The Wrestling Discussion Thread

Yeah I know they have certainly done it. With this one it really felt like they said "fuck it we aren't putting in any more effort, if you didn't find it, fuck off" more than they have before tho. And for Jerichos 30th episode.... It was so sloppy.

Also as long as I'm bitching, a part that was so fucking corny to me was when the Bucks were facing away from the screen "watching" the FTR match and they showed it like 3 times. I coudn't man.

I agree. It was dumb, and I was actually way more interested when he said "no" and walked off. I was really curious where it was going to go from there.

@redwing42: totally. When he said No I was actually really interested for a second.

Instead of dragging it out to a cool 3 match arc where Cody has to get over the hump in the last match or yeah maybe avoids Brody for a time before he can't and overcomes his fear, they killed the feud and probably all of Dark Order's momentum and heat.

I was among the folks that enjoyed both Cody promo's but despite that I'm still not overly thrilled with him winning the title back so quickly, most of the AEW title pictures haven't devolved to ping pong so them doing it for a returning babyface moment made sense to me.

I didn't think this weeks Dynamite was particularly great though. Jericho's match was a stinker but at least that one we kinda knew going in. I don't get the decision to have FTR face TH2 for the titles, especially after them fake mocking Best Friends for being backyard wrestlers and then Jack Evans gets a title shot. But I digress; the real issue there is more that the style TH2 works clashes entirely with FTR and it just piles up another match where FTR have come across as underwhelming. Their promo work has been great imo, and pairing them with Tully works. But other than their match with SCU and with Hangman/Page a high majority of FTR's AEW matches have been style clashes where things just don't look right and even as heels it doesn't really feel like they get momentum. I like the concept of the Clash with Greatness segments that they are doing, but here's hoping we actually get some great tag team wrestling matches out of FTR from it like it seemed was going to be the case with the first week with SCU.

The Cody/Brody Dog Collar match was probably the best match of the night and was a well worked old school style match that just had Cody winning a little too soon. Otherwise match wise it was more of a lackluster Dynamite, which I think is kind of a bummer considering the honoring to Jericho and that we knew Luthar was going to be in the main event. Like that's the night we decide no in ring for Bucks or Omega or Page, or Lucha or Jurassic? Will Hobbs might of been the next best looking ring talent tonight after the Brodie/Cody match.

Matches aside there was some truly great bits during Dynamite however. From the various fun celebrity congratulations for Jericho, to the build up to Archer/Mox and finally the Best Friends/FTR setup. MJF had a good promo at the end of the show and I literally couldn't stop laughing at the end bit where it was just Chris Jericho's name in every different position over a generic TV credits crawl. It was a funny way to end it.

To some of the comments in this thread though, like I will say I do echo the sentiment that I wish AEW would book longer term feuds more regularly. Some of it's best feuds (Inner Circle vs Elite, Cody vs MJF, Best Friends vs Proud and Powerful) had multiple weeks to grow and build into something and pretty much all of them had some solid payoff somewhere minus Cody/MJF. I find it odd though because despite their hesitance to book rematches regularly and how frustrating it can sometimes be when a feud is getting started or looks in a good spot only to have the first big match wind up seemingly the last match of the feud; these stories don't really end with those blow off matches. MJF almost joined Inner Circle a year ago and now they are doing that again. Cody/MJF still have issues and it'll likely come up again. I guess what I'm saying is while I still would rather they stick with things longer, that they don't isn't preventing them from taking their characters and doing interesting things with them regularly.

