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#1 Posted by Persona3rocks (85 posts) -

Shadow Sae ever acknowledge Makoto? All the other shadow villains acknowledge the characters that they know, for example Okumura speaks to Haru, Kamoshida to Ann, etc. However, Shadow Sae doesn’t once speak to or about Makoto (until after you defeat her shadow) as pointed out by Makoto herself during the palace when she says “why won’t you answer me?!” I found this to be odd, especially considering the real Sae outright says earlier in the game that having to take care of her sister put pressure on her to always succeed and it added to her level of stress.

Anyone know why this was?

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#2 Posted by jeremyf (374 posts) -

I... don't have an answer for this.

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#3 Edited by Ryuku_Ryosake (445 posts) -

Just pulling out random speculation here. But maybe that is to show that real Sae was lying to herself about Makoto's presence putting pressure on her to push harder and further. Shadow Sae shows that is actually that she loves playing the game and pushing herself up the ladder, even if she must cheat her way up there. She is all about the thrill of it. So maybe Makoto really has just been an after thought to Sae all this time.

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#4 Posted by BladedEdge (1317 posts) -

I admit this didn't stick with me enough to remember the exact point in the game, however based on what you say Makoto herself says to her sister's shadow. I think other people are getting at the heart of the mater. I think her shadow's complete non-reaction to Makoto is meant to show that Sae's dark side has completely stopped caring about her sister.

Remind me if I am wrong but is there even a construct version of Makoto in Sae's world? As we certainly have seen a lot of other people who mater to the person's inner-self get represented by copies in multiple other dungeons. If a Makoto clone is lacking (I can't recall) That would signal that she doesn't really matter to Sae at all, that her job and the push to success has Trumped absolutely everything, even love of her own family.

Do Sae and Makoto connect better after her dungeon? Like in a way that shows Sae is paying attention to her Sister and not just herself? Again, I forget exactly but my memory was. Pre-dungeon Sae's more or less pushing Makoto to do well because of how it effects Sae, her sisters role in Sae's life is otherwise completely unimportant beyond the superficial. Post dungeon she starts to really see her sister for the first time, care about what Makoto wants and needs, and etc. It would certainly seem like "Oh one of my character flaws, what shadow-selves represent in a way, has been my completely ignoring my sister." Which would in turn explain why the shadow is specifically called out as ignoring Makoto by her in the game?

I'd have to go back and play this exact section to really be sure but that all reads as reasonable based on my spotty memory of that part of the game.

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#5 Posted by poobumbutt (960 posts) -

@bladededge: Damn, this was pretty much my theory. Sae's desire to "win the game" has superseded everything else, and given how indifferent Sae seems toward Makoto before her dungeon, I think this fits. Though I also do not remember if Sae and Makoto's relationship improves afterward. Just that Sae herself seems much more amicable and even friendly.

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#6 Posted by SethMode (2010 posts) -

@bladededge: Jesus Christ I went from not really remember at the outset of this thread to kind of being completely reminded and won over by this post. Well done, man.

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#7 Posted by xanadu (2044 posts) -
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#8 Posted by BladedEdge (1317 posts) -

@xanadu: Yes well the bet where if I lose I am limited to 4 lines only is only for the thread which must not be named. I am hoping it will lead to making posts like this one shorter in general however.

I hope people at least could follow what I wrote here! I think I did a decent job at guessing, I am glad for the praise. I hope it helped OP. P5 is a great game and the more people who get to play it and have enough interest to ask questions about it the better IMO.

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#9 Posted by super2j (2136 posts) -

I like the theories put forth as an answer so far. I never noticed this in the game but if true, thats an awesome bit of detail.

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#10 Posted by SethMode (2010 posts) -

Boy I confused you with @bladeofcreation a lot, and I don't know, outside of the blade bit. Great (multi line maybe? haha) posts from both you!

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#11 Edited by soimadeanaccount (616 posts) -

There is no cognitive version of Makoto in casino palace, I thought about it from that angle as well, similar to how there's no copy of Haru in the spaceport, and the team hinted that it is likely because her dad doesn't think much of her at all. However in the sisters' case it could also be because in Sae's mind Makoto has no place in the casino/courthouse. The team has to show their faces in a court room to gain access to the upper floors, so it is likely Sae does not consider Makoto to exist in the palace, but rather exist in the "normal" part of the city. Sae's distortion limited to the courthouse only and in the grand scheme of things she isn't that distorted when it comes to viewing other people and the city.

Another thing, may or maybe not be related, is that in all previous cases the real life relationship itself is distorted between the palace ruler and the "target". Kamoshida lusting after Ann, trying to force out MC and Ryuji, Yusuke's teacher using him, Kaneshiro sees Makoto as a special customer, Futaba hating herself, Haru's dad sees Haru as a commodity, could all probably be consider twisted and distorted. But perhaps the relationship between Sae and Makoto really isn't too terrible. Outside of that one instance of Sae's frustrated outburst (which serve more as a trigger for Makoto's story arc) their relationship looks distanced, but uneventful enough with a few awkward if not sisterly moments especially leading up to the casino dungeon and the calling card.

The core of Sae's distortion is her warped view of "justice" after being pushed against the wall, and using prosecution for her own gain. Makoto is not directly a big part of it. Plus her treasure never got stolen, so no forced a change of heart resolution either.

I would not put it pass if the dev decides to just not explore that angle either since that story arc has enough stuff going on as it is, and I find a lot of the villains vs thieves banters to be one of the weakest part of the game.

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#12 Posted by BladeOfCreation (1336 posts) -

@sethmode: Haha thanks duder! If there's multiple "Blades" on here, you can usually identify me as the one who's not particularly interested in anime or JRPGs. There's maybe a few animes per year year that I really like. :-)

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#13 Posted by BladedEdge (1317 posts) -

@bladeofcreation: Where as I am the one for whom JRPGs are my favorite genre and i consume multiple hours of anime every week.

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#14 Posted by BladeOfCreation (1336 posts) -

@bladededge: *places hand on mirror* You're me, and I'm you, in different univerrses.