So long competitive Halo?

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TheLoveAbove

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#1  Edited By TheLoveAbove

Every new Halo game, they make it more and more accessible for "bad kids" to be good. Halo 1, if you weren't good with the pistol, you sucked. Halo 2, if you weren't good with the BR, you sucked. Halo 3, you needed to be good with the BR, but they gave you an over powered AR spawn that can kill you with a few shots and a melee.  They also gave you equipment to hide in.  Halo: Reach.... they are letting you spawn with the equipment.. Seriously? letting players spawn with a bubble shield or Invis? And they are making maps based on the assumption a lot of players will be using the Jet Pack (so long small symmetrical MLG maps). 
 
What ever happened to players having to earn their kills? The #1 game on XBL is Modern Warfare 2. And the majority of kills you get on that game come from Predator missiles or harrier strikes. You don't really have to pull the trigger once you get 5 kills, just lie in the corner and wait. 
 
Halo: Reach seems to be following the same formula. Instead of having teams fight over powerups, and letting the team with the better strategy earn it.... they let everyone spawn with it. Their reasoning?  "It seemed in Halo 3, players would pick up equipment, and die before using it".... Well yeah, thats called the other team being better. So how do they fix the problem of "the better team gets the powerups/ equipment".... they let everyone spawn with it.       
 
Say goodbye to "alright, invis spawns in 2, Overshield spawns in 4". And say hello to "alright guys, im turning on my invis now and im going to wait around the corner with the shotgun I spawned with".  
 
We'll see if my expectations are met with the Beta. But I have a feeling that Reach will bring in/ make happy, a lot of new Halo players. And the competitive players will be scratching their heads in disappointed. 

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Crono11

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#2  Edited By Crono11

What happened to playing games for fun? That's what I like to do.

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luce

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#3  Edited By luce

Beta
 
They'll balance it out eventually

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TheLoveAbove

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#4  Edited By TheLoveAbove
@crono11 said:
" What happened to playing games for fun? That's what I like to do. "
To some people, being competitive is fun :-)
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penguindust

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#5  Edited By penguindust

I remember these same complaints when Halo introduced regenerating health.  "They made this game for babies! You should have to search for a health pack or just don't get shot!  Really, what the fuck?  Find someplace to hide and you're back to full health?...And what is this shield crap?"  Ask anyone who played Counter-Strike nearly a decade ago what they thought of competitive Halo, and chances are it wasn't much.
 
Players got used to the changes and moved on or they didn't play.  That's how it goes.

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ShaneDev

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#6  Edited By ShaneDev

Your paraphrasing was bad there as he stated right after that players waited for the perfect time to use the equipment since it was only single use and would die before they ever got that perfect time, which applies to all player at some time or another, i think he is right and beside I think Bungie stated that in the final game they would have a classic no loadout game type. I personally can't wait to use the new loadout abilities, my only fear is if they are balanced improperly it will ruin the game.

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EpicSteve

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#7  Edited By EpicSteve

I'm sure the guys at Bungie are talented enough to balance all these new components so you kids can enjoy your competitions. Besides, nothing is wrong with giving players more equipment for variety. If everyone has access to the same stuff, isn't it balanced? It sound like you should stick to Quake 3.

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Baljot187

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#8  Edited By Baljot187

This is specious reasoning all over the place. Just from the 35 minutes of footage I saw on this site and another 12 minutes I saw over at GamesRadar, the game already seems balanced with counters for all the armour abilities, or equipment as you call it. The invisibility isn't total, and it definitely doesn't last as long as Active Camo did in any of the previous games did. The walkthrough on GamesRadar showed that a person using the invisibility who isn't using it smartly would be pretty visible to everyone else.  
The personal shield/turtling ability can be really effective, but can also leave you really vulnerable. As Bungie's Luke Smith pointed out, people are learning new strategies with the personal shield, like turn it on and hope that the dude who was shooting at you gets killed by one of your teammates. These abilities hardly make you as invincible as you're making it sound. The jetpack makes you a giant flying target, the Elite roll could take some practice and getting used to, and there are others that I'm forgetting at the moment.  
The very second and third sentences in your post show contrary you are to your own point - Halo and Halo 2 were hardly balanced if one weapon dominated all the others. In Halo Reach it seems like every weapon and ability has a successful counter to it. Someone dominating with the DMR or the pistol? There's the needle rifle to combat that.  
 
This is just Bungie trying to bring Halo into the modern age, because their multiplayer was archaic as fuck.  
Also LMAO at this statement 

 What ever happened to players having to earn their kills? The #1 game on XBL is Modern Warfare 2. And the majority of kills you get on that game come from Predator missiles or harrier strikes. You don't really have to pull the trigger once you get 5 kills, just lie in the corner and wait.     

