You should know about what's happening in Ferguson.

There were a few witnesses. And disregarding their claims is just as irresponsible as disregarding the officer's.

Hopefully the peaceful protestors can distance. Themselves from the rioters.

Regardless of how anyone views this, we stand to gain more as a society by actually demanding better of police both in general and concerning their long-standing bias against certain demographics in the US by using this as a jumping off point for that rather than an incidental punishment of a few errant dissidents among the largely peaceful protesters.

A big problem comes from a lack of communication and public relations. The cops come off as heavy handed and over-reactive but if they are reacting to violence with force why not come out and say so? Describe what's happening, explain why the press have limited access, explain why air space has been limited and restricted. Otherwise it all builds a case against the police.

We don't have all the answers about the situation in Ferguson. The police say there are riots, the residents claim only protests. A press on the ground would easily answer that question. When they are more questions going unfulfilled usually those preventing that tend to carry some fault.

@finaldasa: There's been a ton of press on the ground the last few days reporting on Twitter and there have been way, way more reporting of the police acting out, taking cameras and throwing tear gas than there has been about any kind of rioting.

@milkman: I've certainly seen a lot of the "on the ground" stuff but I'm still apprehensive about Youtube and Twitter reports. There's already been misinformation spread around and treated as actual facts. I guess I'd rather have a lot of reporters, a lot more video, and a lot more first hand accounts and interviews rather than a Twitter feed.

1992 LA Riots redux?

@bacongames said:

Here Here!

The 1992 LA riots were very different by the way. The Rodney King case went to trial and the officers who beat King were acquitted from any wrongdoing. The case seemed like an open and shut case to most thanks to the now infamous video footage of the beating. So when the officers were getting off with no punishment the community were angered and decided to riot. The riots in such a large city quickly expanded and soon people were taking advantage of the situation to riot themselves.

Ferguson isn't LA and the situations are very different.

It's understandable why there's such a desire for brotherhood/camaraderie among officers in the force, because it's obviously imperative that you're able to trust not only your partner, but all of your law enforcement peers in some measure.

What that means, however, is that the department heads also have to understand that it's virtually impossible to believe any statement they release. The "protect one's own" mentality is inherent to everything they do.

Had you seen your friend violently gunned down, how encouraged would you be to enter the headquarters of the organization that was defending the individual who shot him? Now what if you'd grown up knowing that organization was statistically biased against you? Now what if that organization was actively censoring every form of media that could potentially put eyes on your personal safety?

Yes that can, but nearly all will never be convicted even with overwhelming evidence. It is that simple, they will not because the level of abuse needed for conviction is right about at a lynching. Shooting an unarmed man goes to trail for sure, and then they are all let off. In the US, a law officer can be charged, but they simply cannot be convicted for anything less than a lynching.

First of all, I'm a Marine. It doesn't matter what job you have in the Marine Corps, you are a rifleman and get deployed as such. Secondly, I was a sergeant, designated marksman, and fireteam leader in an amphibious assault vehicle unit and we were attached to 1st Battalion 8th Marines, an infantry battalion. Before becoming a fireteam leader, and designated marksman, I was a radio operator, and the only difference between me and an infantryman was that I had an extra 20 lbs strapped to my back that was essentially a target any time I went on a mission.

Word of advice, make sure you know what you are talking about, and who you are talking to before making assumptions.

Also, I am sure every single WWI and WWII veteran appreciates you asserting that they were "cooks and truck drivers"

If I recall correctly, there was more than one cause. The shooting and death Latasha Harlins by a Korean market owner direct some of the riots at Korean owned businesses as well. I believe the community felt her punishment was too lenient.

The issue at hand is that in recent years men of color have been killed by white cops under questionable circumstances. In the majority of these cases there is little if any punishment. This happens far to often. Yes black men may commit more crimes but by continuing to treat all black men like criminals does not help. The protest are for people who are feed up with this rascim.

You're aware that the police department has actually turned away witnesses, right? They weren't interested in taking statements from witnesses. That's usually a good sign.

They are now going to give their statements to the FBI.

It's worth noting that his friend that was part of the incident actually did give his statement to the FBI and St. Louis county prosecutor yesterday, and two other witnesses at the scene are set to give similar interviews.

Of note in their current statements is that all three witnesses suggest that Brown was never inside the police vehicle as the police department says, and one woman described their confrontation as "like an arm wrestling match" with only the window down. One shot was fired while the officer was in the car, and then the officer exited the vehicle and shot at Brown as he and Johnson ran away.

Oddly enough, as people have mentioned a few times, both the police and witness accounts don't dispute that Brown and Johnson were fleeing when Brown was shot away from the vehicle, and there's no explanation of why the police believe that was justified.

