The Wrestling Discussion Thread

The shows are going to remain the same for a while but once they decide to go in a new direction, they really need to figure out a way to say, in so many words, something to the effect of:

"We know the shows have been pretty bad for the past 20 years and complete dogshit for the past 5 but we're actually going to try to put on a good show for once. The creative team has been completely reworked and we're not doing the camera cut bullshit anymore."

Or maybe the shows stay mostly the same with Prichard running things, and they just keep catering to their hardest of hardcore fans. Not holding my breath.

@hansolol: What possible benefit is there to shitting on literally 20 years of your product and alienating those hardcore fans? If they're smart and/or care about the product they'll fix some of the long term problems by elevating some new talent, doing some actual long term storytelling, letting people do unscripted promos and all the other stuff that they've needed to do forever, but they won't say anything about the last 20 years because while they would benefit from finding a new audience there's no benefit to intentionally alienating the audience you have (and people will come back over time if the shows are better, not because of some big announcement that it used to be bad but now is fixed.)

Chances are they won't change much, though. WWE has been extraordinarily financially successful over the past 5 years so there is no pressure to change there, and the people running the thing now are Vince's daughter and Vince's hand-picked successor who isn't even a wrestling guy. Why would they change what is, from their perspective, working great?

I would think the one definite change, even if everything else stays the same, will be fewer day of re-writes. That alone should provide a bit more continuity and maybe a better environment for the "superstars" to work. No guarantee that the writing will be better, but I think the writers will actually have the opportunity to try some things, and that could be interesting.

@bigsocrates: I actually meant to write "not in so many words," lol. I'm reminded of that "marathon not a sprint" press release. It wasn't hard to tell what they were actually saying.

Also, one of the things you see a lot on Bryan Alvarez's timeline is some version of "why do Bryan and Dave shit on Vince when it's those darn writers that are messing up the show?" Not everyone knows Vince ran the entire show. I really think they would benefit from some kind of acknowledgement that things are going to be different now that the one guy holding everything back is gone. Apparently they already mentioned ROH and said the word 'belt' on Smackdown? So hey, that's something. Remember this?

I think this thread needs to be brought back up to discuss the news that's got the whole wrestling world buzzing.

SBK is COMING TO MLW!

Between everyone un-canceling Ric Flair for being a rapist right while Vince McMahon is being cancelled for being a rapist, and this Jerry Springer ass shit with Cm Punk, I've been in a phase these past couple of months of just slowly losing interest in wrestling again.

I tried getting back into Stardom recently, and it's been fine for the most part. The in-ring stuff is usually pretty great. But some of the promo work is just really poorly acted. I'm sorry, but I just cannot watch Saya Kamitani fake cry anymore. I was thinking I might give TJPW a try and see how that goes.

EDIT: Naturally, after saying this, someone is taking me to the AEW show tonight.

Logan Paul is going to wrestle Roman Reigns at Crown Jewel. I don't really know how to feel about this as Logan Paul is popular with teenager audience. My nephew who doesn't watch WWE often now is excited as he thinks Logan Paul could hold his own against Reigns. Though it's better than McIntyre vs Roman Reigns again. WWE even had a press conference to promote the fight for November yesterday in Las Vegas. Least WWE is making it look legit real which is something they haven't done since the Ruthless Aggression era.

Triple H bringing back Strowman, Johnny Gargano, Iylo Sky, Kai, Karron Kross, Scarlett makes me wonder if Sasha Banks and Naomi return or Bray Wyatt. I know Triple H has bought back people that were fired to give them a second chance.

The Logan Paul is absolutely *just* for the Gen Z/Logan Paul fans, right?

There's zero chance he wins, and it's in Saudi Arabia, so outside of those casual fans, who actually cares?

@brian_: I know I keep touting it in this thread, but NOAH is definitely the puro-fed that deserves a checking out from people. I'm not following it religiously either, but any show they have has absolute banger matches.

A Paul brother vs. Roman Reigns at the blood money PPV reminds me that even if WWE is genuinely better now and AEW is just depressing, I'm still not going to switch to WWE. I guess I'll just watch Impact or something for my weeklies.