Like some of the hyperbole in this thread and I will call it that, regarding Brodie and the Dark Order because he lost is hilarious. Your telling me that a fake misinformation cult group whose entire identity is built on grooming losers can't move on from a title loss? Come on. Like I'm not saying I'd of booked Brodie to drop it that soon either but creatively they'll be just fine, and this has been the case with lots of their workers who were involved in good stories that were dropped. They often end up moving on to something else entertaining/interesting. A big reason they do this is because of their weird obsession with presenting themselves like MMA in some ways, and in MMA rematches are rare because you normally move on after someone loses. But I won't deny I also think this approach has hampered storylines where it was clear working a longer program even for a few more weeks or one more big show would be better. I also think their overall storytelling approach week to week is a little more flawed because they only have big PPV's once every like 3-4 months. This means they do a lot more one off big time title programs in the longer dead time on Dynamite to compensate.

Am I the only one who actually liked the main-event? I've been sort of warming up to Luther (and dime store Ophidian) in their Dark matches. I love the lift up Meteora they do and Luther seems to actually be a good worker. Plus I really mark out for Luther's extremely weird, high pitched voice.

I don't want to be too harsh on Luther, because the guy is over 50 and has wrestled a lot of hardcore matches over the years. He just doesn't seem to be in peak wrestling form when it comes to the in-ring action.

@brian_: yeah a lot of ambling around the ring lol. but he is old and apparently has an injury history too. It was cool of Jericho to do but it was not a good match at all.

The Okada/Takagi match today was superb

Moxley vs Chris Dickinson & Filthy Tom vs Homicide from Bloodsport were great. The womens tournament was somewhat underwhelming.

"Who should we have face Asuka for the title on the big "season premier" of Raw next week? Nattie? I am sure the match will be good, Lacey? Sure its something different who knows maybe they work good together... wait I got it! LANA!"

Who books this shit.

@dizzyhippos: the last Kenny line made me do an IRL spit take when I saw that. He's so underrated funny. Also the joke on how the Bucks weren't facing the screen with Matt Hardy salvaged that corniness on TV. They always will make fun of themselves which I appreciate.

Eric Young is the best heel in the world at the moment. Just thought I'd let y'all know.

@retris: One of WWE's biggest mistakes in recent years was not debuting Sanity during the AJ/Nakamura program allowing Shinsuke a run with the belt and The Club a faction to feud with.

Dynamite was good, few little things I have issues with like how they are doing the TNT thing, feels like they are dangerously close to over exposing Orange Cassidy, and if the collective weekend showed anything its that there are women out there to be signed andAEW's womens division really dosn't have an excuse anymore.

NXT on the other hand is giving long matches to Austin Theory (HARD PASS) giving Aliyah offense on Toni Storm, and running back like half the last takeover card on TV so nothing matters yay!

I liked Moxley and Archer. I liked Archer's presentation so much more, from his great chops to the blonde to it seemed a revamped and less corny intro song.

that said, can AEW stop burying big matches as they are going on and immediately after they end to set up the next angle? This was supposed to be a big match and Moxley is supposed to really be able to lose. Are we really believing that when they are bringing in Kingston to talk over the match and at times they aren't talking about the match at all for stretches?

And I love Kingston but they are at this point rushing all sorts of angles in ways they don't have to. They don't let matches breathe. Guys come out and run in and start the next feud immediately at the end.

The whole gamer gimmick for Miro is also so goofy, its gonna make him seem like a literal child if it goes on any longer so please stop. Its a they broke my videogames so i'm mad storyline lol.

Even seeing the whole MJF and Inner Circle thing coming so far I'm loving it. I saw it coming because it made too much sense and you know they want to work together. I think a long uneasy alliance storyline with them and Wardlow going babyface will be great.

I haven't wanted to bring this up as a criticism on this cause it is cool to see the guy wrestle in big matches and it seems like you're hating or don't get the gimmick or think its small time. But to me I absolutely loved the guy working as the Best Friends manager and then occasionally getting into a match. At this point he is just wrestling. Hell Cody even made him lock up and everything. And the guy can wrestle but its just losing the gimmick appeal to me.

If he's the center of attention so much it doesn't work as well. Its why Kramer is the side kick character not the main character of Seinfeld even though he gets maybe the biggest reactions and most classic moments of any character on Seinfeld. Its about picking your spots. And I know he has been wrestling on the indies for some time but I think they are losing the character on TV.

