UPDATED: Xbox Series S/Series X has leaked. Will be $299 and $499

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navster15

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#51  Edited By navster15

@strijd: I mean, if you’re interested in a PC with unlimited budget, you’d be able to blow away the contemporary console in any era. This is hardly a revelation.

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dsjwetrwete

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#52  Edited By dsjwetrwete

@panfoot:

From a PC gamer perspective, the hardware isn't great even if it's technically a good deal FOR THE PRICE. If Microsoft targets Series S hardware for 1080p/1440p and 60/120fps, then their next-gen games are not going to look that much better than current-gen. And maybe even worse at times. Borderlands 3 (which has no ray tracing features) at 1080p/60fps/ultra settings requires a GTX 1660ti to *just* hit 60fps average (although medium settings would probably be fine for most people) and that's WITHOUT all the extra enemies and graphical effects that come with the temporary events and mayhem 10. Now consider a game like Control at 1080p/60fps with RTX on, phew.

I can definitely see mid-gen refreshes of the X (and maybe the S) once games start being designed for modern hardware. Which is kinda ironic when you think about it.

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strijd

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@navster15 true but Nvidia actually really set the bar for next gen. Even their entry level 3070 is going destroy both the ps5 and series x. I’m probably going to hold off buying a ps5 for as long as I can until they create something amazing I can’t get on pc like a bloodborne 2 or the 2nd ff7 remake

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colourful_hippie

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#54  Edited By colourful_hippie

@dsjwetrwete: Those resolution and framerate numbers listed from MS will only really be the targets for what the console could be capable of. It's up to devs to decide what kind of performance they want to target. Just like with any past cycle there will always be games that go for 30fps with pretty graphics, this cycle won't be any different. What I am hoping to see change is that the amount of high framerate games on consoles will continue to increase more and more than you would ever see in past generations.

I think MS has a solid platform here by providing a next gen option at a more than reasonable price. Too much processing power is getting wasted on hitting 4k target resolutions so I'm guessing this Series S will be more than capable when gaming at 1080p.

On a personal level as another PC gamer with high end hardware, I'm supremely excited for the dev scene now that some major caps on console hardware specs will be lifted in the CPU and memory storage department which means that next gen games will be able to soar that much higher on PC once things like MS's DirectStorage features start becoming a real thing in new games. This will eliminate one of the few remaining advantages consoles have such as their unified memory approach and gaming on an SSD will have a whole new experience beyond the typical 30%+ faster load times we've been used to for years now.

EDIT: Last thing I want to add is that now that MS has an incredible hardware platform to offer, the last piece of the puzzle is games. Game Pass is a great deal, but they need to start offering some true exclusives to drive excitement about the brand. I have zero use for most consoles but it is becauseof Sony's first party output that I will be getting a PS5 to play nothing but Sony exclusives.

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mikewhy

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#55  Edited By mikewhy

PC video cards have always trumped console performance, nothing new there. They're still almost twice as expensive as a Series S, and video card does not a system make. You'll need your CPU, ram, HDD, yada yada. Just let people like what they like, games are the important factor here.

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conmulligan

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@strijd said:

true but Nvidia actually really set the bar for next gen. Even their entry level 3070 is going destroy both the ps5 and series x. I’m probably going to hold off buying a ps5 for as long as I can until they create something amazing I can’t get on pc like a bloodborne 2 or the 2nd ff7 remake

The 3070 is $200 more than the Series S and likely as expensive as the Series X. They're not really comparable.

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navster15

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@strijd: I am genuinely curious, what does “setting the bar” actually mean in this case?

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OurSin_360

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#58  Edited By OurSin_360

Wait, 200$ more for a disk drive? Also, am I the only one who was super confused and thought they were talking about the "s" model that is already out lol. I was like wtf, I thought that was already that price or cheaper lol.

@strijd: I am confident they will, it will just be at the equivalent of medium settings on a pc, or with something like the nvidia scaling tech for rtx.

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colourful_hippie

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@mikewhy: Yeah, 30 Series blows these machines out of the water but people are missing the real upgrades these consoles will offer. A faster 8core CPU and an SSD. PC's of course more capable CPU's but right now the average gaming PC has a quad that will eventually need to be updated with an 8 core and the SSD console revelation will finally deliver a tighter bond between SSD and a video card's VRAM than ever before. So on one hand I'm excited for new consoles because of what it means for games on PC, but on the other hand I'm happy to see consoles offer a very compelling package in a small form factor and approachable price.

