Your thoughts on the Second Amendment

@mandude said:

I don't know anyone that's ever been saved with a gun, but I do know quite a lot of people who've been shot (and killed) with a gun, so I don't really understand the guns save people mentality.

Back in Éire, even at the height of IRA activity, I never knew anyone that owned a gun, nor anyone that had ever been shot with one, so I also don't understand the outlaws will find a way, regardless mentality.

I see your doubt. If I can produce a video that shows a weapon saving a life with you change your mind?

The second amendment has its place, but it should continuously changed in order to adapt to modern society and its needs. Guns should be strictly controlled, but not banned altogether.

@Spuirrel said:

Guns are fucking disgusting and letting them be bought by anyone is the worst idea I've ever heard. People who support them are terrible and every argument for them is flawed.

solid, infallible logic here.

@LD50 said:

@LD50 said:

@Animasta said:

@LD50 said:

Oh christ. The United States Constitution says, you fuckwits, "To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;"

We, U.S. Citizens are Required to have a militia.

let me tell you all about this book called the bible and how we should follow everything it says 100%

go on

thought so

Lol big man.

@AlexW00d said:

@LD50 said:

@LD50 said:

@Animasta said:

@LD50 said:

Oh christ. The United States Constitution says, you fuckwits, "To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;"

We, U.S. Citizens are Required to have a militia.

let me tell you all about this book called the bible and how we should follow everything it says 100%

go on

thought so

Lol big man.

I'm only right here bro. perhaps you can provide elucidation?

@LD50 said:

@mandude said:

I don't know anyone that's ever been saved with a gun, but I do know quite a lot of people who've been shot (and killed) with a gun, so I don't really understand the guns save people mentality.

Back in Éire, even at the height of IRA activity, I never knew anyone that owned a gun, nor anyone that had ever been shot with one, so I also don't understand the outlaws will find a way, regardless mentality.

I see your doubt. If I can produce a video that shows a weapon saving a life with you change your mind?

Hard to say. I can see the usually see the merit in either argument, but you wouldn't be able to completely change my mind unless you had statistics that said lives saved by guns > lives ended by guns.

I feel (and am) much safer from guns in my home country than in America, so naturally it will be harder for me to disagree with the mentality that produced that safer environment, despite whatever other factors the situation is dependent on.

I have no problem with guns. I have problems with people who get on power trips when they hold guns.

I think that if someone wants to own a couple hunting rifles or something like that, then that's fine. But I mean single shot guns designed for shooting deer, not assault rifles or anything crazy like that. Anything that was designed to shoot people probably shouldn't be something that any random person can get a hold of.

@mandude A smart comment. I'm curious what country you call your own? You're all the way right. How would you know how to be here, unless you are here. It's really not that bad, and carrying a gun is not that far removed from our ancestors. Ours, I guess meaning mine for the last few hundred years, and yours since when 1799 ish? I take it you're from Ireland. You're telling me guns are dangerous? I mean no disrespect, but honestly, I get a lot of my fight from my Irish heritage. What the fuck are you talking about?

The Founding Fathers didn't anticipate the invention of semi-automatic assault rifles or sub-machine guns when they wrote the constitution. Fans of the Second Amendment seem to forget the other amendments. People have to the right to protect themselves and their property but to what end. Violence only brings more violence. I know that some people will not like this opinion. Gun fanatics make as much sense as the people that promote pro-life, also favor the death penalty.

@LD50 said:

@mandude A smart comment. I'm curious what country you call your own? You're all the way right. How would you know how to be here, unless you are here. It's really not that bad, and carrying a gun is not that far removed from our ancestors. Ours, I guess meaning mine for the last few hundred years, and yours since when 1799 ish? I take it you're from Ireland. You're telling me guns are dangerous? I mean no disrespect, but honestly, I get a lot of my fight from my Irish heritage. What the fuck are you talking about?

Why become so rude all of a sudden? And what makes you think you got 'fight' from your Irish heritage? You got shit all from it. I'm from Ireland and I know it's a hell of a lot safer here than it is in America when it comes to gun crime. And of course guns are dangerous. Do you even need to be told that?