@retris: I might give it a shot if I check in on TJPW since all their stuff is tied into one subscription. But I haven't had any desire to watch any wrestling for the last two weeks, and I'm feeling mostly fine about it so far.

NOAH fucking rules. The more I see of Nakajima, the better

Can someone please explain Jade Cargill for me? From what I could gather in 5 minutes, she was signed to AEW as pretty much a completely raw talent, then they invented a belt for her, and decided that she'd never lose, never be involved in the actual women's division, and never even really have a feud with anyone. She's at times passable in the ring, but not great, and she's awful on the mic. I'll admit she has a swagger and a decent presence, but so do a ton of other women.

Was she famous before deciding to become a wrestler or did they just see the female version of Bobby Lashley's body and decide to go all in just on that?

@ragtagbag: Size and presence go a long way in wrestling. You can't really teach that, but you can teach someone to wrestle and talk better. I think she has definitely made improvements there compared to when she first started. As long as she doesn't kill half the people she's in the ring with, she'll be at least better off than Goldberg was.

As for a lack of feuds or interactions, I blame that on the company. AEW's women's division is possibly the worst managed roster in wrestling right now. They get one match a night, and it's almost always around the world championship, so everyone else not immediately involved feels meaningless. That match is then usually sandwiched between maybe two to three minutes of promo time, so on top of the one match a night, there's barely any time to build up an angle.

@ragtagbag: Much like with a lot of things in wrestling, she's tight with Tony Khan (and Cody Rhodes) so they strapped a rocket on her even if she was just a trainee. Same reason they tried to push Red Velvet when she didn't even have the size on her side.

@retris: @brian_: Yeah, I get all of that. When you have someone who's managed to perfectly sculpt every single muscle on the body, you want them on TV. I guess the biggest thing that bothers me is why create a meaningless title for her. I wouldn't have nearly as much of a problem if she was just the random monster who randomly takes people out.

@ragtagbag: That's just kind of how AEW books things. Instead of thinking up meaningful storylines, they just create more belts. They currently have 14 championships for three hours of TV a week.

Man. AEW is just depressing now. I've reached the point that I did with NJPW where I'm skipping the matches too because I know they'll never lead to anything. It's wild that AEW is now what fans and wrestlers refer to as the place where talent goes to get wasted. The fact that they're only now building for Hangman vs. Moxley after they completely managed to bungle Hangman as the first homegrown main-eventer, and even now it's only because they had to suspend Punk. They once again have a battle of the belts special where there's literally zero build to any match. They've also completely massacred ROH and seem to be taking a dump on it's corpse, Impact has given ROH and it's legacy more respect than AEW has.

Speaking of Impact, holy shit the build for Bound for Glory has been good. They've been slowly building for the Josh Alexander vs. Eddie Edwards since January and it really hasn't felt like it drags. Plus Motor City is still fucking good, I'd even say Chris Sabin is the best he's ever been. Oh and Jordynne Grace vs. Masha Slamovich will be a fucking banger, just two buff girls one of which is roided on a Brian Cage level beating the shit out of each other.

Also, I (still) believe in Joe Hendry.

Wait, that was the wrong Joe Hendry vignette. Here's theright one. They're all great though.

I started watching Maria's Women's Wrestling Army. I'm only a few episodes in, but it seems pretty decent. It's kind of just the leftovers of what she was doing with Ring of Honor before the closer, while bringing in some names from Impact and NWA, but that's kind of all I need from wrestling right now.

This might be the coolest thing I've seen in a wrestling ring.

https://twitter.com/PuroresuFlow/status/1583795721819475968

Willow is finally All Elite. Finally

I'm a total gremlin, but my favourite thing in wrestling right now is the Good Brothers ghosting NJPW and shoot holding their belt hostage. After how reluctant NJPW was to bring them back because they screwed NJPW the last time, they do the same thing but even worse. It's stupefying. Those two are known to be gigantic pieces of shit, they're mediocre at best in the ring or on the mic and they manage to fuck over the biggest wrestling fed in Japan twice. It had more to do with NJPW's current desperation, but holy shit is it amusing.