People are forgetting how woefully inadequate these current consoles were back when they first launched. Smartphones were outperforming their CPU's within a year or two of their release. At least these new ones can hold their own against PC hardware that is 2-3x more expensive.

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ToughShed

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#60  Edited By ToughShed

It seems like a smart business move. I dont care about the names but that may confuse people some.

I hope the consoles just hold up power wise from the start and the S isn't compromised in that regard. Tough to imagine it won't be, which is a downer.

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strijd

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@navaster15 @conmulligan , sorry I’m still trying figure out how these boards work. I’m getting email notifications for your responses but nothing shows up in the actual thread. Still says I’m the last person to have posted.. So I don’t know how to reply properly

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colourful_hippie

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@toughshed: The only differentiator between X and S from what info is out there is that the X has a beefy GPU to power 4K games and high framerates, and the S can do what the X can but at 1080p/1440p because they share the same CPU and SSD framework. Really curious to see how devs develop within those constraints because more or less it's like scaling for a way more reasonable range of PC's that only have two variations, not thousands.

If the CPU's were different then this launch would be fucked because the two boxes would pretty much be some kind of twisted multi step generational offering.

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colourful_hippie

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They really should axe the entire Xbox One line to avoid confusion for laymen consumers but it looks like that crock of shit One S will be on shelves for a while because MS wants to have a $100-150 offering

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ToughShed

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#64  Edited By ToughShed

@colourful_hippie: Thanks for the breakdown on that.

I'm mostly a PC gamer though am open to consoles. I find the way its now become a multiple release process kind of annoying. And of course many games are built to have to work on consoles as well so that limits things.

I am sure though that we will see other releases of Xbox Series _ and it can get confusing there. I played Control on a launch PS4 for example this gen and to me that's really not acceptable, and I'm not a snob on performance.

And agreed on the name. I don't care about names much at all but I find it confusing to talk about and I stay clued in to this stuff. I can't imagine a layman getting it. Even if you replace it on shelves it will certainly avoid purchasing confusion but a starkly different name gets through to people.

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strijd

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@navster15: umm Nvidia did with their 30xx cards. I have a 2080ti in my current pc which is considerably more powerful than both the new consoles. Then Nvidia wrecked the whole balance with their new entry level card for $500USD. I’m both excited and upset at the same time haha. RTX 3090 is supposedly more than double my 2080ti. It will do 8k with 60fps. I consider that next gen. Ps5 and series x are more like a 2060 super. They’re not even close

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navster15

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#66  Edited By navster15

@strijd: So a graphics card that costs the price of an entire console outperforms graphics card of said console. I fail to see how that is news. You pay more you get more. It’s been like that since time immemorial.

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Zelyre

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#67  Edited By Zelyre
@strijd said:

Let’s be real here after Nvidia’s announcement last week. These new consoles are no longer considered “next-gen”. These are catch up boxes haha :D and for any one that thinks any of the new consoles will do anything higher than native 4k30fps keep dreaming.

Eh, I mean I'm PC gaming or bust.

But consoles have always upscaled or done stuff in post to output specific resolutions- I don't see that changing. Checkerboard, dynamic resolution, some weird 1920x2160 native resolution that gets stretched out, or 1920x1080 upscaled.

Folks won't know some settings are tweaked to increase frame rate if they can't see what the settings are. Can you really half a draw distance if you couldn't adjust it in the first place?

As long as a gamer turns their box on, the input says 4k and the framerate is smooth and locked, how it got there isn't something that really matters for lots of folks.

Even in PC gaming land, I get a 3080. I'm still CPU constrained until I jump off my 5ghz 6700k. I'm now dropping in a new CPU, new motherboard, ram, the fastest NVME I can get, and we're now at $1600+

Then someone's going to put out a garbage port of Skryim and we're back to 1080p internal render with RTX off just to get an acceptable framerate on a 3080 because the majority of dev time was spent making sure it ran well on the consoles.

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strijd

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@navster15: uhh I never disagreed with that. For $500 though. What would you rather a ps5 that has zero new games or a new gpu that doubles its performance ?

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navster15

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@strijd: I mean, that’s assuming it’s a straight up card swap, and not a new computer system. And the premise of “no new games” is really shaky. The PS5 will have basically all the games that are coming to PC. If anything, it’s the graphics card that has “no new games”. At least PS5 has Spider-Man Miles Morales.