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themartyr

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#9  Edited By themartyr
@EpicSteve said:
" I'm sure the guys at Bungie are talented enough to balance all these new components so you kids can enjoy your competitions. Besides, nothing is wrong with giving players more equipment for variety. If everyone has access to the same stuff, isn't it balanced? It sound like you should stick to Quake 3. "
This guy knows what's going on. Bungie are not exactly debuting this franchise. They have single-handedly written the rulebook for console-based shooters. Anything they're doing or trying is highly unlikely to fail. 
Bear in mind that this beta is not exactly 'we've made this game, is it okay?', but rather 'we've tested the heck out of this, is there anything you can do that we didn't?' 
I have no doubt in my mind that Reach will be excellent.
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Kbm600

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#10  Edited By Kbm600
@Baljot187 said:
" This is specious reasoning all over the place. Just from the 35 minutes of footage I saw on this site and another 12 minutes I saw over at GamesRadar, the game already seems balanced with counters for all the armour abilities, or equipment as you call it. The invisibility isn't total, and it definitely doesn't last as long as Active Camo did in any of the previous games did. The walkthrough on GamesRadar showed that a person using the invisibility who isn't using it smartly would be pretty visible to everyone else.  
The personal shield/turtling ability can be really effective, but can also leave you really vulnerable. As Bungie's Luke Smith pointed out, people are learning new strategies with the personal shield, like turn it on and hope that the dude who was shooting at you gets killed by one of your teammates. These abilities hardly make you as invincible as you're making it sound. The jetpack makes you a giant flying target, the Elite roll could take some practice and getting used to, and there are others that I'm forgetting at the moment.  
The very second and third sentences in your post show contrary you are to your own point - Halo and Halo 2 were hardly balanced if one weapon dominated all the others. In Halo Reach it seems like every weapon and ability has a successful counter to it. Someone dominating with the DMR or the pistol? There's the needle rifle to combat that.  
 
This is just Bungie trying to bring Halo into the modern age, because their multiplayer was archaic as fuck.  
Also LMAO at this statement 

 What ever happened to players having to earn their kills? The #1 game on XBL is Modern Warfare 2. And the majority of kills you get on that game come from Predator missiles or harrier strikes. You don't really have to pull the trigger once you get 5 kills, just lie in the corner and wait.     

"
I find that statement to have been very true with my time in Modern Warfare 2. Maybe it was just just the matches I was thrown into, but every match pretty much consisted of that.
 
I don't have any qualms against the additions seen in the beta. We also shouldn't assume anything will be imbalanced by the main game, there may be a wealth of features we're not seeing yet that may make everyone think differently.
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Quacktastic

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#11  Edited By Quacktastic

It has to be fun first.  If the majority of people buying your game aren't having much fun you need to do something about it.
The people who were feeling frustrated will maybe feel less so and the people who are really good, will still be really good.

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Siphillis

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#12  Edited By Siphillis

This is not a trend exclusive to the Halo series (See Modern Warfare 2, Brawl)
 
Besides, from a designer's perspective, "dumbing down" multiplayer is brilliant.  It ensures that the maximum number of people enjoy your game at a given time.

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TheLoveAbove

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#13  Edited By TheLoveAbove
@EpicSteve said:
" I'm sure the guys at Bungie are talented enough to balance all these new components so you kids can enjoy your competitions. Besides, nothing is wrong with giving players more equipment for variety. If everyone has access to the same stuff, isn't it balanced? It sound like you should stick to Quake 3. "
You must have mis-understood me. I guess I'll rephrase everything I said.  If everyone has access to everything at spawn,It makes it less competitive. If you have to use strategy to go out and get it... its more competitive. Understand?
 
I'm not saying this game will be imbalanced either. What I'm saying is.. from the looks of everything I've seen, they're making the game more accessible to the.. not so good players.. of Halo.  "yeah, these kids could never get the invis or got shot in the head before they could use the bubble shield,, so we'll let them spawn with it".  
 
I'm sure the game will be fun, and everyone who was good at Halo will be good in Reach, and I'm probably complaining for no reason. But I am a competitive player who thought the addition of equipment and AR to Halo 3 almost ruined it for me.  And I wished Halo 3 was more like Halo 2 and 1. But I cannot deny Halo 3 being an amazing game. I still play. But I enjoyed Halo 2 a lot more. 
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EpicSteve