I think you should be required to be educated on how to use a gun before you are allowed to buy one, I don't think we should allow people with mental illnesses, a history of violence, or a history of crime to be allowed to purchase guns, I think the bigger the firepower the more regulation it should have, but I don't think that we should take away the right for the average person to get one. Outlawing guns works in a place like England where it's a not so big island that you can only enter by regulated spots on a boat or plane, but if we outlawed guns in America they wouldn't just go away, just look at the drug wars. They'd come in from Mexico and other countries, we would spend millions of dollars a year trying to keep them out. People would still get guns if they wanted them, so I don't really see what good outlawing them would do. It would just take away our citizens teeth, and make several legitimate hobbys illegal.

I say if the Americans don't want their government to take their guns away from them then let 'em keep the damn things. Just leave them at home if you find yourself visiting Canada.

Hey we tried banning Alcohol....that didn't go well.

We tried banning other drugs....that's not working.

We're going to ban firearms....that one will work for sure. How exactly are we to take away people's guns? They have guns, I doubt they'll just hand them over.

@RainbowCarnage: That canister attached to the gun reminds me of the Patriot from Metal Gear Solid 3.

@Zandatsu said:

@LD50 said:

@mandude A smart comment. I'm curious what country you call your own? You're all the way right. How would you know how to be here, unless you are here. It's really not that bad, and carrying a gun is not that far removed from our ancestors. Ours, I guess meaning mine for the last few hundred years, and yours since when 1799 ish? I take it you're from Ireland. You're telling me guns are dangerous? I mean no disrespect, but honestly, I get a lot of my fight from my Irish heritage. What the fuck are you talking about?

Why become so rude all of a sudden? And what makes you think you got 'fight' from your Irish heritage? You got shit all from it. I'm from Ireland and I know it's a hell of a lot safer here than it is in America when it comes to gun crime. And of course guns are dangerous. Do you even need to be told that?

You'll have to explain to me where I'm rude. I won't even comment on the Irish thing, unless you press me.

SOBEREDIT: I was rude. I got drunk and really trollish.

Guns don't kill people Bullets kill people.

Some one had to put that bullet in the gun, and ether

1. Did a very poor job of counting when they were done at the range.
2. Left it loaded when they were done.
3. or Fired it off Intentionally.

Ether way, our gun statistics are about as bad as Europe's knife statistics.

Let the people keep their guns, but make the assault weapons illegal as fuck, so they can only have hunting rifles and slow weapons. Problem solved.

Maybe we as humans should take all of the guns and bullets in the world and drop it in middle of the deepest part of the oceans.

Keep telling me I'm going to do what you tell me to do.

EDIT: I was really hammered at this point.

@LD50 said:

@mandude A smart comment. I'm curious what country you call your own? You're all the way right. How would you know how to be here, unless you are here. It's really not that bad, and carrying a gun is not that far removed from our ancestors. Ours, I guess meaning mine for the last few hundred years, and yours since when 1799 ish? I take it you're from Ireland. You're telling me guns are dangerous? I mean no disrespect, but honestly, I get a lot of my fight from my Irish heritage. What the fuck are you talking about?

I'd consider Ireland my home country, but I've lived in America for a total of 3 years throughout different parts of my life. From experience, I can say that I knew 3 people who have been shot and killed, nearly everyone I know owns a gun (or more) and I know one ex-convict who is around guns all the time (simply by virtue of the fact that they're everywhere). My instincts, and statistics would both tell me that this isn't a safe environment for me to be in. I also don't think my ancestors were all too fond of guns as you think they were. Violence in Ireland is also not as you would think it is. It's very non-lethal, and is mostly in the name of fun (depending on where you go). Among the more violent crowds in Ireland, a gun would be seen as cowardly so the sentiment is not even nearly the same.

I'm not sure how relevant any of this is, because I'm not exactly sure what point it was you were trying to make.

Let the people keep their guns, but make the assault weapons illegal as fuck, so they can only have hunting rifles and slow weapons. Problem solved.

People have a right to have weapons.

@Spoonman671:

I advocate for better education over restriction. Or at least before restriction. Spend the money actually trying to make people smarter before enforcing the gun laws. I don't know. I just feel that violent crime is a symptom of something bigger, and banning guns would just be a band-aid over it. Not that I'm for guns. I just...I don't know. Can we be friends?