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strijd

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@navster15: by that I mean there will be no new games that require these consoles. They can already be played on pc and console platforms. Ps4 and Xbox one were built on pc architecture. So everything works on everything now. The performance and playability comes down to what you’re willing to buy

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navster15

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@strijd: I... what? I just gave you an example of a game that will only play on PS5, and now you’re saying everything works on everything? I genuinely don’t understand.

Look, if you want to go PC upgrade instead of new console, that’s fine. But don’t come out saying that a more expensive PC option is “setting the bar” when only a fraction of the PC user base will upgrade in the coming few years. The PS5 and Srries X are going to have a far greater impact on the current state of game development than new graphics cards.

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strijd

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#72  Edited By strijd

@navster15: wait, what do you mean?? what game are you talking about Spider-Man miles morales? That will run on a ps4 just fine. Isn’t that expansion just made on from the ps4 with the same game engine? Of course it can do 4k60. It’s old tech

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navster15

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@strijd: Per Sony, it’s a new game coming exclusively for PS5:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider-Man:_Miles_Morales

Not sure where you’re getting your info from.

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strijd

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@navster15: the launch of the pa5 is going to be just like the launch of the ps4 all over again. Super underwhelming with weak hardware and well passed the times again, but people willl still buy it. I’m really hoping Xbox gamepass and series x being cheaper in general makes such an impact that it wins over Sony. (For the record the only Xbox I bought was the 360), I got the ps3 and ps4 on launch , they don’t definitely don’t deserve the credit they got. Yuck

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strijd

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@navster15 how does that count? It’s an exclusive to that platform due to marketing deals. Not because it can’t run on other platforms. Like I said that will still work on a ps4 just fine but won’t because Sony deals. Really not selling the case to get a ps5

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warpr

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1. I think it's hideous. That circular vent makes it look like a cheap boombox you'd pick up at Chuck-e-Cheese for like 1000 tickets or something.

2. Microsoft naming conventions continue to be confounding. With Playstation, it's straightforward PS-> PS2 -> PS3 -> PS4 ->PS5. With Microsoft, it's just letter-salad. Like, which one is this again? Every time they put out a new version, I just get more and more confused about which console is which generation, at which price, and where it falls on the power spectrum. I know it isn't their intention, but it always makes me feel like they are trying to pull one over on me.

I think it looks fine.

I agree on the naming. Obviously we know Microsoft had to pick a silly name for the 360 because it didn't want to pit an "Xbox 2" against a "PlayStation 3". But with the half-step consoles things got fudged enough that they should have just called these new ones Xbox 5 :)

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navster15

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#77  Edited By navster15

@strijd: Ok, so first you say NVIDIA is better than the new consoles for selling a single component that costs as much as an entire system. When I point this out, you say the PS5 has “no games”. When I point out that that’s incorrect, it’s because of licensing deals and not tech. Your back must be getting sore from moving all these goal posts I suppose.

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strijd

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In conclusion if you’re on the fence about what next gen device to buy. It’s buy a 3070 and forget about the pa5 and series x :D

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Deathstriker

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#79  Edited By Deathstriker

It's a great price, but MS needs to give people a reason to want it, which should be video games. Them and Sony have such crappy launch line-ups there's no reason to get either this year ATM.

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colourful_hippie

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@strijd: Ok, so first you say NVIDIA is better than the new consoles for selling a single component that costs as much as an entire system. When I point this out, you say the PS5 has “no games”. When I point out that that’s incorrect, it’s because of licensing deals and not tech. Your back must be getting sore from moving all these goal posts I suppose.

At this point, he's coming off more like a troll than anything else so stop feeding him. The vast majority of devs will forever make games for the least common denominator which will always be consoles. PC will always be ahead of the pack but their insanely high performance hardware will never be fully taken advantage of until a new console refresh cycle that raises the performance floor which then leads to new games on PC's soaring to those higher levels.

Right now it doesn't matter how fast the new cards are unless you like playing and replaying your old PC game library....funnily enough this is nearly the exact sales pitch MS is making with the Series X but the main point is that you'd have trouble counting past one hand's worth of games that have been developed PC first over console. That rarely ever happens.

Also the way this guy is pretending how everyone already has a capable PC ready to be upgraded with a new video card is downright hilarious to the point of him basically being troll at this point.

