"Look Bob, we really loved what you did with the ending of Rage, this has nothing to do with it, ok?".

@Grimluck343 said:

@msavo said:

Everyday I go to my local Best Buy I see stacks of Rage. No one even bought that game during Boxing Day at my local stores except me. It's not a horrible game but for how long it took to produce I don't know what the fuck they were doing.

I don't think the number of copies of a game on store shelves is really indicative of sales.

Of course. If you look at the actual sales numbers they are pretty bad considering the budget and length of development time.

I LOVED Rage. It is sold, 60fps, no hitches or glitches (unlike the travesty that is Skyrim). The graphics were gorgeous, and I'm not talking just technically. Artistically it was one of the greatest "destroyed beauty" examples I've seen. A much more immersive feeling, graphically, than Fallout 3. I had no issues whatsoever with the combat or vehicle portions. Wellspring was so beautifully crafted, too. I could see a game with a sprawling Dead Space style environment using IDTech5 and being blown away. And then I think that we will be probably seeing something just like that in the new Doom and I get hyped!

Sad for the guys that are losing their jobs, but the writing has been on the wall for awhile now. id Software hasn't been putting out good games for a long long time now, they just can't do it. There are obviously some superstars on the payroll given the bright spots in those otherwise lackluster games, but given the poor overall quality the company did need shaking up. Maybe it'll come out better than before. Hopefully the guys let go will find jobs elsewhere.

It was said during the Rage Quick Look but I would like to see them use the id Tech 5 engine for Fallout 4.

I'm actually having a relatively hearty laugh at all of the ultra-dramatic commenters in this thread calling for the burning of top ID executives/designers because their skewed expectations of Rage led to them being unreasonably disappointed in a highly dramatic (and very amusing) fashion. Nobody to blame but yourselves, duders and dudettes.

A lot of people enjoyed Rage for its beautiful, linear world and it's thick, heavy shooting mechanics, because like normal people, we had tempered expectations because we know the type of game this studio likes to make. ID knows exactly what they are doing, and John Carmack has proven to be a top talent in his field.

Bring on whatever the future has for ID. Fuck everybody else.

Although it's easy to jump to the conclusion that these are firings due to the poor sales of ID titles, (remember that although RAGE is the last title ID released they have proven very successful at monetizing their back catalog) if you look at the wording of the press release it states that the layoffs were part of a standard business practice to ensure that they have the right kind of workforce. This could as much mean that they getting rid of the dead weight (read: bad) developers as that they need less people because they can't afford to pay everyone. They then go on to say that they are looking for qualified developers which would make perfect sense if they were trying to replace poor performers people rather than downsize. Firing people and hiring others as a means of reducing payroll spending isn't unheard of (you can start the new guys off on a lower salary) but frequently it's far more likely that a company would instigate a hiring freeze at the same time that they proceed with 'rightsizing'

I'm sorry to hear that.....

I thought Rage was one of the best looking games last year, but it was superboring.

I absolutely loved Rage and enjoyed playing it more than just about every other game last year. It's honestly hard for me to comprehend why everyone seems to hate it so much. Maybe people just need to play a game and try to have fun with it for what it is rather than poking it's little problems with a stick. I'm really looking forward to whatever Id does next, so it makes me sad that they are having to lay people off. But maybe it actually is just cleaning out the dead weight. Time will surely tell.

@fisk0 said:

@JohnPaulVann said:

Carmack should be the one getting fired for designing the horse shit technology that powers Rage. He is no longer a top talent. Fuck him and fuck id. Unless John Romero comes back I'm done with the company's games.

+1 for the return of John Romero. He might have been crazy, but he had the great ideas and inspiration that was needed to make Id's technically competent but otherwise dull designs great. As for Carmack, I can't say - RAGE looks great, but nothing about the technology - at least not as described - sounds new or revolutionary. Streaming Megatextures aren't new ideas. They fucking used that in the previous engine (both Quake Wars and Quake 4 at least), as well as a bunch of open world-y game engines, and pre-baked light/shadowmaps have been in Id's games since Quake 1...

Yeah fuck those no talent hacks, and lol at bring back John Romero who single handedly almost bankrupted Eidos, fuck him and his triple AAA title, award winning game of the year and a 100% Romero title "Daikatana".

Rage is done and they probably need to trim the fat. Business as usual IMO. Much ado about nothing.

lets make the coolest engine ever then let no one use it but some in house unskilled game developers. Imagine what would happen if John Carmack was working at Valve right now.

Aww....stupid Bethesday... this better not affect Doom 4!!

I'm sorry to hear that for the guys at iD...we also had plenty of layoffs recently 'round here...