Semper Fi

I don't agree with you but I respect your service and your experience. (Edit- 0622 Oohrah)

Not going to weigh in on the topic at hand because I'm honestly not that informed. I don't think any of us really are. Too many people want to pass judgement on a 30 second video clip or a sound byte which has been spun so many times in different ways.

I don't think anyone really knows who the bad guys are here. Time will tell who are the prejudiced assholes and who are the heroes. I'll bet my life savings there are a mixture on both sides.

Apparently the Highway Patrol is taking over security and promising a different approach. As of right now there's no cops on the scene. Looks like they're finally getting someone in charge who doesn't have their head jammed firmly up their backsides. Hopefully this means things will be getting better.

It's an absolutely fucked situation. There is no excuse for using military grade weaponry against protesters, even if there is some rioting. Arresting media, shutting down air traffic? Why?

Police should not have military grade stuff, Period. That's what the military is there for. If something happens that's so bad to require a military response, we have the most powerful military in the world. Call them.

It's just completely unacceptable.

@retodd1889: There is more than 30 seconds of footage. There are multiple live streams and journalist reports. And multiple time stamped corroborating stories and photos.

Do the US have an equivalent to the UK's Independent Police Complaint's Committee? Not that it's got a chance of improving police trust but making them accountable might help.

That's nice to hear.

Interesting, I guess I've been hearing conflicting reports (go figure, right?). We can only hope this will lead to serious legal action, and not sputter out on the doorstep of a stubborn institution.

I cant wait for a few years from now when the sociology reports come out from this. Don't judge me, it's the only good to come of this horrid situation

Why shouldn't police have military grade stuff? "Military grade" usually just means built by the lowest bidder. There is a lot of hyperbole and hand wringing going on about the gear used by the police. (Internet wide, not specifically here) Personally I'm ok with anything that ends this "fucked situation" (we agree on that) quicker. The constitution basically forbids federal troops from enforcing state law and restoring order. (Or at least it's SUPPOSED to: Posse Comitatus Act) Why should we care if a police officer has a surplus M4 or they have a big fancy truck the DOD no longer needs? Does it matter if an officer's sidearm or the can of tear gas came from the military? I don't understand this viewpoint. Help me get this because I feel like I'm missing something. (Seriously- not sarcastically)

I don't doubt it man, that was an oversimplification on my part. The larger point here is that whatever exists (footage, streams, reports) is a TINY fraction of what’s actually gone on. This is a big complex event involving thousands of people. I'd need to see a LOT more proof before I'd condone turning my hometown into a war zone. Lets also not confuse rioting and looting with civil disobedience and peaceful protest marches. Are the police out of line in some cases? I'm sure they are but to an extent to justify what’s going on now...... I'm not so sure, I’ll even go so far as to say I doubt it.

I'm mostly convinced protesting is a pastime taken up by a well-meaning majority bolstered by people looking for something to do. In this day and age.

I tried to follow the Ferguson stuff and ... it feels a lot like Ukraine. I don't like what either side is doing and it's hard to even start trying to ... gah.

If you live in America and you are tired of the excessive militarization of police, make a stink about it. The ACLU has been pushing against this for a while now, and there are numerous examples both emotional and more statistical of the problems the militarization of peace officers is having.

This sentiment is weird to me, though. It ignores the fact that both jobs put their lives in danger voluntarily, and as a result there's considerable overlap between them in many key areas.

It's not what you have, it's how you use it. I feel the debate has shifted dramatically from what matters - conduct, accountability, leadership - toward arguing about equipment and gear. An MRAP is just a big truck, not a tank, I drove them for the Canadian military and they aren't all that impressive other than being bullet/bomb resistant. They don't take down buildings like the latter does, they also get considerably better mileage than 2gallons/mile. I can see a precedent for police operating them, especially in a country with so many firearms of all makes and calibers.

America has a very, very long way before something like the Rabaa massacre in Egypt (where around 600 people died) occurs on its own soil, but pundits and commentators are acting like this is it. It's obscuring the real problem here, which is that leadership has got out of hand and made poor decisions, illegal even, at several key levels in the force.

As some have pointed out in this thread already, the Ferguson police has been removed from the area and replaced by highway patrol officers. And it seems the tone of the protests have changed dramatically.

@retodd1889: It's an issue when its hard to tell a policeman from a soldier. A policeman should not be using an M4 in a riot situation. How is that going to improve the problem? It's not. It's unnecessary and completely overkill. Regardless of where it came from, its stuff they should not be using at all.