@retris: I just find it hilarious that it happens to be the Never belt. Quite possibly the least important belt in any major wrestling company. It's like kidnapping a mannequin.

I'm so glad that worked out.

@shindig: Poison ranas are always the scariest looking move to me. Taking one immediately after catching someone on your shoulders is nuts, but they both nail it perfectly. Momo leans forward on the catch to give Mayu enough space to not crunch herself into the mat on the backflip. Mayu gets her knees down before Momo hits the mat. Watching it in slow motion, frame by frame, it's insane that this went as well as it did.

The rematch everybody's been asking for is finally here. Excal and Tazz are in top form during the match too.

Apparently Shibata vs OC was great

@sombre: I mean, it was an Orange Cassidy match, dude legit is one of the best wrestlers in the world, even with the gimmick. And Shibata could go like he used, because he had a wrestler that's safe.

I'm just scared of the rumours that they might book Shibata vs. Danielson. Two guys who have no business being in the wrestling ring stiffing the shit out of each other is not a good time in my book.

Joe Hendry, digital hero.

Impact is generally good at giving people who are over opportunities, but holy shit this is the good shit. Cardona was a great idea too, but Hendry is a social media genius.

If someone had told me a year ago that 2023 would start with WWE presence at both NJPW's and NOAH's new year's shows, I would've laughed at them and called them crazy. What a difference a year makes.

Hiroshi Hase needs to be added to the list of crazy over 60 guys that have no fucking business being as good at that age as they are.

I know that WK is on as I type this, and as a historically big NJPW fan, I should be excited and watching

But honestly I don't give a shit. I'm so burnt out on New Japan. They burnt so many bridges over the last few years, and their Bullet Club/HoT focused pushes completely took me out of watching NJPW almost entirely.

I know I could be watching now, and potentially be getting back into it, but I just don't care anymore. I think the sun has ironically set on New Japan for me. It's just not as good as it was even three or four years ago

@sombre: I've been thinking about how Bullet Club is entering it's 2nd decade this year, making it a longer stable than all iterations of nWo for example. That's kind of like NJPW for me, just stagnating and lacking excitement. I've always preferred the NOAH/AJPW style of puro, but I'm watching WK now and holy hell the NOAH show was so much more exciting to me. The only thing NJPW has going for it is that it has a decent English commentary team. If anyone ever considers trying NOAH, for fuck's sake do not even try to watch it in English. The commentators literally don't even react to wrestlers hitting their signatures and going for the pin. And I mean LITERALLY. It's just "oh, he hit his finisher and got the win".

Also, lol at Karl Anderson not selling the finish. What a gigantic piece of shit that man is.

Hot asian wife

Jesus fuck, I should've guessed Gedo would end up doing a worked shoot backstage fight.

Still, KONGOU IN NJPW AND/OR LIJ IN NOAH! I AM HERE FOR IT! GIVE ME MORE SHINGO GOING AGAINST NOAH GUYS LIKE IN THE GOOD OLD DAYS.

Is Ricky Starks supposed to be a face, because what part of repeatedly making fun of a guy's lisp is going to make him likeable? I have no idea what they are trying to do there.

@sargon: He's an Attitude Era face or a Vince face (after the two Vinces who love this archetype). So in other words, he's a total dick, but the people he bullies are bad guys so it's okay according to the logic.

Got to say, Jay Briscoe dying in a car accident has had me really bummed today. He's one of those rare wrestlers who were the complete package: look, wrestling, psychology, workrate, mic skills, charisma, a good presence backstage, you name it. The saddest part is that only now coming around that he had grown as a person and wasn't homophobic anymore. Especially since it seemed like they were going to get a bigger spotlight in AEWROH. Plus add the part about this happening with his two daughters in the car and they're injured too. Just all fucking horrible.

It's cool to me that last Friday's both big main-events were women's matches and both were absolute fucking bangers. The Jordynne Grace vs. Mickie James title vs. career match specifically was an all time great match, fitting absolutely in the category with HBK vs. Flair and HBK vs. Undertaker.