@ShaneDev: Thats what i though too. Anyone?

@buckybit said:

Let me put it this way:

You don't bury your grandpa before you are absolutely certain he really stopped breathing. In the end - he's your grandfather; he's the very reason why you exist in the first place. Be nice to old people.

Putting in mind Adrian Carmack, John Romero, Jay Wilbur, Shawn Green, Sandy Petersen and Dave Taylor no longer work at id, yup. I somehow doubt id Software has that same laidback mentality now too, few studios still do.

@whizzedoutwoz said:

@fisk0 said:

@JohnPaulVann said:

Carmack should be the one getting fired for designing the horse shit technology that powers Rage. He is no longer a top talent. Fuck him and fuck id. Unless John Romero comes back I'm done with the company's games.

+1 for the return of John Romero. He might have been crazy, but he had the great ideas and inspiration that was needed to make Id's technically competent but otherwise dull designs great. As for Carmack, I can't say - RAGE looks great, but nothing about the technology - at least not as described - sounds new or revolutionary. Streaming Megatextures aren't new ideas. They fucking used that in the previous engine (both Quake Wars and Quake 4 at least), as well as a bunch of open world-y game engines, and pre-baked light/shadowmaps have been in Id's games since Quake 1...

Yeah fuck those no talent hacks, and lol at bring back John Romero who single handedly almost bankrupted Eidos, fuck him and his triple AAA title, award winning game of the year and a 100% Romero title "Daikatana".

Yah what a ridiculous thing to say. Carmack is probably THE most talented person in the industry on the technical side of things. Maybe not so much creatively but the mega textures system is not as simple and easy to duplicate a you might think. John Romero is known for his amazing skills as a level designer for the original Doom games and then making a complete laughing stock out of himself after the release of Daikatana. Bring back that talent!

@Jackel2072 said:

@wafflez said:

@HyperionX3 said:

@Beb said:

Got Rage on the Christmas Steam Sale. Woof. Played for about 3 hours and I'm not sure I will go back.

Sad to see the glory days of iD are basically over. They will always hold a special place in my heart.

Hey, I'm just curious what aspects about it you liked least. I tried getting into it too, and I found that while technically it was nice and looked great, it bored me somehow. Which...is saying something because I enjoy simple shooters. But Rage just could not hold my interest at all.

I'm in the same boat.. only around an hour into it. I just find it really pointless. Fetch quests/go kill these guys and then come back! Not to mention the shooting is boring as hell. I get the 'interactive tech demo' feel while playing.

Yeah me too. i got about 5 or 6 hours in and just stopped caring. It all just feels stale and a complete lack of charm or even passion. all the work seemed to go into ID Tech 5. an engine that can only be leased inside Bethesda and made a pretty poor showing on the PC. its going to be interesting to see what goes on at id in the next few years.

My reasons are similar. I thought parts of the game looked impressive, but there are also tons of really low res textures everywhere. The people look cool, but I found going on errands for people in the super linear wasteland to be pretty boring compared to something like Fallout, or fighting your way in or out of a demon infested space installation.

Go clear out this cave. Go do a race. Go kill mutants in this arena room. Go clear out that cave again only this time there is a body at the end for you to find.

If the game is going to be a shallow shooter, that is fine, but they can't have so much downtime between shooting parts, and the shooting parts need to feel important somehow.

I finding Rage to be pretty good and I'm already 12 hours into it.   I think you guys are focusing too much on the grounded design philosophies.   Those are a little bland, they feel like they're designed for a bit of a simpler game than today.   But I like the feel of action; the shooting is enjoyable with multiple ammos for each weapon that can nicely amp up the gore while the AI is fun to toy around with.   The vehicle action is alright too, it's not quite as fun but it keeps a decent back and forth between vehicle action and FPS.   I did find the first hour to be a bit, frustrating (the game just drops vehicle mechanics in from nowhere); but guys, come on, even if it takes a long time to build, they still made a strong game, I think an above average game.

If they are going to lay off the people who made Rage, they better lay off the people who thought a game like that could work in 2011. I hope they learn from all their mistakes and don't repeat it in Doom 4.

Were their contracts over? Is this real news or just a misunderstanding.

I could see a Rage sequel only in that they have the tech make beautiful looking, sounding and feeling game so next time around they would just need to really think about the gameplay.

However they may as well just create a new IP because nothing in Rage's design was in anyway original or interesting.

They tried to hype Rage up like there was no tomorrow, but I think, in the end, it was not a very good game. I still think they can pull it off, maybe do a Doom 4 but somehow I feel like their approach to game design is a bit outdated.

