thing are misinterpreting what he's saying. As I read it, Harbin is suggesting only that we remove the gendered labels from clothes, not remove any actual clothing options from people.
Yes! That's exactly what I'm saying!
And considering that race doesn't exist
It doesn't. More on that here.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Racialism
Also, I personally think an alarming number of people today believe in race realism, and, if not that, some form of "gender realism".
I think the people suggesting that the OP wants everyone wearing the same thing are misinterpreting what he's saying. As I read it, Harbin is suggesting only that we remove the gendered labels from clothes, not remove any actual clothing options from people.
Yes! That's exactly what I'm saying!
In this case though you don't actually change anything you just make it more of a hassle?
I think the people suggesting that the OP wants everyone wearing the same thing are misinterpreting what he's saying. As I read it, Harbin is suggesting only that we remove the gendered labels from clothes, not remove any actual clothing options from people.
Yes! That's exactly what I'm saying!
In this case though you don't actually change anything you just make it more of a hassle?
Labeling clothing as "for women" discourages men from wearing it, though.
Do you think it is harder to find toys at Target, because of no gender labels?
@frostyryan: Yeah, that really is something.
I backed up and read this and now I think this is just a troll account.
Why?
@bladeofcreation:Neat. Will check that out.
It makes sense why there's such a huge genetic variety between africans. Humans have lived there for a long time (60,000 years ago). That's a lot of time for DNA to end up in different configurations.
@onemanarmyy: Those differences are not why the concept of race was created though. It has little to do with biology and genetics. It was to label and suppress certain groups of people by those in power.
I think the people suggesting that the OP wants everyone wearing the same thing are misinterpreting what he's saying. As I read it, Harbin is suggesting only that we remove the gendered labels from clothes, not remove any actual clothing options from people.
Yes! That's exactly what I'm saying!
In this case though you don't actually change anything you just make it more of a hassle?
Labeling clothing as "for women" discourages men from wearing it, though.
Do you think it is harder to find toys at Target, because of no gender labels?
People misusing a useful tool is not a compelling reason to just throw the tool away entirely.
Especially when the outcome is that those people just go on to find a new vector of attack and leave you sitting there bereft of said tool.
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