Sure, I get it. You want to make things realistic. I understand. No really, I do. There's a certain satisfaction in realism in videogame as well.

However, are ice skate car physics real? No. They are not. If I take a turn at 30 miles per hour, my car is not going to fishtail into a 180.

However, if you are in cover, wouldn't it be best to act frantically and fast? Yes. Yes it would, actually. You would probably be moving along cover faster, and probably shooting while moving against a wall. Sadly, Niko Bellic isn't in a rush to get out of tight situations. If moving to different pieces of cover, Niko would rather walk slowly or inconsistently run to another piece of cover all the while getting his ass filled with hot lead.

I really do feel that GTAIV is a serious step backwards. The city is the equivalent in density of Vice City, with more flashing lights. All of the things that were all right with San Andreas were broken, and things such as the combat, which should've been fixed, became even more broken because of the added layers of inconsistency and frustration. Somebody should let Rockstar know that adding more layers to a particular mechanic in a videogame does not fix it, rather than bloating it, rendering it almost useless.

Discuss.

I completely agree. The fact that some sites were awarding GTAIV a perfect 10 is, in my opinion, sad. GTAIV lost a lot of the depth of the gameplay of the previous games in favor of, what, an obnoxious and ultimately worthless relationship-maintenance mini-game? The amount of shit to do in the game is quite astounding, actually, but all of it amounts to an ultimately incomplete game experience.

I've been a huge fan of Grand Theft Auto ever since GTA2. I've carefully studied the evolution of the series, so that's why when I heard all of the praises of a "changed cover system and combat mechanic" I got super excited. What do I get? Haphazard cover movement as well as Niko squating like he's trying to take a dump. Everything is just very slow and sludgy feeling.

And yeah, the whole "interaction with other people" is a bit cool, but ultimately, when you realize that those people are still just AI, it takes you out of the experience.

To say it is a step back is quite unfair, I would say that tghe creation of the city itself with no loading times is really quite an achievement. The city is also much more densley detailed and intricate than vice city, just look at all the little alleyways and nooks and crannys of the game and its quite amazing. Sure the combat is not as smooth as a call of duty but is definetly quite solid and a vast improvement over san andreas. One thing I dont think GTAIV improved on that much was the story, as I did not feel as though it was as good as reviewers bvelieved it to be. The characters and voice ascting was excellent as always but I did not feel the story pulling me in that much, I found exploring the amazing city much more rewarding. One more grype I had with the game was the radio stations. The lack of a "true" dance/house station is really dissapointing and I feel this is a station they should look at in the future. Having said all that the game was a pretty amazing achievment with some of the best ragdoll physics Ive seen.

Those things are definitely a pain in the ass, but in my opinion GTA IV is a serious step forward.

Yea it was a huge donwgrade

I didn't find the story telling that compelling either. I mean, yeah it's good but it has your typical, "x happens, then you work for y, y betrays you, then c hates you, then c becomes from your friend, etc. etc."

I dunno.  I see your arguments, but I'm not necessarily in collusion with them.

"Ice Skate Physics": Thirty miles per hour is pretty fast for corner-turning.  I know I've never tried to turn as sharply as possible while traveling at speeds nearing thirty miles an hour.  Twenty, maybe.  Even that causes a sizable skid and the sense that your inertia is teetering on the edge of calamity.  For the game, I think Rockstar was looking to create a driving system that felt both "realistic" and "cinematic."  In fact, I would venture to say that the last adjective, "cinematic," is exactly what they were hoping to achieve with the car physics.  Every vehicle in the game can spin one-hundred eighty degrees with the mashing of a button and the leaning of the joystick. 

"Frantic While Safe": You've almost sold me on this point.  Almost, but not because of anything you've actually said.  Moreso because I'm aware the cover system leaves a little something to be desired.  Sure, Niko moves slowly, but I feel like Niko knows what he's doing, even if I, the player, do not.  Remember: Niko is an ex-military type.  This guy is sure-footed in combat situations, and he is not about to lose his calm just because a few lead raindrops have skimmed the stone he's hiding behind.  Where the cover system is faulty, however, is in close quarters -- there doesn't seem to be an easy way for Niko to detach from cover, and pairing his stilted cover movements with the (still, though less than usual) haphazard targeting system is an equation whose sum is irritation. 

