I'm currently 20 hours into Hollow Knight, but I think I've played enough to know that it nails the Soulsborne formula. It doesn't exist in the same genre, but Hollow Knight has the lore, environment, tone, level design, enemies, and NPCs that drives me to discover more of the world. The gameplay is solid, but I wouldn't have the drive and enthusiasm to play more if the game's world wasn't pulling me in.

I used to think that I needed more games that play like a FromSoftware game, but Hollow Knight made me realize that it's everything surrounding it that pulls me in. There are several games out there that borrow heavily from the Soulsborne series when it comes to gameplay and combat, but I haven't heard of any game that does what Hollow Knight did with everything else. Are there other games that successfully do it?

I do believe they're the first to truly capture the entirety of what makes the Souls games what they are. There have been a fair number of games out there that get some of it right, whether it be the combat, level design, or sometimes just something as basic as successfully implementing the systems the Souls games are known for. There is not one game that I can think of that's managed to do it all, except for Hollow Knight.

I think Salt and Sanctuary came close, but it came up short in two areas; world building and combat. The world building (via items/npc interactions) wasn't particularly memorable, and the combat sought some sort of middle ground between Ska's fast-paced 2D action and From's slower, deliberate combat, and it doesn't work that well. I don't think it's bad, mind you; just not that good.

Hell of a first effort from both of those studios; I'd love to see both of them try it again at some point in the future.

I'd say so. There are definitely games that have tried more directly to capture that Soulsborne vibe, Salt & Sanctuary being a big one. But most feel like they fail to see what makes a souls game feel like a souls game (hint: it's not high levels of difficulty). To truly capture that feeling, the world has to be bleak and oppressive. The music needs to be understated, but very present at the same time. The characters and interactions with non-enemies need to feel meaningful and slightly mysterious or confusing. Above all it has to draw the player in and make them want to discover things for themselves. If the world isn't interesting, the rest kinda just falls apart. I think that's where a lot of these attempts at capturing that magic stumble before they even get a foot out of the door. They worlds being crafted just aren't interesting, or lack nuance.

Hollow Knight was immediately enticing with its fantastic artwork. It also then managed to back up its great presentation with an interesting world. It wasn't just all flash and no substance. I'm glad its getting the props it so rightfully deserves ever since the Switch release. I believe the only person to properly praise it last year was Mary Kish. I was honestly surprised something like Axiom Verge got a ton of praise on the site but Hollow Knight got almost no attention. I love Axiom, but Hollow Knight is on a whole other level.

Considering it’s so difficult I can’t even manage to beat the first mini-boss after about 40 tries and I completely hate the game now I would say, yes, it probably does successfully use that formula.

When I was playing through Hollow Knight I thought to myself "holy crap, they made a souls game without copying the combat". It's definitely more soul like than any of the other games out there.

It makes you realize how many new ideas demon/dark souls brought to the table when they first came out. Pretty cool.

Something about the comparison I don't like because it's hard to really say Souls was the first game to use that formula.. but in more the spirit of the comparison I'd say they got pretty close.

What I think it does even better in many instances is tone, the exploration of Hollow Knight often feels way more meaningful or emotional.

I think the way I pitched it to a friend of mine is that in a Souls game you're exploring the mysteries of a dead civilization, in Hollow Knight you are poking at a corpse.

Personally~
Dark Souls has a certain atmosphere and deliciously-implicating lore to it that at times feel humbling and thoroughly sad
Something about Hollow Knight's design manages to convey similar feelings on a 2D plane.
Even if you're just insect people you feel like you matter, or mattered. Or does anything matter?
It sparks the imagination and I spin tales with every little step I take and every new screen entered is to be both feared and rejoiced.

Castlevania never sparked similar emotions; it was more a jaunty venture of the hero who's off to fight
Hollywood's most famous horror-movie monsters which also was very cool in its own way.
The lore in Castlevania isn't worth thinking much about but Michiru Yamane's compositions is still with me to this day.

Im mixed on Hollow Knight. I think some of what it takes from Souls games is a detriment to making it a good Metroid-style game. The combat and atmosphere is cool but the exploration is tedious and it hurts the game. The map system they implement doesn't improve the game in any meaningful way

Salt and Sanctuary was a thing.

No, its a metroidvania with some elements that the Soulsborne genre popularized. I bought Hollow Knight originally because of all the recommendations that it was like a soulsborne, but it just isn't there. With maybe the exception of retrieving your stuff and the benches, it doesn't have anything in common. Tons of games even before Demon's Souls have had interesting worlds and great level design, that isn't a part that you can directly point to Souls as something they cribbed from. Inspired maybe, but the core design idea of Soulsborne with storytelling and world is not getting a clear picture and having to fill in the blanks (Link to a in interview that touches on that). I think Hyper Light Drifter is a better example of that kind of world/storytelling outside of the core games. In contrast, a core world design of a metroidvania is seeing places or item you can't get to yet all over the place, because you need an item or a skill to access it. Hollow Knight has tons of that.

I think what you're praising about Hollow Knight is absolutely true and it is a spectacularly well built game, but not a Soulsborne. Sort of like how people get upset about 'roguelike' as a term because it represented a very specific kind of game for a long time (like Rogue, one might say) and then people use terms like Roguelite or Roguelikelike when what they really mean is run based or permadeath, which sort of underlines how little genres really matter.

Really wish I liked Hollow Knight more, but I got 20 hours deep before I just realized I don't like platformers or metroidvanias and I wasn't enjoying it at all. Incredibly well designed and built game though.