@Zleunamme said:

The Founding Fathers didn't anticipate the invention of semi-automatic assault rifles or sub-machine guns when they wrote the constitution. Fans of the Second Amendment seem to forget the other amendments. People have to the right to protect themselves and their property but to what end. Violence only brings more violence. I know that some people will not like this opinion. Gun fanatics make as much sense as the people that promote pro-life, also favor the death penalty.

There's a difference between supporting the right to defend yourself and being a gun fanatic. Someone who can get their hands on a gun and doesn't give a damn for the law isn't going to care about "getting it registered" or any of that bullshit. They're just going to use it to rob, shoot, whatever. And yes, those sorts of people do (sadly) exist.

As for abortion? I guess supporting gun laws and being anti-abortion goes hand in hand, but a fetus will probably become a child at some point. You should note that I did, indeed, make the distinction you guys usually point out - that a fetus is not yet considered a human child. But I also said "it probably will be"; however, that's a different topic for a different day and if you want to argue that particular one with me, start a thread or send me a PM. But be warned, it isn't going to get you anywhere.

I'm against the death penalty, though. Too often, cases have been found where someone on death row didn't commit the crime they're going to die for. I want to say "unless it can be proven without a reasonable doubt", but then those dismissed cases were supposedly proven without a reasonable doubt.

@Spoonman671:

@believer258 said:

I believe that I should be able to lawfully keep a gun for defense against those who would unlawfully keep a bigger gun.

See if that stupid second amendment wasn't still a thing you wouldn't have to worry about this, as most civilised first world countries don't have gun crime. (or barely any)

Now however there's too many guns in circulation to bother outlawing them. Shopkeepers would be at even more risk.

This thought is entirely due to my being sleep deprived and goes against all my normal beliefs, but why not just shoot all the gun nuts?

Not a lot we can do at this point. They probably should have been outlawed nearly a century ago. I hate how people think we should follow something written almost 250 years ago so strictly.

@Skytylz said:

Not a lot we can do at this point. They probably should have been outlawed nearly a century ago. I hate how people think we should follow something written almost 250 years ago so strictly.

I think the first amendment is pretty cool.

Freedom must always be tempered with a sense of self control and social responsibility.

Unfortunately, many people have neither.

@mandude "I don't know anyone that's ever been saved with a gun"

Man, I was pushing very hard to make you right and me wrong.

" I don't really understand the guns save people mentality."

"Back in Éire, even at the height of IRA activity, I never knew anyone that owned a gun, nor anyone that had ever been shot with one, so I also don't understand the outlaws will find a way, regardless mentality."

" From experience, I can say that I knew 3 people who have been shot and killed, nearly everyone I know owns a gun (or more) and I know one ex-convict who is around guns all the time"

So you've had both sides of the coin to look at.

" My instincts, and statistics would both tell me that this isn't a safe environment for me to be in."

Guns are bad, I will not tell a lie.

" I also don't think my ancestors were all too fond of guns as you think they were."

Fondness of weapons is not the issue.

"Violence in Ireland is also not as you would think it is. It's very non-lethal, and is mostly in the name of fun (depending on where you go)."

You're talking about boxing, not the same ting bruv.

"Among the more violent crowds in Ireland, a gun would be seen as cowardly so the sentiment is not even nearly the same."

Again, not talking about casual shit that happens at the clubs. Not even talking about things that are happening now. When / If the government pushes, we push back.

Are you saying Irelend does not meet force with force?

I don't mind the intent of the 2nd Amendment.

I just hate that so many people don't give a fuck about the 4th Amendment.

It's that Guns > Every Other Right attitude that drives me nuts.

I can understand rifles for hunting, and maybe handguns to protect yourself from intruders. But nobody but the military needs a goddamn assault rifle. Get rid of those fuckers.

@Sooty said:

@believer258 said:

I believe that I should be able to lawfully keep a gun for defense against those who would unlawfully keep a bigger gun.

See if that stupid second amendment wasn't still a thing you wouldn't have to worry about this, as most civilised first world countries don't have gun crime. (or barely any)

Now however there's too many guns in circulation to bother outlawing them. Shopkeepers would be at even more risk.

At least you're one of the few people in the anti-gun camp that recognizes this point. We're living in a society where there are boatloads of weapons already in circulation, so the sentiment of "outlawing guns in the US" it pretty feeble from a pragmatic standpoint. Most of these discussions devolve to either ego-driven shit slinging at "gun nuts" or overly-defensive jingoism. What ever your morals about it are, that's fine with me. But think about it logically. You can't snap your fingers and make all the firearms and the armed criminal element that already exist disappear. I still don't understand how that's so hard for people to realize.