I didn't think Swole and Shida was good and I agree. I think Shida is pretty good but personally I think its clear if she doesn't have the right fit with her opponent she can't really carry a match. I am bummed they signed Ivalisse. She hasn't been good and they really need to bring in some talent, even with people coming back from injury.

@toughshed: I thought Shida and Swole was fine but... there was like 0 reason behind it happening other then its a womens match. Feels like the AEW womens division right now has like 4 people that are TV ready, Shida, Baker, Anna Jayy and maybe Nyla depending on who her opponent is. With women like Priscilla Kelly, Lindsay Snow, Leyla Hirsch and Solo Darling out there its just oscinine that their womens division is so poor.

@dizzyhippos: There also was no reasoning behind it, that didn't help. Listening to Wrestling Observer they disliked it more than I did even lol.

I haven't seen enough of the women's indies out there to know myself but I trust your judgement. I really liked Priscilla Kelly when she has been on AEW and would like to see more of her. She has great ring presence as a performer.

I think Jamie Hayter was also great when she was there a bit and could be a top heel. She has a great strongwoman look to me and good size. I assume she's still in Japan for a while tho. See her posting some but not working atm.

MJF and Jericho going back and forth on the mic these past few weeks has been awesome. It's actually really funny to watch Chris have to keep up with Max instead of the other way around. I laughed out loud when MJF was complimenting his hair and says 'can I touch it, bro?' and Santana looks at Ortiz and just goes, 'pause.' And then the director got the perfect shot of Sammy raising his oversized sleeves to his mouth in disbelief. Gold.

In response to the Orange Cassidy discussion: Jericho mentioned on his podcast that AEW's goal with their program together over the summer was to turn Orange into a main eventer. And he said that they think they accomplished that goal. So I think the days of Orange just being a manager are over, at least for now.

@hansolol: I didn't hear that said directly, thanks. Of course, makes sense with their booking. I wish the best for the guy honestly 100 percent, just for me his character isn't as fun now and I don't take his character wrestling that seriously either just because its not a good character for real emotional storytelling that others do like a Kingston, Omega, or Mox.

He has sold more merchandise than anyone but Jericho over there it seems like so he has support and deserves it. Its just not the right move to me for that character. Pac v Orange was one of my favorite matches maybe ever, I just loved it, but you can't get that reaction or magic again now with those funny moments and spots in that match.

The next 3 days of the G1 are going to be mint

That Shida vs Swole match was sloppy. I don't know what happened there. Shida struggled multiple time to lift Swole. I almost thought Swole was sandbagging her or something, but then Shida also botched the kip up, and was delivering some pretty weak looking strikes, and I thought she might have been hurt or sick or something. I have no idea what it was, but that match wasn't pretty.

If the crowds were there, Orange Cassidy would work much better. The reactions in the PAC match back this up. Imagine a full house for the first Jericho match.

It might be the fact that I've followed Fire / Orange for a decade now, but to me him transitioning into a more serious character has been great. He's a terrific wrestler, I'd even say one of the best in the world, and just doing comedy shit is a waste. Back when he had two gimmicks simultaneously it made sense, but if he's just Orange then Orange needs to have those matches. And his gimmick transition from a stoner to a shonen anime protagonist has been pretty organic in my opinion.

I know that's a factor but I think it might be diminishing returns.

Like when was the last really funny Orange moment? There hasn't been one since he's been featured as a singles guy.

But the guy is talented enough. He will personally not be a top guy for me with his character. Once he is just wrestling he is less entertaining and a bit boring. But all that said I won't be shocked if he does just fine. Its just my take. I think in a reserve role he'd shine even brighter but it'd take restraint and also it might not be what he wants at all so that's cool.

Ben Carter seems to of signed with WWE. Hes short and they are gonna take away half the moves he does that make him interesting so good luck to the future Shorty C.