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#14  Edited By EpicSteve
@TheLoveAbove said:
" @EpicSteve said:
" I'm sure the guys at Bungie are talented enough to balance all these new components so you kids can enjoy your competitions. Besides, nothing is wrong with giving players more equipment for variety. If everyone has access to the same stuff, isn't it balanced? It sound like you should stick to Quake 3. "
You must have mis-understood me. I guess I'll rephrase everything I said.  If everyone has access to everything at spawn,It makes it less competitive. If you have to use strategy to go out and get it... its more competitive. Understand? I'm not saying this game will be imbalanced either. What I'm saying is.. from the looks of everything I've seen, they're making the game more accessible to the.. not so good players.. of Halo.  "yeah, these kids could never get the invis or got shot in the head before they could use the bubble shield,, so we'll let them spawn with it".   I'm sure the game will be fun, and everyone who was good at Halo will be good in Reach, and I'm probably complaining for no reason. But I am a competitive player who thought the addition of equipment and AR to Halo 3 almost ruined it for me.  And I wished Halo 3 was more like Halo 2 and 1. But I cannot deny Halo 3 being an amazing game. I still play. But I enjoyed Halo 2 a lot more.  "
Ok, I get it. I understand the competitive nature of rushing for the overshield, sniper, and so on. But when certain competitive aspects are eliminated, news ones are implemented. I guess it's all a matter of personal taste.
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zyn

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#15  Edited By zyn

Unlike yourself, I'm HAPPY to see the overshield and camo GONE from being picked up.  I never liked power-ups because they gave those who picked it up, a slight advantage.  
 
Being able to start off with it, at one's choice, is better as it balances the gameplay.

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TheGreatGuero

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#16  Edited By TheGreatGuero

Dude, there was plenty of skill involved in Halo 2 and 3. Sure, the "noob combo" could be lame, but if you were a good player, you could work around it pretty well. That combo excelled at medium range. If you got up close and personal, often times you could kill the person with the combo. Dual-wielding was also effective against it if you were in close-range. Plus there's always the super effectiveness of accurately thrown grenades. You could also take their weapon from them once you killed them, if that was your thing. Still, it was overpowered, and they learned from that mistake and fixed it for Halo 3. Same goes with the sword. It could be too deadly in Halo 2, so they toned it down and gave it limited usage. I'm a good player, and I still think both games find a nice balance between assessibility and competitiveness. 
 
I still haven't bothered playing COD4 or MW2 online. I'm not really sure why, I guess I don't play multiplayer that much. Still, I think their whole concept of leveling up is horrible. Just because you play a lot, you shouldn't get an unfair advantage over all beginners. That's totally lame. I know some people that practically devote their whole lives to the game just to get the best perks and such, and I really think that's a lousy way to approach online multiplayer, but let's face it, the pure act of leveling up and building your character is addicting as heck, which is evident with so many games. It ends up adding a lot of replay value, but definitely kills the level of fairness and accessibility to people who can't play as often. Unfortunately, from what I understand, Halo Reach is following COD's method. I hope it doesn't screw things up. I've always liked how everyone in a game starts exactly the same way and has an equal chance of winning, with only their skill to help them reign supreme.

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wh1terav3n

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#17  Edited By wh1terav3n
@TheLoveAbove:  I think you're thinking about this wrong. They said specifically for things like slayer (the Arena being the only truly competitively ranked mode) you're spawning options are limited. If you're playing spartan slayer, you can only spawn with sprint. That's it. No invis. (at least not to spawn with), not armor lock (different than a bubble shield but i'm assuming that's what you meant), no jetpacks.
 
Also, i totally disagree with the "Assault Rifles are overpowered in Halo 3". Give me a BR and you an AR. We can play on the smallest map and I'll probably destroy you.
 
As for small MLG maps, most of the symmetrical on the circuit are forged. Forge is back in Reach. 2 are not, The Pit and Heretic. In fact, not symmetrical maps were in the Halo 3 beta either.
 
So don't worry about it. I'm sure MLG will come out with their own custom settings. The weapons look just as good and competitive as the older ones. Wait until May 3rd when we can try out Bungie's (in their words), "Ultra-Competitive Slayer Multiplayer Space".
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Fish_Face_McGee

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#18  Edited By Fish_Face_McGee

Every time a new Halo game comes out (or is about to come out) a handful of people who have had no hands-on experience with the game cry out that the game is being made less competitive, or is being catered to noobs, or bad kids, or whatever the new jargon for people who aren't good at a game is.  In nearly every situation, the only case where this proven "correct" is when said people cannot adapt to changes to the game, and thus perform worse than they did in previous games.  Therefore, because they lose more, it's obviously because bad players have been catered to. 
 
 
I guess my question is, if the playing field becomes more and more level between noobs and pros, then shouldn't the game become more competitive because the pool of players you can play against and have a close match increases?  