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navster15

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dsjwetrwete

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#82  Edited By dsjwetrwete

According to the recent Steam survey, most PC gamers are using GTX 1050ti/1060-level GPUs. The Series S targets that market, but my own personal worry is that next-gen isn't going that to look that much different than current-gen. We'll eventually get full blown ray tracing (at least on PC) but for the next few years, it's current-gen's games at 60fps... which honestly is not the worse thing. And 1080p/1440p on a 4K TV does not look bad at all. (I'm more bothered about QC, my LG 48" came with a bunch of dead pixels)

On the flip side, VR is making strides. As someone who enjoyed Half-Life Alyx but whose face does not fit almost every headset available and thus couldn't finish it, there's definitely a future once headsets become smaller, lighter, and just more accommodating to different face types.

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isomeri

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#83  Edited By isomeri

@yyninja said:

The interesting part is that the Xbox Series S will be 1440p up to 120 FPS. There are no TVs that do 1440p @120FPS, so I guess Microsoft's play with the Series S is to appeal to people who don't mind 60FPS or people who have PC monitors and don't want to bother upgrading their PCs.

My LG C9 does do 1440p at 120FPS and I know there are other TVs that do it too.

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VincentVendetta

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Ok but... what about the games?

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isomeri

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Loading Video...

Looks like Microsoft have confirmed the release date as November 10th in this trailer.

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Humanity

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#86  Edited By Humanity

Honestly I'm starting to wonder if maybe it wouldn't be a good idea to switch out my XB1X for one of these since the price is pretty good. I think a lot of existing games would benefit from the SSD and I can like wait a year for those Series X games before I even think of upgrading to the bigger console. It's going to be smaller and take up less room, probably quieter, the dashboard will probably finally run quicker, and technically it will be able to play all those Series X games as well albeit at a lower setting. For the first year it seems like a decent investment if you have extra money lying around.

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lego_my_eggo

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Ain't no-one gonna mention how this thing is a slider away from looking like a DJ Hero controller? Just me?

This comparison so far is the best i have seen.

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Shindig

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"I'm afraid I can't let you do that, Dave."

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dsjwetrwete

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#89  Edited By dsjwetrwete

@humanity: I think if you want to play current-gen games at 60fps, go for it. That in itself is a major leap in immersion and it's the reason why I mainly game on PC.

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colourful_hippie

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@humanity: This is a pretty good point. I primarily play on PC but I also have a One X mainly for backcompat and as a glorified Rock Band game station. A smaller, potentially more efficient form of that wouldn't be so bad. Even if it turns out that the S will have a weaker GPU than the One X I wouldn't care because I don't seriously game on a console anyways

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The_Nubster

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@brian_ said:

Finally... a video game console I can grill some beef on.

Excuse me, George Foreman's Lean Mean Video Game Grilling Machine, the PS3, would like to have a word with you.

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sweep

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#92 sweep  Moderator

@isomeri said:

I'm sure that Microsoft are losing quite a bit of money selling the XSX for €499 and everything I've heard has made the PS5 seem quite pricey to manufacture too.

My understanding is that all console manufacturers expect to take a hit on the hardware with the understanding that they're going to make that up in game sales and subscriptions over the following years. That's a fairly safe bet, when you consider they control the only available storefront on there, plaster it with ads, and harvest the shit out of all the data on your home network as well. They're getting a good deal.

I expect them to lean extremely hard into their Game Pass style distribution model moving forward and that's also going to work extremely well for them.

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yyninja

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#93  Edited By yyninja

@isomeri said:

@yyninja said:

The interesting part is that the Xbox Series S will be 1440p up to 120 FPS. There are no TVs that do 1440p @120FPS, so I guess Microsoft's play with the Series S is to appeal to people who don't mind 60FPS or people who have PC monitors and don't want to bother upgrading their PCs.

My LG C9 does do 1440p at 120FPS and I know there are other TVs that do it too.

The LG C9 is a 4K TV though, so you're intentionally down rezing to get better framerate. I was talking about a screen that is native 1440p @120 FPS which I don't think exist in TVs but a lot of gaming monitors have those specs.

In any case if you can afford a LG C9, I would definitely get the Series X over the S because it will better utilize the 4K resolution.

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Lava

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I've been thinking about this move all day and it still comes off as an incredibly intelligent play by Microsoft. To release something as "Next Gen" and be completely upfront about its actual power capacity is very good marketing. They will effectively be selling the cheapest "Next Gen" console. My partner has argued with me that 1440p isn't "next gen" but I don't think 4k matters that much to an everyday person. I myself am a PS4 owner and will be getting a PS5 as that's where my friends are planning on continuing to play. I also care about 4k and being able to play my PS4 games so a PS5 makes sense for me; however, I can totally see a large segment of the audience seeing the Series S as the cheapest next gen option and going for it. I am very interested to see how Sony prices the two versions of the PS5. My guess is now $499 and $449. Heck, they may try and go $399 on the disc-less version.