Is GTA a step in the wrong direction?  No, not at all.  The game is the first outing on the newest generation of platforms, and it was ambitious, indeed.  The city is hyper-dense, the locales are -- arguably -- less interesting than the vast, empty deserts and hill top forests of San Andreas, and there is a serious case of boredom after the game's story is wrapped up. 

However, GTA IV, analogous to the relationship shared by Oblivion and Morrowind, is a more streamlined experience for a larger, hungrier consumer mouth than it has ever had to feed before.  No more micro-management.  No more pseudo-Kung Fu.  No more mandatory eating. 

So, ultimately.  Mneh?  Eye of the Beholder?  Eye of the Tiger?

I take it you have never actually shot a gun before. If you were to run around all crazy and not act calm, you would hit zero. IMO I think the combat is some of the most real combat I have ever used in a video game.  As for your driving statement, if you are down to 30 or so in GTA4 before you start your turn and then you hit the gas pedal smoothly you won't fish tail, just like a real car. IMO R* nailed the realism in this game more than any game created before it.  If you see that all as a step back then, to each his own, but I see GTA4 as the first real "next-gen" game created so far.

My biggest issue is how worthless the money is. Most players will have upwards of $700,000 in their possession after completing the game, but nothing to spend it on. The ability to buy some expensive new cars, or a big piece of real estate after finishing the game (similar to how you can buy an Infinite Rocket Launcher in Resident Evil 4 after finishing the game) would have been a pretty cool addition and would've made earning all of that money worthwhile.

I'm not entirely sure what I want back in a Grand Theft Auto title. I mean, I really enjoyed them getting back to basics of, for the most part, consistently running down guys, beating the shit out of them and/or shotting them. You never have to do tedious chasing of stupid stuff and the chasing you do do, is at least exciting and kept me somewhat hooked.

I have to challange your comment on the driving cinematic. Cinematic is not the equivalent of constantly smashing into things and having trouble keeping up. Cinematic is the equivalent of unrealistic driving physics which lets you stay on the foes tail all the way until the end. If you are constantly having to adjust, and doing things such as barely tapping the handbrake and slightly turning the analog stick, it constantly takes you out of the experience. There's nothing cinematic about readjusting the camera, the car and the controls after every turn and slight weave of other cars.

Sure those San Andreas hilltops sure are boring, but having a semi-inner city area with just the same amount of density as cardboard boxes lined up with some flashy lights and signage up doesn't constitute a dense city. Did I expect every place to be open to walk in to? Nope. But more to do in these so-praised "dense areas" would've been nice.

I agree to the most part. Although I sunk 100 hours and got the 100%, it just didnt have the same feel as it's predecessors.

It will be interesting to see what R* does with the DLC.

I don't know, i think no deadspots is cool.

Everything about this game seems like a step foward.  Don't get onto R* for not putting enough "stuff".  They put plenty into the game.  Wait for the next GTA incarnation for more..."stuff".  By stuff I mean buying houses, more realism, more cars, more freedom.  They achieved plenty in the game.  10 to me doesn't mean "perfect"  to me it means DAMN GOOD.

"I'm not entirely sure what I want back in a Grand Theft Auto title. I mean, I really enjoyed them getting back to basics of, for the most part, consistently running down guys, beating the shit out of them and/or shotting them. You never have to do tedious chasing of stupid stuff and the chasing you do do, is at least exciting and kept me somewhat hooked.

I have to challange your comment on the driving cinematic. Cinematic is not the equivalent of constantly smashing into things and having trouble keeping up. Cinematic is the equivalent of unrealistic driving physics which lets you stay on the foes tail all the way until the end. If you are constantly having to adjust, and doing things such as barely tapping the handbrake and slightly turning the analog stick, it constantly takes you out of the experience. There's nothing cinematic about readjusting the camera, the car and the controls after every turn and slight weave of other cars.

Sure those San Andreas hilltops sure are boring, but having a semi-inner city area with just the same amount of density as cardboard boxes lined up with some flashy lights and signage up doesn't constitute a dense city. Did I expect every place to be open to walk in to? Nope. But more to do in these so-praised "dense areas" would've been nice.
"

The transition between GTA 3 to GTA Vice City is the same equivalent for the transition between GTA San Andreas and GTA 4

I just wish it still had the whacky attitude of GTA III or Vice City.

"I just wish it still had the whacky attitude of GTA III or Vice City.
"

If you are throttling the car as you are turning a corner, it is a proven fact that because of inertia you well have more trouble making the turn. It will be a wider, ugly turn...no matter how fast you're going. People that have actually driven a car can understand this, as I always release the gas pedal to turn, even when I'm not slowing down at all.