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jkz

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#19  Edited By jkz
@PenguinDust said:
" I remember these same complaints when Halo introduced regenerating health.  "They made this game for babies! You should have to search for a health pack or just don't get shot!  Really, what the fuck?  Find someplace to hide and you're back to full health?...And what is this shield crap?"  Ask anyone who played Counter-Strike nearly a decade ago what they thought of competitive Halo, and chances are it wasn't much.  Players got used to the changes and moved on or they didn't play.  That's how it goes. "
This. I still find it confounding that people could consider Halo a competitive game, when there's so much diluting the pure player-skill aspect of the game, but I don't resent anyone for it. Our ideas on what is competitive evolve with the games we play, so I see nothing wrong with what they're doing here, as it has gotten me genuinely excited to play halo for the first time in a long time.
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TheLoveAbove

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#20  Edited By TheLoveAbove
@wh1terav3n said:

" @TheLoveAbove:  I think you're thinking about this wrong. They said specifically for things like slayer (the Arena being the only truly competitively ranked mode) you're spawning options are limited. If you're playing spartan slayer, you can only spawn with sprint. That's it. No invis. (at least not to spawn with), not armor lock (different than a bubble shield but i'm assuming that's what you meant), no jetpacks.  Also, i totally disagree with the "Assault Rifles are overpowered in Halo 3". Give me a BR and you an AR. We can play on the smallest map and I'll probably destroy you.  As for small MLG maps, most of the symmetrical on the circuit are forged. Forge is back in Reach. 2 are not, The Pit and Heretic. In fact, not symmetrical maps were in the Halo 3 beta either.  So don't worry about it. I'm sure MLG will come out with their own custom settings. The weapons look just as good and competitive as the older ones. Wait until May 3rd when we can try out Bungie's (in their words), "Ultra-Competitive Slayer Multiplayer Space". "

I really hope so. I just watched some more footage from an actual bungie employee. And the way he played made the game seem amazing. The other footage I watched made it seem bad.  And as for the AR, i was just referring to people waiting around corners and pulling the ol' shoot for a second, melee, and yer dead. But other than that crap the BR>AR anyday. But yeah, this guy is pretty much only using the pistol and its destroying.  
 
http://www.gamesradar.com/video/v-20100423115236876054
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wh1terav3n

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#21  Edited By wh1terav3n
@TheLoveAbove: I saw that video. I was happy to see someone playing well who knew how to counter different armor abilites too. Gave me some pointers.  I do have to admit, DMR + Magnum looks like a pretty powerful combination.
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calidan777

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#22  Edited By calidan777

That's why they are having the beta, so if something needs tweaked they can do it before launch. If your as good at Halo as you think you are then you shouldn't be worried about what other people start with, I'm not. I don't care what their armor ability is, I'm gonna have a tighter aim and faster trigger finger than they do. Bungie also said that when your near someone who is invisible that your radar will go fuzzy, letting you know that they are near by. I foresee myself jacking folks up in Halo like I always have, armor abilities be damned.
Also, I play a ton of Modern Warfare 2 and can safely say that your statement about all the kills being from killstreak rewards is wrong. I have right at 50,000 kills and a very small fraction are from killstreak rewards. Most games end with a person getting the game winning kill, not a killstreak reward. Plus, if you think that all the Halo games and Modern Warfare 2 are not competitively balanced, what game in your mind is?

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wh1terav3n

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#23  Edited By wh1terav3n
@jukezypoo said:
" @PenguinDust said:
" I remember these same complaints when Halo introduced regenerating health.  "They made this game for babies! You should have to search for a health pack or just don't get shot!  Really, what the fuck?  Find someplace to hide and you're back to full health?...And what is this shield crap?"  Ask anyone who played Counter-Strike nearly a decade ago what they thought of competitive Halo, and chances are it wasn't much.  Players got used to the changes and moved on or they didn't play.  That's how it goes. "
This. I still find it confounding that people could consider Halo a competitive game, when there's so much diluting the pure player-skill aspect of the game, but I don't resent anyone for it. Our ideas on what is competitive evolve with the games we play, so I see nothing wrong with what they're doing here, as it has gotten me genuinely excited to play halo for the first time in a long time. "
If you need to know how Halo can be a competitive game, watch some MLG footage. This game is FAR and away the most skill based multiplayer console game I've played. Way more so than MW2, mainly because an unskilled player can get 2 shots on you while you're back is turned and you can (if you're skilled) turn and 4 shot kill him. That's not possible in MW2 where a 4 year old kid can run around with a danger close noob tube and get 15 kills just by pointing in the general direction.
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Tolshakk

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#24  Edited By Tolshakk

So being able to whore weapon spawns should represent your acumen and prowess in a game? I don't get it

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Three0neFive

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#25  Edited By Three0neFive
@jukezypoo said:
" @PenguinDust said:
" I remember these same complaints when Halo introduced regenerating health.  "They made this game for babies! You should have to search for a health pack or just don't get shot!  Really, what the fuck?  Find someplace to hide and you're back to full health?...And what is this shield crap?"  Ask anyone who played Counter-Strike nearly a decade ago what they thought of competitive Halo, and chances are it wasn't much.  Players got used to the changes and moved on or they didn't play.  That's how it goes. "
This. I still find it confounding that people could consider Halo a competitive game, when there's so much diluting the pure player-skill aspect of the game, but I don't resent anyone for it. Our ideas on what is competitive evolve with the games we play, so I see nothing wrong with what they're doing here, as it has gotten me genuinely excited to play halo for the first time in a long time. "
These two posts make me very, very happy.
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Fosssil

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#26  Edited By Fosssil

Not to be condescending, but I don't think you fully grasp what it is that makes a "competitive" game. If you did, I doubt you would even have made this thread. Every new gameplay video that I've seen today has only reinforced in my mind the fact that this game will be much more competitive than Halo 2 and 3, even under default settings.