I realize guns are bad. We use them to murder our brothers. Thats horrible. What do I do? Do I go against my Constitution? Some are armed, can I not arm myself?

Political thread, eh?

@PrivateIronTFU said:

I can understand rifles for hunting, and maybe handguns to protect yourself from intruders. But nobody but the military needs a goddamn assault rifle. Get rid of those fuckers.

The irony being, the vast majority of gun violence in north America is carried out using pistols and similar concealable weapons. If anything, it's those that need to be banned, confiscated, and destroyed by government agencies.

Military-style "assault weapons" (fully automatic, let's say) shouldn't be legal to own, but in truth, they're not really at the heart of the issue. They're not the weapons that are causing most of the casualties.

@LD50: Yes it does. There was that whole war of independence thing that happened not too long ago, but the most successful examples of Irish resistance were non-violent. If it were purely a case of force vs force, then Ireland's 5 million wouldn't really have a lot to say against the UK's 65 million.

I'm still not sure what we're talking about.

@mandude You're in a post about the second amendment. Is it safe to say you understand this is about weapons?

And mandude, if we're talking bout revolutions.

With that England nonsense...

@Spoonman671: @Aronman789:

Just to clear it up, the legal definition used for an "Assault weapon" is cosmetic and functional features that parity military weapons (pistol grip, Flash suppressor, bayonet mount etc). These are *semi automatic* rifles with a removable magazine and features that look like their military counterparts like the AR-15(an assault weapon by definition, but not an assault rifle, as below).

Weapons capable of fully automatic fire (Assault Rifles and Machine Guns, and other NFA/"Class 3" accessories etc for firearms) are subject to much more strict license and regulatory laws including ATF background check(fingerprints, photos, etc), sign off by local law enforcement, etc. They are also pretty ridiculously expensive(~15k for a legal automatic AR15 lower in many cases) due to the fact that they must have been registered before 1986, and very very rarely attributed to gun violence(scarcity, cost, regulation).

@LD50: Yes, if you want to continue being extremely vague.

A high powered rifle is not going to protect you when the government has laser-guided missile equipped drones and special operatives with cloaking and auto-correcting sniper rounds.

@LD50 said:

blah blah blah, I've decided you can't do this, blah blah blah

What an intelligent addition to the conversation. Welcome to a world where the Rule of Law exists.

I believe the Second Amendment should stay but guns needs to be regulated. No civilian needs or should have an M60 that shoots .50 Caliber rounds and a magazine that can hold hundreds of rounds. An Assault ban needs to be put in place.

@Zleunamme said:

Gun fanatics make as much sense as the people that promote pro-life, also favor the death penalty.

I have to address this. Pro-Lifers argue that human life begins at conception. That is, the "fetus," from Zygocyte to birth, is a human being and one that is incapable of evil, if for no other reason than its infancy. The death penalty is (intended to be) reserved for those whose guilt is confirmed beyond any shadow of a doubt, who show no possibility of rehabilitation, and who have committed a crime so heinous that imprisonment is not suitable punishment.

One cannot compare the most innocent with the most evil.

Americas too far gone, theres too many guns in circulation now.

Plus most of them see it as goodies vs baddies.

If people want something they're going to get it one way or another. Safe access and education are the only productive solutions. I look at guns the way I look at Heroin: they're not good for people, but no matter what I think about it, they're still going to use. So why not have them use safely?

@mlarrabee said:

@Zleunamme said:

Gun fanatics make as much sense as the people that promote pro-life, also favor the death penalty.

I have to address this. Pro-Lifers argue that human life begins at conception. That is, the "fetus," from Zygocyte to birth, is a human being and one that is incapable of evil, if for no other reason than its infancy. The death penalty is (intended to be) reserved for those whose guilt is confirmed beyond any shadow of a doubt, who show no possibility of rehabilitation, and who have committed a crime so heinous that imprisonment is not suitable punishment.

One cannot compare the most innocent with the most evil.

As soon as an innocent man is executed, the death penalty has failed utterly and completely. The sanctity of life argument no longer holds water when Texas just executed a man with an IQ of 61.