I would just like to state for the record that every time I see Eddie Kingston, I appreciate him more. He just feels like the realest guy out there. I do hope that they can get a belt on him at some point while he is in AEW. I'd love for him to take the TNT belt from Cody.

@redwing42: I suggest looking up Eddie's CHIKARA promos, dude has always been a very raw promo dude.

Speaking of Eddie and regarding AEW's quickly ending storylines. I don't think the Lance Archer vs. Mox feud was planned to end so quickly. I think it was supposed to be the big feud for the Fall period. But then Corona happened and Archer was off TV for a while... and something else came to be. I think Eddie taking the ball and completely running with it was something AEW anticipated (although they should've), but they certainly responded by quickly making him the centre of the main-event storylines. With that, they've finally got someone who could credibly take Moxley's belt if they feel like they want a heel champion. Really, I think they should have Eddie win the belt so they can elevate another face to take it from him eventually.

I didn't watch RAW but the recap sounds hilarious. Already beating and beating up Retribution, beating Keith Lee again, forgetting about Peyton's singles push just to stick her with Lacey Evans, and straight up ignoring the draft with Otis.

Remember when everyone was out for blood when AEW let that Matt Hardy disaster continue? I am sure those same people will totally apply the same logic to this incident.

@retris: It'll be Omega who takes it. It feels like that has been the build ever since the first Omega/Mox match.

This shit is so stupid. It's a damn tag team match. If I guy is legit knocked loopy, pause the match, attend to them and bring someone else in. This shit doesn't fly in any other contact sport. At some point, the logic of a wrestling match shifted from "pinning the opponent's shoulders to the mat for three seconds" to "kill your opponent so they can't possibly kick out of a pin", which makes it damn near impossible to protect kayfabe when someone is legit hurt. Not that protecting kayfabe is more important than protecting actual human beings, but no one in a wrestling match is going to accept that either.

I'm just going to say it: QT Marshall is low-key a terrific babyface.

Bound For Glory is extremely hype this year. Plenty of great storylines going in.

They should of sent... a poet.

Dynamite was as close to a perfect episode as they have gotten.

NXT had Dream and Theory in long matches and I am pretty sure Dream was wearing a "senpai noticed me" like shirt so by default that show gets 0 stars.

I feel like I'm getting to the point where I'm just watching AEW out of obligation simply because it exist. I keep expecting something to happen that I should care about, but it never does, and I don't even know what it would even be anyways. Like, I know why I watch New Japan, for example. It's to see a slugfest between Suzuki and whoever. Or to see ZSJ and Sanada wrestle the crap out of each other. I struggle to think of any match, or turn, or title change that could happen in AEW that would make me excited.

EDIT: Like... I think the thing that popped me the most tonight was seeing Steve-o. That's probably not a good place for me to be at. Maybe I'm just broken.

@brian_: Feels like their divisions are kinda in a holding pattern waiting for the PPV, that said the show was still great imho.

I am gonna be really bummed when Austin Theory gets inserted into this program and I have to stop watching it.

Hope Reynolds is ok. He and Silver have become some of my favorite dudes on the show from their stuff on BTE.

I didn't quite know how to take the Omega entrance at first. I was just kinda like, 'uh, where is this going?' But his expression after the pin was priceless. And it was made all the better by how he acted before and after the match with the fake humility and appreciation. The big entrance and attitude is now leading me to believe that Hangman is going to beat him in the tournament and that's going to be the thing that sends him over the edge.

The song and dance segment rocked. It was a good episode overall with a lot of good wrestling.

I feel crazy I didn't really notice Reynolds getting knocked out so bad watching the match real time. I guess the wrestlers didn't either though, Blade hardly did even as he dragged him. Glad he seems to be okay because that was handled unfortunately. They could have got him out of there and checked on quickly after it happened.

Dr. Sampson has had enough clear fuck ups here that I question why the hell he is there.