I haven't played the Souls games, but Hollow Knight just seems like a straight-up Metroidvania. The only thing it takes from the Souls games is the lose-stuff-on-dying mechanic, and that isn't really that important to the game. The only thing it does is add some challenge and tension to the fights. If you removed that mechanic the game would still be great. Maybe it borrows some story-wise, but the Souls games aren't the only ones to do the 'deep lore if you look for it' thing.

Ehhh, some of you are really overplaying the idea that it's just a take on Metroidvania/Symphony of the Night. While most Metroidvanias just have travel to different areas gated by abilities, Hollow Knight has that but also has numerous shortcuts that you have to unlock/break from a particular side, which seems deliberately evocative of the similar ladders and switches in Soulsborne stuff. Also the whole setting being a dying kingdom where a lot of NPCs you interact with are crazy weirdos or just kinda assholes seems like it is going for a similar vibe to Soulsborne stuff, though Hollow Knight doesn't obfuscate the backstory to the same extent. Also, the role your player character has at the final boss fight in Hollow Knight is not unlike the role your player character has in Dark Souls.

To the game's credit, it's not trying to be Soulsborne entirely, but I think it's pretty clear that Hollow Knight is using some of those ideas and themes but in its own setting and world with more Metroidvania gameplay.

Yes. I've been saying exactly this for a while now. It feels like the Souls games in a way no other game really does. Well, except for the gameplay which isn't as difficult as Souls games are for the most part.

I really don’t get how people are able to kill the bosses in this game (or dark souls for that matter). I’ve tried so many times to kill that mini-boss and I just can’t do it. I know exactly how I’m supposed to do it, I’ve watched videos, but I can’t execute. I have the same problem with the Dark Souls games, I’ve tried 2 and 3 and just can’t make it past the first bosses no matter how hard I try. I guess I just have to come to terms with the fact that I’m truly awful at timing based combat in games, to such an extent that basically everybody is better than me since I haven’t seen anybody comment on how hard this game is. I want to love this game because I love Metroidvanias and I love the art style but I already have enough frustration in my life, I really don’t need to add to it.

Feel like a bunch of y'all are coming at this mechanically when the opening was very specifically talking about everything around that.

Totally. The NPC's changing over time and getting in weird situations is another one of those dark soulsian things. Like Zote is pretty much a Solaire-like warrior whose path crosses yours multiple times throughout the adventure. Myla (the bug mining diamonds) slowly losing her mind and becoming hostile is another one of those memorable characters. A lot of these bosses you face have their own place in the world and relations with other characters. For instance, depending on your actions in the game, Bretta can either fall in love with you, Zote or go out (because she's tired of waiting for love? Because she's attracted to a creature further down the world? The Hunter? Quirrel?) Her tent even changes appearances depending on who she loves. The plot of Hollow Knight is painted with broad strokes where the information is not always there. I remember when i finished Hollow Knight i spent a few hours just reading about the lore to realize why certain things happened. The infection spreading through the kingdom and altering the world & it's characters is another nod to the environmental storytelling of those games. And naturally, the end of the game is similar to Dark Souls as well.

Yes, that's right. The mechanics and gameplay are not really evocative of the Soulsborne formula aside from the shortcuts and getting back your souls upon death. I'm talking about the lore, environment, tone, level design, enemies, and NPCs that makes it feel like a Soulsborne experience.

Does Bloodborne get inserted into that "genre" simply by virtue of being a good game?

It has much better world building than a lot of games that try to be like a souls game. I'd say it stays true to what it is though. (A Metroidvania, love or hate the term it's what it is)

I was actually sad that Salt and Sanctuary tried so hard to be like the souls games when I think it could have been a much better game if it didnt follow those games so closely. (more abilities and a map would have made that game much more enjoyable for me) I still liked it though, i'd say that was the second closest anyone has come.

(Nioh has better combat than any souls game but that's not what we're discussing)

Salt and Sanctuary did a hell of a job copying the Soulsborne stuff. The mechanics, sure, but also the tone of despair.

I’d say NIOH did an excellent job at being a different take using that specific formula while also building on it.

There weren't many games before Demon Souls which obscured "lore" within elements of its world, it doesn't make obvious sense to hide something you spent so much time making, but since we're ignoring mechanics i might bring up a game like:

While the story isn't really obscured like it is in Souls, its universe is so well realised it takes on a life of its own, where Dark Souls inspired me to explore its world with its mystery, Oddysee had me similarly intrigued due to its environments and the behaviours of its "inhabitants".

I'm probably missing the point of this thread :P, but i can't think of another franchise whose world intrigues me in similar ways.

I long for the day when the Souls games stop becoming the goalpost by which every other thing is measured. I'm also still not sure we can really refer to Souls games as a genre, per se.

@cikame: The OP uses the word formula, which you'd generally think of as gameplay elements but he brought up tone, so I dont think you're missing the point. Fart jokes aside, the demented tone and oppressive vibes of the game are quite similar but the one thing I think it misses is the sense of isolation and the people you do meet seeming crazy. There are plenty of people in oddworld, sure half them are enslaved, beasts and gun touting shitheads but I dont get the sense that any of them are insane.

I'd say tonally and atomospherically the Silent Hill games feel quite similar.

I'm with you but at the same time everything would just be called an action RPG without these dumb subgenres but the term "Roguelike" "Roguelite" "Metroidvania" "Soulsborne" all suck because you're just using the name of the game(s) instead of decribing elements of it. It is what is though and it's better than the alternative.

I do think it's sad that so many developers who made very different types of actions games are all chasing Fromsofts lead but its not like there werent plenty of DMC & GOW clones before them. (or games that were compared to them due to similarities)

So, Soulsborne is totally a thing now right?

I sort of hope Sekiro is similar enough to previous from games that suddenly people start talking about SoulsborneSekiro games.

Like i get that bloodborne is not too far off the souls games, but soulsborne sounds so concocted to me.