The two very different strategies are a fascinating thing to observe. Honestly the PS5 hardware reveal trailer still gives me goosebumps. And today's trailer was really good too! New hardware, it's cool! Check out our crazy animations. I work in marketing so all of this stuff is fascinating to me from a product launch perspective. I used to be a console wars guy but have completely left that behind. I like what I like and other people like what they like and that's rad too.

This is all very, very interesting. Looking forward to listening to the Bombcast to hear what the duders think.

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plan6

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#95  Edited By plan6

I do love that one of the responses to this is "Just get the new Nvidia card, these systems are not next gen any more", as if these systems were ever designed to compete in that market. As if PC gaming is this fun happy land where we don't have to deal with constant bullshit like USB headsets just not working with discord for no reason(I may have spent over an hour and a half on a phone helping a buddy this weekend).

Also, to quote Patrick: "I think people are underestimating how many people absolutely do not give a shit about 4K." People didn't buy new TVs in between 2008 and 2015 because they HD. They bought them because they had bigger screens, were flat, easier to move and also happened to be HD.

Edit: Also, I'm super sure most folks are not 120 FPS or GTFO. And I like how that number keeps going up. Soon we will be demanding 240 FPS, like totally reasonable people in a hobby. Its like me demanding every car I buy double the gas milage until I can drive across the country in one tank.

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Humanity

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#96  Edited By Humanity

@colourful_hippie: As far as I understand it the Series S is supposed to also have a better GPU than the current Xbox One X - or at least on par with it? Surely if they are targeting 120FPS and have some form of Raytracing available it will have to be better in some regards than current hardware which in this generation is still struggling to put out a steady 60 on most big games.

I always end up getting both consoles anyway because I want to play the exclusives so this might be a good case for getting the Series S for some casual gaming on multiplatform games and splurge on a PS5 for the first party exclusives with all the fancy bells and whistles that those studios usually deliver. My biggest issue during this generation wasn't that Sekiro didn't look nice enough but that the framerate couldn't keep up. If we can really enter an age of console gaming where absolutely every single title has a rocksteady 60FPS that will be a big leap forward.

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isomeri

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@yyninja: Right, there certainly are no native 1440p TV sets out there as far as I know. I think the goal though is to scale that 1440p resolution up to 4K as smoothly as possible in the same way that the PS4 Pro achieves 4K resolutions through checkerboarding etc. So no native 4K for the pixel counters out there, but still should look pretty nice on a 4K TV. I also guess that they have to use the 1440p number in marketing to make it seem like a leap from the 1080p games of the last generation. The numbers must go higher.

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chaostime

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@strijd: Your Console vs PC attitude is toxic.

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strijd

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#99  Edited By strijd

@chaostime: yeh sorry about that, me and a best mate of mine are constantly bickering about whats better. we enjoy stirring each other up and trolling each other on this topic. i forget people on the internet these days are so easily offended by everything, no matter the subject. I'll try show some more restraint in the future with people i don't know. I was just having a little bit of fun trolling console fans. But in all honestly I'm not trying to seriously upset or offend any one. And i wish everyone here well. console wars and pc vs console debates are so silly. I feel like its an okay subject to troll about instead of something serious like politics or the state of the world, where I wouldn't dare have the same attitude. @navster15 handled it like a champ. I feel like hes doing fine

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navster15

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Look, this upgrade a PC stuff is not really practical advice for a lot of people, and I find it weird that everyone is so gung ho on it. I have a gaming PC myself, and the one thing people never talk about is how bad the couch-TV experience is with a PC. First, you will need a (wireless) mouse and keyboard to navigate the dang thing, which just clutters up one’s living room. Of course, you can go Steam only and use Big Picture Mode, but inevitably that will crash out or a Windows prompt will pop up and you’re back to searching for a mouse. And suspend mode is really not a thing on PC, so you’re stuck either leaving the game on or going through its boot process each time you want to play. And then there’s also the usual BS about driver fiddling and random troubleshooting that has you going down obscure reddit threads. The list goes on.

That’s not to say PC’s aren’t worth it. They can be great if you’re willing to do the bulk of your gaming at a desk with a good monitor. But a lot of people (including myself, increasingly) just want a good couch-TV experience. In which case, consoles really are the only practical choice.