I wonder why this particular situation blew up so much more than others did. Cops kill people all the time. Just a couple weeks ago there was that story going around about the cop that choked an unarmed guy to death.

@hunter5024: Probably a real life example of the straw that broke the camels back.

@hunter5024: The main difference in this case is the lack of answers. Police have refused to give much detail in the shooting, not just the name of the police officer, but also the circumstances that led to the shooting (Why was Brown stopped? What caused the situation to escalate? How many times was Brown shot?). The case you're talking about in NYC was horrific, to be sure, but answers were given (begrudgingly).

I appreciate your response. Of course this is a complex event. But at a certain point, these mini-events become a tapestry that tells a narrative. And while it may not be the whole story, it's a pretty thorough one.

And as to the other point in m quote, militarization of the police force psychologically (on our part and on theirs, and this has been studied) turns them from peace-keeping members of the community into oppressive symbols of authority. "You better listen or else. You're beneath me, so on and so forth." It's also been shown that if a police force has access to things, they are much more compelled to use them. See: the proliferation of SWAT forces being used in more and more situations and existing in smaller and more rural areas, compared to when they were brought out in the past.

Last straw after a number of similar events in the news this month (seriously, there have been a lot lately that have been televised) in addition to people standing up for themselves and protesting. People demonize protests and riots (and with good reason in most instances) but it's also a really effective way for an oppressed group to draw attention from a society that doesn't care or has a low attention span for such things.

@hunter5024: Because the St. Louis PD decided to escalate things when they should have tried to defuse the situation. You don't show up to a peaceful protest in full body-armor, with tanks and assault rifles, unless you're looking for a fight.

Scene in Times Square right now:

@spaceinsomniac:

"Police have been known to lie about this sort of thing" is about as far from useful as I could imagine. This guy isn't the entire American police force. He's one office. He should be treated as such. You yourself say that it's prejudice to treat blacks based on the bad apples just as much as to do the same with police and you're right.

And to be fair, if someone reached for my gun, and then sprinted away, I'd potentially feel the need to put an end to that person's life. I have no idea where he's running to. For all I know his car could be across the street or he could be running to cover to pull a gun out of his waistband or any number of things. If the kid really did reach for the gun, he made a massive mistake and it likely led to his death. Reaching for a gun is intent to kill as far as I'm concerned, and you can't do that lightly.

Also remember that you can't possibly put yourself in the shoes of those involved unless you've been in a similar situation. When your fight or flight switches to fight, you fucking fight. It's a biological imperative to stay alive. That instinct is not considering anyone other than the entity it is working on. It doesn't give two shits if the kid lives or dies it just cares that it doesn't die. It's something I don't think people really understand about situations like this. They aren't often premeditated murders like some people tend to pain them as. It's just a manifestation of adrenaline and fight or flight.

@rongalaxy: When those crowds contain trouble makers who want to stir up trouble, that's totally reasonable. Those measures that you mentioned exist to deal with exactly this situation. They are designed to disperse the crowd so that there isn't a mass of people when some asshole throws a molotov (one of the reprehensible things happening in the area because of the situation). It's non-lethal force and it's actually probably best that the police force use things like rubber bullets to disperse those crowds before they get innocent people REALLY hurt.

And, the police have been allowing peaceful protest. But there has to be a limit and there has to be an understanding of the complete picture. You left out the looting and vandalism and violence coming from a minority of the people protesting.

I'm sorry, but I think you're just plain wrong. There's more to the situation and while it's probably true the police could back down a bit, I'd rather have them be a bit heavy handed than see them have to wait until the situation gets irreparably out of hand. As far as I know, no major injuries have been caused by police other than to Brown. It's certainly possible that something has developed since last I checked but that was the reporting at the time of my last check up.

FBI has been involved for a while, actually. In fact there was a dumbass tweet about some journalist trying to get clicks off of the situation (gross) who said he interviewed the "primary witness" (Brown's friend who was with him at the time of the shooting) before the police department did. Which was technically true, I think probably because they were giving the kid to the FBI to handle. So there are higher powers getting involved, have no doubt about that.

I'm going to leave most of what you say alone, but I do agree with one thing you brought up. I do believe all officers should be required to have a personal recording device on their person and running when on duty. It wouldn't be difficult, and would allow for far more answers. Had their been a police recording of the events that happened there would be a lot less confusion about what really happened. It'd benefit the right people every time.

But then everyone would bitch about being watched by the police. Because Americans never want what is good for America, just what seems best in that short sweet moment they are in at that particular point in time. Insert eye roll.