I don't agree, and I won't go into why because it will just anger me more than this thread already has.

Honestly the combat system in VC was completely broken. They fixed it up in SA and GTAIV basicly has a refined version of the SA engine. As for the ice skate physics, I don't believe they were trying to make it ultra realistic even though some cars definately can spin out at 30mph. They were trying to make it cinematic like you were watching some cop-chase / heist film or something and it does that very well. Really, if you had problems with cars spinning out or the combat then you're propably just not very good at playing the game.. I aggree about the friendship system being useless though, the minigames are fun and all but it's not fun to pickup, drive your friend and drive back again and again. Also, density of vice city? really? Maybe you should go back and play it because I have it installed atm and IV is way way way bigger that VC. I can drive around VC without problems without a map I know it really well and I have already played GTAIV more than VC but I don't know my around it atall. You should try counting the streets on a VC map and GTAIV because GTAIV's map is huge.

Dude, I know how a car works. I've never gased around a turn. I always break ahead or slow down, but sometimes, it's just hard to make that turn.

To each his own, I haven't played it personally so I can't really judge but the things you stated seem like quite minor issues in a game so massive

I think its a great game, but I do agree that it didn't warrant a perfect score from the sites that did give it. But its definitely a great game.

I also don't think that it warranted a perfect 10, but I don't think that it was a step backwards, just a step in a different direction. For myself, I would have liked this to somehow have had different difficulty settings because with the new cover mode, the campaign and story was just way too easy. Switching from target to target felt pretty much similar to past games. I was disappointed in GTAIV at first, the driving physics did feel messed up and the city didn't seem that huge. However as I got into the story and the game, the driving became second nature. On my second playthrough I have found that the city really is so in depth and amazing. The first time I played I just wanted to get through the story, shoot some dudes, play minigames, etc. The second time  I was in no rush and sometimes I just get Niko to walk to locations and it's freakin amazing. The city is so incredibly detailed and there are so many alleyways, small businesses, the pedestrians act like real people, it's intense.

I agree with the sentiment that it is different to its predecessors, but this isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's just different. GTA3 was a huge shock to me and my mate who really enjoyed the early top down GTA games back on the Playstation 1. If they hadn't changed then we wouldn't have had GTA3, Vice City or San Andreas. Who knows where this direction will go?

Things I didn't like:
Friends constantly calling wanting to do things, and getting punished for playing the game the way I want to (in a gta no less) because I'd rather cause havoc instead of playing pool with some stupid AI character.

the music is garbage for the most part.

not being able to customize cars...unless you count shooting between the fender and the tire to lower the car.

online is pretty bad for me at least...this is the game I have the most trouble with no problem on other games.

clothes selection sucks...don't get me wrong it isn't a huge issue but still I have to look at this character so much he might as well look how I want him to.

overall less fun...I used to love just playing around by myself after I finished the game but now with this gta I rely on the multiplayer aspect and can no longer go it alone...the lack of cheats and a game shark might have played a factor.

hopefully Saint's Row 2 will be more fun.

To be honest, I am forcing myself to complete the missions right now. I sort of wonder if they spent too much time going for realism and did not put enough effort into making fun gameplay.  The missions are VERY repetitive. Chase this person with Vehicule type " ___ ".  They could have done so much more in the uniquness of missions.  I think that their next installement should concentrate more on unique, fun and memorable missions.

I understand that some missions will repeat and be similar but this is where you need to use your imagination and let it run wild. Sometimes what sounds like the dumbest idea for a mission turns out to be the most fun.

I have to agree on the car thing, i hate driving anywhere in the game i get a cab unless im online or have to drive. Its so horrible how every time you turn you do a spin or what ever.

I like GTA III and VC more than GTAIV.  I felt like RS spent too much time on Art Direction and making TV shows, or an "Internet" or making their own products like "Sprunk" cola.  Instead of making content that was interactive.  Rampages have been removed.  Buying property was removed.  Hidden packages were replaced with... Flying rat-pigeons?  Which I suppose would be okay if you were rewarded for killing them.  Instead, however, you're rewarded only after killing all 200 of them.  (as opposed to being rewarded in increments earning a lowly pistol to body armor to grenades and finally a big fat rocket launcher)

I think GTA4 is a bit of a step back simply because it is NOT a step forward. It doesn't take too many steps back, but it is just disappointing to see there are still no mission checkpoints and that the template for missions has not evolved AT ALL since GTA3. A couple of really awesome missions aside (4 leaf clover), most of the time you're still just chasing dudes or doing fed-ex shit. Especially near the end of the game, there is just way too much repetition in the misisons. I liked the story and the characters, but towards the end, I just wanted to be done already so I didn't have to chase some guys through the city YET AGAIN. If the next GTA is going to be like this again, I might just not get it, because I'm pretty tired of it.