I also wanted to post bigger thoughts on NOAH and NJPW at the start of the year, but I haven't found myself having energy. The thing that I've come to accept is that I really just prefer the NOAH style of just two guys (or teams) beating the shit out of each other until one can't go on anymore, instead of the modern NJPW style where you've got 20 minutes of slow stalling until a wrestler does their signature taunt and then it turns into a Dragon Gate match. Heck, I'm finding myself to be a strange outlier with NJPW, because my favourite Wrestle Kingdom match was the Jr. match. I'm not normally a Master Wato guy, but that match made me root for the dweeb and for the briefest moment, had me believe the doofus could win. Then the match ended with him losing because his rookie instincts made him lack ring awareness. This actually built anticipation for his inevitable win, which is something I feel NJPW hasn't been doing for a long while. Even the Ospreay/Omega match, while good, went too much into the Passion of the Christ meets daytime soap for me. Way too much telling and not enough showing from Ospreay.

Holy fucking shit. This is an absolute bananas matchup, especially with the Bloodsport rules.

Since it's in the news that Paul Rudd is finally aware of Orange Cassidy, I've finally got the chance to use my dumb observational joke: One is a dude who went from playing a slacker to playing ant-man, the other is a wrestler who went from playing an ant-man into playing a slacker. Bababooey, bababooey.

I'll get my coat.

@retris: New Japan has just got kinda crap right?

@sombre: The biggest thing they have going on right now that people are talking about is Okada being a full-blown heel in NOAH, so yeah it's fucking dire.

I honestly don't know where it all went so wrong.

Infact yes I do. It was unifying the belts, meaning there's now no second tier title (Where will Naito fit in ANYWHERE now?) and the proliferation of Bullet Club and House of Torture.

I'd even go so far as to say BC and HoT have killed New Japans incredible boom that it had post Kenny/Okada and going further into Shingo's title run

At least they should have the constant storyline of "who will Mercedes Mone accidentally cripple first?" going for them

@sombre: Let's be real, NJPW has never been that good in the booking side. People give TNA shit for constantly booking AJ in storylines where we see if AJ will finally win the big one and stop being the future of TNA and become the ace... but NJPW did that storyline with Okada for like a decade straight. They did that storyline even after Okada had had the longest IWGP hebbykyu reign, almost doubling Hashimoto's record.

They just lucked out with the combination of great talent, WWE sucking, NOAH losing most of it's talent and American fans wanting something genuinely different, and the fact that the Inokism booking was even worse, and NJPW World getting new eyes on the product. Now they're hurting for talent, COVID has messed with them, and they've completely lost the plot, and NOAH has come back in a big way after the DDT ownership. Also, people just genuinely are getting tired of the NJPW match formula and would rather just watch big meaty boys slapping meat.

Damn that first ROH episode was a banger and the ending. Oh shit. A match literally 11 years in the making. I was not expecting any of this, given how badly AEW has treated ROH before this.

Also this happened.

What a ridiculously stacked card, and a World Championship match literally over a decade in the making. Whoever is booking ROH now is doing a unbeatable job. No wrestling show in years has come even close to how good the ROH on HonorClub is weekly. Just basics, banger match after banger match and storylines that are personal.

This Wrestlemania week has been really a return to form for all. It feels like every indie company and others are putting on great shows and showcasing great talents like they used to before COVID. That Bloodsport is a freaking must see, especially for the Ibushi match.

WWE on the other hand feels like they've managed to fumble the ball? It feels like even diehard WWE fans like Dan have been halfhearted in the defense of Cody vs. Roman, and everyone else has kind of stopped giving a shit? On the other hand, people are hyped as fuck for that Rey vs. Dom match for a good reason. That match is lightning in a bottle that they managed to catch.

I've reached the point where I'm just not going to predict what wrestling I'm going to like in a couple months time. All that seems to change from month to month now: some companies gain momentum, others lose it. Some companies have great storylines, others just have a holding pattern. Heck, look at Impact currently, they HAD a great card for the NJPWxImpact show, but they seem to be absolutely cursed and shit went completely sideways.

Turns out doing a Canadian destroyer off a ladder, to the outside of the ring, through a bunch of tables is a stupid fucking idea.