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ryanwho

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#27  Edited By ryanwho

Pretty sure this "handicap" helps the self described pros as much as it helps anyone else.

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jkz

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#28  Edited By jkz
@wh1terav3n said:

" @jukezypoo said:

" @PenguinDust said:
" I remember these same complaints when Halo introduced regenerating health.  "They made this game for babies! You should have to search for a health pack or just don't get shot!  Really, what the fuck?  Find someplace to hide and you're back to full health?...And what is this shield crap?"  Ask anyone who played Counter-Strike nearly a decade ago what they thought of competitive Halo, and chances are it wasn't much.  Players got used to the changes and moved on or they didn't play.  That's how it goes. "
This. I still find it confounding that people could consider Halo a competitive game, when there's so much diluting the pure player-skill aspect of the game, but I don't resent anyone for it. Our ideas on what is competitive evolve with the games we play, so I see nothing wrong with what they're doing here, as it has gotten me genuinely excited to play halo for the first time in a long time. "
If you need to know how Halo can be a competitive game, watch some MLG footage. This game is FAR and away the most skill based multiplayer console game I've played. Way more so than MW2, mainly because an unskilled player can get 2 shots on you while you're back is turned and you can (if you're skilled) turn and 4 shot kill him. That's not possible in MW2 where a 4 year old kid can run around with a danger close noob tube and get 15 kills just by pointing in the general direction. "
Methinks you need to more fully read my comment, I was acknowledging that, at this point in time, I think it's fair to consider Halo a competitive experience. But when compared to Counter-Strike 1.6 / Source, there is a lot diluting what makes a game, in my mind, truly competitive. It's indicative of a general shift in gaming, and while that's not a bad thing, it remains a bit difficult for me to adjust, because of the ridiculous amount of time I spent playing competitively in Counter-Strike. 
 
The key phrase in your post, is in fact, "I've Played." For those of us who played Counter-Strike, Halo is nowhere near as competitive. In ten years' time, for someone who never played Halo, COD 15 will be the epitome of competitive gaming. Times change, and so do our definitions of what makes a game competitive.
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Jimbo

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#29  Edited By Jimbo

You know you're getting old when people start talking about Halo like this.  Halo ffs.

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Fosssil

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#30  Edited By Fosssil
@Fish_Face_McGee said:
" I guess my question is, if the playing field becomes more and more level between noobs and pros, then shouldn't the game become more competitive because the pool of players you can play against and have a close match increases?   "
No. A game that limits player abilities and thereby reduces the skill gap is not competitive.
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Fish_Face_McGee

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#31  Edited By Fish_Face_McGee
@Fosssil said:
" @Fish_Face_McGee said:
" I guess my question is, if the playing field becomes more and more level between noobs and pros, then shouldn't the game become more competitive because the pool of players you can play against and have a close match increases?   "
No. A game that limits player abilities and thereby reduces the skill gap is not competitive. "
Care to explain?  I don't see how anything that has been discussed so far is limiting player abilities.  In fact, I would argue that it's increasing player abilities.  The point that TheLoveAbove was arguing against was that in Halo: Reach, you spawn with abilities that change the way the game is played.  His argument was based around the idea that it doesn't take skill to use the spawn-equipped armor.  Your argument is that it limits the player's abilities.  I don't see the connection.  I would argue that the inclusion of armor abilities (much like the inclusion of an automatic weapon that doesn't suck in the H3 AR) actually adds a requirement for more skill.  In the case of the armor abilities, you need to have enough experience and on-the-fly-knowledge to know which loadout (or just the armor ability if the rest of the spawn equipment is the same) best suits the situation you are currently in.  With the H3 AR, a situation was created where two players who saw each other and started shooting each other at the exact same moment could have an outcome where the better player is always the winner.  A bad player does not know that it is a bad idea to just hold the trigger down as opposed to quick controlled bursts.  A bad player does not have a sixth sense about how much time he needs to be shooting his enemy before a frontal melee will kill.  A BR is simple in comparison.  4 headshots or 3 headshots and a melee.   
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Jinto