Kingston is killing it. I thought his promo he did for the show about how he had to be a snake like this was so good.

That would be cool and to see him go full heel with the real cleaner persona. I did really enjoy this kind of trumped up goofy version of it he was doing here though and how he played everything off. Was hilarious listening to WOR and having Dave Meltzer say it was a pure baby face gimmick.

Lots of "thats a choice" booking from Impacts PPV last night. And I don't know wtf is going on but Kylie Rea got pulled for an "injury" again.

@dizzyhippos:From what I've understood is that she legit has an injury or COVID, but they made it into a storyline.

Bound For Glory was pretty good, the matches were fine although nothing really outstanding (except the Moose vs. EC3 match which was an instant classic) and to me the booking was all pretty logical and the people who deserved to win won. Still don't understand why they've decided to try and make Bryan Myers a thing, he sucks.

At this point the two big downsides of Impact seem to be that the commentary is abysmal and the production keeps on screwing up. Their tag team division is shallow but it still manages to be more competitive than any other American tag division. Every other division is not as shallow, but also just as competitive.

Which sort of brings me to what @brian_posted. For me AEW has become a chore because it really is the Elite show more and more. They've made the champions of any division not really matter, they're just side characters who can wrestle while everyone asks "where's the Elite?". Look at Moxley for example, he went from having great momentum to just being the dude who holds the belt until Omega gets it. Same with the tag division, you have guys like Lucha Bros who were the biggest tag team in the world before AEW and now they're just there to have a good match with Kenny in the tournament. That goes for EYFBO/LAX/PnP too. The thing is, everyone else gets very simple, short storylines where they cut a couple of promos and brawl a little, then they wrestle and the feud is done. The Elite on the other hand get these elaborate, intricate storylines complete where every little segment feels micromanagered to fit their heroes journey (or descent into villainy). Because of that there's no sense of danger in the shows, no feeling of surprise and the divisions just lack competitiveness. It's just generally not an exciting show, especially if you contrast it to something like Impact.

@retris: Not saying you are completely wrong, but there have been some ongoing stories that don't involve the Elite. You had Cassidy/Jericho, Best Friends/LAX, and Team Taz/Darby Allin that have all gotten pretty good time for their stories. Also, the stop and start Hardy/Guevara feud. I do agree that there is too much talent to focus solely on the Elite.

@redwing42: The thing is, I love the storylines they have for others because they're simple. It's stuff wrestling needs, it's just people getting angry at each other and then wanting to fight.

Then you have the Elite storylines that have all sorts of twists and turns and elaborate hair colour changes to signify change in attitude. It's not that they're the only storylines out there, it's that the other storylines are much shorter and simpler. The other thing is that the Elite storylines clearly have a protagonist and an antagonist, whereas the other storylines are basic wrestling feuds. Cody's mini-feud with Archer was about Cody getting revenge for his brother, Cody's feud with the Dark Order is about Cody overcoming odds, even the Young Bucks storyline is about Young Bucks trying to find their groove back against FTR. In any of these feuds their opponents are just there as catalysts for the Elite to go through emotional arcs. It's all just so completely unnecessarily complex.

That's the sad thing about it. Best Friends vs. LAX was an excellent feud and AEW finally getting to see Deathmatch Dustin was fulfilling. Same with Eddie Kingston, like I said earlier AEW should give him the belt but at this point I don't think anyone expects them to call an audible and have him be the one to dethrone Mox instead of Omega.

The rumour going around about Kylie Rae now is that it was mental health related issues. I feel so bad for her if that's true.

@dizzyhippos: the Dick Grayson line cracked me up

@dizzyhippos: The fact that they're running with having Eddie cut promos on every dumb thing and him just knocking it out of the park is just magnificent.

LEYLA HIRSCH VS SHIDA ON DARK THIS IS NOT A DRILL!

The one solace I had about this bad gimmick is that it hadn't ruined Mia Yim yet...