And yeah, there isn't nearly enough fun and mayhem to be had once you've finished it. You can spawn a helicopter and get some weapon cheats, but that's about it. And 8 rockets max? What's up with that? It's just a bummer, to me.

I sort of agree, but I have no problems with the driving. Once you practise you see why they made it more difficult. Its much more satisfying to go really fast as you know you must be careful and brake right, otherwise you mess up.

I dont mind that too much. The cover system is fine, you leen, peak and shoot, plus sometimes you can make him dive to another piece of cover.

I hate all the social missions though, they are not needed. I dont care to play bowling, darts and pool on a console, if I did want to, I would do it on the wii.

Yeah after I beat it the first time, I was like, "maybe, for some stupid reason, I just didn't 'get it'." This is not the case. After you've played other games that do a cover system better, past GTA games that did driving better and games that do aiming better, I don't have a need for GTAIV in my life.

I am not sure that it was over rated for that reason, I mean the whole car thing was not a make or break part of the game, but man was it annoying, I still hate it since its just so doggy going around corners,  I really actually just liked III's vehiclar handling just fine back in 2001 which was 7 YEARS AGO!!!

While the Physics engine is nice and all I really wanted the business aspect of the game back.

the game is good but it's not quite what i was looking for in a gta game. i miss going into the fauna to do some major jumps (SA)

Yes.. I miss the last GTAs...

GTA IV lacks content. The city, big as it is, just feels empty to me. And the extra DLC for the 360 should be released sooner than early 2009.

GTA IV is a huge step forward. There is no way that it is a step back. First off, I have no problems with the driving and only have control problems with certain cars. Second, what is your problem with the cover. I've had no problems moving fast from one place to the next. That is what holding or tapping the run button is for. Third the combat overall in much improved, both the auto aim and free aim work great and I have no problems with the gun combat. Yea, the hand to hand combat isn't the best but that is what guns are for. Forth, there is nothing wrong with the size of the city. Liberty City was known to be smaller the San Andreas (which is a state) for a very long time. With the incredible amount of detail that went into the city I think that this is the best city in the gta series. Not only does it look fantastic but the interaction with other people is fantastic and there are many interesting places to goto.

Now, I wouldn't call this game perfect by any means, personally I don't think any game is. But to say that the game takes a huge step back is an injustice to the game. Its takes a huge step forward, not only in gameplay and graphics but personally this is by far the best story since Vice City.

If you don't like GTA IV thats fine, not everyone likes the same games. But, I do hope you realize that you will see many post like this for posting this topic here.

things I dont like about GTA IV
-no taxicab missions
-no firetruck missions
-no drive thru (come on now)
-no police missions
-no ambulance missions
-no car school
-no airplane school
-no turn signals
-no more buying property
-no more garages
-the cover system sucks

If you ask me, GTA4 was just empty.    What they should've done, is held it back to the fall, release it as it was released back in April, but had expansion packs available for both consoles ala Burnout.  Expand what you can do in the city.  I know the 360 has the DLC, but that probably won't equate to much, and will more than likely be overpriced.  GTA's original premise was to mess around.  With GTA4, it was more about a story, not much else.

i agree with some of ur points but i think the story is amazing as well as the city itself.

i could beat it twice before i found it boring....i did both endings, but doing it for a third time is kinda lame, but i have nothing better to do

This guy obviously didn't beat the game. The cover is flawed yes, but it isn't something to say the franchise took a step backward because of it. The realism in the driving i'd imagine is very accurate. When you turn, just like driving a normal sports car, it's EASY in FAST out. GTA IV is the same way, so it must mean you are bad a driver in the game (only conclusion), for being bad though, you ultimately blame the developers for your lack of skill? About the cover again, Nico bellic, being slow as he is, is smart and logical, because if he ran his way around cover, no bullets would ever hit the enemies. The story in the game is top notch, graphics are impressive, not great, but very good, the mechanics are wonderous, and the presentation is the best in game history. People are agreeing with you because no one else it, so it makes them seem kitch and cool. Nice try, but I think all the crap you play doesn't even come close to the epicness of this title.