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#32  Edited By Jinto
@Baljot187 said:
" This is specious reasoning all over the place. Just from the 35 minutes of footage I saw on this site and another 12 minutes I saw over at GamesRadar, the game already seems balanced with counters for all the armour abilities, or equipment as you call it. The invisibility isn't total, and it definitely doesn't last as long as Active Camo did in any of the previous games did. The walkthrough on GamesRadar showed that a person using the invisibility who isn't using it smartly would be pretty visible to everyone else.  
The personal shield/turtling ability can be really effective, but can also leave you really vulnerable. As Bungie's Luke Smith pointed out, people are learning new strategies with the personal shield, like turn it on and hope that the dude who was shooting at you gets killed by one of your teammates. These abilities hardly make you as invincible as you're making it sound. The jetpack makes you a giant flying target, the Elite roll could take some practice and getting used to, and there are others that I'm forgetting at the moment.  
The very second and third sentences in your post show contrary you are to your own point - Halo and Halo 2 were hardly balanced if one weapon dominated all the others. In Halo Reach it seems like every weapon and ability has a successful counter to it. Someone dominating with the DMR or the pistol? There's the needle rifle to combat that.  
 

 
This is just Bungie trying to bring Halo into the modern age, because their multiplayer was archaic as fuck.  
Also LMAO at this statement 

 What ever happened to players having to earn their kills? The #1 game on XBL is Modern Warfare 2. And the majority of kills you get on that game come from Predator missiles or harrier strikes. You don't really have to pull the trigger once you get 5 kills, just lie in the corner and wait.     

"

I whole heatedly agree. Stupid wieners think Bungie makes their games exclusively for MLG/Gamebattles kids who drop out of school to play video games. Although there is not a doubt in my mind that MLG will strip this game to its bare bones in order to make it one-dimensional.
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Demyx

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#33  Edited By Demyx

I hope the campaign is good.

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Deusoma

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#34  Edited By Deusoma

As someone who enjoys playing Halo, but totally sucks at the online side of things, I'm actually feeling pretty good about this stuff. :)
 
I'm not saying I wanna be #1 on the leaderboards, but I could do without the experience of playing all afternoon and never getting a win. :P

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#35  Edited By Fosssil
@Fish_Face_McGee said:
Care to explain?  I don't see how anything that has been discussed so far is limiting player abilities.  In fact, I would argue that it's increasing player abilities.  The point that TheLoveAbove was arguing against was that in Halo: Reach, you spawn with abilities that change the way the game is played.  His argument was based around the idea that it doesn't take skill to use the spawn-equipped armor.  Your argument is that it limits the player's abilities.  I don't see the connection.  I would argue that the inclusion of armor abilities (much like the inclusion of an automatic weapon that doesn't suck in the H3 AR) actually adds a requirement for more skill.  In the case of the armor abilities, you need to have enough experience and on-the-fly-knowledge to know which loadout (or just the armor ability if the rest of the spawn equipment is the same) best suits the situation you are currently in.  With the H3 AR, a situation was created where two players who saw each other and started shooting each other at the exact same moment could have an outcome where the better player is always the winner.  A bad player does not know that it is a bad idea to just hold the trigger down as opposed to quick controlled bursts.  A bad player does not have a sixth sense about how much time he needs to be shooting his enemy before a frontal melee will kill.  A BR is simple in comparison.  4 headshots or 3 headshots and a melee.    "
I think you misunderstood my other post. I wasn't speaking about Reach specifically, or implying that it wouldn't be competitive. You asked in your previous post if a game would be more competitive if the playing field was leveled and the gap between "pros" and "noobs" was reduced. I was simply saying that such a reduction in skill gap could not possibly increase the competitive merit of a game.
 
I actually agree with you completely about Armor Abilities. They are going to add a new dimension of strategy, depth, and skill to the core Halo formula. The OP doesn't have a solid grasp of the mechanics that make a game competitive. Every video I have seen so far of Reach has left me thinking that it will be the most competitive Halo sequel yet. It probably won't be up to the H1 standard, but that's to be expected in today's casual-friendly game environment.
 
@Jinto said:
" I whole heatedly agree. Stupid wieners think Bungie makes their games exclusively for MLG/Gamebattles kids who drop out of school to play video games. Although there is not a doubt in my mind that MLG will strip this game to its bare bones in order to make it one-dimensional. "
If there are unbalanced elements in the final game's sandbox, then MLG will remove them. If everything is well-balanced and skillful, then MLG won't remove anything. Halo 2 and Halo 3 were both rife with unskillful weapons/equipment that had no role in competitive play. MLG had to strip those games down to their core mechanics, because everything else just contributed to random outcomes. Conversely, neither Halo 1 nor Shadowrun had to be modified in any way when they were on the MLG Pro Circuit, because both of those games were perfectly balanced under default settings.
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#36  Edited By cloneslayer
@TheLoveAbove said:
"  Halo 1, if you weren't good with the pistol, you sucked. Halo 2, if you weren't good with the BR, you sucked. "
This is what we like to call "bad balancing". 
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thejamster

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#37  Edited By thejamster

I didn't play halo 3 competitively but the arena system is drawing me into playing reach that way,  I assume they will have a simpler playlist for mlg or something

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Brendan

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#38  Edited By Brendan  Online

Somewhere, pro Counter Strike players feel sudden anger and they don't know why.
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End_Boss

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#39  Edited By End_Boss

I think its fascinating when gamers declare the "death" of something when in reality that thing will continue on without them, completely oblivious of its own death!