Maybe id Software became too big in a way that dragged it down and slowed it down. Rage has all the signs of a game in development for too long: interesting tech (60 fps with great environments), obvious flaws (texture loading), and weaker than expected gameplay.

Grand Turismo 5 had these elements too: tech- (e.g. great visuals and driving model), flaws (e.g. terrible menus), and less gameplay variety than Forza.

I bet half of you didn't even play Rage. I think it's their best work since Quake 3. Cool atmosphere (Mad Max'ish), good graphics/neat tech., decent driving, pretty good AI, and some fun gadget weapons. As fun as most other FPS campaigns out there! Def. worth the $30 I picked it up for.

It took 6 years to make a game that didn't make anyone's top 10 list of 2011. Heads should indeed roll.

@Humanity said:

@whizzedoutwoz said:

@fisk0 said:

@JohnPaulVann said:

Carmack should be the one getting fired for designing the horse shit technology that powers Rage. He is no longer a top talent. Fuck him and fuck id. Unless John Romero comes back I'm done with the company's games.

+1 for the return of John Romero. He might have been crazy, but he had the great ideas and inspiration that was needed to make Id's technically competent but otherwise dull designs great. As for Carmack, I can't say - RAGE looks great, but nothing about the technology - at least not as described - sounds new or revolutionary. Streaming Megatextures aren't new ideas. They fucking used that in the previous engine (both Quake Wars and Quake 4 at least), as well as a bunch of open world-y game engines, and pre-baked light/shadowmaps have been in Id's games since Quake 1...

Yeah fuck those no talent hacks, and lol at bring back John Romero who single handedly almost bankrupted Eidos, fuck him and his triple AAA title, award winning game of the year and a 100% Romero title "Daikatana".

Yah what a ridiculous thing to say. Carmack is probably THE most talented person in the industry on the technical side of things. Maybe not so much creatively but the mega textures system is not as simple and easy to duplicate a you might think. John Romero is known for his amazing skills as a level designer for the original Doom games and then making a complete laughing stock out of himself after the release of Daikatana. Bring back that talent!

I suppose I have myself to blame for quoting JohnPaulVann when only agreeing to his last sentence, as I assume his ridiculous stance on Carmack is what you're commenting on - if not, you've constructed quite a strawman argument.

John Romero's Daikatana team primarily consisted of amateurs (not in a derogatory sense - they were literally hired directly from the Quake mod scene, with little to no experience of full scale game development or even deadlines), while Romero himself had the crazy idea that since Quake was built - from the invention of the engine to the final game - in less than a year, Daikatana could be done in half that time using already existing technology, and then took the Broussard route of changing the underlying technology halfway through the project thinking it would be easy to port over the finished assets from the Quake 1 engine to Quake 2's - which it wasn't. Romero is a person with a lot of interesting, creative ideas, but who really needs someone technologically proficient to tell him what is feasible to strive for within current technology, budget and time constraints. Id Software provided that, but it is my opinion that neither Id Software nor John Romero work well on their own - Id Software's games post Romero's departure have been great tech demos without interesting ideas (though Raven did some decent stuff with Id's old licenses and their new technology in Quake 4 and Wolfenstein), while Romero's Daikatana (can't speak for his cell phone games and that stuff) had great ideas but no-one to tell him "sorry, John, this engine and our AI routines can't handle that".

It's funny that whenever anything related to id comes up, people always start talking about John Carmack. And throwing all this negativity and hate his way.

John doesn't make games. He's said so himself, he's not a game developer. He writes code, renderers, engines... that's what he does. Tim Willits was the lead designer on RAGE. While I really liked RAGE, I'll say if you have "issues" with RAGE direct them to the person who directed the game.

Throwing all this negativity at Carmack is like blaming Epic because a studio used the UE3 engine and made Turning Point.

Yes, RAGE had a rocky release on PC... but, name a ZeniMax published game that didn't? Brink, Oblivion, Fallout 3 and New Vegas, RAGE and Skyrim... all had various issues and problems at release.

Also, the majority of the issues with RAGE on PC were in relation to out of date OpenGL binaries in AMD's drivers. A problem that has been around with AMD (ATi) since long before Doom 3 came out.

AMD have always had shoddy OpenGL support.

Also, RAGE was "new ground" for id. Developing a multiplatform title internally... is something they've never done before. And they've said it was a great learning experience. And one they won't repeat, mostly, not using the PC as the main platform. Stating that all future id titles will developed for PC first, then worked onto the consoles.

Really, RAGE had some problems... id made some mistakes. But they were quick to try and fix them and never once tried to deny it. But, because it's "id Software" and the backlash from it is blown way out of proportion.