Im LOLing on how there are comments on this thread  that are getting negative responses because of GTA fanboys

The Game is alright the engine that it runs on is impressive but at the end of the day gamplay and fun is where it comes down to!
The Game is not a perfect 10 because Its missing such things as parchutes RPG elments and planes that were used in san andreas,
You cant drive like crazy in previous GTA games, some missions are painfully repetive and The Friends system is a joke. I give it an 7.5 or 8 at least

Hmmm i see theres already a GTA fanboy with a sniper rifle across the street trying to take me out

KID dont do it! you still have your whole life to grow up

I don't think GTAIV is a step backwards at all. I've completed it once and I'm on my second play-through now, and it has yet to get boring for me. In response to everybody's complaints about the game: I found that the calls from friends to do activities became less frequent as the game progressed. The cover system is, in my opinion, really well implemented (not perfect, but it's certainly a step in the right direction). Euphoria is excellent and I love the new driving physics. The story is hands-down the best of the series so far. Perhaps most importantly, the core gameplay is intact, and has been refined into a more enjoyable experience.

To people like TheSnakeOfWar, who miss the ludicrous excesses of San Andreas, I think you should stop for a moment and consider how that would pan out in the new Liberty City. It simply wouldn't work, and the great atmosphere the game manages to create would be shattered. I loved San Andreas because it took everything great about the last-gen instalments in the GTA franchise and took it to ridiculous new heights. GTAIV shouldn't be compared to San Andreas because it's not attempting to do the same thing; if you're looking for something that is, try Saints Row 2. GTAIV should be judged on its own merits rather than the merits of its predecessors. If you can do that, you'll see that it's without doubt one of the best games of recent times.

Those are problems in GTA IV, but they sure don't make the game a step back. 

"GTA IV is a huge step forward. There is no way that it is a step back. First off, I have no problems with the driving and only have control problems with certain cars. Second, what is your problem with the cover. I've had no problems moving fast from one place to the next. That is what holding or tapping the run button is for. Third the combat overall in much improved, both the auto aim and free aim work great and I have no problems with the gun combat. Yea, the hand to hand combat isn't the best but that is what guns are for. Forth, there is nothing wrong with the size of the city. Liberty City was known to be smaller the San Andreas (which is a state) for a very long time. With the incredible amount of detail that went into the city I think that this is the best city in the gta series. Not only does it look fantastic but the interaction with other people is fantastic and there are many interesting places to goto.

Now, I wouldn't call this game perfect by any means, personally I don't think any game is. But to say that the game takes a huge step back is an injustice to the game. Its takes a huge step forward, not only in gameplay and graphics but personally this is by far the best story since Vice City.

If you don't like GTA IV thats fine, not everyone likes the same games. But, I do hope you realize that you will see many post like this for posting this topic here.

"

I think GTA4 was a step forward in some areas of the game, but overall, I played San Andreas for over 600 hours. For GTA4, I've barley broken 80. The world isn't a lot of fun to mess around with. There was no planes so I can't do crazy tricks, activities are harder to set up, and overall it's just more difficult to make your own fun. GTA4 is supposed to be, and is a lot more serious of a game than the other three so far, but they really made some bad GAMEPLAY decisions. And let's be honest, even those of us who love GTA4's story, the gameplay is not as good as it could've been. Here's a list of things they should've changed:

-Cheats in the cell phone. Why? I think anyone who mastered the cheats of San Andreas or Vice City learned the technique of jamming in the button combination on the fly and continuing to have fun
-Cover system needs work. Right now it's virtually useless, you can't reload and move in cover at the same time, and you're really slow anyway, so it's better to duck down and pray you don't get shot instead of actually sticking to the wall.
-Your phone has too much power. Races are through the phone, mini games like bowling or darts are through the phone, and it's not just like "I'll meet you here" it's more difficult than that. You need to find someone who wants to do what you want to do. So you can't go bowling with packie or something like that. Then you have to pick them up, and they could be ANYWHERE. Then you have to drive to the closest place, which is probably miles away from their pickup point, and then drop them off. It's annoying and unnesscery.

That's all I could think of off the top of my head. But after the storyline ends, there's really no point playing the game anymore.