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gamer_152

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#40  Edited By gamer_152  Moderator

From what I've seen this is by no means the end of competitive Halo.

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mazik765

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#41  Edited By mazik765

Yay for elitist q.qing. The way I see it if you are good/competitive enough for this complaint to be made, you should be able to kill the 'bad players' anyway because you have the same advantages they have. So stop crying about not being able to exploit a balanced game and practice if you want to stop dying.
 
Although I do agree that the harrier jet and things liker that in MW2 are not my taste.

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wefwefasdf

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#42  Edited By wefwefasdf

I am sure MLG will adapt settings that will work well for competitive gaming. No need to freak out...

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DystopiaX

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#43  Edited By DystopiaX
@TheLoveAbove said:
" Every new Halo game, they make it more and more accessible for "bad kids" to be good. Halo 1, if you weren't good with the pistol, you sucked. Halo 2, if you weren't good with the BR, you sucked. Halo 3, you needed to be good with the BR, but they gave you an over powered AR spawn that can kill you with a few shots and a melee.  They also gave you equipment to hide in.  Halo: Reach.... they are letting you spawn with the equipment.. Seriously? letting players spawn with a bubble shield or Invis? And they are making maps based on the assumption a lot of players will be using the Jet Pack (so long small symmetrical MLG maps).  What ever happened to players having to earn their kills? The #1 game on XBL is Modern Warfare 2. And the majority of kills you get on that game come from Predator missiles or harrier strikes. You don't really have to pull the trigger once you get 5 kills, just lie in the corner and wait.  Halo: Reach seems to be following the same formula. Instead of having teams fight over powerups, and letting the team with the better strategy earn it.... they let everyone spawn with it. Their reasoning?  "It seemed in Halo 3, players would pick up equipment, and die before using it".... Well yeah, thats called the other team being better. So how do they fix the problem of "the better team gets the powerups/ equipment".... they let everyone spawn with it.        Say goodbye to "alright, invis spawns in 2, Overshield spawns in 4". And say hello to "alright guys, im turning on my invis now and im going to wait around the corner with the shotgun I spawned with".   We'll see if my expectations are met with the Beta. But I have a feeling that Reach will bring in/ make happy, a lot of new Halo players. And the competitive players will be scratching their heads in disappointed.  "
list of reasons why you're wrong: 
1. hitscan weapons- when you hit someone, you hit someone. no br spread crap 
2. single shot weapons- take more skill than spraynpray- DMR, Magnum, Needle rifle all play into this  
3. You don't have to use the noncompetitive loadouts (Armor lock, jetpack). The competitive community seems to think that either sprint or evade will work for play. You can also spawn without loadouts in custom games. 
4. They're not making all maps jetpack-accessible- you seem misinformed. that was primarily swordbase. we don't know about all the maps yet. Remember the H3 beta? None of those maps was ever used for competitive play by ANY league (snowbound, valhalla, high ground). If we don't find a good competitive map in the beta, there may be one in the full game. If not, we can forge it. 
5. Shotgun camping isn't hard to counter...at all. All powerups are on a cooldown, so you can't do that forever. In addition, the good players will get killed once, and either hunt them down in FFA or call them out to their team in team based games. 
6. Much of your argument seems to be based on the fact that powerups are a deciding factor in any of the Halo games to date. They are not. far more important is teamwork and individual shooting skill, then power weapons (sniper, rockets, etc.), all of which spawn the same way they used to. 
7. Health- You say that Halo: CE was the most competitive Halo title. It had health, which added to the competition. Halo Reach has health. Therefore, Halo reach is taking a step back to the Halo CE days.  
8. I can't believe you think that the AR spawn is overpowered. If you get killed by AR/beatdown noobs, you're doing it wrong. If you get charged by people, either backpack a mauler/shotty and wait for them to get close to melee you, or back the fuck up and use a BR/sniper/carbine to kill them. It's not that hard, really. IMO H3 AR starts were the most underpowered starts in the series (H2 had SMG duel wielding, and most people switched to BR start anyway) 
9. Nerfed melee system- you can't half-shield then beatdown people anymore. If you have the tiniest sliver of health, the first smack will just take away their shield and leave health intact. They need to pop your shields first or beatdown twice to be successful, leaving you with more than enough time to pop their shields and either melee them back or headshot them.
 