Also majority of America is for gun control, etc, so enough with how America is gun crazy. Almost every statement you made was a generalization about a demographic based on a few bad apples and as has been pointed out, that's pretty much the same damn thing as racism. The only thing is it's cool to hate cops and support minorities, so it's not seen as the same.

Well in that case why don't you move somewhere without people who work a job that offers little real world job experience, relatively lacking pay for any but the most ambitious, and next to no appreciation from those they serve? Seriously, a couple of bad apples and people think that cops are a bunch of shitheads who should all be thrown in the ocean, and that everyone would be better off for it. Go to somewhere like Russia or any of the former Soviet countries. You'll be begging for even a shitty American officer within a week after you have to bribe every SOB that pulls you over for not actually speeding or kicks your head in for saying the wrong thing about the wrong people.

Most cops are at the very least decent people. Many of them serve selflessly and at great cost to themselves and their loved ones, and give greatly to their communities on a variety of levels.

EDIT: this is my millionth time trying to post this so I'm probably lagging behind by like day or two.

SOLIDARITY SELFIES

There might be hope for this country yet, that's great to see Police being Police instead of a militarized unit once more.

Honestly I'm amazed and grateful for the turn around. Maybe now the people of Ferguson can get justice, and relationships between community and gov't can be repaired.

I don't know the truth of the entire situation so I'm not commenting on it as a whole, but the burden of proof is on the victim (via a court-appointed prosecutor). "Innocent until proven guilty."

Problem is a lot of minorities aren't treated that way and Brown's death might have been a part of that.

@jarmahead: id say the assumption in america alot of the time is "what did that thug black kid do this time to make the cop shoot him?"

It's amazing how much things have improved since the people that were supposed to serve and protect the community were replaced.

A video of what's happening in Times Square right now.

Hundreds of people marching through the street chanting "Hands up, don't shoot" which eventually turns into a massive sit in and then a bunch of arrests.

http://new.livestream.com/JamesFromTheInternet/events/3277196

I'm really hoping that things can turn around here and everyone can learn and reflect on their actions. Right now feels like an important time. The protesters seem levelheaded, the looters will always be assholes, and the police need to get their fucking shit together and be professional. I feel sorry for the officers that have to deal with this very delicate situation but at some point they need to be good examples and show real accountability.

The police in this are real people (from boring Missouri) that are probably scared out of their minds. If there were some decked out monster vehicles, automatic rifles, and Helghast armor just lying around I'd use them too. You're OP with all that power and force. They probably shouldn't have used any of it. I love that I'm seeing at least a few examples of them being real people and not some malevolent force that needs to dominate the situation.

They probably know what happened at this point but need to wait for the initial outrage to die down. When it does, and the police make an honest-to-goodness statement, I hope we all try to be better than the situation.

I think if you take the racial portion of that out you are fairly close to the truth.

If it comes down to knee jerk reactions of surface credibility the cop wins every time, and I think most of America would also ask "what did that white trash trailer park kid do this time to make the cop shoot him?"

I'm not so sure that's wrong.

We live in a big country and I know it's not the same everywhere but I live in the eastern mid-west. The western most counties of what the federal government considers Appalachia are within a short drive.Oxy-contin and now heroin hit the rural communities of the rust belt hard and a lot of those areas are just one step removed from the suburbs around most major cities. I live in the 'burbs near a major city that had some racial issues and rioting while I went to college downtown. If some addict breaks into my house hes more likely to physically and racially resemble Kid Rock than Tupac.

If i flip on the news tomorrow morning and see that while I was writing this post 3 miles away in a trailer park a cop put 8 rounds into an 18 year old Kid Rock after the kid allegedly tried to take his gun I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt to the cop. Even if the cop isn't the same race as Kid Rock. Even if Jesse Pinkman vouches for Kid Rock.

-Does this make me prejudiced against white people?

-Does this make the cop or the police force prejudiced?

- Does this justify 4 nights of rioting and looting?

I'm going to say "no" on the first question, "probably not but I'm not qualified to pass judgement/ haven't seen sufficient evidence" on the second and "Hell no" on the third. I like to think of myself as a reasonable person and I also like to think that the average American is reasonable as well. Let me know if you disagree.

If you leave the racial part in I still think it's fairly close to the truth. You shouldn't take the racial part out of racial profiling to see if it's acceptable profiling.

Especially considering that black people are stopped by police more than white people even if they were doing nothing wrong, black people are arrested for crimes at a higher rate than white individuals even for crimes that white people are doing at the same/higher rate, and to top it off most Americans have a higher bias against people of color. Even minorities distrust minorities. It's a pretty deep-seated issue and it's naive to assume race has nothing to do with it.