Non-argument part, but for more competitive gamer opinions, check the MLG forums. As pessimistic as they all are, the general consensus is that Reach looks good for competitive play.
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DystopiaX

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#44  Edited By DystopiaX
@TheLoveAbove said:

" @EpicSteve said:

" I'm sure the guys at Bungie are talented enough to balance all these new components so you kids can enjoy your competitions. Besides, nothing is wrong with giving players more equipment for variety. If everyone has access to the same stuff, isn't it balanced? It sound like you should stick to Quake 3. "
You must have mis-understood me. I guess I'll rephrase everything I said.  If everyone has access to everything at spawn,It makes it less competitive. If you have to use strategy to go out and get it... its more competitive. Understand? I'm not saying this game will be imbalanced either. What I'm saying is.. from the looks of everything I've seen, they're making the game more accessible to the.. not so good players.. of Halo.  "yeah, these kids could never get the invis or got shot in the head before they could use the bubble shield,, so we'll let them spawn with it".   I'm sure the game will be fun, and everyone who was good at Halo will be good in Reach, and I'm probably complaining for no reason. But I am a competitive player who thought the addition of equipment and AR to Halo 3 almost ruined it for me.  And I wished Halo 3 was more like Halo 2 and 1. But I cannot deny Halo 3 being an amazing game. I still play. But I enjoyed Halo 2 a lot more.  "
And if your idea of competitive play=using Bungie loadouts, then let's go through the powerups- 
1.Sprint- from a balance standpoint, not that hard to counter. Callout where they are/going, and shut them down. 
2. Evade- temporary, just keep tracking them 
3. Armor Lock- stand back and throw nades. They'll be helpless to move and you'll kill them once it pops 
4. Active Camo- They become easier to spot when moving. I already explained how to deal with campers 
5. Jetpack- slow and easy to pick off if they're attempting to use it in the middle of a firefight. The downside to high ground is that everyone can see you as well.  
 
Seperately, I've already pointed out that the spray and beatdown is no longer as effective and can be countered by skilled players (not that it couldn't in H3, just that it makes it even easier)  
@Fish_Face_McGee
said:

" Every time a new Halo game comes out (or is about to come out) a handful of people who have had no hands-on experience with the game cry out that the game is being made less competitive, or is being catered to noobs, or bad kids, or whatever the new jargon for people who aren't good at a game is.  In nearly every situation, the only case where this proven "correct" is when said people cannot adapt to changes to the game, and thus perform worse than they did in previous games.  Therefore, because they lose more, it's obviously because bad players have been catered to.   I guess my question is, if the playing field becomes more and more level between noobs and pros, then shouldn't the game become more competitive because the pool of players you can play against and have a close match increases?   "


no, because narrowing the skill gap lessens the advantages skilled players have. Consider two teams- one decidedly better than the other. if you narrow the gap, the game becomes a lot closer, NOT because it's more competitive, but because player skill isn't rewarded as much. 
 
edit- as for the dude on the last page saying that MLG is one dimensional, try playing on the MLG playlist. If you think regular team slayer is hard, you won't make it past skill level 10, and that's being generous. Less stuff does not equal easier or less hard. There is a lot of depth and skill to even simpler games.
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mastrbiggy

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#45  Edited By mastrbiggy

Change is good.  I don't want the same old Halo.  I am soo excited for this game

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#46  Edited By Trilogy

Hey, I have an idea. Lets complain about a game that doesn't come out until the end of the year.
 
Honestly dude, I've seen the same fucking complaints about every online game ever made. It's the same old "the sky is falling!" bullshit.  It's really played out and tired at this point.

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#47  Edited By DE235

I think you fears will be put to rest once the game releases or at least you won't be complaining about for a while.

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#48  Edited By LegendaryBlue
@PenguinDust:  You do know that all of the those things will be editable in the final game right?
 
MLG can still have their little super competitive games and disable the armor abilities. Simple as that.
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#49  Edited By crunchUK
@TheLoveAbove said:

" over powered AR                                          "

Here's where you failed big time. I'm guessing you're one of those not too smart TS players that has some kind of complex surrounding his aiming skills 
 
However i think Reach will be great for competitive. Not uber-serious try your heart out competitive, but playing smart and as a team as you plumb the innermost depths of the game. That sort of "big team battle vibe" of hey guys if we all do this, that and the other instead of the usual same old opening rush/map recuperation/map locking down we could seriously poke them in the eye.  Avalanche and Valhalla are simply brilliant maps for this style of play.
  
Still, the loadouts, abilities, and such will give you a great opportunity to endlessly find new, better, and ever more elaborate and smart ways to beat the opposition, without (hopefully) suffering from BC2 syndrome of "hey let's all camp with a sniper rifle..." and nullifying any great strategy by having the other team simply respawn with all their goodies. Since you can only spawn with non power weapons. And also because there is no "main" weapon anymore. You can have a "main" weapon, but only to suit one style of play. As i said in my other thread that was simply too intelligent for your average giantbomb user to handle.
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#50  Edited By Charles

If you ask me they are taking out things that made halo crap. (Floaty jumping) Characters now seem like they have more weight and real. Like it should be.

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